Goblin Squad Member
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There's just so much to say and think about the Pathfinder Online MMO that it is hard to find one place to start. So exciting!
What character (and advancement) system will be used? Typically MMO's thrive on the premise that there's always another level up waiting and having 100 levels isn't out of the question. This is in direct contrast with Pathfinder, where the RPG caps out at level 20 (and realistically I don't really want to see anybody above level 12 or so given the RPG specs).
There are probably all kinds of opinions on the matter, so let my input be: please do not make sacrifices to create a "balanced" array of character options. Pathfinder is a great system because it encourages diversity and options at every step. Creating "balance" (in the sense that for example WoW classes are balanced) is, to me, anathema to the spirit of Pathfinder.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are probably all kinds of opinions on the matter, so let my input be: please do not make sacrifices to create a "balanced" array of character options. Pathfinder is a great system because it encourages diversity and options at every step. Creating "balance" (in the sense that for example WoW classes are balanced) is, to me, anathema to the spirit of Pathfinder.
You will not get your wish. Balance is of paramount concern in an MMO.
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You will not get your wish. Balance is of paramount concern in an MMO.There are probably all kinds of opinions on the matter, so let my input be: please do not make sacrifices to create a "balanced" array of character options. Pathfinder is a great system because it encourages diversity and options at every step. Creating "balance" (in the sense that for example WoW classes are balanced) is, to me, anathema to the spirit of Pathfinder.
Why?
Not trying to be contrary, I am not very familiar with MMOs and am genuinely curious as to why this is the case and whether it always needs to be.
If there isn't balance most people will choose the most powerful character builds. Simple as that, people like to win.
Problem being?
I'm hoping for something that doesnt stray too far from the tabletop rules. I'd like to see something like Troika's ToEE but understand it probably isntthe best choice for the tabletop model. Maybe for Goblinworks' next project? :P
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If there isn't balance most people will choose the most powerful character builds. Simple as that, people like to win.
Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MMOs ... but in arguably every previous edition of D&D and now Pathfinder, the general consensus has been that the classes haven’t been perfectly (or at all) balanced against each other. Yet over all editions you see a broad spread of classes being played, some are more popular than others sure, but for example you don’t see everyone or even most people playing wizards and no one playing martial classes despite it being generally held that wizard is the far superior class.
I’m wondering why it is so different for MMOs?
Goblinworks Founder
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Troika's Temple of Elemental Evil was the best PC adaptation of a pen and paper game I have ever seen. Stellar game based on a stellar module.
Not sure how it would transfer to an MMORPG though. I am hoping that PFO is not going to be your average Everquest/World of Warcraft style MMO though. I'd be far more interested in something that resembles the freedom of pen and paper a bit more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there isn't balance most people will choose the most powerful character builds. Simple as that, people like to win.
Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MMOs ... but in arguably every previous edition of D&D and now Pathfinder, the general consensus has been that the classes haven’t been perfectly (or at all) balanced against each other. Yet over all editions you see a broad spread of classes being played, some are more popular than others sure, but for example you don’t see everyone or even most people playing wizards and no one playing martial classes despite it being generally held that wizard is the far superior class.
I’m wondering why it is so different for MMOs?
Because if one choice is better than another choice, anyone looking to tackle the most difficult content in the game has a vested interest in fleshing his group out with the most effective additions possible. This, in turn, will lead to more action for those who chose the best character options, which will in turn lead to more people choosing those character options. Eventually the community will develop a consensus on the best choices, and very few players will deviate substantially from these accepted combinations, especially at the highest tiers of play.
The better balanced the game is, the less you will have to worry about disparities in build popularity.
When you're in a tabletop group, it's fine to play something suboptimal because the rest of your group does not have the luxury of picking their teammates from hundreds of other people. When you're in an MMO, you do have that luxury. And if it turns out that your chances of success go from 70% to 90% if you just trade out the guy with the lute for the guy with the battleaxe, that's some pretty good incentive.
I cannot stress this enough: Tabletop games and video games (of any kind) are very different beasts, and what works in one may not (and probably won't) work in the other. To boot, MMO games and non-MMO games are themselves very different beasts.
The healthiest approach to design is not "How can we squeeze our existing game into this MMO mold?" but rather "How can we produce the best MMO possible utilizing this IP?"
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Goblinworks Founder
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...If there isn't balance most people will choose the most powerful character builds. Simple as that, people like to win.
Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MMOs ... but in arguably every previous edition of D&D and now Pathfinder, the general consensus has been that the classes haven’t been perfectly (or at all) balanced against each other. Yet over all editions you see a broad spread of classes being played, some are more popular than others sure, but for example you don’t see everyone or even most people playing wizards and no one playing martial classes despite it being generally held that wizard is the far superior class.
I’m wondering why it is so different for MMOs?
Because if one choice is better than another choice, anyone looking to tackle the most difficult content in the game has a vested interest in fleshing his group out with the most effective additions possible. This, in turn, will lead to more action for those who chose the best character options, which will in turn lead to more people choosing those character options. Eventually the community will develop a consensus on the best choices, and very few players will deviate substantially from these accepted combinations, especially at the highest tiers of play.
The better balanced the game is, the less you will have to worry about disparities in build popularity.
When you're in a tabletop group, it's fine to play something suboptimal because the rest of your group does not have the luxury of picking their teammates from hundreds of other people. When you're in an MMO, you do have that luxury. And if it turns out that your chances of success go from 70% to 90% if you just trade out the guy with the lute for the guy with the battleaxe, that's some pretty good incentive.
I cannot stress this enough: Tabletop games and video games (of any kind) are very different beasts, and what works in one may not (and probably won't) work in the other. To
Considering PFO is currently expressing itself as a sandbox MMO with some themepark elements. I'm not sure anyone here can truly say that balance is going to be an important factor unless they are working on the project.
Are they going to follow the DikuMUD template with the fighters tanking and cleric healers being useless at anything else, or are they going to follow Arenanets lead and do away with the holy trinity once and for all? I personally dislike the tank/healer/dps style of Diku and would much rather combat not require a tank, but rather each player be able to hold his/her own. I mean, you would never see a mage tank in an MMO, but It is easily done in table top games given the right spell.
I honestly hope it isn't going to be just another regurgitated cookie cut DikuMUD, Everquest, WoW game. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that this will be a healthy mix of Pathfinder PnP with EvE online and maybe Asherons Call. Especially Asherons Call as it wasn't just race to level cap and do repetitive raids for gear.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there isn't balance most people will choose the most powerful character builds. Simple as that, people like to win.
Like I said, I’m not very familiar with MMOs ... but in arguably every previous edition of D&D and now Pathfinder, the general consensus has been that the classes haven’t been perfectly (or at all) balanced against each other. Yet over all editions you see a broad spread of classes being played, some are more popular than others sure, but for example you don’t see everyone or even most people playing wizards and no one playing martial classes despite it being generally held that wizard is the far superior class.
I’m wondering why it is so different for MMOs?
Because if one choice is better than another choice, anyone looking to tackle the most difficult content in the game has a vested interest in fleshing his group out with the most effective additions possible. This, in turn, will lead to more action for those who chose the best character options, which will in turn lead to more people choosing those character options. Eventually the community will develop a consensus on the best choices, and very few players will deviate substantially from these accepted combinations, especially at the highest tiers of play.
The better balanced the game is, the less you will have to worry about disparities in build popularity.
When you're in a tabletop group, it's fine to play something suboptimal because the rest of your group does not have the luxury of picking their teammates from hundreds of other people. When you're in an MMO, you do have that luxury. And if it turns out that your chances of success go from 70% to 90% if you just trade out the guy with the lute for the guy with the battleaxe, that's some pretty good incentive.
I cannot stress this enough: Tabletop games and video games (of any kind) are very different beasts, and what works in one may not (and probably won't) work in the other. To boot, MMO games and...
Quite right. On top of that, pen and paper, person to person, it is possible (if unlikely) to run a group of, say, nothing but Wizards. The GM has a human mind and open right of interpretation that makes such things possible that a computer with its limited ability to evaluate cannot (re: as a human I can make a dungeon geared toward four wizards, but in an MMO the dungeons are all the same, so without a tank and/or healer your screwed).
Also keep in mind that an MMO is likely to be looking at three character archetypes in the Tank (taking damage and keeping beastie attention), Healer (self explanatory), and Damage (usually per second), and from there further variations (crowd control, buffers and debuffers, etc...); as well as people being the competitive lot we trend to be will look for ways to turn this against each other. Again, strictly by the numbers with no human mitigation (re: cheating/creative die reading/call it whatever you like, really.), things are not balanced. Your basic fighter is powerful at first level, but can be killed by a few fireballs from a Sorceror later on where the sorceror can be killed by a single arrow fairly reliably at first level and sometimes at second. Again, workable with some workaround, but in a numbers only environment like an MMO... Not so much.
Admittedly, for MMO purposes, chances are the numbers will be different, although still within the rigid confines of what our computers are capable of.