Moral complexity

[Spall]

I've been drawn to the much more complex morality built into the pathfinder setting. I'm sure you could run it as a straight bad guys vs good guys game if you chose the right area, but we've done the archetypal good guys (and bad guys) thing to death. My favorite pieces of this setting are those where the 'good guys' depends on which side of the conflict you're on.

Some of this is subtext, like the utopia in Hermea where the outwardly good intentions of a clearly good creature like the gold dragon Mengkare have little holes poked in them to illustrate the complexity of the situation. Other complex situations are spelled out in clear detail, like the Eagle Knights of Andoran conquering other nations because it's for their own good (really amusing parallels to manifest destiny, imperialism, the paternalistic nature of this area of history, etc).

I am working on designing a game in Mendev, with the players participating in the Crusades. I'm trying to come up with as many situations that will force hard decisions from what will be a supposedly good group. There's the obvious stuff, like making them deal with soldiers who are fighting to keep back the hordes of the Abyss, but are clearly there for their own selfish goals. Is doing the right thing for the wrong reason a good act? Does commiting evil acts while you're attempting to do good tarnish someone irreparably?

There's the parallels with the christian crusades, which I think are very fertile ground to mine as they relate to morality. The humans vs demons angle is a little too straightforward, but throw in some native barbarian tribes that the Crusaders will wipe out or subjugate to keep from falling under the sway of demons and you've got a really complex scenario that could come close to paralleling real history.

I want to have a Chelaxian army arrive and want to assist with the Crusade effort. Their devils are the natural enemy of demons, but is this literal deal with devils worth it in the end? How far can you take 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'?

I want them to all be good-leaning, generally benevolent characters at the start at least. I'm actually having the campaign start by pressganging the players into the Crusades, but with a veneer of civility. They may have been interested in joining on their own in due time, but the decision was taken away from them. This should set the morally questionable tone I'm looking for (is being forced to serve the greater good a bad thing?).

In the end I'd like the larger conflict of the Crusades vs the Abyss to simply serve as the backdrop for what should be a much more interesting story about a handful of characters who develop unique personalities through the horrors of war.

I was hoping to get more examples of the morally complex situations that will force hard decisions on the players. I was also interested in hearing about how other official sources treat this scenario (The Crusades). I haven't read beyond the campaign setting; I am afraid if I read more official literature it might paint a different picture than I have in my head already, but if something is clearly going to be useful I'll read it. Any suggestions would be great, as I'm having a fun time getting this put together.

[Jiggy]

I liked how morality was done in the Avatar: the Last Airbender series.

On the broadest scale, you had the Fire Nation versus the rest of the world. But within that, you had good guys and bad guys at every level on both sides.

In the Fire Nation, you had certain members of the royal family who were thoroughly evil and wanted to rule the world and crush their enemies. Some of their relatives were unequivocally good, despite some of them having participated in the Nation's atrocities.

You also had commoners who were just going about life as normal - some believed the propaganda of superiority over other nations, some didn't, and some were too busy trying to feed their families to even have an opinion.

In the Fire Nation army, you had people who did it for teh evulz, people who were just following orders (but knew the war was bad), people who were just following orders (but didn't really know what was going on), and people who even deserted the army (though doing so was usually a fatal decision).

Within the other nations, you had freedom fighters, other freedom fighters who took it way too far and would attack Fire Nation civilians, people who had gotten desperate and would risk anything to end the war, secret societies who didn't want the Fire Nation to win but were more interested in their own evil schemes than in helping to end the war, people who were generally good but also had some vendettas or revenge issues against certain people, and of course (again) commoners who are just trying to get by in a rough world.

Love that show...

[Artemis Moonstar]

Like Jiggy said, Avatar: The Last Airbender is a fairly good show to watch if you wanna see something dealing with morality and war... Plus, it's a bloody awesome show as is.

In the mean time, about the only thing I can suggest, and that depends on weather or not someone plays a Paladin (Were I in this game, I totally would)... For the love of Caiden Caylien do NOT shoehorn the Paladin into a situation that will make him Fall. I know the temptation is usually too great for DMs, but do not push that button. If you feel you have to do it for story purposes, talk to the player about it first. A DM b*&**slap that demotes you to fighter without bonus feats is just not fun.

In the mean time, good luck on your game. I honestly wish my groups games would get as involved and in depth as that... God knows our DM tries but only 3 out of 7 players like in depth story line so.... The rest are coming around, slowly, a few just have to get over their "I do the most damage! I AM GOD OF THIS GAME" mentality...

[Spall]

I'll have to give avatar another go, I tried once and didn't make it past the first episode.

As long as no one tries to bring one of the current generation of functionally retarded 7int 7wis paladins to the table I'd love to have one in the group, simply to present all the same intricate challenges to a group with a clear moral compass. There would be no cause to 'trap' them, as doing the right thing will be almost completely subjective.

I do have an inquisitor in the party for sure, which got me thinking about the native tribesmen angle in much more detail. The Sarkoris people are largely subjugated by the demons, but many holdouts exist in scattered camps and tribes. The formal inquisition will have no official policy on these people (as it might amount to genocide), but simply rely on junior officers to carry out their implicit will. Investigate sources of demonic taint and enact summary judgement against entire groups who may be adjacent to this taint. Forcing a good player to sort through this convoluted mess should allow dozens of interesting encounters and could have a BBEG on both sides of the conflict. Maybe it's even a demon behind the scenes of the inquisition, subtly tipping them into a moral quagmire to corrupt more of their order.

I'd really love to have someone end up running a Holy Vindicator, as it would work really well in the setting and I just love the flavor of the class. Bleeding to death from stigmata wounds as a resource... it's something genuinely new and really interesting at the same time.

[Jiggy]

Spall wrote:

I'll have to give avatar another go, I tried once and didn't make it past the first episode.

It gets more serious and more adult-friendly as it goes. See, it started as a show aimed at young kids, but once they started realizing they had an older fanbase, they started making it a little more mature (while still keeping it technically acceptable for Nickelodian).

So if you give it a little time and get into the plot, it'll catch up with you.

[Evil Lincoln]

Stick to the historical Crusades, they'll give you everything you need for moral quandary.

I, too, have lamented that the Mendevian crusade doesn't meet the actual standards of a historical crusade (that I'm aware of). The Taldan/Qadiran conflict seems much closer in terms of ethnic/cultural conflict. The Worldwound is just too absolute an evil an enemy to parallel the real-world crusaders who were utterly sociopathic themselves. The low templar prestige class is a nice nod to the history, though.

The missing component, I think, is remission of sins. In history, taking up the cross meant that your sins were atoned for, and this in a time when sin was very much on everyone's mind.

To create a parallel in the Mendevian crusade, imagine that clerics of Iomedae would hand out atonement spells to ANYONE who would go to fight the demons.

It isn't so much the existence of demons or the atonement spell that screws this up, it's the ability to detect alignment.

Very interesting topic, I'll be lurking.

[Evil Lincoln]

I've (quite happily) pondered it for a bit.

What you need is a good faction within the crusade that is willing to do whatever it takes to drive the demons back.

Bonus points if it is the players. I've never previously considered this, but the Mendevian Crusade may be the best place to play a nuanced evil-PC campaign.

[Spall]

Evil Lincoln said wrote:

It isn't so much the existence of demons or the atonement spell that screws this up, it's the ability to detect alignment.

Well, the good news is that I don't hold detect alignment spells in very high regard, except in extreme cases (demons, devils, celestials, serial killers, etc). Its a mechanic we were forced to gut years ago when we stopped running prototypical good vs evil campaigns (on either side) as it simply doesn't work. As soon as you start dealing with alignment in realistic terms it's hard to even attempt to use:

Ok you get a vague feeling of evil about this target, like he sometimes kills housecats or maybe he robbed a few houses... or maybe he slit some guys throat in an alley, but felt bad about it and spent the next year volunteering in an orphanage... or maybe he's never done anything bad, but he's an angry guy who doesn't like anyone... or... or...

I've been watching documentaries and reading more about the real crusades for inspiration; I agree that the absolution angle needs to be reinforced. I actually lean pretty heavily on that in the introductory scene where the players get pressganged. The crusade recruiters are snatching people up, berating them about real or imagined affronts to god/humanity/whatever and offering salvation through service. Toss in a little enchantment/charm magic and the appearance of a vengeful, but forgiving gold dragon and you have a convincing recruitment channel.

I'm not too worried about having an absolutely evil enemy at the core of the conflict, as I think in some ways that works to my advantage. The crusaders can feel ever more assured that whatever they do, they are in the right because you know... demons man.

Genocide against the local population? The demons man, the demons were gonna get them anyways.

Fighting alongside a contingent of Barbazus from Cheliax? Well, at least they're lawful and they're helping us fight demons.

I actually got a few good ideas from the celestial thread a little below this one. The moral absolutism on the good end would allow for even more atrocities in the name of fighting demons.

[Evil Lincoln]

You could try The Dirty Dozen premise. Maybe in the first adventures, establish what horrible sins each PC has actually committed, way against their alignments, such that they have a real and serious motive to take up the... um... Cross?

Hey Developers, why is the Mendevian Crusade called a crusade? Ah, well, I guess it's no less overtly Catholic than the seven deadly sins. Rule of Cool.

There are other angles you can and should go for. A campaign like this shouldn't hit just one note, I'm sure you're aware. There are certainly existential issues, with the abyss being infinite and goodness being so comparatively weak. Some high ranking paladins and the like might be tempted to go all The Seventh Seal and freak out at the sheer unfairness of the setup. That might (as it does in that film) cause a paladin to fall. And what happens when a high level pally falls from grace during wartime at the worldwound? Not good things.

I recommend watching that movie actually. It will give you great fodder for things like inquisitions within the crusade doing horrible things that everyone regrets.

[Bellona]

If you haven't done so already, take a look at Paizo's own "D 3, The Demon Within" (a 3.5 module by Stephen Greer and Tim Hitchcock). It takes place in Mendev, and goes from L 11 to 13.

[Set]

Evil Lincoln wrote:

Hey Developers, why is the Mendevian Crusade called a crusade? Ah, well, I guess it's no less overtly Catholic than the seven deadly sins. Rule of Cool.

Jihad (well, the third definition, a struggle to defend one's faith) might have been more semantically correct.