I've just started a game with a couple people we play Friday Night MTG with at a local game store. This is the first RPG we (my husband and I have ever picked up, and did so because of good reviews).
My husband rolled a Pally, I rolled a Ranger. About an hour into play our group was dealing with some unfriendly npcs and while he and I were making shelter (for five hours) for the group that were sitting in the shade.
Additionally, these npcs had earlier made fun of us.
We shouted over that "we'd love it if they'd like to help us all survive by say gathering some food, so we don't starve as well as bake?" They (or the gm) responded with "no we're good", and the Pally responded under his breath, while making their shelters "that's fine enjoy starving".
Now everyone else at the table including the GM responded that this was out of character for a Pally and that he should take a hit for saying that, and might even have to atone. I personally don't think that's right because well, just because you are playing "lawful good" doesn't mean you have to be uber nice to everyone, it means you follow your code of conduct, obey the just laws, and aid others (within reason). Oh, and take down evil! It's like the police, you uphold the peace, and be reasonably courteous to everyone, give people the benefit of the doubt etc. Generally, this is how the paladin is portrayed in literature, and how I read it in the core rules.
The GM responded welcome to "Lawful Stupid" Paladins uphold the law to the point of stupidity, and often get killed in the process. Upon doing some research I figured out that generally Palys seem to be abused by pcs who wish to annoy and get away with it, or break the game, and that lawful stupid is a trope that was originally falsely attached.
Does he need to re-roll in order to play without being constantly told he has to be our group's "Jesus". Or, should he be able to play the character he designed by the rules of play, and his character's gm approved personality, of a righteous but not stupid paly?
Also, I'm a little concerned, the GM said I could have a dog... and about two seconds into play removed it... We crash landed on an island, our gear survived but the dog is no where to be seen, I'm a ranger and I can't find my dog anywhere. Additionally, earlier in the evening when I asked the GM about his roles for the adventure i.e. his motive it was "to kill you... well first to give you a good story, and second to kill you".
Help!
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Get a new DM fast.
How would you suggest we go about doing this?
advertise?
Role-playing groups can be difficult to find. Check out you're FLGS, and ask around.
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Lawful Good doesn't mean Lawful Stupid. That top-left alignment is a problem for a lot of players. It's not just neutral characters that can weigh options. Lawful Good characters aren't one-dimensional, they have ideals that they believe in; this doesn't mean that they need to be short-sighted.
Yes, LG means upholding order and virtue, but people far too often overlook the willingness of LG characters to understand the concept of "greater good." The very idea of working toward redeeming chaotic or evil characters escapes the consideration of many players playing, or playing alongside, a LG alignment.
You need to remember that your alignment doesn't play your character, your character plays its alignment. Alignments are not character archetypes, they are an oversimplification of a character's worldview. There exist a myriad of nuances within the nine alignments. My LG character could make decisions that would make another LG balk, and still remain in the light of his god.
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There are lots of threads on the forums here about alignment. You might get some milage from pointing your GM at some of them.. sounds like he has a very closed minded view and may not realize how difficult he's making it to play at his table.
Hope things work out for you, Pathfinder is a fun game and it'd be a shame if that one guy spoils it for you.
My own two cents on the Law - Chaos axis is this, btw.
Lawful = Traditionalist
Chaotic = Individualist
Neutral = Often compromises between the two philosophies
If you transpose those words into the alignment "Good, Traditionalist" you get an idea that's far more easily understood (and more importanltly, mutually agreeable on what it means) than "Lawful Good"
I've just started a game with a couple people we play Friday Night MTG with at a local game store. This is the first RPG we (my husband and I have ever picked up, and did so because of good reviews).
My husband rolled a Pally, I rolled a Ranger. About an hour into play our group was dealing with some unfriendly npcs and while he and I were making shelter (for five hours) for the group that were sitting in the shade.
Additionally, these npcs had earlier made fun of us.
We shouted over that "we'd love it if they'd like to help us all survive by say gathering some food, so we don't starve as well as bake?" They (or the gm) responded with "no we're good", and the Pally responded under his breath, while making their shelters "that's fine enjoy starving".
Now everyone else at the table including the GM responded that this was out of character for a Pally and that he should take a hit for saying that, and might even have to atone. I personally don't think that's right because well, just because you are playing "lawful good" doesn't mean you have to be uber nice to everyone, it means you follow your code of conduct, obey the just laws, and aid others (within reason). Oh, and take down evil! It's like the police, you uphold the peace, and be reasonably courteous to everyone, give people the benefit of the doubt etc. Generally, this is how the paladin is portrayed in literature, and how I read it in the core rules.
The GM responded welcome to "Lawful Stupid" Paladins uphold the law to the point of stupidity, and often get killed in the process. Upon doing some research I figured out that generally Palys seem to be abused by pcs who wish to annoy and get away with it, or break the game, and that lawful stupid is a trope that was originally falsely attached.
Two things. First off, you and your husband are 'right'. That is, there is nothing in the rules that say a Paladin has to be a nice guy, and can't get ticked off at jerks. He doesn't have to go out of his way to help them either, he just can't let them starve. One approach would be to have your husband tell the GM that he is no longer assisting the PCs with anything, as it is a lesson in humility and thankfulness for them. They will have to make their own camp, catch their own food, and so on. Have him play this up as a life lesson to the less fortunate. Have him play heavily on the 'This hurts me more than it does you' vibe. He's not punishing them because he's upset with them, he's doing it for the good of their soul, which obviously needs help. A LG Paladin has no issues with a little discipline being given to those who are obviously falling by the wayside. Better to let them go hungry a few days now than let their continued selfishness lead them to the road of evil (which would require him to hurt them a lot more!).
Second off, you've fallen in with a group that is very cookie cutter in their approach to the game. That's not necessarily a bad thing, it makes it very easy for new players (everything is black and white in the game, which means your moral choices are a lot easier). However, it also means that if you want some flavor or so flexibility, you're in the wrong group. I'd stick it out a bit, but if the above doesn't swing it with the GM, I'd tell your husband to make a NG martial artist who believes in beating manners into people with his fists (either the monk archetype, or a fighter and give him Improved Unarmed Strike) and let him beat the npcs into politeness if he chooses to. :)
As to finding another group, that might be a better alternative if you can't make headway with the current group. Your local gaming store should have some contacts (either a list of games/players, or bulletin board). Alternately, you can try some of the following websites which list gamers by area :
Pen & Paper Games
Meetup (often has meetup entries by city)
Paizo has a Gamer Connection board for finding games and players
Your local game store might have web site with forums, you can post in those if they have them. Alternately, you can check Yahoo Groups for RPG groups in your area. A lot of cities and states have a Yahoo Group maintained by local gamers. For example, down here in Texas there's Texas D&D Group.
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It is about time someone played a Paladin that wasn't cookie cutter, that had flaws and a personality.
Some possible characters to model a Paladin's personality on that I reckon would be fun:
Robocop - No emotion, no grey areas
The Tick - Over the top stupid, corny sayings, completely dedicated
Eliot Ness - Incorruptible, steadfast, heavy drinker, divorced
A couple of harsh words (pretty soft really) hardly require atonement. Unfortunately its the DM and other players who are at fault. When they hear Paladin they just think about how to trip the poor player up.
I don't think the tick would recognize the lawful alignment if it came in the form of a schoolhouse rock video: its too advanced for him.
I like Alice Malvin from the Anime Pumpkin Scissors. While not a fantasy setting her status as a young Noble in a war ravaged country, her own innate senses of justice, and righteous youth leads her into all kimds of messes. You have to watch the whole series (luckly for US based folks it is on Hulu free) to really understand the complexity of character as more then just an over zealous do-gooder. She opposes injustice, general stupidity, and selfishness with about equal zeal.
One example, episode 3 "For That Is a Precious Thing" is similar to the "we don't need no, food let the mother f****** starve" situation of the OP was where the Pumpkin Scissors had to recrute a local village to help dig out a collapsed tunnel. The village had been stiffed once by the government and wouldn't do it. Even after she busted out the "I'm a super noble" card to insure payment, they still said no. So she set off to dig the tunnel herself after tongue lashing all the gathered villagers. Events ensue and things end up better. Funny enough, this is also the episode where she goes on a quasi-hunger strike to live like the peasants. She also stops taking a carriage to work (which remains true for the rest of the series).
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I would point out that Intellligce is about the only stat a Paladin does not actually need mechanically. You can have a Paladin who's absolutely stupid, not dirt stupid, 3 Int is higher then that. I'd play it more like a walking force of justice. It just does thing because that's what it is. There is little comment, explanation, or thought involved. You know you done good when it smiles at you. You know you done bad when it frowns at you. You'll need to keep fixing behaviors until it stops frowning because it has no way of articulating why what your doing is worng, it just knows that you are.
I need to go watch the Tick again. He always seemed more Chaotic Good then Lawful. Although he never did waver from his sense of justice, even if property damage was the inevitable byproduct.
For the rare occasion that I played a paladin, I've played him like Jedi. (Play him like Obi-Wan...)
What area are you and your husband playing? Maybe you can find gamers that'll take you in right here, on the messageboards.
Ultradan
Also, I'm a little concerned, the GM said I could have a dog... and about two seconds into play removed it... We crash landed on an island, our gear survived but the dog is no where to be seen, I'm a ranger and I can't find my dog anywhere. Additionally, earlier in the evening when I asked the GM about his roles for the adventure i.e. his motive it was "to kill you... well first to give you a good story, and second to kill you".
I would guess that your GM was joking here, but if it seemed to you that he wasn't you probably want to get out. A GM who is out to kill the PCs is not going to be any fun, especially if you are new to the game. You'll just end up frustrated. As for how to find a group, I found my current group on meetup.com. It took a little while, but I'm glad I went that route cause these guys have been great so far.
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This kind of GMing is what happens, when parents let their kids grow up without reading them bedtime stories for moral guidance.
Here's the Original Poster's situation, in a nutshell, as described several centuries ago.
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Also, I'm a little concerned, the GM said I could have a dog... and about two seconds into play removed it... We crash landed on an island, our gear survived but the dog is no where to be seen, I'm a ranger and I can't find my dog anywhere.
If the dog is the Animal Companion of your Ranger, then you will likely find him when your Ranger is 4th-level (ie, at the end of Smuggler's Shiv which is very likely the module described here) and gets the Animal Companion class feature.
Additionally, earlier in the evening when I asked the GM about his roles for the adventure i.e. his motive it was "to kill you... well first to give you a good story, and second to kill you".
In a way, that second role/motive is true of all GM, as they also impersonate the hostile NPCs who are out to kill the PCs. That does not mean that the GM will constantly be on the lookout for ways to kill the PCs.
I must say though, that I am a bit suspicious of the OP, as I find the first post to reflect a very good grasp of RPG's vernacular (and DnD/PFRPG in particular), as exemplified, in my opinion, by the use of the "Pally" expression which I am not used to read in noobs' posts.
The description of a caricatural situation and a profile with only 2 posts smack of troll to me. I might be wrong though ;-)
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I seemed to have touched a nerve with The Tick!
I was trying to think of a hero who was stupid, his mission for justice was paramount regardless of collateral damage, was righteous, said corny lines etc etc (a bit of an a-hole really, but comic none the less). Maybe the Tick wasn't perfect choice but I always thought anarchy was a by-product of his do gooding, not part of the aim.
Any in case, there should be room for lots of paladin personality types, not just the Saint.
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I must say though, that I am a bit suspicious of the OP, as I find the first post to reflect a very good grasp of RPG's vernacular (and DnD/PFRPG in particular), as exemplified, in my opinion, by the use of the "Pally" expression which I am not used to read in noobs' posts.
The description of a caricatural situation and a profile with only 2 posts smack of troll to me. I might be wrong though ;-)
The diminutive "pally" is not unique to PFRPG or d20 in-general. I've seen the term used as short for paladin in every game that I've played where paladins where present.
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^ What Sloanzilla said.
To be fair with the DM, we have seen way worst examples of bad groups and bad DMing on these forums to first see how it turns out before searching for another game already. The dog could have been a plot hook or a tragic accident you have no way to know about, and the "kill you" thing, a joke.
It depends on the context. A paladin could do the "fine, then you'll starve" thing, but he would probably decide at some point to try redemption instead of punishment, like asking the NPCs for compensation which would go to the Church, or simply help them to show some kind of moral example. Loyal Stupid does stupid things. Loyal Good does chivalrous things, but isn't afraid to act when words and deeds are not enough. Right there, helping the NPCs was almost obligatory IMHO, this is just a question of "how to do it, and what to ask them in exchange".
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I'm going to post some links of people who sort-of get what it means to be a paladin, only sort of, because most of the actions described, while scary, and not nice by any stretch of the imagination, would not cause the paladin to fall.
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Paladin#Dragonladieshere_tells_it_like_it_is
The paladin is held to their code, unless the one in control of their power decides that they should lose their power, typically this is because they've gone too far.
Here's another story that shows what it takes to fall as a paladin, though it does take a long time, it's still highly entertaining: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html
The paladin who does manage to screw up so bad she falls first appears here:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0120.html
This is where she falls:http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html
Anyone who subscribes to the concept of lawful stupid should never be allowed to run a game of Pathfinder. Paladins are allowed to be incredibly violent toward their enemies, which basically means that torture is okay, but only if the target is evil or neutral, and in the name of a much greater good.
I've just started a game with a couple people we play Friday Night MTG with at a local game store. This is the first RPG we (my husband and I have ever picked up, and did so because of good reviews).
My husband rolled a Pally, I rolled a Ranger. About an hour into play our group was dealing with some unfriendly npcs and while he and I were making shelter (for five hours) for the group that were sitting in the shade.
Is that five hours of real world playing time or five hours of in-game time? Playing out making shelter for five hours of playing time doesn't really sound like a very good introduction to gaming.
Additionally, these npcs had earlier made fun of us.
We shouted over that "we'd love it if they'd like to help us all survive by say gathering some food, so we don't starve as well as bake?" They (or the gm) responded with "no we're good", and the Pally responded under his breath, while making their shelters "that's fine enjoy starving".
Now everyone else at the table including the GM responded that this was out of character for a Pally and that he should take a hit for saying that, and might even have to atone.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you joined a group that has already been playing together, am I right? Maybe you're all starting a new campaign together, but you two are the new players in an existing group. This kind of behavior is symptomatic of some gaming groups I've seen and many more that I've heard about. They tend to put the newbies through a lot of grief. It's not a good thing, and it turns a lot of potential gamers off of gaming forever, or at least for a long time. See the many other threads on bad games here on the boards.
Did you start at the same level as the rest of the party? How big is the group? What are the age ranges of the other players and yourselves? Another problem is the five hours you mentioned earlier. If your NPCs were unfriendly, and the other players were getting hostile toward your characters, it's possible that people were just bored with the game and were trying to make something happen.
The fact that the GM and the other players at the table were calling for your paladin to have to atone (and I'm guessing "Atonement" isn't readily available in your setting) for muttering "Fine, starve," makes me feel that maybe the GM is being influenced by one or more of the players with regard to his rulings. Were the players supporting the GM's decision, or did one of the other player suggest it first?
I personally don't think that's right
There are nearly as many interpretations of the paladin's code of conduct as there are players. But a fall from grace for a remark muttered toward people being openly scornful to the paladin is among the more extreme.
The GM responded welcome to "Lawful Stupid" ...
Or, should he be able to play the character he designed by the rules of play, and his character's gm approved personality, of a righteous but not stupid paly?
Also, I'm a little concerned, the GM said I could have a dog... and about two seconds into play removed it... We crash landed on an island, our gear survived but the dog is no where to be seen, I'm a ranger and I can't find my dog anywhere.
Allowing the paladin then slapping him down for the slightest step away from martyrdom... allowing the dog then taking it away... again I see the "pile on the newbies" syndrome going on, but I also see a GM who lives by the adage "The GM giveth, and the GM taketh away." In fact, I'd suspect that he said that out loud at the game. The statement is true, for obvious reasons: you have nothing but that which is given in the game by the GM. But a GM who lets you have things only to take them away at his capricious whim is not being fair to the players, and is unintentionally distancing his players from the game. If they can't have any expectation that what they find has some permanence in the game, then what does it really matter what you find or create? Losing items and companions happens in even the best of games, but unless the GM is planning on making a story point around the disappearance of the dog, he's just being mean.
Additionally, earlier in the evening when I asked the GM about his roles for the adventure i.e. his motive it was "to kill you... well first to give you a good story, and second to kill you".
In a way, he's correct. The GM is playing characters in the story that DO want to kill you. And it's possible (although not necessarily the case, given what else you've said) that he feels that saying that gives the players a healthy sense of tension. But because of the other things you describe, it sounds more like he's playing out a power trip, and talking to him about these issues won't really get you anywhere. But you never know. He may surprise you.
The point of the game is to have fun, and if it isn't fun, you have no obligation to keep playing. It's sad that the first adventure you had in the game was so unpleasant, but as others have said, there are other resources for finding a good game. And if all else fails, you have two players in your own household. Pick up the Pathfinder Beginner Box and run games for each other. One of you may find you enjoy it more, and you can have other people join when you feel comfortable enough with the system.
The GM responded welcome to "Lawful Stupid" Paladins uphold the law to the point of stupidity, and often get killed in the process. Upon doing some research I figured out that generally Palys seem to be abused by pcs who wish to annoy and get away with it, or break the game, and that lawful stupid is a trope that was originally falsely attached.
Lawful Good is hardly, necessarily Lawful Stupid. Now, the Paladins described in Pathfinder are generally considered to be a cut above the usual historical examples (or at least, the very best they could hope to be), if only because the presence of the Gods and the Divine is more apparent in the usual Pathfinder Worlds. That said, there's no rules saying your Pathfinder can't make glib comments, or even swear, if he doesn't feel like it.
In fact, the rules only specifically state the Paladin:
1) never commit an "evil act"- let's restrict this to sadistic acts like murder, or premeditated murder
2)"respect legitimate authority"- that's authority figures recognized by the Paladin's particular order, obey their own laws and have a legitimate claim to whatever position they hold
3)"Act with honor"-this one's a little more vague, but it does specifically prohibit 'lying', 'cheating', 'using poison', so we can logically extend that to not using deceitful means or tactics to achieve ends.
4)"Help those in need"- this one has an interesting little caveat, "provided they do not use that help for chaotic or evil needs", which might specifically apply to your situation. Afterall, your 'hostile' npcs were hardly acting lawfully, or goodly themselves.
5)"Punish those who harm or threaten innocents"- This is the big one. It's basically the elastic clause for the Paladin's Code, and allows him or her a great deal of flexibility. So long as the Paladin doesn't violate any of the other laws of the code, he or she has free reign to take whatever steps are necessary to "punish" anyone they see, or hear, or even hear tell of "threaten innocents". I had a player once who played a Paladin, and he was a righteous, holy terror; a scourge against not just evil doers, but anyone vaguely associated with evil doers. Straight up, hard core, utilitarian values, he could justify just about anything short of burning down an orphanage or kicking puppies for "the greater good" and "the will of the light".
The GM responded welcome to "Lawful Stupid"
All I am going to say is if I were the paladin, the moment my GM said those words to me I would have made it my duty in life to make him regret them. If I saw a poor homeless child stealing food I would instantly cut the child down and simply use the excuse that what he did was wrong and proceed to remind the GM of the Lawful Stupid statement. If a party member does something that could be perceived as evil or chaotic then I would turn on him/her. But then again thats me and I can be quite spiteful and a bit of an ass when I want to be.
~Aod43254
How would you suggest we go about doing this?
I suggest murdering the current one. People like him give roleplayers a bad name.
I can provide you with alibis.
I'm also often "this" close to murdering people who play the bad old stereotypes - obnoxious paladins that are less lawful good and more lawful stuckup jerk that fights things that happen to register as evil to his detect evil; obnoxious elves that go all-out racist against other races for being inferior; obnoxious dwarves that are all-out racist and insist everything without a beard is bad and have names consisting of nothing but "axe", "hammer", various metals, various stones, and the bad things they do to orcs. There are others, but those are the worst offenders.
As soon as I become supreme ruler of earth, I'll round them all up and have them put to death. I'll televise it to provide entertaining for the masses.
-obnoxious dwarves that are all-out racist and insist everything without a beard is bad and have names consisting of nothing but "axe", "hammer", various metals, various stones,-
.... Sadly, this IS my Dwarf Character..
Huckett Ironmace!(still fun to play XD)
As far as dealing with your group- .. It just seems to be you have a 'broken' group... Which can be alright if you know all the players- and are just playing to pass the time- but if your looking for some fun- it can become annoying quickly.
I'd suggest looking for a new group (if possible)- or quickly learn how to 'deal' with the other players and DM.
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First, condolences on having a rotten first experience. And people wonder why the player base is shrinking....
Second, don't give up. Ditch that group, yes, but please don't let them turn the two of you off the game as a whole. There are many other gamers out there, and many venues through which to get a game going both online and off.
Third, if you must speak with that GM again, tell him exactly why you two are unhappy with his or his group's playstyle. And give him this thread's url!
and just in case that last bit pans out:
Hey, GM/group mentioned in the OP! Thanks for helping to kill our hobby!
srsly though OP, drop that group like it's hot.
Get a new DM fast.
+1
This guys sucks.A paladin has to actually DO something bad to need to atone. Just griping doesn't count. The most saintly people on the planet are allowed to occasionally gripe.
And the dog thing. And the killing thing. This guy stinks.
Allow me to add my voice to the growing choir of people who encourage you not to let these jerks discourage you. Trust me, one day soon you will be sitting around a table with a good group, run by a good GM, laughing at this bad experience.
Lots of ways to find a new group. Put a group or GM wanted sign up on the game store's bulletin board. Search online. Ask the people who run the store, etc.
And remember my motto as a GM of 31 years: "It is not the GM's job to kill the PCs. It is the GM's job to fairly run the NPCs who wish to kill the PCs."
There's a huge difference.
What god does the paladin worship?
Bet your ass a paladin of erastil would laugh at the lazy while dieing if need be to help those that try to do for themselves. Erastil is all about the ant and the grasshopper.
Iomedae wouldn't have any of that nonsense either. I imagine the conversation would go "Fall? What for? Not taking lip from others? Why would I make them fearless, if I wanted them to take lip from others? Fear is a good thing, but I want them to be able to stand their ground when they must, this is one such situation. Now, I should admonish him for not walloping that lazy-butt, however I can see where it would be a complete waste of time."
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Like everyone else has said, talk to the DM about it and if things don't change, drop him. Based on the "Friday Night MTG" bit, I'm pretty sure I know what local gaming store this is and I'm pretty sure they do Pathfinder Society games that might be useful while looking for another group. If not, the event coordinator is a friend of mine (though this is based on my assumption on which gaming store this is) and I'm sure he could coordinate some society events.