Of course training a drum corps requires less practice, less specific training and less specific individuals that can actually use magic.
Also if they die on the battle field you've loss less resources too.
A drummer and a magic signaler would serve different roles. A magic signal would be specific, or an emergency alert. Drums wouls control blocks of infantry. Embeding an adept into a scout group would be appropriate.
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I did not say you hate fighters(and other cut/stab types). Only that you want to apply real world rules to them that you do not apply to casters.A golem IS made of hard stone, from the bestiary: A stone golem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. It weighs 2000 lbs when done. The Stone Golem is so tough you need adamantine to beat its DR. It is tougher than...
Technically anything with hardness also needs an adamantine weapon to beat its DR so that argument is irrelevant.
Anyway this is getting way off track. I expressed distaste in the idea purely because it was thematically inappropriate and a blatant abuse of the rules (i.e. no rules for getting tired after strenuous labor even though such rules exist for things like forced marching, no rules for ruining a weapon after severe prolonged abuse even though their are sunder rules, therefore I can be john henry at level 1 and an even better john henry at level 6.) Reality and its application doesn't mean squat in light of these two things. I've expressed what I'd find acceptable and I've been ignored because I won't accept the most cartoonish option. Besides it's already been pointed out why the idea is stupid and ways to stop it if it became a valid tactic. So really at this point I'm leaving that argument because all you're doing now is criticizing my GMing(and many others) when you are neither a player of mine nor someone whose advice I asked for.
Anyway...
RE: Invisible paratroopers.
My question is how do you get them at the 3000ft mark to begin with?
Also, it's generally a bad idea to paratroop your soldiers directly into a city. They tend to get spread out over a wide area without any good means of controlling their decent midair. So they'll land in bad places and in the maze of an unfamiliar city will have great difficulty regrouping. The strategy is much more effective when you have long range airborne capability so you can send armies over the frontlines and make surprise attacks on fortifications, small towns, and key positions (bridges and such).
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I would train my troops for high altitude low feather fall. Also, invisibility. Drop from 3000ft or so and drop until you pass the top of the tower. Then hit feather fall with a prepared action. A few guys splat, a few do it too early and get shot. The ones who make it land invisible and charge to capture the gate house.
Of course my force roof might still stop them but not everyone can afford those.
I wouldn't like to gamble my life with drinking my potion at the right height after a 3.000 ft drop and training them will be costly in both potions and lives, but it is doable.
The invisibility potion/item is another 300 gp for each guy.The defence is fairly simple and useful against most flying creatures.
The defender build a net of barbed wires above all the city/structure, suspended from the city towers and highest structures, so approximately 60' above the ground and 15-20' below the towers tops.
He make each square about a yard wide. Sunlight and rain will pass through, feather falling paratroopers and/or medium sized or larger flying creatures using wings will almost certainly get snagged.
Naturally there is a counter to this tactic too. Artillery fire to open holes in the net. Trebuchets or catapults will work fine for that.
I did not say you hate fighters(and other cut/stab types). Only that you want to apply real world rules to them that you do not apply to casters.
A golem IS made of hard stone, from the bestiary: A stone golem's body is chiseled from a single block of hard stone, such as granite, weighing at least 3,000 pounds. The stone must be of exceptional quality, and costs 5,000 gp. It weighs 2000 lbs when done. The Stone Golem is so tough you need adamantine to beat its DR. It is tougher than the stone as it has a 10 DR vs 8 hardness and you need adamantine to beat the DR.
As far as destroying the stone wall, if you are trying to imagine the fighter reducing the entire 5x5 section to dust then you are being inconsistent in your principle. Applying the same rule as the Stone Golem then fighter just has to destroy enough to make that section fall down.
There is an inconsistency within the limitations of the rules of pathfinder to simulate. It is not however inconsistent when you want to keep a level of believability. If I make a call that you cannot and could not destroy a castle wall with a sword (though I allow it with Adamantine weapons), that decision is informed through common sense, and a desire to make the world believable.
Allowing the fighter to break the wall with a sword or an axe (castle stone walls) is a foolish consistency. And that is the Hobgoblin of little minds. (not calling your mind little, Just giving props to RWE)
I would have no trouble with a decent level fighter mining through a stone wall with a weapon as long as the player of said fighter could answer the logistical problems involved.
Imagine a miner at a rock face with a pick, simple analogy however the fighter is more powerful. However, the fighter still needs to create a hole big enough not only for him but big enough to use his pick or he will need the squeeze into his own tunnel, he needs a way to move the rubble of his passing as even the most powerful fighter won't turn the stone to dust with his sword, he needs to brace his tunnel at certain points to prevent collapse. This all results in needing a fighter with a fair bit of knowledge engineering and a team of people to clear up after him and fetch him things(wood beams, nails), thats not to mention this fighter needs defending from attack while he mines as will his team of helpers.
Historically wall yunnelling started a few hundred yards out and they tried to undermind rather than penetrate the walls, doing this they could make a section collapse and create a breach of a decent size rather than a 5ft wide death trap. It was also easier to defend with earthworks and manpower.
Like i said, i have no problem with an extrahuman miner doing all of this in half a day or even a few hours but there are still things that they will have to deal with outside of system mechanics. Even invoking the least amount of realism they still need to clear rubble and be defended.
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A few points:
1) He is not tunneling through the wall. This fighter is hitting the wall until it is broken enough to fall down.
2)Applying believablility is a foolish argument in a fantasy game. Even at 6th level a character can do things of real world legend and myth. Once you start asking for believability you might as well question everything in the rules.
3) Your own logical inconsistencies foil your argument. The stone golem is made of stone just as hard as the castle walls. The stone golem even tries to avoid blows. Yet you are ok with the idea of a fighter with a normal sword beating it down but not ok with the same fighter beating down an immobile wall. A monk can beat down a stone golem with his fists (granted a high level monk) but god forbid he use those awesome fists to knock down a stone wall? The hobgoblin of little minds here is refusing to be consistent.
4) A 6th level rogue with an 18 dex can break the world record for long jump. A record which has stood for 20 years (29.4 feet). Well that is not believable, better not allow it. And that monk who gets +8 for his speed he better not even think about it.
5)Monks, hows that for unbelievability. These guys run super fast because they can do karate. That makes no sense. Better not allow that.
Believability is a weak argument. PCs are special. The game treats them as special. How do we know that? The game has gimped classes specially for NPCs. The normal people of the world don't get to play with the cool toys. One of those cool toys is being a bad ass fighter who can beat walls down with a plain old sword.
I like the "barbed wire roof" idea. It solves a lot of problems actually. If it was created properly it could even prevent certain siege weaponry from working. Giant stones would roll off the roof and land outside the walls (or perhaps land somewhere useful to the caste). I can see this over important structures, like a castle and/or cathedrals, but probably not an entire sprawling city.
Further if you have a few mages and prep time you could
Magically harden it
Make it invisible + Permanent (expensive, but not a bad idea)
Animate it +Permanent (also expensive, but invisible animated barbed wire would be kind of a badass devensive system for flying and if needed ground troops)
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If they want it to be more robust they can make arched bars that cover the entire open area. Add some spikes and barbs to those. You could get fancy and have the middle ones be on rails so they can be parted to let flying forces in and out. Then they are put back in place with pins to keep enemy forces from getting in.
I like the "barbed wire roof" idea. It solves a lot of problems actually. If it was created properly it could even prevent certain siege weaponry from working. Giant stones would roll off the roof and land outside the walls (or perhaps land somewhere useful to the caste). I can see this over important structures, like a castle and/or cathedrals, but probably not an entire sprawling city.
Further if you have a few mages and prep time you could
Magically harden it
Make it invisible + Permanent (expensive, but not a bad idea)
Animate it +Permanent (also expensive, but invisible animated barbed wire would be kind of a badass devensive system for flying and if needed ground troops)
It would only work on smaller fortifications. Not so good on city defense.
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If they want it to be more robust they can make arched bars that cover the entire open area. Add some spikes and barbs to those. You could get fancy and have the middle ones be on rails so they can be parted to let flying forces in and out. Then they are put back in place with pins to keep enemy forces from getting in.
Plus they could be stylized so that they add to the aesthetic of the city. Visitors would marvel at the rulers artistic nature.
If I were a mage in a city (like in kingmaker or something) I would research a spell based off of wall of iron that would allow me to make big metal Lattice structures. Perhaps a lengthy ritual with the aid of several other spellcasters culminating in the formation of this massive defensive structure.
Of course I still think animating them is brilliant. Perhaps comparatively "small" (as in Huge sized) spider-like animated objects could patrol the metal spiderweb protecting the city. They could have saddles for fleshy guardsmen.
edit; OHH Put gunslingers or Balista on the back of the mechanospiders! Ok, I'm getting increasingly fantastic, but I'm loving the visuals.
It would only work on smaller fortifications. Not so good on city defense.I like the "barbed wire roof" idea. It solves a lot of problems actually. If it was created properly it could even prevent certain siege weaponry from working. Giant stones would roll off the roof and land outside the walls (or perhaps land somewhere useful to the caste). I can see this over important structures, like a castle and/or cathedrals, but probably not an entire sprawling city.
Further if you have a few mages and prep time you could
Magically harden it
Make it invisible + Permanent (expensive, but not a bad idea)
Animate it +Permanent (also expensive, but invisible animated barbed wire would be kind of a badass devensive system for flying and if needed ground troops)
Note the bolded portion. ;-)
I am a christian*bro-fists for a fellow brother!* (also, I give out free hugs if you're into that sort of thing)
*brofist*
Also, hugs are good. I like hugs. :P
As for the discussion of the Fighter, I reiterate, Fighter's can't have nice things. They are expected to take on creatures whose flesh is harder than steel, fight monsters of nightmares born of hellfire and the evil of the ages, and yet anytime they do something that seems a bit out of line with reality, somebody cries foul.
Let me break your minds a bit more, 'cause it's fun. A high level Fighter can survive a round or two fully submerged in in molten magma. They can fall at terminal velocity and get up to punch a goblin out cold around 10th level. A high level Fighter can survive getting pinned inside a dragon's mouth and survive a direct full-furnace blast from a breath weapon that can slag a room full of full plate in 3 seconds flat.
Because, they're not following the rules of mortals. Yes, a 6th level Fighter can smash his way a stone wall, just as easily as he can smash his way through an iron golem, if the iron golem was standing still and letting him pound him. Easier in fact, because the iron golem is much harder than even normal steel, and he's smashing rocks. Go-go-super-Fighter.
Of course, as everyone has pointed out, this isn't exactly a super awesome strategy. A bunch of 1st level warriors in a covered ram would be far more effective. There are also tons of issues with carving the wall down on your own. Firstly, you will die. No, seriously. You're a sitting duck while you're carving the wall. Did someone order some alchemist fire? 20d6 damage now, 20d6 damage on round 2. Too bad you never got to break through the first 5ft section...
The wonderful thing about fantasy combat is it's fantastic. Sieges would be far, far different than in medieval combat. Catapults would be great, but catapults loaded with huge earth elementals would be greater. Air raiders with feather fall, burrowing armored war badgers creating grand tunnels beneath the main walls, and hidden moats filled with water and gelatinous cubes concealed by silent images.
Storms conjured against enemies, call lightning being unleashed by a circle of druids while they chain-summon a herd of aurochs and dinosaurs to charge forward while knights riding dire bats swoop down with lance and bow, to focus-fire on anyone who looks important.
This...is...waaaaaar! Muahahaha.
So I just wrote up something for a book I'm working on that will meet with approval from the military nuts here. It jsut occured to me how easy it can be in D&D to obtain rust, aluminum, and a portable source hot enough to ignite it.
Have fun with that thought.
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73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.
Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.
I like the idea of an item that has a "castle Pattern" programmed in it. WHen you place it it starts creating that pattern, via create and fabricate spells until the castle is complete. Then you remove the item when it's finished and do it again. SInce the spells are instant it's a permanent structure.
On a similar note have that pattern be a small hut and the PC's can use that to camp. Leaving hundreds of them across the world.
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
It's not for everyone's use. Just the PC's.
P.S. Economy, Eschmonomy
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^It's not for everyone's use. Just the PC's.
P.S. Economy, Eschmonomy
Well we're discussing terms as they concern an army. A PC can get away with annihilating the world for all the game cares. A nation has to worry about keeping people employed, fed, and happy.
73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
Fabricate is a terrible spell. For minerals (IE, stone or metal) it only effects 1 cubic foot per level. And it doesn't create any material, just rearranges it. Stone Shape is far superior, and lower level.
Of course, a high level caster with a magic item of unlimited polymorph any object and unlimited wall of stone can build the Great Pyramid of Giza in 8 hours.
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.
It is true. The industrial revolution destroyed our economy. Faster manufacturing times leads to anarchy!
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.It is true. The industrial revolution destroyed our economy. Faster manufacturing times leads to anarchy!
Think about what you say before hitting post please. The industrial revolution still worked on the backs of labor. It merely allowed labor to produce things more efficiently with relatively little training and it still required a ton of it to function properly..
A magic item takes one guy to do all the work. Depending on the item itself that one guy is usually a spellcaster not a mason or common laborer. That's a lot of unemployed people you have to find jobs for.
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
Economy? Haw, haw, haw. That's funny. I like thinking and talking about D&D economics, but I don't agree with waving the white flag and just hoping people would use magic for what it would be used for. Fantastic settings have fantastic economies. Stone and Iron? Pretty cheap, all things considered. Why? Because they're pretty easy to get thanks to magic.
Would castles be easy to build, or at least small forts? Probably so, with a good wizard at your side. Or a druid. Thing is, everyone's already been noting that simple stone or even iron walls will not a defensible castle make in D&D. There's a lot more to it than that.
I mean, think about it. With anyone as high as just 5th level, we can create a device that feeds the poor more or less endlessly. We can make rocks that pour out water when you strike them with stones (go-go Moses reference) at CL 3rd. A decanter of endless water or two can support an entire community, and entire water works can exist and thrive due to this. Water filtration systems can be set up to purify and clean stuff as it passes through pipes, more effectively than anything we have today.
Do we just bend over and wave our white flags? Nay, I tell you nay! We look at what we have and we think about it! Then we realize that it would have an economy. Probably a believable on, in the context of the world it exists in. Trying to have an economy that models our world in a place with magic is more devastating to verisimilitude than wizards popping castles out of thin air.
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^Economy? Haw, haw, haw. That's funny. I like thinking and talking about D&D economics, but I don't agree with waving the white flag and just hoping people would use magic for what it would be used for. Fantastic settings have fantastic economies. Stone and Iron? Pretty cheap, all things considered. Why? Because they're pretty easy to get thanks to magic.
Would castles be easy to build, or at least small forts? Probably so, with a good wizard at your side. Or a druid. Thing is, everyone's already been noting that simple stone or even iron walls will not a defensible castle make in D&D. There's a lot more to it than that.
I mean, think about it. With anyone as high as just 5th level, we can create a device that feeds the poor more or less endlessly. We can make rocks that pour out water when you strike them with stones (go-go Moses reference) at CL 3rd. A decanter of endless water or two can support an entire community, and entire water works can exist and thrive due to this. Water filtration systems can be set up to purify and clean stuff as it passes through pipes, more effectively than anything we have today.
Do we just bend over and wave our white flags? Nay, I tell you nay! We look at what we have and we think about it! Then we realize that it would have an economy. Probably a believable on, in the context of the world it exists in. Trying to have an economy that models our world in a place with magic is more devastating to verisimilitude than wizards popping castles out of thin air.
I think you forgot the point where it was discussed that 5th+ characters would be relatively rare.
The economy is a discussion for another thread but I think it bears thinking that when your world is populated by an elite number of 5th+ characters and millions upon millions more of characters that have commoner levels and you start popping food, buildings, furniture, and other such items into existence with magic you either have to solve the problem of employing those people or be ready for the inevitable civil unrest.
And to take it further you have to solve the issue of angering certain gods who witness as you ruin their portfolios completely (I'm looking at Erastil here).
But anywa that's a discussion for another thread. Obviously an item of such power would be extremely valuable in a military sense but likely very destructive in an economic and political sense without a great deal of care in its use.
Well we're discussing terms as they concern an army. A PC can get away with annihilating the world for all the game cares. A nation has to worry about keeping people employed, fed, and happy.That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^It's not for everyone's use. Just the PC's.
P.S. Economy, Eschmonomy
Hence the bolded part.
The P.S. was in jest.
You know all this makes me really want to do is pathfinderize Eberron? It did solve some of these issues by creating Magewrights and making the economy more "industrial magic" rather than straightforward "perfect" magic.
Well we're discussing terms as they concern an army. A PC can get away with annihilating the world for all the game cares. A nation has to worry about keeping people employed, fed, and happy.That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^It's not for everyone's use. Just the PC's.
P.S. Economy, Eschmonomy
Hence the bolded part.
The P.S. was in jest.
Unfortunately that's not the way Ashiel would use it which is what I'm addressing. I'm just pointing out the issues in its use so that they might be addressed and putting forth ideas.
I for one have always been the mind that wizards stay out of such matters because they don't want to solve mundane peoples problems, they'd rather be doing more magic. Mundane peoples problems are always more complicated than they appear. Easier to just try and untie the conundrum of Frizzlebeards Quantum Planar theory of symmetrical elemental inhabitation.
A few points:
1) He is not tunneling through the wall. This fighter is hitting the wall until it is broken enough to fall down.
2)Applying believablility is a foolish argument in a fantasy game. Even at 6th level a character can do things of real world legend and myth. Once you start asking for believability you might as well question everything in the rules.
3) Your own logical inconsistencies foil your argument. The stone golem is made of stone just as hard as the castle walls. The stone golem even tries to avoid blows. Yet you are ok with the idea of a fighter with a normal sword beating it down but not ok with the same fighter beating down an immobile wall. A monk can beat down a stone golem with his fists (granted a high level monk) but god forbid he use those awesome fists to knock down a stone wall? The hobgoblin of little minds here is refusing to be consistent.
4) A 6th level rogue with an 18 dex can break the world record for long jump. A record which has stood for 20 years (29.4 feet). Well that is not believable, better not allow it. And that monk who gets +8 for his speed he better not even think about it.
5)Monks, hows that for unbelievability. These guys run super fast because they can do karate. That makes no sense. Better not allow that.
Believability is a weak argument. PCs are special. The game treats them as special. How do we know that? The game has gimped classes specially for NPCs. The normal people of the world don't get to play with the cool toys. One of those cool toys is being a bad ass fighter who can beat walls down with a plain old sword.
Beleivability is a fantastic argument actually. No one ever beats me on it. See the rogue, monk, and fighter they are pretty special. Within the rules of the class it describes just how special they are. The problem is with the weapon.
You want a fighter sapper to go after the walls? No problem. You want a swordsman? Not going to happen. EVER.
The reason I am OK with a fighter beating down a stone golem, is the same reason, raiders could destroy solid stone statues, but still could not breach a castle wall. The Stone Golem is not engineered like castle walls.
Your mistaking my point. There is a world of simulation the rules can handle. The rules were not meant to handle castle walls, so beleivability works well. The break DC's at least in 3rd edition meant you broke the door DOWN. Not shattered the door.
A stone golem is a completely different item than a castle wall. It has an animating spirit inside of it. Or it is not engineered liek a castle wall. You can effect a Stone Golem with Rock to Mud. Most worked stone is immune to rock to mud.
Stone Golems have the same hardness as walls, that is true but castle walls were alot more than their hardness. Castle design included walls designed to reinforce each other, or make it more difficult for things like picks. Perhaps the Golem is beat because the animating force has been driven out of it. There are numerous explanations one can use to avoid having to use rules in places they do not belong.
the long jump for the rogue... the rules are meant to handle that. Hardness of castle walls? The rules Clearly break down at that point.
No a fighter with a sword could never break through a castle wall.
Keeping half an eye on this for the last 8 pages, I think people are starting to fall into the RAW trap. Basically if it isn't covered in the rules and requires GM Fiat it cant happen. This is fine for character builds and general rules, but a fantasy war must happen inside a setting. This means god(s), outsiders, fey, and more independent actors that can impact the course of a war.
Its nice to talk about a wire net over key areas, but what happens when enough birds get caught in it to piss off the local druids. Similar issues apply to the wholesale creation of magically constructed buildings.
Much depends on context, which is hard to define in the abstract as we are. Magical fueled War in Golarion is far different then Eberron, then Forgotten Realms, then Dark Sun, then Dragon Lance. Like economy the greater impacts of prevalent low-level magic on society should really be moved off thread and arguably into its own project in taking the "world" of PFCore into its own consideration from beginning up.
The other way to look at this is how earth historical tales and those passed down in oral tradition would work out.
IMO most come down to handful of heroes and "forces" (monsters, terrain, etc) turn battles for "mortals." Often involving as much espionage as outright battle.
So far there have been many good suggestions for specific strategies and counters. Perhaps we should take it a bit further and create some hypothetical wars between two city states. Say, in Golarion if Korvosa went to war with Magnimar. Lets act as a cabal of "Merchants of Death" and figure out what resources each side could possible call on and what they lack... so we can sell it them and extend their conflict by stalemate.
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Mournblade, your argument is weak. You have all these excuses and imagination to find a reason why the fighter can beat a thing make of stone but cannot find one reason why they can do the same thing to a wall.
The rules only break down because you think they do. The rules have clearly defined ways for players to destroy inanimate objects. But you arbitrarily decide that because it is a fortification they cannot chop it down.
There are a ton of in game ways to avoid the conclusion you are reaching. Read some of the fantastic tactics we are discussing here. Castles in a fantasy game might be just stone but they will have magical protection. The stone it self might be charged with the ability to spontaneously heal using spells like stone shape, mending, make whole.
A castle enchanted with the ability to do unlimited make whole could use that every round right after it was hit. Boom the fighter hits it. Next round, all better. Now that tactic is invalidated.
It would cost 6000 gp to get that done to the castle. (caster level x spell level x 2000 for continuous use item) for gp value. For that small investment the castle constantly heals itself.
Want to give it spell resistance? 5000 gp for SR 13. 5000 gp for each point more.
Use the system and make it work. Don't just throw your hands up with believability and claim it is broken.
Not to put a damper on things but it's going to cost a lot more than that karkon:
Magically treating a building costs 5,000 gp for a Large building, 10,000 gp for a Huge building, 20,000 gp for a Gargantuan building, and 40,000 gp for a Colossal building. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat buildings.For larger buildings, put together multiple buildings of these sizes and add the hit points together.
Gates can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating a gate costs 2,000 gp for a Large gate, 4,000 gp for a Huge gate, 8,000 gp for a Gargantuan gate, and 16,000 gp for a Colossal gate. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat gates.
The walls that guard castles and cities are sturdy fortifications, usually constructed in a series of 5-foot squares. A square of wall has an AC of 5, and hardness and hit points equal to its type.
Squares of walls can be magically treated. Doing so doubles the hardness and hit points. Magically treating wall squares costs 500 gp per wall square. A spellcaster with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat can magically treat walls.
Each section of the wall has to be enchanted separately as does each building and each gate.
Not that it couldn't be done -- but it's not going to be cheap (and that's just for magically increasing it's hardness and HP).
Please note that you could use the harden spell after magically treating the buildings too -- but that could be dispelled by any other spell caster.
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Now something else to consider on these topics would be the problem of overlapping abjuration magic.
If one abjuration spell is active within 10 feet of another for 24 hours or more, the magical fields interfere with each other and create barely visible energy fluctuations. The DC to find such spells with the Perception skill drops by 4.
It's not going to be a problem for a magic circle against evil with shield in the middle of combat... but for setting up magical defenses that could give away stuff and create interesting issues in and of itself.
Personally I think use of Tiny Hut spells which blocks line of sight are going to be used by the defenders to help prevent the siege people from knowing what's going on in the castle.
That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.It is true. The industrial revolution destroyed our economy. Faster manufacturing times leads to anarchy!Think about what you say before hitting post please. The industrial revolution still worked on the backs of labor. It merely allowed labor to produce things more efficiently with relatively little training and it still required a ton of it to function properly..
A magic item takes one guy to do all the work. Depending on the item itself that one guy is usually a spellcaster not a mason or common laborer. That's a lot of unemployed people you have to find jobs for.
I did think about my post. I also posted in a snarky manner.
There are all sorts of "magic items" we use today where one man does what used to be the work of many.
But my hypothesis is that the more magic you have in the world, the more the world will look modern. Will magic put laborers out of work? Depends on how common magic is in the world and how long its been around. A wall of stone wand might temporarily destabilize the economy when it is first invented, but if they've been in common use for thousands of years, the economy will adapt.
Not that Pathfinder mechanics lead in any way to reasonable economics.
I think you forgot the point where it was discussed that 5th+ characters would be relatively rare.
The economy is a discussion for another thread but I think it bears thinking that when your world is populated by an elite number of 5th+ characters and millions upon millions more of characters that have commoner levels and you start popping food, buildings, furniture, and other such items into existence with magic you either have to solve the problem of employing those people or be ready for the inevitable civil unrest.
And to take it further you have to solve the issue of angering certain gods who witness as you ruin their portfolios completely (I'm looking at Erastil here).
But anywa that's a discussion for another thread. Obviously an item of such power would be extremely valuable in a military sense but likely very destructive in an economic and political sense without a great deal of care in its use.
Depends really. A lot of life-changing magic items can be crafted at low levels. Adepts are NPC classes, and theoretically pretty common. Much like magewrights. They likewise can rock socks on magic item creation. All you need is a 3rd level adept and wham, the world changes.
I'm by no means suggesting that an 11th level wizard (fabricate is a 6th level spell) should take some time out of his day to use fabricate to craft a lot of furniture or something. I would imagine a wizard selling his services to a local lord, building him forward outposts in minutes rather than days and weeks, in exchange for compensation for his troubles and expertise. Likewise, I could see an 11th level wizard beginning a community because it suits the wizard.
Of course, I am very much of the opinion that high level characters are few and far between. The 3.x DMG notes as much as well. However, the Pathfinder Gamemastery Guide flies in the face of this reasoning, by suggesting that your average barmaid is a CR 1/2 2nd level expert. For those paying attention, an orc warrior trained to kill you is typically a CR 1/3 1st level warrior. Damn, barmaids must be pretty wily! Average farmer? 2nd level. Average mayor? 10th level! Aristocrat 3 / Expert 7. Your average mayor of a dirt-village is a CR 5+.
Cavalry? 6th Level Fighter.
General? 11th Level Fighter.
A Priest? 9th Level Cleric (5th level spells).
Acolyte? 1st Level Cleric.
High Priest? 13th level Cleric (that's 7th level spells by the way).
Heck, your typical prostitute is a rogue 1 / expert 1 and carries an elixer of love. Just so you know, the brothel girls and barmaids should grab the shopkeepers (expert 3), a bartender (expert 4/warrior 1), and the drunkards in the bar (commoner 1/warrior 2) and go kick the poop out of any of those CR 1/3 orc warrior 1s who dare to show their faces.
Every one of these average townsfolk make your 1st level heroes look like wussies. Heck, the prostitute makes for a kickarse rogue. She can throw a dagger at +2, from being disguised with her +11 disguise modifier, to inflict 1d4-1+1d6 damage, before bruno the Bartender she lulled into her confidence with her elixer of lurv pounds your face for asking her the wrong questions. :P
Please Note: This is not how my games work at all. Honestly, I find the suggested levels of the NPCs laughable. I ascribe more closely with the 3.x suggestions of keeping people within the realm of realism. Most people in my worlds are in fact 1st level in an NPC class. Most of them are probably commoners, unless they have some reason to be just a little more advanced. Since commoners have Craft and Profession as class skills, that's rare.
That's okay though, because I like to mix the realistic levels with the fantasy levels. It lets players enjoy the high levels all the more, because they can look back and see that they are extremely powerful individuals. A 20th level wizard could probably take on entire squadrons of soldiers in melee combat without resorting to casting spells (let's see, AC somewhere in the 35-40 range, 20% concealment, +10/+5 BAB routine, a few magic items granting energy resistance and such, and our wizard is pretty much ready to rock faces).
Unfortunately that's not the way Ashiel would use it which is what I'm addressing. I'm just pointing out the issues in its use so that they might be addressed and putting forth ideas.
I for one have always been the mind that wizards stay out of such matters because they don't want to solve mundane peoples problems, they'd rather be doing more magic. Mundane peoples problems are always more complicated than they appear. Easier to just try and untie the conundrum of Frizzlebeards Quantum Planar theory of symmetrical elemental inhabitation.
I dunno. If you can solve a problem quickly, and get paid for doing it, then turn around and use the money you're paid to research new spells (which you can), there's almost no reason not to.
Ok, so you realize there's famine going on, and there's not enough food to go around. People are in civil unrest. So you create a device that creates food and water on command, and even flavors it as desired. It costs about 15,500 gp, and makes you a hero. It produces enough food to sustain 15 people for an entire day every 10 minutes. That's 2160 people per day, off your machine. You're quite the hero running your little soup kitchen. Maybe you market it to cities at 31,000 gp, since a city can afford these things. Heck, such a device would make wars of attrition more difficult, as starving a walled up community to death would be much, much harder.
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Not to put a damper on things but it's going to cost a lot more than that karkon:
"Some rules"
Stupid other rules that I didn't know about. The individual enchantment seems to apply only to hardening them. So maybe the kingdom can get off cheaper.
Still in a magical world you would be stupid not to spend the money to protect your fortification. It can be enchanted and that is the important thing.
Not to put a damper on things but it's going to cost a lot more than that karkon:
"Some rules"
Stupid other rules that I didn't know about. The individual enchantment seems to apply only to hardening them. So maybe the kingdom can get off cheaper.
Still in a magical world you would be stupid not to spend the money to protect your fortification. It can be enchanted and that is the important thing.
Yeah I'm not saying impossible or even 'not a good investment' but definitely not super cheap either. I would consider it gold well spent.
It might actually be cheaper to have a 3rd level cleric, wizard, sorcerer, oracle, or similar spellcaster (or just an at-will magic item) who stands on the friendly-side of a wall and keep casting make whole on the wall. Each casting restores 30+ cubic feet worth of material every time you cast it.
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That's fine so long as you don't mind ruining your economy. Probably better for emergency uses. And likely the first thing to be stolen/destroyed by enemy spies.73k to create an item of unlim fabricate and unlim stone shape, you can make castles in less than a month.Wall of Stone, Wall of Iron, Fabricate. Everything you need to make rudimentary fortresses, furniture, and more in record time. Gotta love it. ^-^
As far as I get it, fabricate will do nothing from ore, as it will not "output" two different products (refined metal and slag).
Same problem when making complex items.It allow input of 1 material -> output of the same material in a different form.
So you could shape steel into a sword blade but not make the hilt with the same casting of the spell.
You can make one of more planks out of a tree trunk, but not a closet with hinges and handles unless they are all made of wood.
Fabricate will not create the material from nothing too, it will only change its shape.
So:
- the spell will produce components and pieces of stuff, but it will produce very simple completed item;
- the quality of the item produced is commensurate to the spell caster skills ("You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.");
- it will change the economy for sure, like the assembly line and automation did for us, but it will not destroy it.
stuffs
I don't think it's so out of line. Notice that the orc has better combat stats than the barmaid -- he's going to hit more often (+5 compared to +1 and AC 11 compared to AC 13) and kill on the first hit on average instead of wound. She is a level 2 commoner by the way, not expert (the average farmer is a level 1 commoner/ level 1 expert). The barmaid however is going to be more likely that you are trying to sneak out before paying, or steal your money.
And honestly it's not that surprising this is the case -- the Norse won notoriety not through stand up combat prowess but by the fact they suddenly appeared right before morning killed those they came across and stole everything they could. They got back home it was back to farming. Orcs can easily be the same way -- it doesn't hurt they have actual weapons ready and armor too.
Could the town fend off orcs if they knew they were coming? Probably -- and probably do a good job of it... but people are still going to die from the attack. However that's not how orcs attack -- they show up start a fire and hack while grabbing the goods before running in the middle of the night.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Yeah I'm not saying impossible or even 'not a good investment' but definitely not super cheap either. I would consider it gold well spent.Not to put a damper on things but it's going to cost a lot more than that karkon:
"Some rules"
Stupid other rules that I didn't know about. The individual enchantment seems to apply only to hardening them. So maybe the kingdom can get off cheaper.
Still in a magical world you would be stupid not to spend the money to protect your fortification. It can be enchanted and that is the important thing.
Abe, do you have a link to the 'some rules'? Sorry, search fu is weak at work.
Though the idea of enchanting a keep/wall/city gave me a scary thought...
And intelligent keep/wall/city.
"Fortress Maximus, Transform!"
Most those are the siege rules from the UC. Under gamemastery/siege on this page. The fortification stuff is towards the bottom.
@Ashiel: Well we could make an argument that it's ultimately cheaper and less risky to do things mundanely. 31k gold is not a small chucnk of change. You'd have to feed hundreds of thousands before you'd get your investment back. In fact a nation would likely find it cheaper to simply trade with allies to get that food.
As to the CR's of certain dudes. I tend to think that the one's for foot soldiers are kind of silly. I can see it out of green recruits but as I said before a unit is not going to consist of nothing but dudes fresh out of basic training.
@Ashiel: Well we could make an argument that it's ultimately cheaper and less risky to do things mundanely. 31k gold is not a small chucnk of change. You'd have to feed hundreds of thousands before you'd get your investment back. In fact a nation would likely find it cheaper to simply trade with allies to get that food.
As to the CR's of certain dudes. I tend to think that the one's for foot soldiers are kind of silly. I can see it out of green recruits but as I said before a unit is not going to consist of nothing but dudes fresh out of basic training.
Actually, 31,000 gp is the living expense of only 3,100 people per month. Not cost of food, but the cost of living in general. Not even a meager living. A large city could certainly afford something like this pretty easily. I already noted that you could feed 2,160 people per day with such a device, so you're a little less than 1000 people below the bar in terms of the device feeding 3,100 people continuously. Of course, multiple iterations of such a device would see to that issue quite well.
Such a tool would be ideal for a time of famine. It doesn't matter how much money you have if there's no food to go around. 31,000 gp is an investment for a rainy day. There is literally no downside to having it, and there's lots of benefit to having it. Honestly the possibilities are endless.
EDIT: I'd estimate 31,000 gp to being worth about $310,000, based on the value of the services and prices for food and lodging in the core rulebook, with silver pieces being about $10, and copper pieces being about $1. An average living would be about $1,000 per month which would be fine for minimum or slightly above minimum wage (when I worked at a grocery store as a stocker, I pulled about $800 per month, and that's including them taking out taxes and benefits, and it was a "dead end job").
If a community, especially a large community, could feed 2,160 people indefinitely for $310,000 it would not only be a valuable investment, but an investment worth investing in multiple times.
@Ashiel: I had a good response for this but decided against it as I don't want to derail the thread with the advantages and disadvantages of expensive magical replicators over common labor and statesmanship. Perhaps for another thread.
So we have a fair idea of what the ground pounders would look like and essentially agree that thered be a lot of fights not unlike the Illiad going around with a mix of modern black ops and tons upon tons of intrigue.
So let's discuss Naval and Air power. :)
And if you want to get really fantastic, Planar Power.
As for the ocean, I find it takes a much higher level before characters can ignore the inherent dangers of sea travel.
Storms, starvation, and drowning all require some decent levels before you can just squash it with magic.
Also, Aquatic monsters tend to have some decent CR on them.
The ocean would be a wild and dangerous place. But as to the result of that, a bit more complicated. But for start, total sea domination is harder than it was for historic earth. Imagine the Spanish Armada bumping into a White Whale, or a Sea Serpent just as easily as a storm.
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As far as I get it, fabricate will do nothing from ore, as it will not "output" two different products (refined metal and slag).
Same problem when making complex items.
It allow input of 1 material -> output of the same material in a different form.So you could shape steel into a sword blade but not make the hilt with the same casting of the spell.
You can make one of more planks out of a tree trunk, but not a closet with hinges and handles unless they are all made of wood.Fabricate will not create the material from nothing too, it will only change its shape.
So:
- the spell will produce components and pieces of stuff, but it will produce very simple completed item;
- the quality of the item produced is commensurate to the spell caster skills ("You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship.");
- it will change the economy for sure, like the assembly line and automation did for us, but it will not destroy it.the wall of stone creates the material, fabricate shapes it. with some knowledge of architecture and engineering to use that stone to create the floor plan of the castle... and basically every building which is what would require most of the time and material.
sadly, the make whole spell would only restore 3d6points of damage to the wall for 6k
EDIT: and polymorph any object being an 8th level spell would cost 120k to create
Remember that you still need to use mortar, timber for the support beams and so on. And the spellcaster need to have the skills for what he is building.
It will be simpler if the caster can anchor the wall of stone in the spot where he want to build the structure, as he would be capable to shape it at the time of casting.One of the reason why I don't like the Paizo solution to the intelligence boosting items is that with different items you can remap your skills simply donning a different circlet of vast intelligence and learn whatever skill it contain as long as you wear it.
One of my houserule is that you must chose the skills, add them to your skill list. They are available only when you don the circlet, but they are a permanent choice.
Paizo way require less bookkeeping, but it is prone to exploitation.
Fabricate is great to produce pre-fabricated components. So it will reduce building costs, not make all the other workers obsolete.
To return to the main argument, magic is great to make hasty fortifications on the battlefield.
In the 2nd edition one of my preferred line of spells, mostly for flavour, were the War Sphere spells.
Not impressive from a player character point of view, but great for a army commander.
As I am mastering a Kingmaker campaign I should look if they cn be adapted.
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Want to mess up a field hospital REAAAAAL bad and take out a chunk of the enemies healers? Gate in some infernal/demonic allies and you've got a viable plan. Either the healers will be more prepped for healing or they'll need to use a very big chunk of their resources to drive off otherworldly threats.Cheliax for the win.
Magic circle against evil.
Very useful for plenty of reason in a magic world field hospital.Your patient has been possessed? He get a chance to suppress the effect.
He has been dominated or controlled? he get a chance to suppress the effect.
You are attacked by evil summoned creatures? It keep them at bay.
Enchanting a tent with a permanent Magic circle against evil wouldn't cost too much and be worth every gp.
* Not too much is 30.000 gp at market price, but it will last practically forever. Think it as the main mobile operating theatre for a MASH unit.