Not gonna lie, this idea is basically a shot in the dark, but I was wondering if it was possible for it to work.
Imagine if you will, having a Scimitar in one hand, and having a 'glove of storing' in the other. Now, according to the rules, a character can use the dervish dance feat so long as he is wielding no weapon or shield in his off hand. So basically, all you have to do is attack with the scimitar first, then after you are done, you can use your free action to draw out your other weapon (lets say...a gun perhaps)...fire it a couple of times (assuming you have two-weapon fighting and taking the appropriate penalties), and then return it back into your glove as a free action (thus allowing you to maintain the bonuses of Dervish Dance).
OR...
lets say you keep your scimitar in your glove instead, and you are using a 'weapon cord' on your other weapon (lets continue to use a gun for this example). Well, if this is the case, you can basically ensure that you can reload your gun, drop it if necessary, then draw your scimitar and go to town (all while still using the 'two-weapon fighting' feature WITHOUT losing your Dervish Dance ability).
Pretty neat trick hey? Again, I might be 'cutting corners' a bit, but this really does seem like a cool system.
Not gonna lie, this idea is basically a shot in the dark, but I was wondering if it was possible for it to work.
Imagine if you will, having a Scimitar in one hand, and having a 'glove of storing' in the other. Now, according to the rules, a character can use the dervish dance feat so long as he is wielding no weapon or shield in his off hand. So basically, all you have to do is attack with the scimitar first, then after you are done, you can use your free action to draw out your other weapon (lets say...a gun perhaps)...fire it a couple of times (assuming you have two-weapon fighting and taking the appropriate penalties), and then return it back into your glove as a free action (thus allowing you to maintain the bonuses of Dervish Dance).
This sounds broken like a "bag of rats." It Might be technically RAW but it's wrong and shouldn't be allowed/considered.
There is several reason why it shouldn't work anyway. For instance you can't take a two weapon fighting penalty if you don't have two weapons in your hands and if you don't take the penalty you don't get to use two weapons.
For instance you can't take a two weapon fighting penalty if you don't have two weapons in your hands and if you don't take the penalty you don't get to use two weapons.
Untrue. Imagine a 2WF knife thrower with quick draw. He might start the round without any weapons in his hands. He can still take the 2WF penalty and use his full allotment of attacks, even though he's probably drawing a half-dozen weapons as he goes.
if you don't have the weapons available at the start of your turn (and take all penalties associated with using them both) you don't get to use them both.
Also untrue. See above comment.
A glove of storing is treated exactly like drawing a weapon, except that it's a free action (just like quickdraw) and you can "sheathe" it as well.
That means that anything in a Glove of Storing is "available" at the start of your turn, and all throughout it, as would be any weapon on your person if you happen to have Quickdraw.
Thus the only options you've got for two-weapon fighting Dervish Dancing are options that don't benefit from Dervish Dance (Unarmed Strike, Spiked Gauntlet, Armor Spikes, etc)
I don't think OP is suggesting that his gun attacks should benefit from Dervish Dance, only that he should be allowed to make the extra attacks while maintaining the Dervish Dance bonuses to his primary weapon.
This is mechanically no different than Dervish Dance+ spiked gauntlet. It's just another example of how to mix Dervish Dance with 2WF.
OP, I'd suggest picking up Quick Draw and using throwing knives/axes. It would save you a lot of money on the magic item and cost of guns/ammo.
If you really want to break this combo wide open what you want to do is get two gloves of storing, and two scimitars, and just switch which hand is armed and which is empty mid-attack.
As munchkin-y as this is, it makes for a pretty cool visual of what the combat style might be like.
Untrue. Imagine a 2WF knife thrower with quick draw. He might start the round without any weapons in his hands. He can still take the 2WF penalty and use his full allotment of attacks, even though he's probably drawing a half-dozen weapons as he goes.For instance you can't take a two weapon fighting penalty if you don't have two weapons in your hands and if you don't take the penalty you don't get to use two weapons.
Okay, you got me there.
Your right.
It still seems like (as the name of the thread would suggest) an abuse.
I guess you could also ask what constitutes as a weapon because. I could get throw anything and toss wine bottles.
Or I could duel Scimitar by keeping a bunch of scimitars in an Efficient Quiver. Attack with my scimitar drop it quick draw a new scimitar with my other hand attack-drop-quick draw-attack-drop-quick draw.
Wash and repeat.
Drizzt lives!!! Sort of.
It's a shame that you can't use two gloves of storing (as it specifically states that you can only use one at a time in the description). Still, I wish there was an effective way to dual wield pistols (or heck, dual wield scimitars with the dervish dance ability).
It's a shame that you can't use two gloves of storing (as it specifically states that you can only use one at a time in the description). Still, I wish there was an effective way to dual wield pistols (or heck, dual wield scimitars with the dervish dance ability).
Interestingly enough It doesn't state in the combat section what type of action switching your weapons hand is. I guess it's a move action.
Like I said just keep a lot of scimitars on your person somehow.
Glove of storing. Efficient Quiver. two strapped to your back two on your sides.
you will have a lot of scimitars to pick up at the end of the fight but full attack wiht scimitars...
its broken and stupid and most GM won't allow it(and they shouldn't) but it's RAW.
you will have a lot of scimitars to pick up at the end of the fight but full attack wiht scimitars...
its broken and stupid and most GM won't allow it(and they shouldn't) but it's RAW.
Actually this won't work... I think.. you would still take -4 penalty to both attacks because your off hand is always the same hand. and you would only deal half with that hand anyway.
You're the guy who hates Gunslingers because you feel they are cheesy and overpowered right?
oh, the irony.
You're the guy who hates Gunslingers because you feel they are cheesy and overpowered right?
oh, the irony.
Glad to know I have a fan :P. To be fair though, my main issues with Gunslinger's is that they make a lot of things obsolete (such as armor, natural armor, etc). When your average encounter mostly involves things like 'sellswords', 'pirates', 'soldiers', as well as the occasional monster/undead/construct...being able to constantly hit a touch AC is pretty much child's play for a Gunslinger. I suppose my main issues was that Gunslinger's get to bypass SO MANY problems that other classes are forced to deal with (with the exception of Arcane spellcasters). Still, unlike spellcasters, the Gunslinger get's a full BAB, good hit die, good skill points, and two good saves (which seems VERY generous compared to other classes).
In all honesty though, I actually enjoy the Gunslinger, and I fully intend to make my own for the next campaign I'm in. The reason why I wrote the threat "Does anyone else hate gunslinger's" was mostly to start a worthwhile discussion regarding the class and get some people's opinions.
And yet, an archer ranger will still beat them out in almost any situation :-)
Have you looked at the Sword and Pistol feat? Or the Fusilier archetype from Super Genius Games product? They both deal with fighting with swords and guns.
|
I really like this idea. Mostly, though, I really like the idea of cheating to get dervish dance while two-weapon fighting with two scimitars... sadly, I don't think it'll work for a duelist, though you could argue that, if it'll work for dervish dance, it'd work for for him, too.
Oh, poor Duelist. Someday we'll make you work...
|
[q]my main issues with Gunslinger's is that they make a lot of things obsolete (such as armor, natural armor, etc). [/q]Blaster-casters have been fragging that ever since 3.5 and earlier with Scorching Ray and {i]Searing Light[/i].
And then there's Sunder, guaranteed to make you wonder why you bother with anything that isn't adamantine. Or aren't just swigging potions of Mirror Image like soda-pop.
|
|
Weapon cords are 2-foot-long leather straps that attach your weapon to your wrist. If you drop your weapon or are disarmed, you can recover it as a swift action, and it never moves any further away from you than an adjacent square. However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp). Unlike a locked gauntlet, you can still use a hand with a weapon cord, though a dangling weapon may interfere with finer actions.
So, no fire my pistol, reload, drop it then switch to a scimitar on the same hand.
Pistol in the other hand? I am unsure if it can be called a "free hand" by RAW with a pistol (or other weapon) dangling from your wrist. I am sure it is against ROI.
Dervish Dance (Combat)Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Carrying, not even using. I would say that the weapon dangling from the wrist cord is against RAW too.
The trick with the glove of storing is clearly against ROI but apparently not against RAW.
BTW: if you were to try that trick in my campaign and continue to use it after a couple of warning your character would be know as Duskblade the hook handed or Duskblade the maimed after a few sessions.
;D
It's a shame that you can't use two gloves of storing (as it specifically states that you can only use one at a time in the description). Still, I wish there was an effective way to dual wield pistols (or heck, dual wield scimitars with the dervish dance ability).
Personally, regardless of the RAW, the entire Glove of Storing concept is cheesy. Common sense should dictate that sometimes, while something might be possible, it' not always a good idea in practice. Regardless of the consensus or gathered opinions in this thread, I would not allow that to happen in my game, regardless of what the player stated or what facts he tossed in my direction.
That said, the easiest way to solve the above issue I quoted is to simply allow the Dervish to dual-wield. I allow it my game, but I limit it to scimitars or small weapons only (short swords, jambya, etc.) only, and I make the call on weapons are appropriate. Thankfully I have players who don't thrive on finding new and interesting ways to test my patience. So far, it's not that big of a deal overall. The class is slightly more powerful, but it's not really too big of an issue since the last NPCs they ran into could do it too, it balanced out.
"But the RAW says you can't Dual-Wield while doing the Dervish Dance!"
The RAW also says it's our game, and we make the rules.
Sometimes, common sense permitting, it's not a bad idea to try something and see how it works out. Spend a session using a 2WF Dervish and see how it fits into the game. If you think it's too OP, pull it out. If it meshes well, try it a bit longer. Field test your ideas with the campaign you're playing in, talk to you GM and see how they like the idea.
My layers come to me with an idea. If I don't like it we try to refine the idea and come to an agreement. Then we play test it. Surprisingly I thought I would be the one saying 'no' a lot but as it turns out, more often than not it's the players who says 'you know, on paper this looked a really great idea... it's not so great in practice'. It's by this method that we've developed a ton of new and fun ways to expand on the universe in a way we can all agree on.
Personally, I am a big supporter of allowing player's to dual wield scimitars while using dervish dance (but again, that's just me). Dex and Con are two of my favorite stats, and I always enjoy dumping Strength whenever I can (unless I'm making a character that needs a high strength...such as a fighter or barbarian). Anyways though, the main intention of this thread was to find a good way to wield a sword and pistol (kinda swashbuckler meets pirate sort of deal). It's not REALLY intended to abuse the system, just offer new and creative ideas.
And on a side note, does anyone else think that gloves of storing cost WAY too much? I mean, I actually liked the pricing of them back in 3.0 (where I believe they were only 2,200 gp...which seems A LOT more reasonable).
Yeah, me and a lot of people in my group are eagerly awaiting a 'magic item compendium' for Pathfinder. Currently a lot of us are just using the MIC from 3.5 in order to give our characters more magic item options. A spell compendium would also be welcome for Pathfinder as well, as many of us feel that some spell lists would do well to have a little more expansion.
Question: is it even relevant if this is 'abusive' or not? The Agile weapon property (which I would imagine is likely available if Dervish Dance is, as neither is 'core') allows for finessable weapons to add Dexterity to damage without any of the complications inherent to Dervish Dance, and is on the low end less expensive than a glove of storing.
So if you want to take a lesser option ('abusing' dervish dance) over just taking an agile rapier or some such, whats it really matter if its using fuzzy rules to achieve?
Question: is it even relevant if this is 'abusive' or not? The Agile weapon property (which I would imagine is likely available if Dervish Dance is, as neither is 'core') allows for finessable weapons to add Dexterity to damage without any of the complications inherent to Dervish Dance, and is on the low end less expensive than a glove of storing.
So if you want to take a lesser option ('abusing' dervish dance) over just taking an agile rapier or some such, whats it really matter if its using fuzzy rules to achieve?
It's nice to see more people on the boards using their brains. Good job KrispyXIV.
I was unaware that there was such a property availiable, as I have been unable to find it anywhere on the SRD for Pathfinder. If you could provide a link to the location of this property, I'd be very grateful.
I was unaware that there was such a property availiable, as I have been unable to find it anywhere on the SRD for Pathfinder. If you could provide a link to the location of this property, I'd be very grateful.
I believe its in the Pathfinder Society Field guide.
Its a +1 property that allows a finessable weapon (with a wielder with weapon finesse) to add their dexterity to damage instead of strength when wielded one handed. I think it specifies it works like strength in your offhand (its halved).
Anyone got more info, or who can confirm I have this right?
Hmmm, this almost makes me wonder how an Agile weapon would interact with the 'Double Slice' feat.
Hmmm, this almost makes me wonder how an Agile weapon would interact with the 'Double Slice' feat.
I believe it replaces Strength, so it should work as you'd expect it to.