Tell it to the Native Americans. I'm sure they'd love to hear all about it.
No, see, they never had properly documented title. They base their claims on the same "we happened to be living here" basis that is above being offered as the reason that the Spanish didn't have the right to sell the land to the US. This only emphasizes that the British/Canadian claim is ridiculous, since the British/Canadians colonized despite it.
Similarly, a might-makes-right theory that would somehow make the 19th Century British claims valid over both the natives and Spanish/Americans would now similarly favor the US claim over Canada in the 20th Century.
Nope, no matter how you slice it, the US owns all of North America (north of its border with Mexico) that's in the Pacific watershed, and the British/Canadian intransigence justifies the US responding by also seizing Alberta, Shetland, Orkney, and whatever chunks of Newfoundland and Labrador we need to get their oil, too.
Hmm. Also, the Canadians owe us a daily delivery of a fresh order of Timbits and coffee to my home in reparations, plus $100/week in Canadian Tire money.
Tell it to the Native Americans. I'm sure they'd love to hear all about it.Oh yeah. You guys slaughtered all the natives in your country when you got there. Yaknow, like civilized people tend to do. /troll
Now they slowly buy it back with casino's.
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I've often told my friends, "What I'm really lookin' forward to is the first Native President of the United States. Even if his first words to the crowd are, 'All right, you've had your fun. Go home.*'"
(*Not that Europe would take us!)
Not that I would listen. Born here, raised here, that's his claim to fame and it is the same with me -- regardless if he likes it or not.
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Now they slowly buy it back with casino's.
Well how else are they going to get (some of) their country back? Fight you for it? I mean really.
Not that theyre going to get a break, but they got the short oend of the stick. In the US as well as Canada.
Your country resorted to genocide, and mine resorted to forced "schooling" which was basiclly a vehicle for abuse and cultural subjugation.
Of course I get to say "It wasnt my ancestors who did that" since my family has only been here since 1950. lol.
Now they slowly buy it back with casino's.Well how else are they going to get (some of) their country back? Fight you for it? I mean really.
Not that theyre going to get a break, but they got the short oend of the stick. In the US as well as Canada.
Your country resorted to genocide, and mine resorted to forced "schooling" which was basiclly a vehicle for abuse and cultural subjugation.
Of course I get to say "It wasnt my ancestors who did that" since my family has only been here since 1950. lol.
Yeah, however the residential schools were around until the late 60's early 70's with the last one closing in the 90's.
Of course I get to say "It wasnt my ancestors who did that" since my family didn't move here until 1987 haha
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Yeah, however the residential schools were around until the late 60's early 70's with the last one closing in the 90's.
Of course I get to say "It wasnt my ancestors who did that" since my family didn't move here until 1987 haha
Touché.
But I can say with certainty my grandfather wasnt involved in that, because I know what his career was in (Military Base, stationed on bases in europe) up until he retired. and on the other side, electrician.
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It wasn't your ancestors -- you both simply shame those by benefiting from the crimes of others who did it got their hands bloody and now your families have moved in to enjoy the fruits of their foul deeds.
Happy?
And before people get pissy with me:
It probably was my ancestors. And if it was they did horrible things. That sucks and I'm sorry for their actions. But what they did allowed for me to grow in the culture I have, enjoyed the fruits that I have, and to live the life that I have. I will not dishonor the good they have brought to me by not speaking out against those that free load on their faults flaws and sins and then claim clean hands.
Now I do not believe in original sin -- I will try to help those that are less fortunate because of things that happened to their ancestors in the past through no fault of the current generations. That's being human -- and I will sympathize with the plight they are in, and understand that the joys I have are in part due to their suffering.
However if the situations were reversed I don't have any illusions that the same would not have happened if it was Europe being settled by 'Native Americans'.
You, sir, are a product that have reaped the benefits of generational genocide.
Because of the crimes against humanity that were probably brought upon by your ancestors, you may be guilty as charged due to being the product of an accessory after the fact.
But don't you worry, Mr. Spalding.
It is coming. The natives are restless.
[cues ominous music using Moog synthesizers.]
generational genocide.
Is that like in Logan's Run where you kill everybody over twenty-one?
EDIT: Added link.
Is that like in Logan's Run where you kill everybody over twenty-one?generational genocide.
I think it was 50.
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It wasn't your ancestors -- you both simply shame those by benefiting from the crimes of others who did it got their hands bloody and now your families have moved in to enjoy the fruits of their foul deeds.
Happy?
lol. I'm not so easily offended.
Those things that happened are unacceptable. But the fact that we live here doesn't stop us from having clean hands. My grandfather moved here in 1950, with 14 british pounds in his pocket. He worked for what he had, he didnt get a free ride.
I've got the same chance as any non-native in canada. They have a better chance nowadays, because the government is trying to make up for the crap they did. I'm certainly not getting a free university education, they didnt pay me to go to highschool, and I have to pay taxes on all my goods and services.
By claiming I have clean hands, I'm not saying the things that happened are acceptable, I'm simply saying that when someone is complaining about the injustices they suffered at the hands of europeans, and doing so in an accusatory fashion, I am not a valid target to accuse.
Its like if someone who is advocating black rights in the states is complaining about racism and generalizes it to all white people, and someone says to him: "Но, я только что получил в США в прошлом году."
People today are not responsible for crimes that happened a long time ago, but when you blame a group (which perpetrated the crime a long time ago) you should make sure you're not including people who had nothing to do with it.
I'm Irish Canadian. My grandparents moved here from Tipperary. I learned alot about Irelands subjugation and struggle for independence growing up. It's like, If I complain about the english, I shouldn't do it to the french guy who moved to england last year.
Also:
*Shakes fist at the english people*
Considering the amount of influence the french had on the English (and how often they ruled the English) maybe you should...
All in all for me it's simply a cause of willfully being blind to the fact that by moving to and accepting a place in a society you accept the baggage that comes with it. You are personally saying (or rather your ancestors did) that you are willing to associate and accept being part of that people, their past, and their future. To then step back and say, "Whoa not me." Is to disown a very piece of why you (or again your ancestors) choose to join the country in the first place -- those actions are just as responsible for where the country is as the ones people don't mind claiming a part of.
To step in after a company has profited off of wrong doing and buy a piece of stock and then not want to give that up to the victims of the wrong doing 'because it wasn't me' is bunk -- you were profiting off of the wrong doing, even if you didn't do it yourself.
It's saying in effect, "I want all the privileges, rights, and good things that go with being here, but I don't want any of the responsibilities that come with being here."
It's morally and ethically dishonest.
You, sir, are a product that have reaped the benefits of generational genocide.
Because of the crimes against humanity that were probably brought upon by your ancestors, you may be guilty as charged due to being the product of an accessory after the fact.
But don't you worry, Mr. Spalding.
It is coming. The natives are restless.
[cues ominous music using Moog synthesizers.]
That's fine let them come. Either we'll come to terms or we'll come to blows -- either way that's life in a nutshell.
Besides their people had just as much time to beat us to the punch -- can't help it they couldn't manage it.
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Wrong we don't have enough. We need 52. Like a deck of cards, we also need 4 political parties (clubs, hearts, diamonds and shovels)
I vote we split California into Northern California, Central California and Southern California.
I vote we eliminate:
1. Texas
2. Alabama
3. New York
New York is intolerably smug and self-aggrandizing. But we in California are politically aligned with them, for the most part. Making them the enemy of our enemy, or in other words, our friend.
Kick Texas out twice.
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You, sir, are a product that have reaped the benefits of generational genocide.
Because of the crimes against humanity that were probably brought upon by your ancestors, you may be guilty as charged due to being the product of an accessory after the fact.
But don't you worry, Mr. Spalding.
It is coming. The natives are restless.
[cues ominous music using Moog synthesizers.]
And Taurus pedals? Please say there are Taurus pedals! And a Rickenbacker bass!
For my part, I am the second biggest mutt in existence. I am Cherokee, Choctaw, Czech (some Slavic and some Ashkenazi, which means I'm a tiny bit Jewish going way back), a bit English, a bit Scottish, some German and even have a black ancestor, just to name a few.
This means that I simultaneously am a victim of, and guilty of, every awful thing you could ever think of, if for some reason you are a person who believes that we are guilty by relation to what ancestors we never knew, have done. (I am not one of those people, but what do I know?)
My son, however, is the biggest mutt I have ever known. That's because my wife is half-Mexican American, and can name all the Native American tribes to which her family belongs (Apache, Yaqui, Tadamada), and of course this means she has some Spanish ancestry on that side, and her mother says, some Portuguese. Her father's family were from New Orleans and boast some French, some English, some Welsh (and maybe even a little African, just judging from her big beautiful booty).
I mean, how culpable can one little boy get just by sheer association? He's a villain!
New York is intolerably smug and self-aggrandizing.
If your pizza was this good, you would be too. Be free of your pinaple cult!
For my part, I am the second biggest mutt in existence. I am Cherokee, Choctaw, Czech (some Slavic and some Ashkenazi, which means I'm a tiny bit Jewish going way back), a bit English, a bit Scottish, some German and even have a black ancestor, just to name a few.
This means that I simultaneously am a victim of, and guilty of, every awful thing you could ever think of, if for some reason you are a person who believes that we are guilty by relation to what ancestors we never knew, have done. (I am not one of those people, but what do I know?)
My son, however, is the biggest mutt I have ever known. That's because my wife is half-Mexican American, and can name all the Native American tribes to which her family belongs (Apache, Yaqui, Tadamada), and of course this means she has some Spanish ancestry on that side, and her mother says, some Portuguese. Her father's family were from New Orleans and boast some French, some English, some Welsh (and maybe even a little African, just judging from her big beautiful booty).
I mean, how culpable can one little boy get just by sheer association? He's a villain!
Coincidentally, Chuck Norris was 1/8th Cherokee.
That's because he ate a freakin' Indian.
and that New York City is actually a de facto part of the state of New Jersey?Are you just trying to piss off New Yorkers? ;)
How would you tell if a New Yorker were pissed off, in any case?
Do they get politer or something?
and that New York City is actually a de facto part of the state of New Jersey?Are you just trying to piss off New Yorkers? ;)How would you tell if a New Yorker were pissed off, in any case?
Do they get politer or something?
They start reloading.
New York is intolerably smug and self-aggrandizing.
If your pizza was this good, you would be too. Be free of your pinaple cult!
I have to admit, the best pizza I ever had was at a place called the New Yorker. Used to be up the street from where I grew up, here in California. The family that owned it was from New York. It was so damn good. There was always a line out the door.
Unfortunately, they moved to a different part of the state, took the business with them, and sold the building to a semi-chain Italian restaurant.
I cried like a baby.
And anyway, pineapples go on a Hawaiian, not a California pizza. California pizza tends toward even weirder stuff. ;)
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And anyway, pineapples go on a Hawaiian, not a California pizza. California pizza tends toward even weirder stuff. ;)
Like avacado and facelift coupons.
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Considering the amount of influence the french had on the English (and how often they ruled the English) maybe you should...
All in all for me it's simply a cause of willfully being blind to the fact that by moving to and accepting a place in a society you accept the baggage that comes with it. You are personally saying (or rather your ancestors did) that you are willing to associate and accept being part of that people, their past, and their future. To then step back and say, "Whoa not me." Is to disown a very piece of why you (or again your ancestors) choose to join the country in the first place -- those actions are just as responsible for where the country is as the ones people don't mind claiming a part of.
To step in after a company has profited off of wrong doing and buy a piece of stock and then not want to give that up to the victims of the wrong doing 'because it wasn't me' is bunk -- you were profiting off of the wrong doing, even if you didn't do it yourself.
It's saying in effect, "I want all the privileges, rights, and good things that go with being here, but I don't want any of the responsibilities that come with being here."
It's morally and ethically dishonest.
Hmm. I disagree with your logic.
If I move to the states for a job, it doesn't mean I'm buying into every bad thing theyve ever done. It doesnt mean I support what happened in vietnam, or various other wars they started in the past.
I dont think moving somewhere means youre willing to accept their past as a part of who you are. Present and future? maybe. Past? no.
My past is from wherever I was before I moved there.
Especially if you dont pick up all the cultural ideals from the group and generation that committed those acts.
But then, canada isnt big on the melting pot effect that the states has either. In the USA you have the occasional chinatown or amish town. Here, nearly every immigrant group sortof does that, in pretty much every city.
It wears down over several generations, instead of like, one. And in some cases and areas it simply doesnt wear down.
We have some towns that are mostly comprised of the irish canadians, and they dont think or act like 'typical' canadians. polish people keep acting like polish people. Everyone holds onto their own culture, their own background, and isnt expected to pick up canadian culture, beyond the fact that they have to accept the other different people and cultures around them.
If I move to Germany I'm not taking responsibility for the holocaust. Thats outrageous.
They start reloading.and that New York City is actually a de facto part of the state of New Jersey?Are you just trying to piss off New Yorkers? ;)How would you tell if a New Yorker were pissed off, in any case?
Do they get politer or something?
No, no. That's Texans.
You can actually tell when a Texan is pissed off. You can't with a New Yorker.
You can actually tell when a Texan is pissed off. You can't with a New Yorker.
Texans don't reload, they go for the bowie knife :)
Oddly enough for a state that practically requires a gun rack, bowie knives are illegal to carry in texas.
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You can actually tell when a Texan is pissed off. You can't with a New Yorker.Texans don't reload, they go for the bowie knife :)
Oddly enough for a state that practically requires a gun rack, bowie knives are illegal to carry in texas.
That is odd.
Why are they illegal?
The rule here is 6 inches. You can legally carry a knife with a blade no longer than 6 inches. But butterfly knives, switch blades, and any other foldup knife that you can open with one hand is illegal.
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You can actually tell when a Texan is pissed off. You can't with a New Yorker.Texans don't reload, they go for the bowie knife :)
Oddly enough for a state that practically requires a gun rack, bowie knives are illegal to carry in texas.
That is odd.
Why are they illegal?
The rule here is 6 inches. You can legally carry a knife with a blade no longer than 6 inches. But butterfly knives, switch blades, and any other foldup knife that you can open with one hand is illegal.
Never understood the folding knife thing, I know it must not be enforced though, bought a spring loaded one from Canadian Tire last year, when I go to unfold it, it nearly flies out of my hand. Although, I have only cut myself twice.... I shouldn't own pointy things...
and any other foldup knife that you can open with one hand is illegal.
ermm.. you can flick open just about any fold up knife withe one hand and your hip...
The deadly reputation of the Bowie knife led to it being banned in many areas of the American South during the late 1830s.[19] In 1837, the year after Bowie’s death, the Alabama legislature passed laws imposing a $100 transfer tax on 'Bowie' knives and decreeing that anyone carrying a Bowie knife who subsequently killed a person in a fight would be charged with premeditated murder.[19][20] Mississippi prohibited it as a dueling weapon, and in 1838 Tennessee legislators attempted to ban its sale altogether.[19] Laws are still on the books today in many states listing the “Bowie Knife” by name as a deadly weapon and prohibiting the possession and/or carrying of such a knife on one's person.[19] Bowie knives are legal to possess and carry in Virginia, but they are listed by name among weapons that may not be carried concealed.[21]
Apparently the people carrying them have a reputation.
In modern-day Texas, the state where Jim Bowie died, it is a criminal offense (generally a Class A misdemeanor) to carry a Bowie knife, as a Bowie knife is classified in Texas as an "illegal knife".[22] This law does not apply if you are traveling in a private vehicle because it is legal to carry a handgun, knife, or club while en route to or from the vehicle or engaged in a sporting activity involving the use of such equipment.
-so a hunting permit doubles as a knife permit.
I've often told my friends, "What I'm really lookin' forward to is the first Native President of the United States. Even if his first words to the crowd are, 'All right, you've had your fun. Go home.*'"
(*Not that Europe would take us!)
Well, there is always antartica to settle in.
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Never understood the folding knife thing, I know it must not be enforced though, bought a spring loaded one from Canadian Tire last year, when I go to unfold it, it nearly flies out of my hand. Although, I have only cut myself twice.... I shouldn't own pointy things...
Yep. Tasers, Pepperspray for people, and Those extendable police batons are all technically illegal to own, but lots of places sell them. Nobody enforces that stuff.(though funnily enough mace for bears is legal to own and use on people in self defense).
But I imagine the penalty is alot worse if you get arrested for assault with a weapon and the weapon happens to be in the list of prohibited ones.
ermm.. you can flick open just about any fold up knife withe one hand and your hip...
I know. the definition is stupid. Its still the one they use.
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Never understood the folding knife thing, I know it must not be enforced though, bought a spring loaded one from Canadian Tire last year, when I go to unfold it, it nearly flies out of my hand. Although, I have only cut myself twice.... I shouldn't own pointy things...Yep. Tasers, Pepperspray for people, and Those extendable police batons are all technically illegal to own, but lots of places sell them. Nobody enforces that stuff.(though funnily enough mace for bears is legal to own and use on people in self defense).
But I imagine the penalty is alot worse if you get arrested for assault with a weapon and the weapon happens to be in the list of prohibited ones.
ermm.. you can flick open just about any fold up knife withe one hand and your hip...I know. the definition is stupid. Its still the one they use.
Under s.365 of our Criminal Code, we also cannot pretend to practice witchcraft, included in this is fraudulently telling fortunes and charging... if we have the "gift" though, its perfectly legal!
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The Idea of States and counties is counter productive to a single state functioning on consensus of the people. What is needed is the elimination of all states in favour of the nation-state. That way the USA can establish a billion population city state on the mainland and and require that people grow their own food while all being required to serve as the government. It eliminates about 500 billion dollars a year in costs and ends the need for taxes - as long as you are prepared to declare that the USA is a corporation and give everyone shares based on productivity.
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The Idea of States and counties is counter productive to a single state functioning on consensus of the people. What is needed is the elimination of all states in favour of the nation-state. That way the USA can establish a billion population city state on the mainland and and require that people grow their own food while all being required to serve as the government. It eliminates about 500 billion dollars a year in costs and ends the need for taxes - as long as you are prepared to declare that the USA is a corporation and give everyone shares based on productivity.
I dont think an absolute democracy following the greek model is going to solve our problems.
Its kind of hard to legislate everything for the entire country. Creating gun laws for alaska where you're required to have a high caliber pistol on you and new york city where they don't like you having so much as a stick could be problematic.
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At first I thought the idea of going back to city-states would be a cool idea. Then I realized Irvine and Annaheim would have to go to war over control of Orange County. (CA)
PS: Everybody has ancestors who did terrible things. You just haven't looked far enough back.
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At first I thought the idea of going back to city-states would be a cool idea. Then I realized Irvine and Anaheim would have to go to war over control of Orange County. (CA)
PS: Everybody has ancestors who did terrible things. You just haven't looked far enough back.
Nah. Anaheim would beg Los Angeles to take them in. LA would do it too to regain a decent baseball team.
Disneyland would declare themselves their own country.
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Or we could merge South Carolina with North Carolina, because almost everyone not from there thinks they're the same state anyway. Likewise for the Dakotas.Oh heck no. I refuse to be in the same state as those SC barbarians with their mustard based bbq abomination* and cheap fireworks. ;)
*(because only vinegar based pulled pork bbq is the true type of carolina bbq)
Just to clarify, we lowland South Carolinians use a vinegar based sauce as well. It's those a-holes from upstate that think that puke yellow gunk is BBQ sauce. :)
Yup, I zoomed in on the BBQ. Sue me, I'm hungry.
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Everybody has ancestors who did terrible things. You just haven't looked far enough back.
Oh absolutely. I'm sure if I look back far enough, my ancestors pulled some awful s%@@.
That doesn't mean I need to claim responsibility for someone else's ancestors' awful s*#$.
*Worth noting, that I come from a long line of commoners from Ireland who traditionally made up a large number of monks and tavern owners and other small business owners and such, and I'd probably have to go back pretty far before I'd find any big atrocities - though I'm sure some of them did less serious things than genocide, like beating their wives or something, just because that was common for nearly everyone before like, 1900.
My 2 cp.
It is unclear if the Celtic influence introduced into ancient Ireland came through invasion or peaceful trade.
Either way it's likely you have Roman blood from way back, and as impressive as they were, they did some terrible things.
If you trace back all of your grandparents do they all come from Ireland? I know I'm a mix of French, English, Welsh, and Scottish.
My main point is that for thousands of years life was nasty, brutish, and short. All of us are here because at one point our ancestors slew others to ensure their survival. I don't think anyone should have to feel guilt for something our ancestors did, although we should acknowledge the debt our nation owes to the people we have mistreated in the past.
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It is unclear if the Celtic influence introduced into ancient Ireland came through invasion or peaceful trade.
Either way it's likely you have Roman blood from way back, and as impressive as they were, they did some terrible things.
If you trace back all of your grandparents do they all come from Ireland? I know I'm a mix of French, English, Welsh, and Scottish.
One of them is Irish and Scottish.
My main point is that for thousands of years life was nasty, brutish, and short. All of us are here because at one point our ancestors slew others to ensure their survival.
Absolutely. As I said, if you go back far enough with anyone, youd be sure to find something terrible; though there's not much chance of going back that many generations, unless you come from a royal bloodline or something.
I don't think anyone should have to feel guilt for something our ancestors did, although we should acknowledge the debt our nation owes to the people we have mistreated in the past.
I agree that nations are often built atop the ruin of others, and I'm not saying that doesn't matter or should be ignored.
I'm just saying that on the occasion that someone tries to tell me how terrible I am because X group did this, hundreds of years ago, and ties me in with X group just because of my skin color or because of where I live now, I'm inclined to disagree with them about how terrible I am, not inclined to feel the guilt they seem to want me to feel, and I'm inclined to be irritated that they're trying to shoulder the blame for the crimes of someone elses ancestors on me.
The Holocaust was terrible. Black slavery was terrible. Genocide of the native americans was terrible. Native Schools were a terrible atrocity. I acknowledge that, and these atrocities matter. However, they were not my fault, and you can't even pin the blame for these crimes on my ancestors, so I dontappreciate it when someone tries to push guilt on me over them, or rants at me as though it's my fault.
And that, is my point.
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I think we are on the same page, it's all good. I've been reading a lot of ancient history lately, so I've been musing about the rise and fall of ancient empires. What would the world look like if the Aztecs had risen to power and conquered Europe? What if Alexander's Empire had lasted longer? Lot's of interesting possibilities to explore in alternate history RPGs...
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Supposedly my ancestors killed the lost tribe of Israel after they somehow appeared on my continent. Or something like that, the book of Mormon is a bit weird on the particulars.
Now we fleece Texans out of money and water. And all for the perk of not paying taxes to the tribe.
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Black slavery was terrible.But white slavery is A-Okay?!?
LMAO words. dont put them in my mouth.
No white slavery isnt okay either. but last I checked there wasnt much of that in north america, and I was commenting on north american atrocities.
Also, it seems unlikely that I, as a white guy, would be blamed by someone who is currently ranting about white slavery.