|
We are an incredibly young society, (3 months strong) and I love all of my players and GM's. But we are experiencing a big problem. Almost 2/3rds of our society are nothing but fighters who have no desire to use their intelligence or even use patience. The problem with this, is that this causes much frustration and issues with a lot of players in the society that are not fighters, because all the fighters do is kick down doors and steamroll the entire table. And this is the problem with every fighter at every level.
As a coordinator, it's really hard to tell a player "No, you can't bring your fighter cause he steamrolls EVERYTHING." So what do we do to balance fighting players with those who wish to actually play the game?
All flames and thanks are accepted!
|
Hi Lady Ophelia,
You mention that your society is incredibly young (3 months strong). I tend to find that players first characters tend to be rather one-dimensional, as they're unfamiliar with the setting, new to faction missions, and may be new to Pathfinder. They tend to choose safe easy options, perhaps even pregen characters.
Once a players has experienced a few PFS scenarios, maybe bought a sourcebook or two, other ideas will begin to inspire these players, and their second character will tend to have more background, more integrated with the campaign setting, or try an experimental class from another sourcebook, such as Oracle or Witch.
In fact, the pendulum tends to swing like this. Your first wave of characters will tend toward more traditional themes, but once they've advanced to fourth level or so, the next wave of characters will tend to be more experimental, and you may start asking "where are all the fighters? everyone at the table is a spellcaster!"
I think it's just the nature of experience and growth. Before long, the nature of the scenarios should also prompt your players to try other options, as there will be situations, encounters, faction missions they will struggle with, without more diverse or well-rounded characters.
Cheers,
Stephen (DarkWhite)
|
I'll echo Stephen's comments - I had a lot of fighters to start from the newer players, especially those moving from another system to Pathfinder. After a while, you get them developing second characters with all sorts of archtypes and so on. The trick is to recruit a few mroe "newbies" or martial-minded folks who will make fighters to keep that front line solid!
Having 2 or more PCs lets you select a character to match your party - once you have enough folks that aren't regulars, you can never tell who will be at your table.
Sounds like you're doing great - good luck!
|
|
But we are experiencing a big problem. Almost 2/3rds of our society are nothing but fighters who have no desire to use their intelligence or even use patience.
Hold on, is that a PC problem or a player problem? :) Or perhaps people are roleplaying their PC well?
I see no problem with fighters kicking butt. Are you saying they're too good at it? Or are you saying that they turn every challenge into combat challenge?
Here's how I see it.
Problem #1: PFS, especially old scenarios, are far too easy. People can disagree all they like, but it's true and posts like yours just further prove it's a fact.
My home game has a number of experienced players with weak classes (sorceror, ninja, rogue), and they trash everything. If that combo can trash everything, 3 fighters can trash everything.
Problem #2: When there are scenarios that gimp characters (for example melee PCs), these players get upset about it. So it doesn't happen very often.
Problem #3: Players get upset when you throw skill challenges at them they can't complete.
I wish that scenarios were written in such a way that there were multiple ways to complete a task, if you were missing a skill set, the task (combat challenge) doesn't become impossible but it becomes extremely dangerous (which would probably make those PCs happy as well).
Problem #4: In PFS it's beneficial to kill just about anything you meet. My players joke about it all the time. PFS is mostly combat challenges. The non-combat challenges add some damage, but it can be soaked up between encounters with wands.
Problem #5: It's true fighters do a lot of damage. It's also true there are many other classes that can do a lot of damage. At Gen Con I've had Inquisitors, Zen Archer Monks, and Summoners do almost the same damage, but they had much more versatile characters.
So what do we do to balance fighting players with those who wish to actually play the game?
1) Part of "playing the game" is fighting stuff. Fighting players are playing the game.
2) If you have a player that just wants to kill everything, it's more of a problem with the player than the class. How you deal with that is a separate thread.3) If the scenarios are too easy (in combat), ramp them up in some way or ask for more challenge from the organizers.
4) Play more roleplaying orientated scenarios (read reviews and find out which ones are mostly RP).
5) Ask for more scenarios that promote a better mix combat and roleplaying in reviews.
|
|
I think you will see more variety in characters in good time. When we were getting everything started up in Atlanta a year ago, something like 2/3-3/4 of the tables were made up of fighter type classes. That has since melloed out as players have picked out a greater variety of classes. Either because they wanted to play something different, or bought more books and got new ideas. If anything, there seems to be a lack of front line characters running around right now in Atlanta.
As has already been said, running around killing everything they come across will only get them so far. Sooner or later they are going to start to botch faction missions, fight unnecessary encounters, and make missions more difficult than they have to be. Especially when they hit the 7-11 tier stuff they are going to be hurting for a variety of classes and skills.
If anything, there seems to be a lack of front line characters running around right now in Atlanta.
Agreed. Here in California we are usually pretty good about having at least 2 melee characters at each table. I try to make a lot of front liners so that we can flesh out the melee a bit, since it isn't the most interesting role for many players. I wouldn't say it's a problem, since our players are usually good enough to compensate for whatever is missing at the time. I would say that our lack of healers is a much bigger problem. Just tried to stagger through one mod with 4 PCs, no healer, everyone too broke to buy potions, and no one able to use a wand of CLW.
It all tends to balance out eventually, as people realize their favorite roles and get themselves comfortable with the system.
Also, one good thing our local group is doing is making sure they run First Steps periodically to get new characters into the system. Few people want to make the same character twice. Setting up a new round of characters and encouraging players to branch out with new ideas could solve your issue.
|
|
Also, one good thing our local group is doing is making sure they run First Steps periodically to get new characters into the system. Few people want to make the same character twice. Setting up a new round of characters and encouraging players to branch out with new ideas could solve your issue.
You know what is really funny? As soon as I started asking for advice, all of a sudden those PC's who are playing epic fighters are now creating Alchemists, Sorcerers, Gunslingers, and Mangus. Although I am a little nervous about a whole bunch of Alchemists around, I am sure it will make for an interesting weekend when the characters are debuted.
|
You know what is really funny? As soon as I started asking for advice, all of a sudden those PC's who are playing epic fighters are now creating Alchemists, Sorcerers, Gunslingers, and Mangus. Although I am a little nervous about a whole bunch of Alchemists around, I am sure it will make for an interesting weekend when the characters are debuted.
A table full of alchemists is a recipe for hilarity.
|
|
I'll second what others are saying; it is a self-regulating issue, and soon you may be begging for fighters! We go through a similar phase with our new players here in Edmonton. But in time many start looking around for different challenges and try out new classes.
And I would personally love to GM a table of nothing but alchemists. How could that be anything but hilarious?
|
There are several scenarios where being smashy smashy will get people into a lot of trouble. If you think your players are going overboard you could use these as learning experiences.
I'd suggest:
** spoiler omitted **
My Fighter moved up, and tripped the Cleric of S when he got into reach, then disarmed him with the AoO provoked. Our rogue then moved up, grabbing the Cleric's weapon (which had landed BEHIND my character, thanks to Greater Disarm and a lucky die roll), and offered it back to the Cleric while convincing the Cleric that not everything was what it appeared. Combat over. Different and fun.
Another fun time was had during a game I played online the other day, not because of the specific module, but because of th slightly bizarre party composition:
Oracle (Lore)
Bard
Bard/Rogue
Fighter (Lore Warden) (Whip was his weapon)
Cleric (Luck)
I can say fairly that we definitely had all the Knowledge skills covered. Overcovered, really. Some of the fights took a while, since none of us had a really high minimum damage output, and several of the encounters featured opponents with hardness or DR, but we won through, even though we had PCs going down during a couple of the fights. "Charge of the Knowledge Brigade", indeed.
As mentioned, and as you have experienced, as people play more, they will branch out their PCs, and you will wind up with parties without either meat shields or high DPR PCs.
And, just to wind up with a bad joke, I think a party of all alchemists would be da bomb. ;)
|
There are several scenarios where being smashy smashy will get people into a lot of trouble. If you think your players are going overboard you could use these as learning experiences.
I'd suggest:
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
Another fun time was had during a game I played online the other day, not because of the specific module, but because of th slightly bizarre party composition:
Oracle (Lore)
Bard
Bard/Rogue
Fighter (Lore Warden) (Whip was his weapon)
Cleric (Luck)I can say fairly that we definitely had all the Knowledge skills covered. Overcovered, really. Some of the fights took a while, since none of us had a really high minimum damage output, and several of the encounters featured opponents with hardness or DR, but we won through, even though we had PCs going down during a couple of the fights. "Charge of the Knowledge Brigade", indeed.
As mentioned, and as you have experienced, as people play more, they will branch out their PCs, and you will wind up with parties without either meat shields or high DPR PCs.
And, just to wind up with a bad joke, I think a party of all alchemists would be da bomb. ;)
I used that as an example of a mod where being an aggressive fighter type is a bad idea not for the fights ;)