I can see how it has extreme utility for a Magus, and it's a natural feat in the prep for Duelist (and of course, Dawnflower Dervish). But I fail to see how it's especially useful for other classes. If you can use it, it's because you're a druid (who doesn't do much fighting in his own form), or a class that's much more likely to have a strength that's higher than their dex anyway. And yet I see Dervish Dance on the short list of feats people seem to center builds around on these boards. Am I missing something?
Why have high Str when you can have high Dex instead?
I can see how it has extreme utility for a Magus, and it's a natural feat in the prep for Duelist (and of course, Dawnflower Dervish). But I fail to see how it's especially useful for other classes. If you can use it, it's because you're a druid (who doesn't do much fighting in his own form), or a class that's much more likely to have a strength that's higher than their dex anyway. And yet I see Dervish Dance on the short list of feats people seem to center builds around on these boards. Am I missing something?
Because it is a way to make finesse characters work, on a similar power level to non-finesse characters. It is a popular concept.
Add to that the status of dexterity as being something of a god stat(several of skills, + to hit, + to damage, + ac, + reflex.) means that good finesse characters are very good.
For me, its an attractive Feat entirely because of style. I vastly prefer the idea of a nimble, skill based fighter to a brutish, strength based one... Dervish Dance lets the little guy compete.
hmmm, where is this feat?
hmmm, where is this feat?
Inner Sea World Guide. I think its on d20pfsrd as well.
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For me, its an attractive Feat entirely because of style. I vastly prefer the idea of a nimble, skill based fighter to a brutish, strength based one... Dervish Dance lets the little guy compete.
I know that the comparison I'm about to draw is coincidental, but after Drizzt I'm completely burnt out on nimble scimitar wielding fighters. I know Paizo created this feat because of their love for Saranrae (evidenced by all of the dawnflower references in feats, traits, modules, pregens, campaign stories from the devs, etc...)
Regardless of origin, I honestly would prefer that any weapon that can be used with weapon finesse would function with this feat. Failing that, I'd rather see the feat not exist at all. We already see far more scimitars than I'd prefer. To have it be the ONLY weapon that gets this benefit makes me groan every time a 'new'
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I can see how it has extreme utility for a Magus,
For an equally valid (and stylistically pleasing) alternative, try the katana wielding, strength based bladebound-kensai magus. Intelligence replaces dex for AC, init, and provides many other benefits. You can basically dump dex and only have AC issues at the very lowest of levels. By 10th, you're a beast.
For me, its an attractive Feat entirely because of style. I vastly prefer the idea of a nimble, skill based fighter to a brutish, strength based one... Dervish Dance lets the little guy compete.I know that the comparison I'm about to draw is coincidental, but after Drizzt I'm completely burnt out on nimble scimitar wielding fighters. I know Paizo created this feat because of their love for Saranrae (evidenced by all of the dawnflower references in feats, traits, modules, pregens, campaign stories from the devs, etc...)
Regardless of origin, I honestly would prefer that any weapon that can be used with weapon finesse would function with this feat. Failing that, I'd rather see the feat not exist at all. We already see far more scimitars than I'd prefer. To have it be the ONLY weapon that gets this benefit makes me groan every time a 'new' ** spoiler omitted ** build is posted.
Agile Weapon enhancement from... Pathfinder Society Field Guide?... allows for this as well.
And while I do wish there were a 'Greater Weapon Finesse' feat or something, there has been plenty of time for such a thing to appear (and lots of demand for it), yet it hasn't been printed.
So yeah.
Meanwhile, STR governs your carrying capacity, and that's about it.
Note: even with all you mentioned, Strength has several mechanical advantages over Dex, Dervish Dance included.
First, its cheaper; you dont need two feats to enable it for damage, which is probably the most important combat stat (dead enemies can't hit your AC, force saves, etc), and it also covers hitting.
Second, related to the first, is that it is more efficient than Dex; two handing a weapon gets you 1.5xStr mod to damage, which cannot to this point be reproduced with Dexterity.
Third, Dex characters dont actually get better AC, especially at low levels. Full Plate is +10 (including a +1 dex), whereas a Dex 18 guy is looking at an +8 max in mundane armor, or a +9 with similar investment. This turns around a bit if you can include stuff like Celestial Chain, but thats a long way off. Strength supports heavier armor better as well.
If you've got the dex and you need to add damage, wouldn't it be better to just go two-weapon fighting as a feat after weapon finesse? adding 1d4+any str bonus you DO have + magic weapon, etc instead of a +5 or +6 from a stupid high dex?
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Third, Dex characters dont actually get better AC, especially at low levels. Full Plate is +10 (including a +1 dex), whereas a Dex 18 guy is looking at an +8 max in mundane armor, or a +9 with similar investment. This turns around a bit if you can include stuff like Celestial Chain, but thats a long way off. Strength supports heavier armor better as well.
Provided the DEX character doesn't MAD-stat, he will always have even or better AC:
Intro STR18/DEX12 (couplet build cost 12pt) - Scale + two-hander; AC 16
Intro STR7/DEX19 (couplet built cost 11pt) - Studded + buckler; AC 18
4th-level: tank in MW full plate (1800) is AC 20; other in +1 mithral shirt (2000) w/DEX>18 @ 4th for AC 21.
4000gp later, tank buys STR belt while other buys DEX belt (and tank is now -2 AC behind).
2000gp later, tank buys MW > +1 upgrade; other spends 2000 on Ring.
2000gp later, tank buys Ring; other buys Amulet.
(Tank still -2 behind, but begins pulling even in mid-levels as other saves money.)
23,000 later; tank upgraded +1 >>> +5; DEX-fighter buys Celestial.
Not necessarily. If you're a caster, you'll usually want a free hand for casting, so TWF is out. If you're not a full BAB character, you may not be able to support the -2 to hit from dual wielding. If you're not routinely making full attacks, you'd rather have Dex to damage than Str.
Plus, of course, you can spend the feats for Dervish Dance, TWF, and Improved Unarmed Strike and do both.
If you're a caster, unless you're a cleric or inquisitor of sarenrae, you don't have scimitar proficiency (again, except for druid, which, if you're in human form, you're not doing it right).
Also let's not forget you're also spending 2 skill points on an otherwise useless skill. No cleric I've ever played has had skill points to spare.
I'm not saying it's useless; I'm just surprised to see so many people talking about it in terms of optimization.
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Third, Dex characters dont actually get better AC, especially at low levels. Full Plate is +10 (including a +1 dex), whereas a Dex 18 guy is looking at an +8 max in mundane armor, or a +9 with similar investment. This turns around a bit if you can include stuff like Celestial Chain, but thats a long way off. Strength supports heavier armor better as well.Provided the DEX character doesn't MAD-stat, he will always have even or better AC:
Intro STR18/DEX12 (couplet build cost 12pt) - Scale + two-hander; AC 16
Intro STR7/DEX19 (couplet built cost 11pt) - Studded + buckler; AC 184th-level: tank in MW full plate (1800) is AC 20; other in +1 mithral shirt (2000) w/DEX>18 @ 4th for AC 21.
4000gp later, tank buys STR belt while other buys DEX belt (and tank is now -2 AC behind).
2000gp later, tank buys MW > +1 upgrade; other spends 2000 on Ring.
2000gp later, tank buys Ring; other buys Amulet.
(Tank still -2 behind, but begins pulling even in mid-levels as other saves money.)
23,000 later; tank upgraded +1 >>> +5; DEX-fighter buys Celestial.
Your Dex guy is using a shield while the other is using a 2h with high Str. The damage difference between the two is massive. So yes, 2 AC more on Scimitar guy for the cost of inferior damage and 2 Feats. But 2h guy could just as easily go with a 1h and a Heavy Shield which equalises AC while at the same time doing the same kind of damage
By 15th level, a straight classed fighter can benefit from a +7 in his Dex bonus while wearing mithral full plate.
That's an 18 starting with a +6 Dex item.
So really, armor isn't a limiter anymore for the fighter.
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Your Dex guy is using a shield while the other is using a 2h with high Str. The damage difference between the two is massive. So yes, 2 AC more on Scimitar guy for the cost of inferior damage and 2 Feats.
I never said he was using a scimitar, or that he was straight rogue (or whatever other build is starved for feats).
barb2/figh4/XYZ doesn't necessarily mean "high STR"; it could be barb[urban] who TWFs Agile weapons.
Provided the DEX character doesn't MAD-stat, he will always have even or better AC:
My bad. I was assuming Dervish Dance at low levels, and therefore no shield.
And Agile weapons aren't a consideration till what, level 6-7 at best?
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A Dervish is not prohibited from using a buckler (only shields held in the hand; bucklers are strapped to the forearm).Provided the DEX character doesn't MAD-stat, he will always have even or better AC:My bad. I was assuming Dervish Dance at low levels, and therefore no shield.
And Agile weapons aren't a consideration till what, level 6-7 at best?
In home games, money is the problem; in PFS, acquiring Fame is the delay-factor. In either case, you have to be creative at low-levels. E.g., my samurai trips opponents with shang gou when they're next to his horse (which then takes its three attacks against a prone target).
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You've still burned a lot of feats, 2 skill points, and are doing a fraction of the damage.
First, Dex guy can't wear a buckler with this feat.
Second, first and second level Dex guy stays back doing d8 with a crossbow. Strength guy does 2d6+6, or d12+6 with reach.
Then Dex guy gets the feat. Now he hits for d6+4, where strength guy hits for 2d6+6. Later on Pirannah VS power attack Str guy gets 3 damage, Dex guy gets 2.
Unless you have to keep a hand open (Duelist, Magus), you should not build for this. You end up wasting 2 levels being bad, to end up with a very low damage output character with little room for growth (though admittingly agile).
First, Dex guy can't wear a buckler with (Dervish Dance).Yes they can; bucklers don't use a hand.
O snap, that's a can of worms right there. That is how I read the feat as well, but many claim that would be too broken. Which, as just discussed, I don't think a buckler on a Dervish Dance would be at all broken.
Some even go so far as say you cant use unarmed strike their. Since that would be using your off-hand. However, I think if the feat didn't want you to use unarmed strikes it probably would have out right said not too by saying "natural attacks" since that still means creatures with bite could still use this just fine.
Since bucklers specifically state they don't take an off-hand, I don't know how you could take that as a shield being in your off hand. Heck, you could even twist the rules saying that the shield hand is your main hand. and nothing is in your off-hand. I would gladly take a -1 to attack rolls.
You've still burned a lot of feats, 2 skill points, and are doing a fraction of the damage.
First, Dex guy can't wear a buckler with this feat.
Second, first and second level Dex guy stays back doing d8 with a crossbow. Strength guy does 2d6+6, or d12+6 with reach.
Then Dex guy gets the feat. Now he hits for d6+4, where strength guy hits for 2d6+6. Later on Pirannah VS power attack Str guy gets 3 damage, Dex guy gets 2.
Unless you have to keep a hand open (Duelist, Magus), you should not build for this. You end up wasting 2 levels being bad, to end up with a very low damage output character with little room for growth (though admittingly agile).
It is also a good way to go for any class that relies on sneak attack. It lets you dump strength completely and still have solid damage when you are not flanking. When you are flanking, your damage can get pretty amazing.
Also, a lot of sneak attack classes are also light armor classes, so the extra AC from having a higher dex is much appreciated.
And it is a feat for high Dex characters, there is no point in thinking about why a fighter that can wear heavy armor isn't using it, the question is why isn't every multiclass rogue using it.
Sneak attacking with two weapon fighting is better? Unless you are allowed to use unarmed strike as part of TWF with this feat. :p
I think bards would benefit better, since they would want to get perform anyway, and are already having to split several stats.
Well, the appeal is that Dex is the better stat, it does more. If it didn't cost feats at all, I know which I'd prefer. As it does, it's merely a strong option.
Though I believe it should be an option for all weapons that can be finessed.
7 Str? Better be a Dwarf because you can barely function in your equipment due to encumbrance.
And too many things do strength damage/penalty to go that low. One hit to Str and you collapse under your equipment.
"Ignore him, he can't move. Let's get that caster over there!"
There are also many situations where you need brute strength.
"Anybody want to get this chest of gold here? Anybody? Little help..."
I'm not saying somebody else might not be the 'strong' guy, but that every party needs a strong person (or Eidolon/etc.)
So who, if not the melee guy?
And yes, you can devote magic and resources to overcome this, but that's hard at early levels and another knock against this feat.
I seldom dump Str, even when I'm an arcane caster. I like carrying things, and being able to move things (like downed allies).
And I'm more than a little afraid of Shadows.
BTW, I love this feat except for the fact it channels everybody into scimitar. But I wouldn't take it if there wasn't somebody strong to do all them strong-guy tasks.
To the OP: I think so many builds have erupted because of a pent up desire to build a Dex warrior who doesn't need outside help (i.e. Sneak Attack). It's a flavor that's been difficult to build without sacrifice.
First of all to those saying that with dervish dance you can dump STR, yes sure you can but if you want increased damage you have to have a minimum of STR 13 for power attack (you can't use piranha strike with a scimitar). Of course with agile weapons this isn't the case.
About the book this feat is in and hasn't been printed in other books i have to say that there is a very good reason (IMO) that they haven't reprinted in a book from the rpg pathfinder rpg line*.
*If my guess is correct of course.
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Forgot about the Pirannah ruling. Yeah, that makes it worse.
Any character taking it / dumping strength basically acknowledges being terrible for 2 levels. You go into medium encumbrance from basic chain shirts; you have to wait for mithril.
I do have a summoner with a 7 strength. He gets 1 net and a mithril chain shirt and that's it (Eidilon carries the rest). Imagine trying to sneak off with stuff as a rogue. I haven't done the calcs; can anyone confirm if you can carry a scimitar and mithril chain shirt? I think you can, but almost nothing else.
But ignore the encumbrance. You got to gain the, call it 7 points, by having a 7 strength instead of a PA ready 13. Now at 3rd your dervish gets his damage to... D6+4. Even if he sneak attacks, it's 3d6+4... still less than that 1st level power attacking fighter (2d6+9).
If I wanted to build 20-point Str-dump guy, I'd build a monk. At 4th (for 5K) I'd have an amulet of agile strikes. Picture this:
Human Monk
Str: 7
Int: 7
Wis: 16
Dex: 20
Con: 16
Chr: 7
(We'll ignore arguments on how bad stat dump is for now)
1st - Agile Manuvers, Weapon Finessee, Improved Trip
2nd - Improved Grapple
3rd - Combat Reflexes
For the first 3 levels, he has a respectable AC (18, 22 if Mage is nice) and generally tries to pin down opponents.
At 4, he is a flurrying monster, dealing d6+5 thanks to his new amulet (2 attacks). He typically picks the most threatening enemy and grapples him down.
If you want to so things a little differently, pick sensei with this build. At 2nd you get wisdom to damage, and have bardsong (for that build I would 18 Dex and Wis instead of 16/20). Then you can use the amulet slot for others.
Advantage is he has no reason to carry anything, and is powerful much faster. There's "Dexman" for ya :).
To the OP: I think so many builds have erupted because of a pent up desire to build a Dex warrior who doesn't need outside help (i.e. Sneak Attack).
Nailed it.
Personally I think we need a bit of a clear up on the intent of this feat.
Does it work with Unarmed Strike.
Does it work with a buckler.
Does it work with Spell Strike of the Magus.
I ask this because I feel that the answers can go either way on how people interpret a word or a line in a sentence.
I believe JJ has said he would allow it to work with Spell Strike but what I can gather that would be a house rule.
Personally I think we need a bit of a clear up on the intent of this feat.
Does it work with Unarmed Strike.
Does it work with a buckler.
Does it work with Spell Strike of the Magus.
I ask this because I feel that the answers can go either way on how people interpret a word or a line in a sentence.
I believe JJ has said he would allow it to work with Spell Strike but what I can gather that would be a house rule.
About the spell combat+spellstrike+dervish dance, from what i remember James Jacobs didn't give a definite answer when he was asked that question (irrc he said it could be either way) and since we don't have a FAQ on that then we have to make judgement calls, personally i think that they work just fine.
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Nobody debates the power of the Dex-magus; truth be told any non-elven Dex/int magus with non-dumped strength is suboptimal. Damage on a magus is mostly spell based, and as they cannot take advantage of the 2nd hand in any way, it is to their advantage. Same is true of free hand fighters / duelist.
Basically hands are very valuable in pathfinder; acting as 2nd weapons, grasping weapons for extra damage, or holding shields (I would rule having a buckler active and not just strapped to your wrist does use the hand; but it could use official note; that would make the feat at least minorly better if it can use with a buckler).
So if you are NOT forced to give up that hand, giving it up for a damage boost is not the right approach; you get strength and grasp a sword and PA.
I do agree this feat needs official errata; though currently it is just grandfathered in and PFS legal. I know James is a big fan of Dex-based fighters being better, so hopefully we'll get a new version soon.
First of all to those saying that with dervish dance you can dump STR, yes sure you can but if you want increased damage you have to have a minimum of STR 13 for power attack (you can't use piranha strike with a scimitar). Of course with agile weapons this isn't the case.
About the book this feat is in and hasn't been printed in other books i have to say that there is a very good reason (IMO) that they haven't reprinted in a book from the rpg pathfinder rpg line*.
*If my guess is correct of course.
There are other ways of getting power attack. Take 2 levels of ranger, and get power attack as a bonus feat. This lets you ignore the pre-reqs.
There are other ways of getting power attack. Take 2 levels of ranger, and get power attack as a bonus feat. This lets you ignore the pre-reqs.First of all to those saying that with dervish dance you can dump STR, yes sure you can but if you want increased damage you have to have a minimum of STR 13 for power attack (you can't use piranha strike with a scimitar). Of course with agile weapons this isn't the case.
About the book this feat is in and hasn't been printed in other books i have to say that there is a very good reason (IMO) that they haven't reprinted in a book from the rpg pathfinder rpg line*.
*If my guess is correct of course.
Two handed weapon style correct? Hmmmm..... Although not practical for a lot of characters it's a good thing to have in mind for weird cases.
And it is a feat for high Dex characters, there is no point in thinking about why a fighter that can wear heavy armor isn't using it, the question is why isn't every multiclass rogue using it.Sneak attacking with two weapon fighting is better? Unless you are allowed to use unarmed strike as part of TWF with this feat. :p
I think bards would benefit better, since they would want to get perform anyway, and are already having to split several stats.
The problem with bards is that they don't get scimitar profiency....
The only bard that can really use this feat is the dervish dancer since they trade whip profiency for scimitar.