I've joined a campaign that has gotten to 16th level, which is by FAR the highest level I've ever played. At first I built a camel-riding paladin, but the setting and general uselessness of the paladin (can't even convert anyone, that's taken care of by the cleric) has convinced me to switch characters.
Now I'd like to try an elven rogue in the hope of actually being useful for a change. Elven due to campaign concerns, rogue because we already have a fighter and a ranger and I'm nervous about remembering all the options at this level for other classes. But I've never really run a high-level character besides the fiasco that was the paladin, so I could really use some advice on an awesome build, from stats to feats to magical equipment. OR an alternate class build if the rogue turns out to be a bad choice.
Can anyone help me out? Most splatbooks are acceptable I think, assuming either I or our gaming club have them (which is likely). The new adventure starts on Monday. Piles of internet cookies for everyone who helps! :)
What were the last 10 opponents you faced? We need to know how many of them were vulnerable to sneak attack. Might be zero, in which case rogue is a terrible idea.
I played my 3.5 rogue to 15th level, and the idea that some monsters are immune to my main class abilities was frustrating. I'm glad pathfinder fixed this. Imagine being a wizard, and fighting only in anti-magic fields.
You will also need the darkstalker feat from lords of madness. Stealth should work, and you need the feat to overcome all the senses that high-level opponents bring.
Rogue benefits from mult-classing some. A class that allows martial weapons is good, as are classes that add hit dice or strenghen poor saves. There are also good prestige classes for rogues out there. I like Nightsong Enforcer, personally.
And, if you think you will e er be in a fight, start with at least a 14 con. Strength is useful too. Poorly Built rogues focus on DEx and INT, and neglect all the rest Then they find themselves doing d6 +2 against a foe with DR 10, and wonder why they are losing.
And for equipment, you MUST be able to overcome DR. I would recommend a +1 silver light mace with undead bane and probably ghost touch as your back up weapon.
Holy is a good choice as well, evil is pretty common.
Take a look at the magic item compendium, lots of good rogue choices there.
There is plenty of good rogue advice out there. Check out the brilliant gameologists for 3.5 rogue help. Most important, though, os to decide how you will fight. Use feats to get there, that is why you have them.
Able to sneak attack is vital - Either a True death crystal from Magic Item Compendium which requires a +3 weapon or better, or there's an option from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft that allows you to trade trap sense for half sneak attack damage to undead (let me know if you require more info). Undead are the major immune to SA enemy.
If you are going the elf and Dex route go arcane trickster, those mage levels will do wonders for you, don't forget the elven generalist option from Races of the Wild. Personally, I've been itching to play a half-orc rogue with uber strength and a longspear for a while. Fighter levels, mostly for feats are a boon. The longspear keeps you a square away from kicking distance, and potions of enlarge person combined with Combat Reflexes give you a huge advantage (pun intended).
If you think your d6 hit dice will hold up to what you've been fighting recently, the two-weapon rogue may have the best damage per round. Another option is the scout class, which gives the equivalent of SA, but only if you move 10' or more beore the attack.
Final bit of advice, don't rely solely on invisibilty. Too many things have true sight of some form or another. Flanking is key, along with Bluff. The arcane trickster works well because it can just declare a sneak attack. A Rog 3/Wiz 5/AT 8 can do a disintegrate for 26d6+6d6 or 5d6+6d6 on a succesful save.
Sorry I wasn't on yesterday, I had guests and couldn't be online. And thanks for the awesome advice! I'm a little leery of trading Trap Sense for SA damage because I figure traps are pretty much all that differentiates my rogue from the rest of the party, and we haven't met many undead so far (but our DM cycles and adventures change regularly, so that's no guarantee.) Is Trap Sense really that useless?
The arcane trickster sounds interesting, but again it counts on a better knowledge of the casting rules and spells than I have. Still, that disintegrate sounds good... I forget, do you take multiclassing xp penalties for prestige classes?
The last opponents we faces were an orc army (complete with shamans, trolls and dire boar riders) that were defeated primarily by the cleric's spells and us holding a chokepoint until reinforcements arrived; dimension-hopping werewolves that were a curse the cleric lifted, after which the ranger slaughtered the werewolves; an ogre mage in a goblin market and a bunch of giants in a giant castle; and a dungeon with some undead and a demon boss fight. As you can see, it's kind of all over the place. From what I last heard, our next adventure will consist of a rite of atonement for the cleric for what he had to do to get to the demon.
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I'm a little leery of trading Trap Sense for SA damage because I figure traps are pretty much all that differentiates my rogue from the rest of the party, and we haven't met many undead so far (but our DM cycles and adventures change regularly, so that's no guarantee.) Is Trap Sense really that useless?
Generally speaking, yes. However it does depend on your DM's style. I personally don't use a lot of traps in my game, so Trap Sense rarely comes into play. It is a safe bet that in general, you will run into SA-immune enemies more often than traps. (Based off of your group using 3.5 rules for immunities. PF removed the SA-immunity from many of the monsters, and so makes it less important to have ways around it.)
I have to admit we haven't really run into any traps so far, or at least not the kind a rogue could disable (though this could be because there was no rogue in the party...). OK, I'm sold - more SA for me!
I've kind of been suckered in by the Shadowdancer PC, and I'm thinking of going rogue 6/shadowdancer 10. My final rolled and modded-for-race-and-level stats are Str 18, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 10. Is this a spectacularly bad idea? What equipment would you recommend (normal WBL)?
More than two levels of shadow dancer is a spectacularly bad idea. You become a rogue who can't sneak attack.
Whatever you're getting, it isn't worth it.
Use the rogue archtypes to trade something for evasion. That way, when you get evasion from Shadowdancer, you actually benefit.
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I'd go with:
+1 light fortification mithril chain shirt
+2 mithril buckler
hewards handy haversack
+3 weapon
+3 backup weapon
vest of resistance +3
eyes of the eagle
belt of con +2
and see where you are after that.
In general, you'll need a way to fly, a way to deal with invisible creature, a way to become invisible, a melee attack, a ranged attack, and a way to deal with grapple (dim door is good)
I have a habit of letting concept get in the way of build, so this will be interesting for me. Thanks for your help and good advice, everyone! :D *brings piles of internet cookies for everyone*
Well if you are still looking for ideas you might want a swashbuckler (from complete warrior) mixed with rogue. There is a feat in complete scoundrel (I think) that lets your levels for the two stack for sneak attack and the swashbuckler's REF and dodge bonuses. Swashbuckler would give you martial weapons and a higher hit die (d10) as well as that dodge bonus (works just like the feat but it is a higher bonus and can stack with the feat), full BAB, a good FORT save, at level 3 you add your INT to damage for finesse weapons (precision damage, so no affecting SA-resistant enemies), and if you take it up a few more levels you get some nice stuff (improved flanking at level 8 gives a +4 when flanking rather than +2). Downsides are loss of skill points (4+ INT instead of 8+ but assume a high INT character cause it provides bonus damage), rogue special abilities and trap sense.
So yeah, I'd say go for 8 levels of swashbuckler, 8 of rogue and take up that feat. You'd end up with BAB 14, FORT 8, REF 10 (base 8 but the restrictions on the swashbuckler boost are negligible), WILL 4, full SA dice for your level, +3 dodge bonus to AC (any one enemy at a time), INT to damage and some other goodies.
Also, no reason a swashbuckler can't be a TWF. So my feat selection would go there. In fact, pump INT more than STR. The insightful strike works on all attacks, meaning your off-hand gains the same bonus as main hand.
Hmm, that IS interesting. Heh, I have like 3 different builds for the same character now! Now to see what the DM will allow...
The good news is that we use extensive house rules, so I'll be getting at least one extra feat (possibly two, depending on how "expensive" they decide the feats are) and a pile of extra skill points. No complaints here! I'm looking at you, Improved Critical with my vorpal elven courtblade...
But doesn't Insightful Strike work with WIS, not INT?
*edit* Oops, wrong idea I had there. NM.
Well I was thinking the biggest problem with mine was being feat starved (though at least the SB gets weapon finesse for free), but those extra feats would help. A lot.
A couple nice magic items to pick up. In addition to the true death crystal, demolition crystal which works against constructs. The greater form is only 6k (true death is 10k, btw), you deal 1d6 extra damage, weapon is adamantine for purposes of DR and you can SA (still needs a +3 enhancement bonus weapon). Pick up anklets of translocation. They are cheap and they allow you to teleport 10 feet as a swift action 2 or 3 times a day.
A couple nice magic items to pick up. In addition to the true death crystal, demolition crystal which works against constructs. The greater form is only 6k (true death is 10k, btw), you deal 1d6 extra damage, weapon is adamantine for purposes of DR and you can SA (still needs a +3 enhancement bonus weapon). Pick up anklets of translocation. They are cheap and they allow you to teleport 10 feet as a swift action 2 or 3 times a day.
*drool* Man, there's never enough money, feat slots or skill points. Keeps us hungry. *g*
A couple nice magic items to pick up. In addition to the true death crystal, demolition crystal which works against constructs. The greater form is only 6k (true death is 10k, btw), you deal 1d6 extra damage, weapon is adamantine for purposes of DR and you can SA (still needs a +3 enhancement bonus weapon). Pick up anklets of translocation. They are cheap and they allow you to teleport 10 feet as a swift action 2 or 3 times a day.*drool* Man, there's never enough money, feat slots or skill points. Keeps us hungry. *g*
Well the TWF is really the tough part here. It costs a lot of feats and a lot of gold. If your off hand weapon isn't on par with the main hand it is essentially useless. The way I see this, you would probably want to go with two +3 weapons for the access of greater weapon augment crystals. As I said, two separate cyrstals are necessary for dealing with constructs and undead, and of course, you need two of each if you are TWF. Also, if you want to get keen that's another +1, so you would spend 64k for the weapons and 32k for 2 each of those two crystals. However, if you really want damage output, you have to invest in your weapons.
If you want to be more of a skills rogue with some combat ability, I'd still suggest the SB. If you take first level in rogue your average skill points per level are still better than the ranger and you should have a higher INT so that bumps them up too. You average the same hitpoints as the ranger, and same armor so your survivability in melee is just as good. That gives you access to a lot more feats and a lot more money because you only need to enhance one main weapon (or at least buy fewer crystals). SBs also get an ability at (I think) 7th that allows a charge over difficult terrain with the use of tumble and jump checks, so you can make a nice mobile striker.
The other thing that would be a help is UMD. You have a cleric who should have some buffing ability but there are other things you will want. If you don't have any arcane caster UMD allows you to cast a few nice spells. Hell, you don't even need keen at that point, just stock up on keen edge spells.