The following most probably constitute spoilers... considered yourselves warned!
My group is about to enter Harrowstone so I went through all the possible threats they might encounter so that I become familiarised with them before I actually run the game and I came accross a few things I'm not so certain about. So...
Concerning Gurtis Vortch (pg. 44):
a) Since he's blind he should be denied his Dex bonus to his AC (and it seems to be the case). Shouldn't he be denied the Dodge bonus to his AC as well? Furthermore, two of his feats, Dodge and Mobility, are negated due to his blindness. Is this a deliberate action so that to weaken him?
b) If (a) is not correct due to his Blind-Fight feat (interpreting the feat description as "since he's blind everyone is invisible to him"), shouldn't he retain his Dex bonus to his AC?
c) Does he need to concentrate in order to use Deathwatch? The spell description does not mention anything like this, but if not, why is there a concentration value for him? Does this imply that it can be disrupted?
d) Lastly, how can he get the Weapon Specialisation feat when he's only 3rd-level fighter (feat prerequisite is 4th-level fighter)?
Concerning the Mourning Maiden (pg. 49):
What method would you say would lift its curse? Destroying the haunt? Suppressing it? Remove Curse?
Concerning the Splatter Man (pg. 52):
a) How can he use Hand of the Apprentice on the items in the oubliette since he can't wield them?
b) Am I correct in assuming that he cannot use his Metamagic Mastery ability on either Empower or Maximize spell (since he only has 1 use of the ability per day)?
Thanks a lot for any insight on the above!
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Marios wrote: The following most probably constitute spoilers... considered yourselves warned!
My group is about to enter Harrowstone so I went through all the possible threats they might encounter so that I become familiarised with them before I actually run the game and I came accross a few things I'm not so certain about. So...
A) RAW would cause him to lose that dodge bonus except for (B). I wouldn't argue it's to "weaken" him, but it just makes sense for the story.
B) The writer stated that his stats are adjusted for the deathwatch bonus & Blind fight. He's "Story" edited, which means he probably won't follow standard RAW.
C) No, I can think of no reason to list that stat. I'd assume there is some way to combat it that I'm not immediately aware of that would involve concentration.
d) RAW he wouldn't since I'm not aware of skeleton champion HD's counting as fighter HD's, but once again writer's have liberty.
Mourning Maiden: RAW Remove Curse. Me, I'd say when they cleanse Harrowstone thus destroying all haunts, or by destroying every torture device.
A) Non-proficiency doesn't mean you can't wield it, just means you take a penalty.
B)He's a wizard, they're already built into his memorized spell list. He can't adjust on the fly like a sorcerer can.
ThornDJL7 wrote:
A) RAW would cause him to lose that dodge bonus except for (B). I wouldn't argue it's to "weaken" him, but it just makes sense for the story.
B) The writer stated that his stats are adjusted for the deathwatch bonus & Blind fight. He's "Story" edited, which means he probably won't follow standard RAW.
My main problem here is that by RAW Dodge bonuses are closely tied to Dexterity bonuses - by definition. I really can't see any story reason to deviate from this core rule, but being a newbie Pathfinder GM (albeit experienced in D&D) I thought that I may be wrong. I'd like to get as firm a grasp of the rules as I can muster and that's what prompted my queries.
I believe that I'll rule this as him not losing his Dex bonus vs melee attacks and that any Dodge bonuses he might get apply only to melee attacks (all of the above due to his Blind-Fight feat)
ThornDJL7 wrote:
C) No, I can think of no reason to list that stat. I'd assume there is some way to combat it that I'm not immediately aware of that would involve concentration.
Actually I did find a way to combat this ability. Quoting from the PRD for the Bestiary: "Constant spell-like abilities function at all times but can be dispelled. A creature can reactivate a constant spell-like ability as a swift action".
Not that the party in Harrowstone would have access to Dispel Magic, but I thought it'd be nice to know as a general rule.
ThornDJL7 wrote:
A) Non-proficiency doesn't mean you can't wield it, just means you take a penalty.
B)He's a wizard, they're already built into his memorized spell list. He can't adjust on the fly like a sorcerer can.
TSM can't wield the mentioned items because he's incorporeal and they do not have the ghost touch ability. So, how can he use hand of the apprentice to throw them since he can't wield them?
Furthermore, the metamagic mastery ability allows a wizard to apply a metamagic feat on the fly (Core Rulebook, Universalist School). If I understand correct though, TSM is not high enough level to apply the ability to Empower or Maximise spell, right?
Marios wrote: TSM can't wield the mentioned items because he's incorporeal and they do not have the ghost touch ability. So, how can he use hand of the apprentice to throw them since he can't wield them?
Furthermore, the metamagic mastery ability allows a wizard to apply a metamagic feat on the fly (Core Rulebook, Universalist School). If I understand correct though, TSM is not high enough level to apply the ability to Empower or Maximise spell, right?
Hand of the apprentice is him using magic. Incorporeal creature can not physically(using their bodies) affect physical objects.
As for empower and maximize that depends on the spell it is affecting. For magic missle he is good to go.
Magic Missile is a first level spell
Empower forces it to take up a 3rd level slot.
Maximize forces it to take up a 4th level slot.
7th level wizards have access to 4th level slots, and TSM is an 8th level wizard so has no problem applying those metamagic abilities.
Marios wrote:
Concerning the Splatter Man (pg. 52):
a) How can he use Hand of the Apprentice on the items in the oubliette since he can't wield them?
b) Am I correct in assuming that he cannot use his Metamagic Mastery ability on either Empower or Maximize spell (since he only has 1 use of the ability per day)?
Thanks a lot for any insight on the above!
You are correct on both of these. SM can not wield corporeal weapons using his Hand of Apprentice ability. He can not Empower or Maximize his spells using Metamagic Mastery (although I don't see any reference in the text suggesting he do this).
wraithstrike wrote:
Hand of the apprentice is him using magic. Incorporeal creature can not physically(using their bodies) affect physical objects.
However the PRD does state "Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp"
cibet44 wrote: wraithstrike wrote:
Hand of the apprentice is him using magic. Incorporeal creature can not physically(using their bodies) affect physical objects.
However the PRD does state "Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp" Good catch. I think think it was an oversight, on the part of the writer.
PS:Did TSM even have a weapon? I ran it, but I don't remember one being mentioned.
wraithstrike wrote: Marios wrote: TSM can't wield the mentioned items because he's incorporeal and they do not have the ghost touch ability. So, how can he use hand of the apprentice to throw them since he can't wield them?
Furthermore, the metamagic mastery ability allows a wizard to apply a metamagic feat on the fly (Core Rulebook, Universalist School). If I understand correct though, TSM is not high enough level to apply the ability to Empower or Maximise spell, right?
Hand of the apprentice is him using magic. Incorporeal creature can not physically(using their bodies) affect physical objects.
As for empower and maximize that depends on the spell it is affecting. For magic missle he is good to go.
Magic Missile is a first level spell
Empower forces it to take up a 3rd level slot.
Maximize forces it to take up a 4th level slot.
7th level wizards have access to 4th level slots, and TSM is an 8th level wizard so has no problem applying those metamagic abilities. However from the PRD: "Any time you use this ability to apply a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by more than 1, you must use an additional daily usage for each level above 1 that the feat adds to the spell. "
Both Maximize and Empower increase the spell level by more than 1 so they need additional uses of the ability that SM does not have.
wraithstrike wrote: cibet44 wrote: wraithstrike wrote:
Hand of the apprentice is him using magic. Incorporeal creature can not physically(using their bodies) affect physical objects.
However the PRD does state "Hand of the Apprentice (Su): You cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp" Good catch. I think think it was an oversight, on the part of the writer.
PS:Did TSM even have a weapon? I ran it, but I don't remember one being mentioned. Just his "corrupting touch".
I think these are oversights on the part of the developer (if I understand the Paizo process correctly). I think the new PF rules are still tripping up the developers. I wouldn't expect the authors to have all this stuff nailed down.
Plus I think the developers are tacking on material not in the authors final turnover to better utilize Paizo products in the APs. As I read through Carrion Crown I see a few instances of text not matching up with stat blocks.
I think the SM works just fine as a Ghost/human not a Ghost/old/Wizard. How can any undead be considered "old"? How can he hold any of his spell components (for Summon Monster)? SM should have just been ghost/aristocrat or some other NPC class. Making him a Ghost/old/Wizard is just wonky. To me undead that cast spells are called liches, thats why wizards go through the whole process to become a lich in the first place, so that they can retain their arcane power and live forever.
cibet44 wrote: Said stuff
I believe TSM has eschew materials (allowing him to cast his spells) and I don't really care if "Hand of the Mage" is not 'RAW'. The idea of TSM using pure telekinetic power (ala poltergeist) to hold and attack with the warden's weapons is too cool not to use.
Also: He is old because that is what he was when he died (I believe. At work so don't have the book in front of me) so the template (i.e. increased int/wis/cha decreased str/dex/con) is still fine. Lucky for him being a ghost that is no longer an issue!
Also if you use his corrupting touch too often they'll all die. Hooray! What is it like 6d6 a touch?
Darkstrom wrote: cibet44 wrote: Said stuff
I believe TSM has eschew materials (allowing him to cast his spells) and I don't really care if "Hand of the Mage" is not 'RAW'. The idea of TSM using pure telekinetic power (ala poltergeist) to hold and attack with the warden's weapons is too cool not to use.
Cool as it might be, one must still consider that said items are in the bottom of a flooded oubliette (which should be at least 15 ft deep in order to prevent escape), so, how can anyone actually throw them using telekinetic power and expect to actually damage anything?
Is it possible that the writer meant for TSM to use Mage Hand in order to throw the items instead of Hand of the Mage? It would allow TSM to propel them as long as they weigh less than 5 lbs, but how much damage would he be able to deal this way? And he'd still have to contend with the water in the oubliette...
BTW, any insight on the Dex bonus / Dodge bonuses and Weapon Specialisation discrepancies I've encountered concerning Gurtis Vortch (pg. 44)?
And, of course, thanks a lot for all your replies!
cibet44 wrote: Marios wrote:
Concerning the Splatter Man (pg. 52):
a) ....
b) ....
You are correct on both of these. SM can not wield corporeal weapons using his Hand of Apprentice ability. He can not Empower or Maximize his spells using Metamagic Mastery (although I don't see any reference in the text suggesting he do this). There is no reference on this, I was just wandering if he'd be able to Empower or Maximise one of his normal Magic Missiles on the fly using his Metamagic Mastery... thankfully, he can't! :)
Darkstrom wrote:
I believe TSM has eschew materials (allowing him to cast his spells)
He does not. However the only spell he has "memorized" (also weird that a ghost can do this) that requires a material component is Summon Monster.
Darkstrom wrote:
and I don't really care if "Hand of the Mage" is not 'RAW'. The idea of TSM using pure telekinetic power (ala poltergeist) to hold and attack with the warden's weapons is too cool not to use.
That's fine but this should be a special ability. The actual ability he has he can't use.
Darkstrom wrote:
Also: He is old because that is what he was when he died (I believe. At work so don't have the book in front of me) so the template (i.e. increased int/wis/cha decreased str/dex/con) is still fine. Lucky for him being a ghost that is no longer an issue!
He's undead now and they don't age and are not effected by age so the "old" subtype is meaningless and should be lost. Not a big deal, just weird and a waste of space. In addition if you read his actual background there is nothing in it that indicates he was "old" at the time of his incarceration and "death". In fact it seems he was a quite vibrant and effective serial killer on the run from the law. So the "old" stuff seems to really come out of left field.
Darkstrom wrote:
Also if you use his corrupting touch too often they'll all die. Hooray! What is it like 6d6 a touch?
Yes I agree. Another weird development decision with the Splatter Man. Why waste precious word count and AP space with a bunch of stuff he really can't use (like his "Hand of the Mage", "Metamagic Mastery", and wizard based spell casting) and then give him an ability he absolutely can use but if he does it is most likely a TPK. Weird all around, considering none of this is even story based. In fact some of it seems to run counter to his background story.
cibet44 wrote:
He does not. However the only spell he has "memorized" (also weird that a ghost can do this) that requires a material component is Summon Monster.
Color me disappointed. :(
cibet44 wrote:
He's undead now and they don't age and are not effected by age so the "old" subtype is meaningless and should be lost. Not a big deal, just weird and a waste of space. In addition if you read his actual background there is nothing in it that indicates he was "old" at the time of his incarceration and "death". In fact it seems he was a quite vibrant and effective serial killer on the run from the law. So the "old" stuff seems to really come out of left field.
He was a respected professor of <nameology> and generally speaking prestige comes with age in academic circles as you publish quality work.I don't think there's anything in the background to say either way. However I do agree its inclusion into the statblock is functionally useless.
cibet44 wrote:
Any time you use this ability to apply a metamagic feat that increases the spell level by more than 1, you must use an additional daily usage for each level above 1 that the feat adds to the spell.
That is for metamagic mastery*, the wizard class feature. You don't have to use that in order use a spell already prepared with empower or maximize which TSM is doing. Actually you can't use it since TSM has already prepared the spell with the metamagic feat already attached when he first prepared his spells. If the spell was not prepared that way it would not appear in his stat block that way.
Metamagic Mastery is only used to spontaneously apply metamagic to a spell. That is why it has the additional +1 because if you apply metamagic feat on the fly you are stepping on the sorcerer's toes, and that +1 keeps you from doing it so much.
prd wrote: Metamagic Mastery (Su): At 8th level, you can apply any one metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are about to cast.... Wizards being prepared casters don't normally have that option.
If you were forced to use Metamagic Mastery then an 8th level wizard would be worse than a 7th level wizard since the 8th level wizard would not would have the option to use the spell at a lesser value by preparing it.
wraithstrike wrote:
That is for metamagic mastery*, the wizard class feature. Correct. Which is exactly what the OP is asking about.
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to use that in order use a spell already prepared with empower or maximize which TSM is doing. Actually you can't use it since TSM has already prepared the spell with the metamagic feat already attached when he first prepared his spells. If the spell was not prepared that way it would not appear in his stat block that way.
Correct.
wraithstrike wrote:
Metamagic Mastery is only used to spontaneously apply metamagic to a spell. That is why it has the additional +1
Right and this is what the OP is asking about. Here is the original question:
"Am I correct in assuming that he cannot use his Metamagic Mastery ability on either Empower or Maximize spell (since he only has 1 use of the ability per day)?".
The answer to the OP is: yes, he cannot use this ability to either Empower or Maximize a spell. He does NOT have enough daily uses to do so.
He does have the feats to Empower or Maximize his spells and that is how he has them in his spell list already, but he can not use the Metamagic Mastery ability to do it. So again, a useless ability taking precious space in a stat block. Not to mention confusing a few GMs along the way.
Marios wrote:
BTW, any insight on the Dex bonus / Dodge bonuses and Weapon Specialisation discrepancies I've encountered concerning Gurtis Vortch (pg. 44)?
He does not qualify for Weapon Specialization at all.
I think you are spot on with your assumption from above. In melee he gets his Dex bonus to AC and use of his Dodge and Mobility feats against melee opponents due to Blind-Fight. Outside of melee he gets no Dex bonus to AC and his Dodge and Mobility do not function. In addition, due to Blind-Fight, he never needs to make an Acrobatics check to move full speed, this is not melee dependent.
Finally, I don't know how Deathwatch helps him with any of this. Deathwatch is a 30 foot cone that "can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell's range." It doesn't pinpoint or provide creature locations at all. So I'm not sure why it is even mentioned with respect to the blindness and deafness.
More Stat-block acrobatics. Sorry for your pain.
cibet44 wrote: wraithstrike wrote:
That is for metamagic mastery*, the wizard class feature. Correct. Which is exactly what the OP is asking about.
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to use that in order use a spell already prepared with empower or maximize which TSM is doing. Actually you can't use it since TSM has already prepared the spell with the metamagic feat already attached when he first prepared his spells. If the spell was not prepared that way it would not appear in his stat block that way.
Correct.
wraithstrike wrote:
Metamagic Mastery is only used to spontaneously apply metamagic to a spell. That is why it has the additional +1
Right and this is what the OP is asking about. Here is the original question:
"Am I correct in assuming that he cannot use his Metamagic Mastery ability on either Empower or Maximize spell (since he only has 1 use of the ability per day)?".
The answer to the OP is: yes, he cannot use this ability to either Empower or Maximize a spell. He does NOT have enough daily uses to do so.
He does have the feats to Empower or Maximize his spells and that is how he has them in his spell list already, but he can not use the Metamagic Mastery ability to do it. So again, a useless ability taking precious space in a stat block. Not to mention confusing a few GMs along the way. Thanks for the clear up.
@ space wasting ideas: Stat blocks are expected to be complete. Yeah it is basically checking the block, but it should still be done for unique monsters. Many would view it as unprofessional to skim the monster back by having a partial statblock if the monster is not a stock monster that can be looked up in a book.
cibet44 wrote:
Finally, I don't know how Deathwatch helps him with any of this. Deathwatch is a 30 foot cone that "can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell's range." It doesn't pinpoint or provide creature locations at all. So I'm not sure why it is even mentioned with respect to the blindness and deafness.
More Stat-block acrobatics. Sorry for your pain. Maybe we could/should replace Deathwatch with Lifesense? Seems to make much more sense...
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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
I would like to note, beyond debating rules, that all of this is kind of pointless. I can think of no significant way any of this has any bearing on any of these fights. TSM never got so far down his list of spells to have to use Hand of the Apprentice, in my campaign, and I'd be impressed with the survivability of the party, and their complete innefectual ability to strike back against him if he got that far..
He's able to do the things he does because he's a non-traditional undead used for story purposes. The same goes for Vortch. Very rarely have I found that adventures, and normally only the bad ones stick to RAW.
Marios wrote: cibet44 wrote:
Finally, I don't know how Deathwatch helps him with any of this. Deathwatch is a 30 foot cone that "can determine the condition of creatures near death within the spell's range." It doesn't pinpoint or provide creature locations at all. So I'm not sure why it is even mentioned with respect to the blindness and deafness.
More Stat-block acrobatics. Sorry for your pain. Maybe we could/should replace Deathwatch with Lifesense? Seems to make much more sense... I guess, but that's a pretty powerful ability and completely negates his blindness, so what would then be the point of him being blind in the first place? The whole thing is weird to me.
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ThornDJL7 wrote: I would like to note, beyond debating rules, that all of this is kind of pointless. Except, of course, that the OP asked some questions that we are trying to give him answers to. Not pointless at all to him.
What might be pointless though is reading and posting to a thread that one feels is pointless to begin with. Ha! ;)
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
cibet44 wrote: ThornDJL7 wrote: I would like to note, beyond debating rules, that all of this is kind of pointless. Except, of course, that the OP asked some questions that we are trying to give him answers to. Not pointless at all to him.
What might be pointless though is reading and posting to a thread that one feels is pointless to begin with. Ha! ;) I humored his questions initially since he said he was new to the system and mechanics. The reason is pointless because this adventure is not a "tournament" campaign, and will have many, many RAW discrepencies.
Best way to handle them, is to be flexible and run with them, and enjoy the encounter. The only time I feel it's necessary to edit an encounter or modify them is where the way they're written will butcher your player's characters. (Lamia matriarch in RotRL, anyone?)
Don't stress over the fact it's not RAW. You have way better things you can be doing with your DM prep time, trust me on that one, please.
wraithstrike wrote: cibet44 wrote: wraithstrike wrote:
That is for metamagic mastery*, the wizard class feature. Correct. Which is exactly what the OP is asking about.
wraithstrike wrote:
You don't have to use that in order use a spell already prepared with empower or maximize which TSM is doing. Actually you can't use it since TSM has already prepared the spell with the metamagic feat already attached when he first prepared his spells. If the spell was not prepared that way it would not appear in his stat block that way.
Correct.
wraithstrike wrote:
Metamagic Mastery is only used to spontaneously apply metamagic to a spell. That is why it has the additional +1
Right and this is what the OP is asking about. Here is the original question:
"Am I correct in assuming that he cannot use his Metamagic Mastery ability on either Empower or Maximize spell (since he only has 1 use of the ability per day)?".
The answer to the OP is: yes, he cannot use this ability to either Empower or Maximize a spell. He does NOT have enough daily uses to do so.
He does have the feats to Empower or Maximize his spells and that is how he has them in his spell list already, but he can not use the Metamagic Mastery ability to do it. So again, a useless ability taking precious space in a stat block. Not to mention confusing a few GMs along the way. Thanks for the clear up.
@ space wasting ideas: Stat blocks are expected to be complete. Yeah it is basically checking the block, but it should still be done for unique monsters. Many would view it as unprofessional to skim the monster back by having a partial statblock if the monster is not a stock monster that can be looked up in a book. I formatted that wrong with the quotes. Sorry about that. Ignore everything except for what comes after "@space wasting ideas:"
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