How many people have campaigns with PCs at or above level 20?
How many people have campaigns with PCs at or above level 20?
i was in a campaign that started in 2003 at 1st level, and we went all the way up to level 32, playing all day saturday and sunday from 10am til 4am the next day. took us 2 years to accomplish, with all of us rotating as the DM, using prefabs for the co-DMs and the main DM was running an overarching plot line. Only one person was able to keep his character alive for the entire campaign.
How many people have campaigns with PCs at or above level 20?i was in a campaign that started in 2003 at 1st level, and we went all the way up to level 32, playing all day saturday and sunday from 10am til 4am the next day. took us 2 years to accomplish, with all of us rotating as the DM, using prefabs for the co-DMs and the main DM was running an overarching plot line. Only one person was able to keep his character alive for the entire campaign.
D&D or Pathfinder?
It couldn't be Pathfinder. There wasn't any Pathfinder in 2003.
My question has always been: What possible plot line could hold characters from level 1 into the 20's or 30's? Paizo APs only go to 15th-ish and they already seem a bit stretched to me.
That presumes that a single plot unites the entire campaign. This is false for many home games, and even for many of Paizo's APs.
My current campaign (which started in 3.5 and moved to Pathfinder) is at 18th level. Several "plots" wove together to create the campaign. They started on the Modron March and Tales from the Infinite Staircase. Moved on to learning about the fall of Orcus with Dead Gods. Then they saw the return of Vecna in Die, Vecna, Die!. Now they are becoming scions of domains and may work their way to becoming demi-gods in the service of greater gods.
But really, once you reach a certain point, the characters need to start motivating themselves. By the time you reach level 15, no king can afford your services. So either you serve one through ideology, or you start your own empire. Or if you really must serve a higher power, you become a servant of the Gods perhaps.
As long as your character continues to have goals and aspirations, the game can continue.
I'll be watching this thread with interest as I intend to take my game as far as possible. But we are only at level 7, and only get to game for an evening once a month, sometimes more.
The characters are thieves brought up by one of the thieves guilds in Londinium, a high fantasy, high magic city of over two million humanoids. They are just now beginning to see who really holds power in their guild, in a rival guild, and in the city - and this is the main story arc of the campaign.
They may choose to topple some of those powers, their will be invasion from the Continent, there are always opportunities for 'work' within the city. I hope these things will provide enough fodder to keep them going for a long time yet.
The characters are thieves brought up by one of the thieves guilds in Londinium, a high fantasy, high magic city of over two million humanoids. They are just now beginning to see who really holds power in their guild, in a rival guild, and in the city - and this is the main story arc of the campaign.
They may choose to topple some of those powers, their will be invasion from the Continent, there are always opportunities for 'work' within the city. I hope these things will provide enough fodder to keep them going for a long time yet.
Eventually, once they are in control of the guild (either officially or unofficially) they'll need to start defending their position. Other up and coming thieves will want to be in control. They'll need to maintain enough of a network of bribes that the ruling government doesn't crack down hard on them. All sorts of possibilities.
All sorts of possibilities.
Thanks, that is a great idea. I'll paste this into my campaign documents.
My question has always been: What possible plot line could hold characters from level 1 into the 20's or 30's? Paizo APs only go to 15th-ish and they already seem a bit stretched to me.That presumes that a single plot unites the entire campaign. This is false for many home games, and even for many of Paizo's APs.
My current campaign (which started in 3.5 and moved to Pathfinder) is at 18th level. Several "plots" wove together to create the campaign. They started on the Modron March and Tales from the Infinite Staircase. Moved on to learning about the fall of Orcus with Dead Gods. Then they saw the return of Vecna in Die, Vecna, Die!. Now they are becoming scions of domains and may work their way to becoming demi-gods in the service of greater gods.
But really, once you reach a certain point, the characters need to start motivating themselves. By the time you reach level 15, no king can afford your services. So either you serve one through ideology, or you start your own empire. Or if you really must serve a higher power, you become a servant of the Gods perhaps.
As long as your character continues to have goals and aspirations, the game can continue.
Fantastically said.
The group I play in has been playing for 6 years now and I think the lowest level character in the group is 54. We have a group of six core players with two to four who rotate in and out at their leisure. Our GM is well organized, very talented, and extremely knowledgeable about the rules (D&D 3.5 combined with more and more Pathfinder as time goes on). We still play, although we are down to every other Friday so that the GM has time to prep, but as far as we can figure it we are only about half way through the main plot.
Some people question how a campaign can get to so high level and still be fun, engaging, and fresh, the short answer is you need a hell of GM.
The group I play in has been playing for 6 years now and I think the lowest level character in the group is 54. We have a group of six core players with two to four who rotate in and out at their leisure. Our GM is well organized, very talented, and extremely knowledgeable about the rules (D&D 3.5 combined with more and more Pathfinder as time goes on). We still play, although we are down to every other Friday so that the GM has time to prep, but as far as we can figure it we are only about half way through the main plot.
Some people question how a campaign can get to so high level and still be fun, engaging, and fresh, the short answer is you need a hell of GM.
I would be VERY interested in seeing a statblock or 2 from this game. Sounds interesting, and awesome!
Pathfinder, in my opinion, does not yet have enough viable options to realistically take a game beyond 20 with the mechanics they have.
That said, most games beyond level 20 in 3.5 have usually little to do with mechanics at all by that point. They are usually more roleplay and plot-intensive. This is, after all, the mark of one hell of a good DM.
Personally, I'm not usually a fan of games that get too far into "Epic Level", mostly because of what has to happen when the blows finally DO come down. Too many dice, in my opinion.
As a player my favorite levels will always be 5-15. As a DM, I currently have a game going where everyone just hit 21, but we're nearing the end of the story for these characters. For my games when the players get that high, we usually backburner them and start with new characters (assuming the story is over) but return to the older characters when in just casual-RP or talking about over pizza.
Short version... How fun that is or how that works is always conditional.
Highest level Pathfinder game I have been in was level 10.
Highest level D&D campaign I was in was 1st ed D&D at level 45.
It ended the weekend before high school graduation. We were trying to play all night to end the campaign before everybody left for college.
At around 5 am, we finally cornered the main bad guy on the Demiplane of Oil.
Since everybody had fire resistance rings, we did our usual tactic of the fighter types rushing the bad guys and my wizard fireballing them.
Did I mention Demiplane of Oil?
The DM did several times. He made it a point to ask us if we were remembered where we were. Sleep deprivation had made us forget the properties of this plane in regards to fire-based spells.
Over half an hour later of counting d6s, we realized the fire resistance rings couldn't protect from that much damage and we were all dead.
But hey, so was the bad guy!
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Agree with the whole idea of multiple adventure arcs and campaign plots being needed.
To get an idea for this style of play one only needs to read Raymond Feist. He has a series of books that start out with an apprentice wizard who gets caught up in a war. Now after many books he is a power above any kingdom. He now is involved in stopping gods / demons etc from invading this plane of reality and his opponents are usually super powerful beings controlling stuff from behind the scenes.
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I would be VERY interested in seeing a statblock or 2 from this game. Sounds interesting, and awesome!
This fellow was troublesome, mainly due to the large number of attacks combined with Power Attack (I think it was bumping it as high as +50), but also due to the Devastating Critical feat (DC73 Fort save or die). That's 25 chances per round for a save or die result.
Phaedokeltung sent several paraelemental ooze monoliths ahead to soak up damage, then sent in another kraken and then attacked. I estimated the overall encounter at something like CR32, but it was harder because the party was on a small island fighting against kraken that could just reach out of the water and grab them. If I recall, 2 PCs died and needed resurrection. Details are hazy because this was back in June.
Titanic Magical Beast (aquatic, earth)
Hit Dice: 68d10+952+68 (1,394 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: Swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 19 (–16 size, +25 natural), touch –6, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +68/+117
Attacks: Tentacles +82/+82/+77/+72/+67/+62 melee (6d8+29+2d6 acid/19–20) and arms +82x6/+77x3/+72x3/+67x3/+62x3 melee (3d6+14+2d6 acid/19–20) and bite +76 melee (8d6+14+2d6 acid)
Space/Reach: 60 ft./40 ft. (200 ft. with tentacle, 100 ft. with arm)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, constrict 6d8+29 or 3d6+14
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., DR 10/magic, ink cloud, jet, low-light vision, spell-like abilities
Saves: Fort +48, Ref +36, Will +27
Abilities: Str 68/+29, Dex 10, Con 39/+14, Int 19/+4, Wis 20/+5, Cha 24/+7
Racial Adjustments: Con +4, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10
Skills (+259): Concentration +21, Diplomacy +7, Hide +57(+77), Intimidate +16, Knowledge (geography) +17, Knowledge (nature) +16, Listen +30, Search +28, Sense Motive +17, Spot +30, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks), Swim +20, Use Magic Device +16
Feats (19 + 15e): Bleeding Critical, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Critical Focus, Devastating Critical (arm), Devastating Critical (tentacle), Great Cleave, Greater Multigrab, Improved Critical (arm), Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Improved Iron Will, Improved Natural Attack (arm), Improved Natural Attack (tentacle), Improved Rapidstrike (arms x3), Improved Rapidstrike (tentacles), Improved Toughness, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Multigrab, Overwhelming Critical (arm), Overwhelming Critical (tentacle), Power Attack, Rapidstrike (arms x3), Rapidstrike (tentacles), Weapon Focus (arm), Weapon Focus (tentacle)
Challenge Rating: 30
You may notice I never bothered completely with the skills; when I use this creature again I'll probably complete the skill info.
Oh, and one of my favorite encounters. Not because it was a ninja umbral blot (though I did find that amusing), but because of what they did to defeat it - they had it follow them through a gate into the Ethereal citadel of their enemies, the ethergaunts:
Huge Construct/Ninja 16
Hit Dice: 89d10+16d6+400 (950 hp)
Initiative: +20 (Dex, Superior Initiative)
Speed: Fly 120 ft. (perfect)
AC: 59 (–2 size, +12 Dex, +25 natural, +14 ninja), 34 touch, 47 flat-footed
BAB/Grapple: +74/+90
Attacks: +87 melee touch (disintegrating touch)
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Disintegrating touch, ghost strike, ki power 18/day, sudden strike +8d6, vortex
Special Qualities: Blindsight 200 ft., construct traits, evasion, fast healing 25, ghost mind, ghost sight, ghost step (ethereal or invisible), ki dodge, planar travel, SR 44; acid, cold, electricity, fire, and sonic resistance 30
Saves: Fort +37, Ref +49, Will +51
Abilities: Str 26/+8, Dex 34/+12, Con —, Int 32/+11, Wis 34/+12, Cha 30/+10
Feats (36/32e): Ability Focus (disintegrating touch), Adroit Flyby Attack, Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Epic Prowess (x3), Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Speed, Epic Improved Toughness, Epic Toughness (x5), Fast Healing (x5), Flyby Attack, Great Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Toughness, Run, Skill Focus (Sense Motive), Skill Focus (Survival), Stealthy, Superior Initiative, Track, Weapon Finesse (touch)
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 48
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 90–95 HD (Huge); 96–171 HD (Gargantuan)
As an aside, there's probably scads of errors in these stat blocks. Creating a perfect stat block (as anyone who reads the stuff published by Paizo knows, and from their comments afterwards) is a huge effort. Since the combat isn't the point, having it be about right in way less time is far better than having it be perfect and having no time for plot.
As an aside, there's probably scads of errors in these stat blocks. Creating a perfect stat block (as anyone who reads the stuff published by Paizo knows, and from their comments afterwards) is a huge effort. Since the combat isn't the point, having it be about right in way less time is far better than having it be perfect and having no time for plot.
I'm running a 16th level game that will probably go to level 22 or 23 and these are words to live by. Don't waste time being super detailed because that's not going to even be visible to your players. Focus on what matters engaging stories set in an engaging world.
I'm currently running the King Maker game which ends with the Characters being 17th level. Right now my players are 10th level. I'm going to continue on with the game till about 22nd level.
I think playing people into lvls 20+ is about DM creativity in the storyline. I remember some years ago running a campaign that started with the 3.0 module where you had Meepo and Calcryx the white dragon with the kobolds. The campaign became the Calcryx campaign as that little white dragon ended up being the imprisoned avatar of the dragon god Io. Players went all the way to lvl 28ish.
We're about to start Carrion Crown and I already have developed as part of the overarching plot that as they go through the modules they will encounter Knights of Ozem (more than just in the one module where they appear). As they finish the last CC module and are about lvl 15, they'll start an epic quest that should take them from lvl 15 to about 25 where they will work towards redeeming the Harlot Queen Arazni.
Currently level 22. As has been said before, by this point it's far more about plot than it is about combat, though in more sandbox-oriented games like my DM runs, it ends up being a lot more about RP. And as someone else said, by this point, your characters really should be self-motivated. In my character's case, she's flighty and wanderlust-prone, and thus the self-motivation has been built into her personality since level 1.
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My question has always been: What possible plot line could hold characters from level 1 into the 20's or 30's? Paizo APs only go to 15th-ish and they already seem a bit stretched to me.
Don't start at 1st level on the main quest. Your adventurer's at 1st are newbies and not out to save the world. Slowly over the first 10 levels start hinting at their destiny and drop interesting items and NPCs in occasionally to bring back in later. Once they hit mid level range start making the hints more pressing. They should start to suspect something of a larger struggle. As they reach the 10+ range the players find themselves confronted with the truth that all they had done before was as useful as sweeping the front steps. They are presented with the fact they exist in a much larger world and begin to transcend the mundane tasks which would have consumed them before.
I have a campaign which began at 2nd level (1st level is terrible imo). The party was in a small logging town and asked to look into the disappearance of the local logging barons child(yes it was a module). I let the players get through the module without even hinting at anything beyond the current plot. After they recovered the children (mostly unharmed) the players are presented with a more dire threat to the town and offered monetary compensation for their help in eliminating the threat. While the players were hunting the woods to find the source of the threat they came across a mysterious cabin only to recognize it as a cabin they had visited in the first module...except the entire clearing was about 3 miles away from where it ought to be. Inside the cabin the adventurers were warmly greeted as the not-quite-heroes-yet. They managed to deduce some small amount of information concerning who they were speaking to at the time, and were given a cryptic hint at things to come. The players were then found a small gem in the loot pile of the villains for that segment which was quite ancient and powerful (minor artifact). When they went back to town they were double crossed and ended up in a wizards tower battling a lich. The lich gave them a few hints that the gem was more meaningful than they had realized. After the encounter they have been stuck inside an extra-dimensional prison. While inside the prison the assassin was offered a deal with the devil and signed the contract. During the past several levels he has slowly been interpreting the contents of the contract (I allow him to take 20 on the check so he is gaining new clauses every time his linguistics bonus increases). The contract has some hints as to the greater scope and once they realize who the assassin has made a deal with the true planar scope of the campaign will be underway. Once they escape the prison they will be at 11th level and will be approached by an NPC to help with a world scope problem. This NPC will remain a strong thread for the remainder of the campaign and the players will begin finding the cryptic hint starting to come together.
Over 10 levels I have weaved in 3-4 hints at things to come. For the most part the characters are consumed by their immediate conflict, but when the time comes to spring the epic level content it should feel slightly familiar to them. I don't think a single plot line could hold true for 20 levels of play, but allowing the characters some smaller plot lines to build their character before the grand plot hits can work. These characters begin as newbies, but should have some adventures under their belt before being asked to take on Arch Devils and the like.
So, I lost no less than two posts attempting to post here (one totally my fault as I forgot to copy it before the board-failure on my end, one due to power outage of my house), so, you know, I'll keep this short:
NUMBER THE FIRST
DumberOx and gbonehead, get better names. 'Cause yours don't fit. At all.
NUMBER THE SECOND
Destarius, presume a large amount of witty banter in which I often half-agree with you, and half-disagree, constantly making semi-humorous asides about our identical avatars (and asserting that you, in fact, are the "evil twin", despite our identical alignments), but ultimately sussing out as: I want post-20-level rules for PF, I like post-20 play, and I wholly agree with your last sentence.
NUMBER THE THIRD
Pan - basically, I have the same problem with half my players, although we've actually managed to get to a very high level (~ 40th) in one 3.X Campaign I ran. It was an epic blast.
And that's the epically short version.
ADDENDUM: Lincoln Hills, you have a good point, however it strongly depends on your table. Mine is rarely about getting to the next "power-up", but that just kind of happens (and is important) as the story progresses (occasional notable exceptions aside, but they aren't satisfied with a hard level cap anyway).
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I currently am about to crest to twentith level in Paladin, and then with the rules as is delve into the bard class at frist level slow progression, are GM is thinking we'd end about 60 levels atleast. With us being three Whole classes (at least in my case I plan on doing Paladin20/bard 20/ and maybe a Summoner or oracle 20) and so far only one of us has not died. Which is our gnome ranger!! Its been fun, though for the adventure we were doing we had to start at 10th level, and work our waay up
So, I lost no less than two posts attempting to post here (one totally my fault as I forgot to copy it before the board-failure on my end, one due to power outage of my house)
Not sure if you're using Firefox, but if you are, look into a little addition called Lazarus ... it'll save your butt six ways from Sunday.
And thanks :)
The longest game I was ever in was over a year and we started at level 0 and went up to 17. At that time we (the players) felt that the game wasn't challenging enough anymore so they 'retired' and the game time skipped 25ish years and we playe the kids of our old characters. Same plotline. We just had to finish dealing with the evil that our parents dealt with. Course that was 3.5
I am currently planning a new campain in Pathfinder that will start at 10th and go to 20th. I don't know how all your games go but we tend to TPK long before 20. . most times before 10! So this time I am starting out at 10th.