So in UC, the monk has an archetype called Master of many styles which lets him benefit from multiple style feats at the same time at the cost of the flurry of blows skill. No lets say he is of sufficiently high level to get all three feats for crane, panther, and snake style. Can you walk by an enemy, provoking an attack of opportunity, hit him before his attack resolves with panther style, deflect his attack with crane, attack him because you deflected his attack, attack him because his attack "missed" with snake, and attack again with an immediate action with snake again when your attack connects? Thereby attacking an enemy 4 times on a move action?
Now I know there is some hijinks in here so here are some further questions:
1. To use crane you have to be fighting defensively or in total defense, can you call this before or as part of your initial panther strike to satisfy the requirements?
2. Crane riposte is an AoO for parrying an attack. Snake Fang is an AoO triggered by the enemy missing. Does this count as two separate triggers, thereby letting you make two AoOs on the same target?
3.Panther Claw lets you make retaliatory strikes on a creature attempting to attack you with an AoO up to your wisdom modifier. It does not classify these as AoOs but just attacks, so can you use this with say a 20 WIS to bump that 4 attacks to 8?
4 Panther Parry says that if your retaliatory strike hits you reduce their AoO attack by -2 to hit and damage, does that stack with itself when you hit multiple times?
This seem like it has the potential to make the monk less crappy.
This is exactly what I want to do. (with a Drunken Monk)
Main issues are that it's VERY feat intensive and that it takes a lot of levels to get decent.Not to mention you'll want really good stats, especially dex and wisdom.
One thing that helps is that Master Of Many Styles lets you skip the 2nd style feat in the chain and get the 3rd (ignore pre-reqs except for the first style feat). This is perfect for Snake Style, as the 2nd feat really doesn't help us out much with this combo.
But still... you are looking at Crane x3, Panther x3, Snake x2, Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes.
Also, you will probably want dodge and mobility to get a really good AC versus all those attacks of opportunity.
Even as a human, you are looking at 11 feats at level 10. Not bad (better than a human fighter!), but still not enough to get everything I want.
Also, I imagine this combo isn't ideal against solo opponents, or against critters that either can't or won't AoO you.
Or your DM might be a metagaming %#$& and stop taking those AoOs.
Still, it's looks VERY fun (especially for Drunken Style) and would be amazing versus a large group of opponents.
It also fits well with the Flowing Monk archetype, if you DM is cool with the fact that both MoMS and Flowing Monk adjust your monk bonus feats.
By how i'm reading it you would get either the crane AoO or the Snake, since the crane riposte circumvents the attack roll so they don't qualify as missing since they never got to make an attack
Even if you hit them for initiating an attack they still get to continue with the attack so they still get attacked once for trying to hit you, and attacked again if they miss.
AoO's dont stop the opponent's actions, they only interrupt them.
edit:They don't normally stop the action except for certain situations.
I. When you make an attack, you can either hit or miss. There is no middle ground.
II. When someone makes an AoO, they make an attack.
IIIa. If they would ordinarily have missed with that attack, then they have missed - no modification here.
IIIb. If they would ordinarily have hit with that attack, they instead do not hit with it. This is evident with the "one melee attack that would normally hit you" phrasing. It would normally hit you, but because of crane style it does not. Not hitting is equivalent to missing, whether it's due to a failed attack roll, a failed roll vs. concealment, mirror image, crane style, or any other ability which can cause an attack to fail to hit its intended target.
Therefore, whether their attack roll ends up beating your AC or not on that AoO, they miss.
1. To use crane you have to be fighting defensively or in total defense, can you call this before or as part of your initial panther strike to satisfy the requirements?
If you're not fighting defensively, you're not able to use Crane. So you must have already begun fighting defensively as a standard (or full round) action.
2. Crane riposte is an AoO for parrying an attack. Snake Fang is an AoO triggered by the enemy missing. Does this count as two separate triggers, thereby letting you make two AoOs on the same target?
I think Crane Wing counts as a miss. If you rule that the attack hits, but by deflecting it you take no damage, then what happens with, say, a touch of fatigue? You 'deflect' the touch attack, but since it hits, you're still fatigued (and take no damage). I think it's more reasonable to assume that even though you're deflecting the attack (which implies you're parrying it, moving their arm/sword/etc aside with your hand) it still counts as a miss, a touch spell isn't discharged, and Snake Fang is applicable.
3.Panther Claw lets you make retaliatory strikes on a creature attempting to attack you with an AoO up to your wisdom modifier. It does not classify these as AoOs but just attacks, so can you use this with say a 20 WIS to bump that 4 attacks to 8?
No, you get one retaliatory strike for each AoO you take from moving. You can't hit one guy 5 times, but you could hit 5 guys once each if you're running a gauntlet.
4 Panther Parry says that if your retaliatory strike hits you reduce their AoO attack by -2 to hit and damage, does that stack with itself when you hit multiple times?
No, it applies to the AoO that caused it. You only get one strike per AoO, so it can only have one penalty. If you moved twice, provoked twice, and took 2 AoOs, you could parry each of those once.
Can you walk by an enemy, provoking an attack of opportunity, hit him before his attack resolves with panther style, deflect his attack with crane, attack him because you deflected his attack, attack him because his attack "missed" with snake, and attack again with an immediate action with snake again when your attack connects? Thereby attacking an enemy 4 times on a move action?
Hrm...
Standard action: Fight defensively. Punch the guy.
Move action, provokes.
Before the AoO, you Panther Parry. You hit. His AoO will take -2 penalties.
AoO happens, if it would have hit you, then you Crane Wing to deflect the attack, and make an AoO with Crane Riposte.
When the attack misses (either due to missing your AC, or due to deflection from Crane Wing) you make an AoO with Snake Fang. You hit, and spend an immediate action to hit again.
I guess.
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Crane Wing does not cause an attack to miss, it just negates the damage
Once per round while using Crane Style, when
you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.
3.Panther Claw lets you make retaliatory strikes on a creature attempting to attack you with an AoO up to your wisdom modifier. It does not classify these as AoOs but just attacks, so can you use this with say a 20 WIS to bump that 4 attacks to 8?No, you get one retaliatory strike for each AoO you take from moving. You can't hit one guy 5 times, but you could hit 5 guys once each if you're running a gauntlet.
Hmm, I wonder if in the situation of an enemy with combat reflexes and a low IQ, you could keep provoking up to his/her/it's dex mod and take as many retaliatory strikes?
prototype00
There's nothing saying that you cannot against say a foe who has combat reflexes and 18 Dex who makes 4 AoOs against you, make a panther attack for each of those AoOs since they are each resolved individually
Panther Style: "when an opponent makes an attack of opportunity against you for moving through a threatened square, you can..."
You only provoke from moving once per opponent.
See Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent."
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Crane Wing does not cause an attack to miss, it just negates the damage
If that is true, then do touch spells discharge?
Sorcerer casts Touch of Fatigue. He touches the Monk, who uses Crane Wing to deflect the attack. The attack deals no damage. Since it wasn't a miss, the Sorcerer touched the monk, so the spell discharges?
Magus casts Shocking Grasp and delivers it via Spellstrike. Monk uses Crane Wing to deflect the attack. The Magus' sword deals no damage, but what about the spell? It's not a miss, so Shocking Grasp discharges, but also deals no damage? Or does the Magus still hold the charge even though he hit the monk?
Deflection bonus applies to touch AC, which would prevent touch attacks from landing and touch spells from discharging. What about Flaming arrows that are deflected with the Deflect Arrows feat? If deflecting a blow is still considered a hit, then Flaming would still apply. (Flaming: "deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit")
It makes more sense for it to be a miss, and the 'deals no damage to you' text just to clarify for people who think deflecting a sword should still hurt you.
So, the enemy just has to not take the AoO to avoid 4 attacks from your monk ?
Nifty
As I said before...
Or your DM might be a metagaming %#$& and stop taking those AoOs.
Sure, an intelligent opponent might get wise after getting smacked around for a round or two, but otherwise you have a GM who is being a %^#@.
While he's busy removing your schtick that you built your character around, why not cut off the fighters hands and not let the wizard cast spells.
Sorry if I'm a bit touchy. :)
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I could see one opponent falling for that per combat. Maybe two, if something really distracting was going on. *barring extremely low int opponents*
Against an enemy who is aware of your combat ability, i.e. a bbeg who did homework, or someone who'd fought you before, you'd probably not get the opportunity to use it at all.
And it's not the DM being a metagaming ***** any more than a player who designs one capability and expects the dm to allow him to use it in every situation. It's no different than when the player hears "your fire damage doesn't seem to hurt it" and switches to another element. And then all the other players stop using fire damage too.
If it's something an average person could figure out (like most folks on the boards would), then its something the average monster could figure out.
Or put another way, if a player makes a character who is ONLY good at diplomacy, and has put every aspect of his character into diplomacy even to the point of neglecting other aspects, should the dm be forced to let him use it everywhere and all the time? Of course not! There are scenarios where it will work nicely, but for one trick ponies, most scenarios will not be that one specific scenario where they're designed to excel.
I could see one opponent falling for that per combat. Maybe two, if something really distracting was going on. *barring extremely low int opponents*
Against an enemy who is aware of your combat ability, i.e. a bbeg who did homework, or someone who'd fought you before, you'd probably not get the opportunity to use it at all.
And it's not the DM being a metagaming ***** any more than a player who designs one capability and expects the dm to allow him to use it in every situation. It's no different than when the player hears "your fire damage doesn't seem to hurt it" and switches to another element. And then all the other players stop using fire damage too.
If it's something an average person could figure out (like most folks on the boards would), then its something the average monster could figure out.
Or put another way, if a player makes a character who is ONLY good at diplomacy, and has put every aspect of his character into diplomacy even to the point of neglecting other aspects, should the dm be forced to let him use it everywhere and all the time? Of course not! There are scenarios where it will work nicely, but for one trick ponies, most scenarios will not be that one specific scenario where they're designed to excel.
Not what I was saying at all, but congrats for winning the internet. *slow clap*
So Ravennus does make a good point about feat intensive which is a valid issue. Although one level of the unarmed fighter archetype may help wiht the feat issue somewhat. My question is what other ways can this build capitalize on its AoO and other features? No room to add trip feats ki throw stomps to the build. Does this concept benefit from the handful of reach monk weapons available?
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So Ravennus does make a good point about feat intensive which is a valid issue. Although one level of the unarmed fighter archetype may help wiht the feat issue somewhat. My question is what other ways can this build capitalize on its AoO and other features? No room to add trip feats ki throw stomps to the build. Does this concept benefit from the handful of reach monk weapons available?
honestly with this character concept you would want to multiclass. level 20 is a pipe dream, so saying at 20th i get this... isn't a valid argument IMO. a 15 monk 5 fighter with a monk belt would be nasty and you would still get your I-trip, G-trip, and stomp attacks knocking up your total attacks to 6 while moving, and i think vital strike would apply in this situation. that would be a truly nasty build. taking into account that you would get a "near" full flurry with all attacks based on your best bab, giving a very high to hit%
oh man and "martial artist" is compatible with "manyforms" so you can lose your ki pool to knock up your ac 10 to make your mobile ac even more sexy.
Yeah I made this build as soon as I saw the many styles! It seems fun so far. I was planning on going 4th fighter with a 16th monk as I only need 3 styles anyway.
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Not what I was saying at all, but congrats for winning the internet. *slow clap*
Let's check.
Sure, an intelligent opponent might get wise after getting smacked around for a round or two, but otherwise you have a GM who is being a %^#@.
While he's busy removing your schtick that you built your character around, why not cut off the fighters hands and not let the wizard cast spells.
No, that's what you were saying. I would suggest that you try not being quite so defensive. Not everyone that disagrees with something you say is attacking you. Also, poorly disguised insults don't tend to do well around here.
It seems to me that the very meat and bones of this build requires three crane feats, one panther feat, and three snake feats. The other two panther feats don't matter too much, since you're deflecting that aoo anyhow, and you're not spending your swift action on anything else (yet). The other panther feats are nice, but not strictly required to make this work.
Three feats at first level, if he nabs Crane style and combat reflexes with human/first level bonus, he can grab crane wing with his bonus style feat. At second level, he can grab Crane Riposte. Third level, he can take Snake Style, fifth level, he can grab Panther Style, sixth level, he can grab snake sidewind. Seventh is open, and ninth is Snake Fang. Now he's got the set. Which is fine, since he can't use three styles together until 8th level.
He could pick up the martial artist archetype as well for weapon spec. greater weapon focus, ect., the bonuses might help offset the loss of flurry of blows, which makes the monk a 3/4 bab combatant.
Alternatively, the Sohei might offer some interesting possibilities, bonuses with weapons for tripping, in order to provoke attacks of opportunity through means other than movement, and also helps to offset the 3/4 bab issue. Definitely, this monk should be carrying some extra skills for when an enemy stops taking the bait. He won't get the ki point attack, which hurts, but he won't have to worry about setting up full round attacks to use it either, which is nice.
Of course, the qinggong monk is a great archetype that adds a lot of versatility, and some unique abilities that are otherwise impossible for a monk to get. On that note, I have to upvote the scorching ray ability, coupled with the bestiary feat quicken sla, to give you three quickened scorching rays a day to combine with an attack chain. and you can use it to provoke!
The Ki Mystic could give you some bonuses to knowledge checks, which will be hurting because of the skill requirements of various style feats. Overall low syngergy though.
Monk of the Four Winds looks pretty nice though, elemental fist bonus feats, and three standard actions which could account for a lot of move actions and a lot of provokes.
The weapon adept archetype could be useful as well. Perfect strike could help a bit with that low bab.
Honestly, I think the most useful thing for this build would be some sort of vision limiter. Fog cloud, darkness, whatever it may be. The fewer people who can see him fight, the fewer people who will reasonably refuse to take that aoo when it's offered.
If this character continues down the style tree, tiger seems like the next best one. With the third level, you have power attack constantly active and applied to ac instead of ab. Since you're deflecting attacks before they touch you, you're fine.
Since you lose flurry, I think the temptation is high to move into another class entirely. Depending on the archetypes you choose, you could run monk until 8th level *required to use three stances at the same time*, and then move into a primary bab class. You could end up with a +18 bab - definitely respectable.
Fighter levels would help remove some of that feat tightness, while Paladin levels... oww, head explode now.
Or you could dip... say two levels in sorcerer and 10 in dragon disciple. Really, there are a lot of interesting things you can do from this point.
Ok, so you are saying that it would function like an AoO, but is just not classified as such so you would only be able to use one per AoO they get on you.No, you get one retaliatory strike for each AoO you take from moving. You can't hit one guy 5 times, but you could hit 5 guys once each if you're running a gauntlet.
See this post - Panther only works when you provoke from moving, and you only provoke from moving once per round (per creature).
If you provoke from spellcasting, or un-improved tripping someone, or whatever, then Panther Style cannot activate, and thus Panther Otherstuff cannot activate.
you were saying that using the panther style you can only retaliate once per AoO they get on you when you provoke for moving through a threatened square, which you can only get one of per creature per round, and couldn't for instance use your maximum amount of retaliations in response to a single AoO that was provoked in that same instance?
I think so.
Panther Style: "make a retaliatory unarmed strike attack against that opponent"
Panther Claw: "While using Panther Style, you can spend a free action, instead of spending a swift action, to make a retaliatory unarmed strike. You can make a number of retaliatory unarmed strikes on your turn equal to your Wisdom modifier."
I assume that means if you provoke from 5 orcs while moving, you can retaliate on up to (WisMod) of them. I don't think the intent was to take (WisMod) number of attacks on one orc that tried to hit you once.
YMMV, ask your DM to be sure.
He could pick up the martial artist archetype as well for weapon spec. greater weapon focus, ect., the bonuses might help offset the loss of flurry of blows, which makes the monk a 3/4 bab combatant.
I had this idea as well, but unfortunately both MoMS and MA replace Perfect Self. They can't be combined. Which really irks me since such people exist in real life.
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Let's see. So at 9th level you're fighting defensively as a standard action (and a mere -1 penalty to hit due to Crane Riposte) - so that's a single attack at a base +5 (+6 BAB, -1 fighting defensively with Crane Riposte). Then you take a move action to move and provoke. Your opponent takes an AoO, which Crane Wing deflects, then you get an AoO for Crane Riposte, a free action attack for Panther Claw, an AoO for Snake Fang, and an immediate action attack for Snake Fang if the Snake Fang AoO hits. So that's 4 or 5 attacks, each at +5 base to hit. If the opponent then misses you on his turn, you get another AoO via Snake Fang, for a total of 5 or 6 attacks. You've used (up to) your standard, move, and swift (immediate) actions, and 3 AoO.
The moving to provoke seems a bit of a weakness here... along with the lack of Flurry of Blows, of course.
If you take a vanilla Monk and fight defensively using Crane Riposte as a full-attack action you get four attacks at +6/+6/+1/+1 then, if he attacks you on his turn you deflect that attack with Crane Wing and take an AoO against him at +5 thanks to Crane Riposte. So that's 5 attacks. You've used your standard and move actions, and a single AoO. You've also saved yourself 4 Feats, so you could have thrown Improved Trip and Vicious Stomp into the mix somewhere to trip him with your first attack, take your Vicious Stomp AoO, then pummel him on the ground, then take another AoO as he stands, then take a third AoO when he tried to hit you and your Crane Wing causes him to miss. That's 7 attacks (one of which is a trip), at the cost of your standard and move actions, and three AoO. You've gotten an extra attack, saved your swift action, and saved 2 Feats. You've also made sure that the one attack the guy takes after he's gotten off the floor automatically misses you, so you're much, much, safer than the Master of Many Styles.
So... it's an interesting combination, but in a straight fight probably not as good as a vanilla Monk rocking the Crane Style Feats by themselves.