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Hypothetical scenario: Party needs to sneak past an NPC guard and his hound. Wizard casts Invisibility on Rogue, and Rogue rolls Stealth with a +20 bonus on the check due to the spell.
Behind the screen:
In a home campaign, I'd ignore the +20 (or deduct 20 from the result, whatever definition suits) in the case of the hound's perception check, due to it having scent. AND let it keep the +8 bonus, for that matter. Of course I'd have the guard himself roll vs the full, +20 check total.
Should a player have an issue with this method, I'd happily derail any and all rules arguments and invoke rule #1, the GM makes the rules and we'd get back to the game.
I'm soon to GM my first PFS OP scenario and I'm aware that rule #1 doesn't necessarily apply.
My intent of the post is to find out if such a deviation from the written canon ruleset is permissible. I mean, to my own sensibilities, it makes sense. Invisibility is vs sight only, and (except for sighthounds) smell is a canine's primary sense.
So, does a GM have any sort of leeway to make 'well the rules say one thing, but in this instance I'ma say they work this way instead..' rulings at a PFS OP table?
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I think you are confused how Scent works..
There is no perception check involved with scent.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.
The creature with scent knows there is something there as soon as they are within range.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action.
With a Move action they know the direction.
If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
Once within 5 feet (1 square) they know exactly what they smell is and can attack, though the penalties of being invisible still apply, full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance).
I think you are confused how Scent works..
There is no perception check involved with scent.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.The creature with scent knows there is something there as soon as they are within range.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action.With a Move action they know the direction.
If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.Once within 5 feet (1 square) they know exactly what they smell is and can attack, though the penalties of being invisible still apply, full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance).
You forgot the most important point in the whole rules outline:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
The hound has Scent. With Scent, the hound observes anyone within 30' automatically. A creature under observation cannot use stealth. It is not hidden to the hound.
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The other thing you will run into is that players will want to use the scent abilities of their character, familiars, and animal companion against the bad guys. You need to run it the same for both sides. Typically players expect to be told if anything approaches within 30' when they have the scent ability.
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I disagree with your interpretations of Scent.
It is not automatic.
the operative word in the quote of the rules is "can".
The same way I "can" see something 1,000 feet away in a low light situation.
They still need to make a perception check.
In this case, the OP is correct, the +20 to stealth would not apply, and the +8 racial bonus to perception would, because Scent can easily "observe" someone within 30' (or modified based on wind condition.)
Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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I disagree with your interpretations of Scent.
It is not automatic.
the operative word in the quote of the rules is "can".
The same way I "can" see something 1,000 feet away in a low light situation.
They still need to make a perception check.
In this case, the OP is correct, the +20 to stealth would not apply, and the +8 racial bonus to perception would, because Scent can easily "observe" someone within 30' (or modified based on wind condition.)
My initial reaction was that the OP had hit the nail on the head. I was sure there was a DC connected with using scent. Then after checking the rules I see that the DC relates to using Scent with Survival Skill to track a crearure by smell.
Scent itself allows a creature to be aware of a creature's presence within certain ranges depending on how strong the smell is but not be aware of location until within 5 feet.
The question that springs to mind is there any way to magically mask scent. 20 years ago I remember slipping past the king's guards at a Euro GenCon using a cantrip to totally clean my body and gear so to remove scent for a minute or two. Oddly it never really came up again. The current verion of that would be Prestigigitation perhaps but that would not work.
Any ideas on how to defeat those guard dogs mighty snouts either alchemically or magically?
W
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I disagree with your interpretations of Scent.
It is not automatic.
the operative word in the quote of the rules is "can".
The same way I "can" see something 1,000 feet away in a low light situation.
They still need to make a perception check.
In this case, the OP is correct, the +20 to stealth would not apply, and the +8 racial bonus to perception would, because Scent can easily "observe" someone within 30' (or modified based on wind condition.)
The perception DC to "Notice a visible creature" is 0. The modifier for perception due to distance is +1 per 10 feet. So a creature 1000 feet away has a perception DC of 100. Low light adds +2 to this DC.
The scent ability makes creatures within 30' "visible" to the perceiving creature. Even if you apply the same modifier for distance, the perception DC to "see" a creature with scent at 30 feet is only 3.
I disagree with your interpretations of Scent.
It is not automatic.
the operative word in the quote of the rules is "can".
The same way I "can" see something 1,000 feet away in a low light situation.
They still need to make a perception check.
In this case, the OP is correct, the +20 to stealth would not apply, and the +8 racial bonus to perception would, because Scent can easily "observe" someone within 30' (or modified based on wind condition.)
My initial reaction was that the OP had hit the nail on the head. I was sure there was a DC connected with using scent. Then after checking the rules I see that the DC relates to using Scent with Survival Skill to track a crearure by smell.
Scent itself allows a creature to be aware of a creature's presence within certain ranges depending on how strong the smell is but not be aware of location until within 5 feet.
The question that springs to mind is there any way to magically mask scent. 20 years ago I remember slipping past the king's guards at a Euro GenCon using a cantrip to totally clean my body and gear so to remove scent for a minute or two. Oddly it never really came up again. The current verion of that would be Prestigigitation perhaps but that would not work.
Any ideas on how to defeat those guard dogs mighty snouts either alchemically or magically?
W
Level 1 druid spell - Negate Aroma
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I disagree with your interpretations of Scent.
It is not automatic.
the operative word in the quote of the rules is "can".
The same way I "can" see something 1,000 feet away in a low light situation.
They still need to make a perception check.
In this case, the OP is correct, the +20 to stealth would not apply, and the +8 racial bonus to perception would, because Scent can easily "observe" someone within 30' (or modified based on wind condition.)
The perception DC to "Notice a visible creature" is 0. The modifier for perception due to distance is +1 per 10 feet. So a creature 1000 feet away has a perception DC of 100. Low light adds +2 to this DC.
The scent ability makes creatures within 30' "visible" to the perceiving creature. Even if you apply the same modifier for distance, the perception DC to "see" a creature with scent at 30 feet is only 3.
Just because the Perception DC is low, and is virtually assured, does not mean there aren’t other mitigating circumstances, or the creature trying to perceive is somehow crappy at it. It may be virtually automatic in most cases, but it is not automatic.
Another poster had it correct, that animal companions, familiars, and pets with scent should be able to do the same.
Also hide from undead specifically says the undead cannot use any perception including scent, blindsight, or tremorsense.
If scent were automatic there would be no need for scent based perception checks. In the case mentioned above the scent based perception check would take no DC riders for invisibility.
Then if sight were automatic (someone walking in plain sight within 30 being automatically seen), there would be no sight based perception checks.
But there are.
Quote a rule. Or your argument is just babble.
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I do love reading the thoughts back and forth on the forum, and indeed learning a thing or two about the rules in the process.. so many thanks to those who put in their two bits and helped teach me stuff I didn't know that I didn't know about scent.
The forum is the right place to have this sort of discussion. However were this to be happening instead at an OP table, I'd be less excited. If this or any other hypothetical rules situation were to arise, does a GM get to have the ultimate answer of "Frack it, we're doing it my way so deal with it."
Or must an OP GM assuage any and all rules issues whenever they come up?
(not to derail the actual rules argument.. as I said I find it most informative in this context!)
I do love reading the thoughts back and forth on the forum, and indeed learning a thing or two about the rules in the process.. so many thanks to those who put in their two bits and helped teach me stuff I didn't know that I didn't know about scent.
The forum is the right place to have this sort of discussion. However were this to be happening instead at an OP table, I'd be less excited. If this or any other hypothetical rules situation were to arise, does a GM get to have the ultimate answer of "Frack it, we're doing it my way so deal with it."
Or must an OP GM assuage any and all rules issues whenever they come up?
(not to derail the actual rules argument.. as I said I find it most informative in this context!)
I believe that a GM _can_ say frak it. But that a good GM will be cognizant of the rules, and will use the rules in making his rulings.
If I have an animal companion with Scent (or, if I have a Half-Orc PC with the Scent feat), I have every expectation of knowing when creatures come within 30' of me.
If I have a PC on guard duty, or in a dungeon crawl, or whereever, and I have informed the DM that my PC has Scent. I would be highly surprised, and not a little Pissed Off if the DM informed me that so-and-so creature had used stealth or invisibility and was able to get to me and mine without me having caught his scent.
And yes, I would expect that any enemies with scent can do the same to me.
What the discussion on the board is, is an opportunity to educate oneself about how rules that aren't often used might actually work.
Not a lot of people think about scent. So not a lot of people are familiar with the rules. A question gets asked. People look up the rules and talk about the rules. Sometimes people chime in with non-rule based "well not at my table" arguments, and while those are good to talk about, they lie outside of the rules, and into house-rules.
Generally in PFS, house rules are frowned upon, as players have a right to expect a uniform rule set in moving from one table to another with their character.
Then if sight were automatic (someone walking in plain sight within 30 being automatically seen), there would be no sight based perception checks.But there are.
Right for when people are using stealth.
Think of scent as vision within a 30' radius of dim light (certain conditions modify that). You can still hide from sight within that 30 feet, but have to use the stealth skill to do so. Otherwise line of sight would be sufficient. Now scent has another special in that at 5' it's automatically seen, much like having that 5' be bright light.
So to the original situation:
The dog rolls a perception check. This represents all of its senses.The rogue's stealth check is such that with the invisibility the dog's vision is fooled. However the rogue's stealth check is not such to fool the dog's scent.
Thus the dog smells something nearby but doesn't see it.
If the dog takes a move action it gets the direction of this unseen scent.
If the dog moves adjacent to the rogue then it would know the square of the rogue, even though it still would not see him.
Make sense?
-James
I completely agree. As I saw the argument framed, people were talking about whether Invisibility gives a -40 to the dog's ability to know something as coming. No, it doesn't because the rogue cannot use stealth to evade the dog's scent ability. His aroma is "in plain sight", which precludes the use of stealth against that ability.
@OP: your post is perfectly correct as far as I can tell.
I think you are confused how Scent works..
There is no perception check involved with scent.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet.
Dragnmoon and Fozzy Hammer are incorrect here; scent does not automatically succeed it just has a range where it applies. (As confirmed by James Jacobs.) Similar to how darkvision on a dwarf has a 60ft range. Doesn't mean he automatically sees things within 60ft.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.
This is correct, but scent - even if successful - does not automatically pinpoint somebody either. Knowing "it smells like another human is here", is not the same as "I smell that human over there". The rogue is still able to attempt stealth.
It is also correct that the +20 to stealth from invisibility does not apply, and that the hound gets +8 to perception from scent. However, even then he can only alert to the presence of the rogue; to pinpoint the rogue he needs to beat the DC by 20.
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how-on-golarion does Stealth , a skill which generally allows the master of it to hide visually and auditorilly, allow you to suddenly mask your scent from creatures??
scent (ex) from the universal monster rules :
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
read the ability through, there's no check necessary unless its tracking a creature by scent. it doesn't say that it needs to roll perception. its automatic. its a move action to determine the direction. if you start looking at in terms of actions, order and rounds, the rogue can move by the dog, while the dog is moving in the direction the rogue used to be. as long as the rogue is not initiating combat and has enough movement, he can probably get out of the range of the dog and move past it, before the dog can pinpoint his location. since the dog is not intelligent, it would probably only start barking if it heard something. if it scented something it might look into it, but then if the guard decides its something worth looking into, the rogue is gone, and the dog is left tracking by scent.
perception checks for scent are for creatures without the Scent (Ex) ability to notice the smell of things nearby. those with the Scent ability automatically notice things. if the smell is strong, they notice them from even further away. If conditions are poor (downwind, rain, negate aroma ), they might not ever automatically notice them because the zone they're aware of with Scent is reduced.
Scent is like Blindsense, with more hiccups. You need to spend a move action to determine direction instead of automatically knowing where the subject is.
someone with stealth might be able move by a dog without making a sound, but it would still notice your scent if you came within 30 ft. of it. which is why thieves don't like animals.
Stealth isn't stopped by you knowing someone is there. Stealth is stopped by somebody perceiving you. There are plenty of rules concerning various forms of perception, like Darkvision 60ft does not automatically see things either. Paizo (James Jacobs) has already confirmed that Scent does not auto-succeed in finding people (other than the automatic pinpoint when you're adjacent).
Unless Scent said that the creature in question automatically succeeds and that no perception check is necessary, then it is still necessary.
"Can" detect means it is possible to detect. Not guaranteed.
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that's james' opinion
link
which at best is guidance for how to run it in a home game. its not an official clarification.
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how-on-golarion does Stealth , a skill which generally allows the master of it to hide visually and auditorilly, allow you to suddenly mask your scent from creatures??
scent (ex) from the universal monster rules :
The creature can detect opponents within 30 feet by sense of smell. If the opponent is upwind, the range increases to 60 feet; if downwind, it drops to 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at triple normal range.
When a creature detects a scent, the exact location of the source is not revealed—only its presence somewhere within range. The creature can take a move action to note the direction of the scent. When the creature is within 5 feet of the source, it pinpoints the source's location.
read the ability through, there's no check necessary unless its tracking a creature by scent. it doesn't say that it needs to roll perception. its automatic. its a move action to determine the direction. if you start looking at in terms of actions, order and rounds, the rogue can move by the dog, while the dog is moving in the direction the rogue used to be. as long as the rogue is not initiating combat and has enough movement, he can probably get out of the range of the dog and move past it, before the dog can pinpoint his location. since the dog is not intelligent, it would probably only start barking if it heard something. if it scented something it might look into it, but then if the guard decides its something worth looking into, the rogue is gone, and the dog is left tracking by scent.
perception checks for scent are for creatures without the Scent (Ex) ability to notice the smell of things nearby. those with the Scent ability automatically notice things. if the smell is strong, they notice them from even further away. If conditions are poor (downwind, rain, negate aroma ), they might not ever automatically notice them because the zone...
Its already been discussed, that the Scent perception check is virtually automatic, in that most animals with the Scent ability will be able to make a DC 3 Perception check without rolling the dice.
However, you can still stealth. Unless within 5', Scent doesn't tell the Smeller the location of the Sneaker. You just know there are some smelly shoes somewhere nearby. The rest of the stealth would be to defeat the other senses.
There are also ways to mask your smell.
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There are also ways to mask your smell.
yeah. a shower. bathing. not getting gamer funk at cons.
but not a way to mask your smell by walking differently or distributing your weight on the balls of your feet... nothing that should be able to be translated into a direct unaided skill roll.magic or alchemical items would have to be involved to mask scent in game. which would take application/ preparation beforehand.
a simpler answer is a wand of hide from animals. 1 minute duration, walk by. the dog will not scent or hear or see you.
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that's james' opinion
linkwhich at best is guidance for how to run it in a home game. its not an official clarification.
blink... just read what you linked and what you linked actually is proof that its exactly the opposite of what you say it is.
You boggle my mind.
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There are also ways to mask your smell.yeah. a shower. bathing. not getting gamer funk at cons.
but not a way to mask your smell by walking differently or distributing your weight on the balls of your feet... nothing that should be able to be translated into a direct unaided skill roll.magic or alchemical items would have to be involved to mask scent in game. which would take application/ preparation beforehand.
a simpler answer is a wand of hide from animals. 1 minute duration, walk by. the dog will not scent or hear or see you.
Just as you don't always see someone sneaking around the corner of a building or into a doorway, even though you have line of sight to them. You aren't directly looking at them, so they can try to sneak past your perception. If you are particularly alert that day, you might see them.
Stealth is a lot more than walking quietly or hunkering down behind a shrubbery or sticking to the shadows.
I remember reading a nonfiction novel once about a guy who was tracking a bear who'd been shot and was angry and was a threat to the human population of that particular region. He made sure to stay downwind of it so that he could get close enough to take a kill shot without the bear getting a chance to maul him.
Ever been a room with a gassy friend? Dependent on the state of your allergies, which way the HVAC is blowing the air, or in general which way the odious gas decides to diffuse throughout the air, determines who gets to smell the gift.
Smell is not automatic just because you are within 30'.
The perception check has absolutely nothing to do with defeating the stealth of the individual.
The Scent perception check is to determine, dependent on all the mitigating factors, whether you can smell that someone is within your range of smelling. It is nearly automatic for a simple 30' with no other mitigating factors.
The stealth would determine if the dog also saw or heard the person trying to sneak.
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that's james' opinion
linkwhich at best is guidance for how to run it in a home game. its not an official clarification.
So now we end up with two equally valid interpretations, but one is modeled a little bit more according to reality, is supported by an important Paizo staff member, and allows a more game-mechanically rich play experience. Whichever shall I use. :p
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How Scent actually works aside *Though I kind of agree with Seraphimpunk with James when it come to rule calls, he is terrible at it and is wrong many times, would have more if it came from Jason or SKL, and it deserves a post in the rules sections* A Gm can not just change rules, but he can interpret rules that are not clear, based on everything he has.
How Scent actually works aside *Though I kind of agree with Seraphimpunk with James when it come to rule calls, he is terrible at it and is wrong many times, would have more if it came from Jason or SKL, and it deserves a post in the rules sections* A Gm can not just change rules, but he can interpret rules that are not clear, based on everything he has.
+1
Random board posts are random.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Arizona—Tucson
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While I wouldn't want to nerf Scent entirely, the Stealth skill involves hiding from perception, which could reasonably include olfactory perception. While hiding one's scent might normally be more difficult than hiding in shadows or moving silently, it's not hard to envision someone taking advantage of air movement or a distracting odor to momentarily mask their scent.
If I concluded that the Scent ability infallably overcame stealth, the game results would be both unbalanced and unrealistic. I prefer to interpret stealth as a potent, but not invincible, ability.
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A few things, after looking at Perception, I think there is a Perception check for Scent, since it says this.
Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.
I will let everyone else argue the rest, though this would have been much clearer from the start if that part was in the scent ability and I did not have to go search for it some where else.
Though I would be inclined to say that This line from Stealth says that Stealth does not work against Scent without some other help.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth.
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The forum is the right place to have this sort of discussion. However were this to be happening instead at an OP table, I'd be less excited. If this or any other hypothetical rules situation were to arise, does a GM get to have the ultimate answer of "Frack it, we're doing it my way so deal with it."Or must an OP GM assuage any and all rules issues whenever they come up?
You absolutely may run your table, and make rulings as necessary. Fozzy is right that you should obviously make an effort to make the correct rules calls, but sometimes things fall into conflicting interpretations (like Scent/Stealth) or outside the rules completely.
I frequently start my sessions with a brief statement that I welcome rules input from the players, but that sometimes I will just have to make a call and keep things moving.
Many stores and conventions only allow you a 4 hour window, including mustering and paperwork. While many scenarios can be easily completed in that time, many cannot... especially if you get bogged down in long rules discussions/ lookup sessions.
The forum is the right place to have this sort of discussion. However were this to be happening instead at an OP table, I'd be less excited. If this or any other hypothetical rules situation were to arise, does a GM get to have the ultimate answer of "Frack it, we're doing it my way so deal with it."Or must an OP GM assuage any and all rules issues whenever they come up?
You absolutely may run your table, and make rulings as necessary. Fozzy is right that you should obviously make an effort to make the correct rules calls, but sometimes things fall into conflicting interpretations (like Scent/Stealth) or outside the rules completely.
I frequently start my sessions with a brief statement that I welcome rules input from the players, but that sometimes I will just have to make a call and keep things moving.
Many stores and conventions only allow you a 4 hour window, including mustering and paperwork. While many scenarios can be easily completed in that time, many cannot... especially if you get bogged down in long rules discussions/ lookup sessions.
I will add to Neil's statement that as adamant and strident as I might be on the board here, at the table I defer to the GM. If any rules discussion at the table runs for more than 30 seconds I'll try to jump forward with "I think the GM should make his call, whatever it is, and after the module we can look up to see what the rule actually is."
During time when I'm waiting for a turn, I'll find the relevant rules text and mark it, and after the session, I'll generally say something like, "Just for future reference, here's the rules text for X."
Really, the time to talk the rules is outside of game (here, while waiting for the session, after the session, whatever). During the game is where all the time you spent debating rules boils into make a call, keep playing, keep the fun going. Never argue the rules with the GM during the session. Time is too short, and generally it interrupts the story. I'd much rather stay in role and trust that I've trained the GM (at least that's how I think of it :)) well enough by now.
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I will add to Neil's statement that as adamant and strident as I might be on the board here, at the table I defer to the GM. If any rules discussion at the table runs for more than 30 seconds I'll try to jump forward with "I think the GM should make his call, whatever it is, and after the module we can look up to see what the rule actually is."During time when I'm waiting for a turn, I'll find the relevant rules text and mark it, and after the session, I'll generally say something like, "Just for future reference, here's the rules text for X."
Really, the time to talk the rules is outside of game (here, while waiting for the session, after the session, whatever). During the game is where all the time you spent debating rules boils into make a call, keep playing, keep the fun going. Never argue the rules with the GM during the session. Time is too short, and generally it interrupts the story. I'd much rather stay in role and trust that I've trained the GM (at least that's how I think of it :)) well enough by now.
You're welcome at any table I run, anytime :)
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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A few things, after looking at Perception, I think there is a Perception check for Scent, since it says this.
Creatures with the scent special quality have a +8 bonus on Perception checks made to detect a scent.I will let everyone else argue the rest, though this would have been much clearer from the start if that part was in the scent ability and I did not have to go search for it some where else.
Though I would be inclined to say that This line from Stealth says that Stealth does not work against Scent without some other help.
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can’t use Stealth.
This complicates matters! TBH the description of Scent where it simply says that the creature with scent can detect the presence of someone within a certain range and their location within 5 and then goes on to specify a mechanic where scent is used with Survival to allow tracking seemed to be clear. If they had wanted a mechanic for using scent to perceive then they would have stated one alongside the tracking rules. As they didn't I could not infer from the word "can" that it meant "could do so if it succeeds at a Perception DC set by an opposed skill".
So I guess there could be circumstances outside of the usual ranges for upwind/downwind/very smelly that might lead a creature with Scent to need use perception to smell someone? Thus explaining why a seemingly automatic success (with the ranges set) has a +8 perception DC.
BUT....If it was only in those circumstances why did the rules on Perception and Tremor Sense which immeadiately follow the Scent section specify Tremor sense auto suceeds as long as it is in range while saying no such thing about Scent???
W
this came up during a game recently.
my character got to act in the surprize round and won init and moved up on the BBG (as in right beside). No attack - just a move action.
the Judge said, "He draws his sword, so you get an AOO".
I said, "for what? Drawing a weapon doesn't cause an AOO".
Judge reply "sure it does, it has sense 3.0"
Me... "Ah... no. but ok. wait - I don't have a weapon out, all I have is a mug of beer (my holy symbol) - so I'll offer him a drink."
Should I have gone ahead and taken the AOO? My PC actually had out his ax when he moved up - I wanted an AOO if the BBG was spell casting (and my character is designed to "draw fire" anyway). But it felt like I would have been cheating - I know there is no AOO for drawing? Later I drew my ax to soak off his AOO so the party rogue could move past him and flank.
(and after the game I showed the judge the table in the Core book - at which he said "wow, I keep getting these PF changes from 3.0 popping up". I didn't argue this, 'cause it didn't matter. He's more likely to do it right in the future which is all that really matters).
So do you play by the rules when you know them? or use the rules you know the DM is wrong on during play and correct him later?
Table: Move Actions
Action Attack of Opportunity
Move Yes
Control a frightened mount Yes
Direct or redirect an active spell No
Draw a weapon2 No
Load a hand crossbow or light crossbow Yes
Open or close a door No
Mount a horse or dismount No
Move a heavy object Yes
Pick up an item Yes
Sheathe a weapon Yes
Stand up from prone Yes
Ready or loose a shield2 No
Retrieve a stored item YesDraw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Your GM was more than a little out of date.
Personally, I try not to take advantage of a GM's lack of rules knowledge. It's a hard temptation though, and I can't claim that I always live up to my own ideal.
I like the "I offer him a drink!" idea. Sounded like a fine way to run up against that line.
You're welcome at any table I run, anytime :)
I will add to Neil's statement that as adamant and strident as I might be on the board here, at the table I defer to the GM. If any rules discussion at the table runs for more than 30 seconds I'll try to jump forward with "I think the GM should make his call, whatever it is, and after the module we can look up to see what the rule actually is."During time when I'm waiting for a turn, I'll find the relevant rules text and mark it, and after the session, I'll generally say something like, "Just for future reference, here's the rules text for X."
Really, the time to talk the rules is outside of game (here, while waiting for the session, after the session, whatever). During the game is where all the time you spent debating rules boils into make a call, keep playing, keep the fun going. Never argue the rules with the GM during the session. Time is too short, and generally it interrupts the story. I'd much rather stay in role and trust that I've trained the GM (at least that's how I think of it :)) well enough by now.
Sir, I thank you.
Thanks Fozzy. The "Have a bear!" is my dwarven clerics tag line (can you guess his diety?). I also do try not to "take advantage of the GMs" - I much prefer to play with the GM rather than against him. I try to avoid the ones who have to play against the players.
A dwarf saying "Have a bear!" lol! Yep, I bet they appeal to some.
Thinking about Legolas and Gimli and those late nights at Helms Deep...
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This complicates matters! TBH the description of Scent where it simply says that the creature with scent can detect the presence of someone within a certain range and their location within 5 and then goes on to specify a mechanic where scent is used with Survival to allow tracking seemed to be clear. If they had wanted a mechanic for using scent to perceive then they would have stated one alongside the tracking rules. As they didn't I could not infer from the word "can" that it meant "could do so if it succeeds at a Perception DC set by an opposed skill".So I guess there could be circumstances outside of the usual ranges for upwind/downwind/very smelly that might lead a creature with Scent to need use perception to smell someone? Thus explaining why a seemingly automatic success (with the ranges set) has a +8 perception DC.
BUT....If it was only in those circumstances why did the rules on Perception and Tremor Sense which immeadiately follow the Scent section specify Tremor sense auto suceeds as long as it is in range while saying no such thing about Scent???
W
The part about tremorsense auto-succeeding is why do not think scent auto-succeeds and I run it pretty much like any other stealth check. Sight based hindrances (invisibility, etc) would not apply to this check and the scenter would get his +8. It would also be modified by other factors (i.e. a herd of skunks just went by).
Also the Stealth skill to me is the ability to make yourself, well... stealthy. When I go deer hunting, there is actually things I can do to lessen my scent to the deer so there are things you can do to make yourself more stealthy to scent.|
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You absolutely may run your table, and make rulings as necessary. Fozzy is right that you should obviously make an effort to make the correct rules calls, but sometimes things fall into conflicting interpretations (like Scent/Stealth) or outside the rules completely.
Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to see, and from someone of some apparent authority to boot! :D I had no idea this many worms would pop out of this can I opened... but it's a perfect demonstration. I'm sure that if the GM didn't tamp it down, a rules argument (such as this one) COULD potentially chew up so much time as to ruin a 4 hour adventure.
I'd also like to thank Fozzy in particular, I'd definately agree with his position that a GM should use rule #1 rarely and only with good reason.
And thanks to everyone else, too. I said it before and I'll say it again, seeing these conflicting ideas is wonderful food for thought (when we're not wasting adventure time!)
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The part about tremorsense auto-succeeding is why do not think scent auto-succeeds and I run it pretty much like any other stealth check. Sight based hindrances (invisibility, etc) would not apply to this check and the scenter would get his +8. It would also be modified by other factors (i.e. a herd of skunks just went by).
Also the Stealth skill to me is the ability to make yourself, well... stealthy. When I go deer hunting, there is actually things I can do to lessen my scent to the deer so there are things you can do to make yourself more stealthy to scent.
okay, just consider there's other modifiers too. sure staying downwind is something that's good to do, but if you're not a hunter or don't know about nature you might not realize which way the wind is even blowing. and to be honest: how many of your characters carry soap. you travel for days at a time on horseback, sleeping and camping in the side of the road. its glossed over because its not some of the best parts of fantasy role playing, but: you stink! you stink pretty bad! there's more than just class differences when nobles don't want to associate with adventurers.
the table of perception check examples also doesn't give an example of "noticing a creature by scent", is it 0 ? detecting smoke? 0 for noticing a visible creature? if they gave it, wouldn't an elf or gnome be able to detect you by scent and ignore some of your vaunted stealth?
wikipedia ( omg i'm bringing real life into it )
It is estimated that dogs in general have an olfactory sense approximately a hundred thousand to a million times more acute than a human's. This does not mean they are overwhelmed by smells our noses can detect; rather, it means they can discern a molecular presence when it is in much greater dilution in the carrier, air. Scenthounds as a group can smell one- to ten-million times more acutely than a human, and Bloodhounds, which have the keenest sense of smell of any dogs[citation needed], have noses ten- to one-hundred-million times more sensitive than a human's. They were bred for the specific purpose of tracking humans, and can detect a scent trail a few days old. The second-most-sensitive nose is possessed by the Basset Hound, which was bred to track and hunt rabbits and other small animals.
if it were my game, i would just make it a flat DC. if you're not downwind ( and winds can change, so unless the PC was trying to approach from downwind i'd use normal conditions ) , and get within 30 ft. i'd make it a flat DC check for the dog to notice you. since you smell, and since it had +8. it would auto make the dc 10 check and notice you. Since the dog already has a +8 to perception, a +16 would pretty well auto detect you. would i tell you all this beforehand? maybe not, because thats when great robbery capers go wrong: the unexpected.
a great rogue would climb over or distract the dogs with drugged meat, ::shrug:: even in video games , the dogs area of awareness is much greater than the human guards. so you give them a wide berth or you use magic or equipment to help mask your smell and give you favorable conditions. so the DC to notice you would be 10 or 12 or 14. the dog would still be likely to notice you. but it wouldn't be automatic.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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( omg i'm bringing real life into it )Which means you lose.
Perception as only one skill for all the senses (and please note that its not just spot and listen) isn't realistic. But then neither is a turn based system, lack of facing and a myriad of other things.
The rules are fairly clear. Its just that this is a difference from 3.5 and it was not given the verbiage that perhaps it is entitled.
-James
James
The rules are not clear and in the absence of clarity no one is a winner!
The scent section does appear pretty clear in that it must auto work as it simply says creatuires "can" detect without defining it mechanically i.e. by linking it to any skill e.g. Pereption. The Perception skill information then makes it unclear again by giving hints to a mechanic that we have to infer from what is and what isn't written!
For what it's worth, speed reading other threads ppl have come down on both sides of the argument though I am left feeling a majority favour the "it just works approach".
Scent is a bit like being able to hear with your nose. No matter how good you are at hugging the shadows if you enter the room and start singing at the top of your lungs you will get detected.
We don't require Perception checks for PCs to talk to eachother even in the heat of battle neither should we allow a stealth roll to ignore the lound and tuneless singing eminating from the would be stealther!
If you have a doggy nose then allowing for wind and real stinkyness there is an area within which you will notice something new if that new something comes in and in an olfactory sense yells it's arrival.
W
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Perception covers smell, i get that. I can wrap my head around Paizo unifying detection / senses / awareness into one skill. I get that. I can even see them giving creatures with the scent ability a +8 on perception checks to notice a smell. I don't notice a DC for a smell for anything above smoke or garbage though.
And what I can't wrap my head around is Stealth as a universal anti-detection skill , including masking your own odors and miraculously stopping your body from producing any odd smells.
Other advanced senses work as auto detections vs. stealth, with varying degrees of accuracy. Blindsense w/ an unobstructed path to a sneaking character automatically detects them. tremorsense, blindsight. Darkvision prevents you from using one of the most common concealment conditions: lighting, from hiding.
Scent ability allows you to detect if something is close to you. its not as fast acting as the other supersensory abilities, but its as accurate and as automatic.
Until a developer with the credentials of SKR or an errata on the matter, I run scent as an autodetect. RAW. It works both ways too. Wizards and Druids with animal companions or riding dogs / horses with scent can try to use them in rough encounters to detect for invisible foes. I've seen it put to good use vs. a foe with greater invisibility in one mod.