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I am sorry if this concept is used, but I wanted to see what you guys thought about it.
I hope this is alright, I just find this funny how every other class had a Gunslinger archtype really. I know Alchemists already have a "black powder" feel to them with their bombs and everything, but I wanted to have it more based on Guns and Grenades really. So I decided to make something with a feel of guns and grenades really, so I wanted to check out what you guys thought on the class. I basically changed things like the feat bonus and bomb options, so I hope it is alright...
Alchemic Gun (SU): The black powder alchemist gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one of her firearms can be an alchemic gun. Alchemic guns are normal onehanded or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as most people, other then the black powder alchemist, know how to use them effectivly. In a black powder alchemist’s hands, it can both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and be used to fire alchemy bombs as bullets.
Instead of making a normal Bomb, a black powder alchemist may create an alchemic bullet. The black powder alchemist can istead use a move action to create and load the alchemist gun with the bomb. In which case it will need to be fired before the end of the turn or cause the fire to jam (making it misfire, even without attacking). The bomb uses the base attack bonus and the range of the gun that is loaded with it, but the effect of the bomb remains the same. This ability replaces throw anything.
Bombs (SU): A black powder alchemist's bombs deal damage one die step lower than normal (regular bombs deal d4s, concussive bombs deal 1d3s, and so on). This ability otherwise functions as and replaces the standard alchemist bomb class feature.
Grit (EX): At 2nd level, a black powder alchemists gain the amateur gunslinger feat. A black powder alchemist may use their intelligence modifier instead of their wisdom modifier to determine the number of grit points they may have at maximum. This ability replaces poison use.
Nimble (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a black powder alchemist gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. Anything that causes the black powder alchemist to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the gunslinger to lose this dodge bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This ability replaces, poison resistance, and poison immunity.
Grit Discovery (SU): A black powder alchemist may choose any gunslinger grit ability they are qualified for in place of a Discovery.
Oh dude... You sure must had stolen that archetype from my mind! =D
I made an alchemist archetype at the playtests, much more complicated, and based on Maxximilius and Elghinn ideas. But it didn't went on.
After the Ultimate Combat release I come back toying with the archetype in my mind. And, gosh, I thinkered the EXACT same abilities, only giving up the mutagen instead of the lower bomb dice and the poison use.
Also a new discoveries, lowering/forfeiting the misfire chance increases when using alchemical cartridges.
Anyway, kudos. It's a very nice archetype (great minds think alike, I suppose?), but I still think that the mutagen doesn't have much to do with a Black Powder Alchemist...
Haha xD I assure you, I made this up as soon as I saw Ultimate Combat and saw there was no Gun based alchemist (yet there was an wizard combat?)
But ya, I would very much like to see yours if you would like to play around with it really? Just wondering exactly, and LOL! xD I guess great minds do think alike.
The reason I removed poison use, was because most Guns would burn the poison as it was fired before it would be able to actually inflict the damage, unless it was a capsule pellet (which cannot be applied to a weapon, only created) and I thought black powder alchemists wouldn't be using the test tube and beakers that the other alchemists use, and instead use black powder and firearms. So I thought Poison use and Poison resistence didn't seem accurate fluff ways...
As for the mutagen, I thought it would be a common drug enhancing thing, like what some mulitary men do, using drugs to enhance their physical abilities.
But I will think about changing Mutagen to something else, I will be back later. Thank you for your impute, it really helped ^^
That isn't right... I can't edit my original Post! Dx
Oh well, Updated Version Below, Please Ignore the first setup. I have made some edit's based on the Mutagen. Seeing as this is a Grander base class that can fire their Alchemy Bombs with specialized guns, I wouldn't see why they would need the Mutagen I guess. Though it seems like a waste just giving it up, Oh well~
If ANYONE wants to play test these, please be my guest to. Anyone is welcome to these ideas for their game.
Anything Marked with "(?)" Means that I am questioning it. Be free to criticize anything you think should be.
Gunsmith (EX): The black powder alchemist gains the Gunsmithing feat and a battered gun that is identical to the gun a gunslinger gains at first level. Like a gunslinger, a black powder alchemist can use the Gunsmithing feat to restore his battered gun. This ability replaces brew potion.
Alchemical Gun (SU): The black powder alchemist gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one of her firearms can be an alchemical gun. Alchemical guns are normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as most people, other then the black powder alchemist, know how to use them effectively. In a black powder alchemist’s hands, it can both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and be used to fire alchemy bombs as bullets.
Instead of making a normal Bomb, a black powder alchemist may create an alchemical bullet. The black powder alchemist can instead use a move action to create and load the alchemist gun with the bomb. In which case it will need to be fired before the end of the turn or cause the fire to jam (making it misfire, even without attacking). The bomb uses the base attack bonus and the range of the gun that is loaded with it, but the effect of the bomb remains the same. When a black powder alchemist uses an alchemical bullet, she increases the misfire chance by 1 for that firearm.
If the black powder alchemist chooses to create a new alchemical gun, or if the alchemical gun is destroyed by some means and she does not want to, or cannot repair the gun, she is able to make a new alchemical gun with a full day of work within an alchemical lab. This ability replaces Mutagen.
Grit (EX): At 2nd level, a black powder alchemists gain the amateur gunslinger feat. A black powder alchemist may use their intelligence modifier instead of their wisdom modifier to determine the number of grit points they may have at maximum. This ability replaces poison use.
Nimble (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a black powder alchemist gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. Anything that causes the black powder alchemist to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes the gunslinger to lose this dodge bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This ability replaces, poison resistance, and poison immunity.
Grit Discovery (SU): A black powder alchemist may choose any gunslinger grit ability they are qualified for in place of a Discovery.
Alchemical Ammunition Specialist: The alchemist can use alchemical cartridges without increasing the chance for a misfire for that firearm. The alchemist must be able to use firearms in one way or another before select she may this discovery.
Black Powder Specialist: An alchemist with this discovery can use black powder for other things then just gun ammunition, by infusing it into another substance they can make an inorganic object explosive. This takes about one hour in an alchemical lab to complete, and takes one use of one dose per pounce the alchemist is trying to make explosive. The damage the object deals is 1d6 damage per pound of the object (Reflex 10 + Alchemist Level + alchemist Intelligence Modifier), and the explosion is 5 feet for every 5 pounds of the object. The object can be detected as an explosive with a Perception check against the Craft(alchemy) check of the alchemist, and anyone who succeeds know the damage it would deal as well as it's range. An Alchemist must be 10th level before selecting this discovery.
Grit Alchemist: Increase the number of Grit points the alchemist starts with per day by 1 as well as their maximum grit total. This Discovery can only be selected once every 5 levels. The Alchemist must have Grit points from another class or amateur gunslinger before she may select this discovery.
Explosives Expert: The alchemist bombs become more dangerous to those who are exposed to them. Increase the direct damage for her bombs deal damage one die step higher than what they do, and the splash damage increases by 1 for every damage die used. an alchemist must be 10th(?) level before selecting this feat.
Modern Warfare (?)
"Skilled with the ever growing popularity of firearms, you are able to deal more damage with these new weaponry."(?)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with firearms or a splash throwing weapon
Benefits: Gain a +2 bonus to damage by firearms and splash damage.
Grit Alchemy (Grit Feat)
"By grabbing what you have on your personal, you are able to make a crude, but affective bomb when you need it most..."
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or amateur gunslinger, bombs class feature.
Benefits: You can spend on Grit point from your pool to create a bomb that follows the same rules as an alchemists bomb, except this does not count towards your daily limit. If the bomb deals any damage, it deals only half damage (rounded up), and a successful reflex save negates the damage.
There will be more Feats to come later, but for now, these are the feats that are more related to the alchemist. Hope everyone enjoys it all, I spent a lot of time creating these. Please any feed back would be appreciated, i would play test this myself, but I have no group to play with. Thank you for helping, and I would love to see this in an upcoming book if they are able to make it. :P (Hint, hint) xD
Ah, it's great! It's way better than my original archetype, and the way I wanted the new version to be. Just some input:
Instead of making a normal Bomb, a black powder alchemist may create an alchemical bullet. The black powder alchemist can instead use a move action to create and load the alchemist gun with the bomb. In which case it will need to be fired before the end of the turn or cause the fire to jam (making it misfire, even without attacking). The bomb uses the base attack bonus and the range of the gun that is loaded with it, but the effect of the bomb remains the same. When a black powder alchemist uses an alchemical bullet, she increases the misfire chance by 1 for that firearm.
I have some mixed feelings about the load time/misfire clause. While I recognise that it need balance, it's not funny to being stuck with shooting a bomb (and only that) in one entire round. That way I cannot go adventuring with a bomb loaded, ready to be launched. I we use the normal load time of the firearm Rapid Reload can be used to shorten the time. We are effectivelly treating the bombs as alchemical cartridges, the misfire increase suits it, and it can benefit from the Alchemical Munition Specialist discovery. This way, you can leave the auto-misfire clause.
Also you should stat what happens when bombs are fired from a enchanted firearm (abilities are aplied on the direct hit, I suppose?).Alchemical Ammunition Specialist
Ok at it. I would make it that only alchemical cartridges created by the alchemist (and only used by him) would not increase misfire chance. And a prerequisite, maybe alchemist 4th?
Black Powder Specialist
I do not really understand it. You create a bomb from infusing black powder in the object, ok. How you detonate it? Mentally? Hitting it? How long it stay active? How many bombs can I have active at any time? Also, if you want one to know that that shelf is a bomb, change the check for a Craft Alchemy, or Perception to see that the shelf is ticking (?) and then the Craft Alch to perceive that it's a bomb. To know the damage is a little bit metagame. To know only that the bigger the object, bigger the damage/radius is ok.
Grit Alchemist
So-so. Extra Grit gives you the double, but at lest you are not burning a feat.
Explosive Expert
Really powerful. Maybe as a Grand Discovery?
Modern Warfare
OP. It's like a (better)Weapon Specialization plus Grenadier feat with (pratically) no prerequisites. Too powerful.
Grit Alchemy
Creative. I liked it!
I like this archetype, might use it.
Thought it'd be the first one rather than second. Remember that mutagen can be used to boost Dex as well, making you a better gunner.
As for what Fred wrote, I'd suggest adding a clause such as Black Powder Specialist being triggered by Fire Damage or a shot from firearms, as well as working with Delay Bomb feat/discovery for remote detonation and even maybe with Implant Bomb.
I like alch bombs, but they feel more like a status effect ability rather than BIG BADA BOOM! this could give a second feature to cover that area.
@Jamie Charlan :: Ya, I knew about the Alchemist descovery, which is why I made the Alchemical Gun really. Though they are very similar in the fact that they determain the range of the bomb with the ability, the major differences between the two are that the explosive missile is a descovery (needing to use a descovery to do it in the first place), counts for crossbows and bows, can only be used with one handed firearms, it deals damage from the ammunition AND detonates the bomb, and the bomb doesn't detonate if the attack misses. For the Black Powder Alchemist cannot use crossbows, can use any firearm they modified into an alchemical gun, it only deals damage from the detonated bomb, and it only determines the range of the bomb with the range of the gun (you don't need a Hit/Miss chance). Similar, but made with a check in mind to make them different enough to count.
As for the Rapid Reload comment, I didn't even think of that, nor did I think of Swift Alchemy. I guess taking out Swift Poisoning would be alright (since they lost poison use, poison resistence, and all that). And make it so an Alchemist making ammunition bombs for their Alchemical Gun could make them as a Free action (Rapid Reload needed to load it as a free action?) to make it so they can do more then just fire 1 time a turn with the alchemical ammuntion at 3rd level? Keep in mind, they don't have to load the Gun to use the bomb, they can simply throw it if they want to.
The grit thing I overlooked, I will reword it in the next update of the class, thank you. Your Gunpowder Specialist is a GREAT idea I believe, I will be changing it to that in the next update as well.
@Fredunchio :: Before I begin, I thank you for being so enthusiatic about this. Most people who comment on my posts comment once and then leave without helping sand out the edges, I again thank you for your help with this. Now, as for what you said: I think the Misfire thing would be alright, I will remove the "Mifires at the end of the turn if not used" clause, but I thought of adding an increased misfire chance because they are, in fact, a alchemists personal alchemical cartrages. You will be seeing that change. For Alchemical Ammunition specialist, I believe you are correct there. 4th level seems decent, as it would make them sweat it out the first few levels using their bombs as alchemical ammuntion, and I think it would also be alright to add the "made by them" too. Blackpowder Specialist, I am changing the effect next update. Grit Alchemy I added to make it so, if they wanted, they could burn an unneeded descovery for a grit point. Modern warfare, i am changing. I am glad you like Grit Alchemy, it basically wanted to mimic that one Grit feat that gives you blackpowder or ammunition, except make it for an alchemical bomb instead. Changing Explosive Expert to a Grand Descovery with a few modifications (since you only gain 1 grand descovery, it would make it a little weak to only "increase damage by 1 dice" I think).
@Tyki11: lol, I agree with you on that, I don't know why I took the mutigan out to begin with, I was just having my dumb moments. Tell me how it runs though, I would very much like to see how balanced this class would be while testing, give me the feedback on how it ran. *Edit* I remember now! xD I'm stupid, sorry. If you really want a Mutagin, you don't permanently loss it, because you can select it as a Discovery, lol. Still changing it back though, but thanks for reminding me ^^;
Give me a little to update, and I will post the updated version withint 30-60 minutes.
*Edit: I didn't bother to re-read, sorry, but to the one who suggested any scatter weapon I would ask you look at the Spellslinger's Arcane Gun. I got most of the text used for that really.
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Update for the Black Powder Alchemist
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Alchemical Gun (SU): The black powder alchemist gains the Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearms) feat, and one of her firearms can be an alchemical gun. Alchemical guns are considered normal one-handed or two-handed firearms in the hands of others, as most people other then the black powder alchemist know how to use them effectively. In a black powder alchemist’s hands, it can both fire projectiles (bullets and pellets) and be used to fire alchemy bombs as bullets if the black powder alchemist chooses to do so.
Instead of making a normal Bomb, a black powder alchemist may create an alchemical bullet. The black powder alchemist can instead use a move action to create and load the alchemist gun with the bomb. The bomb uses the base attack bonus and the range of the gun that is loaded with it, but the effect of the bomb remains the same. When a black powder alchemist uses an alchemical bullet, she increases the misfire chance by 1 for that firearm. When the black powder alchemist gains swift alchemy 3rd level, she may instead craft and load her alchemical gun as a free action instead of a move action. Bombs used by this ability are counted as alchemical cartridges that she made.
If the black powder alchemist chooses to create a new alchemical gun, or if the alchemical gun is destroyed by some means and she does not want to, or cannot repair the gun, she is able to make a new alchemical gun with a full day of work within an alchemical lab, using alchemy ingredients worth 1/10 of the cost of the gun that she is modifing. This ability replaces Mutagen.
Grit (EX): At 2nd level, a black powder alchemists gain the amateur gunslinger feat. A black powder alchemist may use their intelligence modifier instead of their wisdom modifier to determine the number of grit points they may have at maximum. At 6th level, a blackpowder alchemist may select a bonus grit feat and add 1 grit point to the number of grit points she begin the day with. This ability replaces poison use and swift poisoning.
Nimble (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a black powder alchemist gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC while wearing light or no armor. Anything that causes the black powder alchemist to lose her Dexterity bonus to AC also causes them to lose this dodge bonus. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd level (to a maximum of +5 at 20th level). This ability replaces, poison resistance, and poison immunity.
Grit Discovery (SU): A black powder alchemist may choose any gunslinger grit ability they are qualified for using their alchemist level to determine their gunslinger level in place of a Discovery.
Black Powder Specialist: An alchemist my expend 1 dose of blackpowder to increase a bomb's blast radius by 5ft or increase the the damage delt by the bomb by one dice. An alchemist can only use one dose of black powder per bomb for this ability. An alchemist can select this descovery multiple times, each time increasing the maximum number od black powder doses they can use per bumb by 1.
Grit Alchemist: Increase the number of Grit points the alchemist starts with per day by 1 as well as their maximum grit total. This Discovery can only be selected once every 5 levels. The Alchemist must have Grit points from another class or amateur gunslinger before she may select this discovery.
Explosive Fanatic: Increase the Number of Bombs an alchemist can create ber day by 1. An alchemist must be 6th level before selecting this discovery. This discovery can be selected multiple times, but only once per 5 levels.
"Skilled with the ever growing popularity of firearms, you are able to deal more damage with these new weaponry."(?)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with firearms and the ability to throw bombs, Throw Anything feat.
Benefits: Gain a +2 bonus to damage by firearms and splash damage.
Grit Alchemy (Grit Feat)
"By grabbing what you have on your personal, you are able to make a crude, but affective bomb when you need it most..."
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or amateur gunslinger, bombs class feature.
Benefits: You can spend on Grit point from your pool to create a bomb that follows the same rules as an alchemists bomb, except this does not count towards your daily limit. If the bomb deals any damage, it deals only half damage (rounded up), and a successful reflex save negates the damage.
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Update for the Black Powder Alchemist
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** spoiler omitted **...
Explosives Expert: The alchemist's bombs become more dangerous to those who are exposed to them. Increase the direct damage for her bombs by one die step, and increase the splash damage by 1 for every damage die used (splash damage is calculated as if every die roll was a 2 instead of a 1). Increase a bomb's blast radius of splash weapons by 5ft.
Just reworded that one for you.
Modern Warfare (?) <-- How about Thaumaturgy Warfare? That way it would be more specific to the Black Powder Alchemist archetype
"Skilled with the ever growing popularity of firearms, you are able to deal more damage with these new weaponry."(?)
Prerequisites: Proficiency with firearms and the ability to throw bombs, Throw Anything feat.
Benefits: Gain a +2 bonus to damage by firearms and splash damage.
If you combine this with explosives expert, you're really raising the splash damage on these bombs. I would suggest that you instead just give a straight +1 bonus on attack and damage with an alchemical cartridge. This bonus would be specific enough to not be overpowered, but still be a significant upgrade for the Black Powder Alchemist.
If it's okay with you, I'd like to cross-post this on Elghinn's multiclass archetypes thread, because really this is a great mesh of Alchemist and Gunslinger, and it definitely belongs there. Cool?
If you would like to, I give you permission to ^^
And ya, your wording is much better then mind, I would edit it if I could right now, but Paizo is stupid with the fact you can't edit it after it's been there for 10 minutes xD <otherwise, I wouldn't have seperate update threads>
But ya, those seem like good erreta's for the feat and I like the re-wording.
Really, this was suppose to me more of a class archtype (Like the Vieasonalchemist (or whatever its called) get's sneak attack and stuff.
:P
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If you would like to, I give you permission to ^^
And ya, your wording is much better then mind, I would edit it if I could right now, but Paizo is stupid with the fact you can't edit it after it's been there for 10 minutes xD <otherwise, I wouldn't have seperate update threads>But ya, those seem like good erreta's for the feat and I like the re-wording.
Really, this was suppose to me more of a class archtype (Like the Vieasonalchemist (or whatever its called) get's sneak attack and stuff.
:P
Rewritten and cross-posted here.
Before I begin, I thank you for being so enthusiatic about this. Most people who comment on my posts comment once and then leave without helping sand out the edges, I again thank you for your help with this.
[Dave Strifer]we are making this happen bro[/Dave Strifer]
I liked the Thaumaturgic Warfare feat, more balanced. You still should specify what happens with a bomb shooted from a enchanted firearm.
Also, if you want to use Mutagens, UM made it a discovery. =]
@Catmanbeck: lol, alright, good luck with that :P
@ Freuncio: I think it say's it clearly. it uses the range and base attack bonus of the gun you use. So I guess a +4 weapon would have a +4 bonus to the attack? lol
About a +1 Eletric dragon pistol? xd6 fire + 1d6 eletric + Int Mod + 1 damage on a direct hit? And about splash damage?
About a +1 Eletric dragon pistol? xd6 fire + 1d6 eletric + Int Mod + 1 damage on a direct hit? And about splash damage?
Only says it uses Range and base attack bonus
Damage is not calculated along with the gun ^^;So a +1 Electric Dragon Pistol has the Range of 20 ft., and the Base attack bonus of +1, everything else is based on the damage of the bomb as normal.
Though a +1 Electric Dragon Pistol would be a good idea to use would only be able to use Alchemist level +intelligence modifier Alchemical Bullets per day, so when you do run out of your bombs per day, you can use normal ammunition with the gun bonus.
Do you think it should do ammunition damage to?
Ammunition + Bomb damage = Explosive Missile discovery. But enchanted projectile weapons impart they abilities on the ammunition. As we are treating the bomb as ammunition, I think the direct hit should receive any special ability coming from the firearm, be it enhancement damage or extra elemental damage. Splash damage is the normal from the bomb.
And this is Post #10, I am now stuck as Lyall Lousin!~ xD haha
But sounds alright then, next time I update this, I will put that the main target is hit for the extra damage if they use an enchanted weapon while the splash damage is like a normal bomb. Doesn't seem to overpowered...
anything you think should be edited/added to feats and discoveries? I don't wanna post a whole update just for changing one thing.
If you are using cartmanbeck sugestions to Modern Warfare feat and Explosives Expert grand discovery it's fine.
Just need to clarify the action needed for spend the black powder and improve the bomb in Black Powder Specialist (swift? Part of the action needed to throw/shoot the bomb? Spended/improved as you create the catalists?). Also make clear that Alchemical Ammunition Specialist will forfeit the misfire chance for shooting bombs. Finally, check for grammar errors (pshh, says the brazilian spik =/).
Also, you should also post the final version on Multiclass Archetypes thread. Good luck!
Bombs used by this ability are counted as alchemical cartridges that she made.
already made it clear, it's in Alchemical Gun in the second part, last sentence.
:P but will do, lol.