Parry / Block / Dodge

[Cathedralsquares]

I'm thinking about adding in a new action for my game. You can avoid any enemy attack as an immediate action. To avoid with a block/parry make an attack roll. If yours equals or exceeds the attack against you you've successfully avoided it. For dodge roll a d20 and add in any AC modifiers barring shield, deflection, and armor.

What do you think?

[Lathiira]

Done well, it gives martial characters a use for their immediate actions and can have a certain flair. Test it and see! I'd also suggest for dodge that you permit any AC modifiers except for armor, natural armor, and shield; deflection bonuses still make sense as they represent a force pushing attacks away from you. Since you're trying to get out of the way anyway, it just seems to make sense to me that way, though that makes it the equivalent of rolling a d20 to replace the base 10 of your touch AC.

[cartmanbeck]

Cathedralsquares wrote:

I'm thinking about adding in a new action for my game. You can avoid any enemy attack as an immediate action. To avoid with a block/parry make an attack roll. If yours equals or exceeds the attack against you you've successfully avoided it. For dodge roll a d20 and add in any AC modifiers barring shield, deflection, and armor.

What do you think?

This is a good idea, and I'm adding it to my house rules.

[ralantar]

The pitfall with this is that it is going to make combat take a lot longer. Every time a creature attacks you are adding in a 2nd roll to see if they really hit. It is akin to having to confirm a critical but for every single attack.
Also:
How many parries, blocks or dodges can you make in a round? Is there a limit? Can you only block if you have a shield equipped? If I fail to block the attack can I try to dodge it. etc..

Historically DnD has not added in this type of mechanic because it lengthens the amount of game time you spend on each round.
Pick a monster with a typical Claw/Claw/Bite routine. You just added in 3 more dice rolls, and if there is more then one creature...? You get the point.
Essentially the DM has to spend a significantly larger amount of time on the monster's turns then on the parties.
Which can lead to wandering attention on the players part.

I'm not saying it's a bad concept, but over 30 years it has been found to be better making them static numbers in your AC rather then optional reactions decided upon each round. Besides, if given the option who wouldn't try to dodge/block or parry every attack against them. It just meshes better to incorporate them into your AC and keeps the game flowing.

[cartmanbeck]

ralantar wrote:

The pitfall with this is that it is going to make combat take a lot longer. Every time a creature attacks you are adding in a 2nd roll to see if they really hit. It is akin to having to confirm a critical but for every single attack.

Also:
How many parries, blocks or dodges can you make in a round? Is there a limit? Can you only block if you have a shield equipped? If I fail to block the attack can I try to dodge it. etc..

Historically DnD has not added in this type of mechanic because it lengthens the amount of game time you spend on each round.
Pick a monster with a typical Claw/Claw/Bite routine. You just added in 3 more dice rolls, and if there is more then one creature...? You get the point.
Essentially the DM has to spend a significantly larger amount of time on the monster's turns then on the parties.
Which can lead to wandering attention on the players part.

I'm not saying it's a bad concept, but over 30 years it has been found to be better making them static numbers in your AC rather then optional reactions decided upon each round. Besides, if given the option who wouldn't try to dodge/block or parry every attack against them. It just meshes better to incorporate them into your AC and keeps the game flowing.

By default, you only get a single Immediate action per round. So, this would only come into play once per round per player at most.

[Tim4488]

Ways to make it slow gameplay less:

1. Don't include Dodge (it's just part of AC), allow Block/Parry only as a feat.

2. Everyone has it, but if you use this ability, you lose one attack in your next round. Below 6th level, anyone who does it can only move next round (you lose your standard action, period), after that you start losing your lowest iterative attack. You're not adding a die roll so much as changing when it occurs.

For block/parry, I'd like to see an advantage to sword-and-board fighters over two-handers. After all, that's kind of The Point of the shield. Maaaybe two-weapon fighters too... or rather, maybe you could add an ability in the vein of Reach, Trip, etc.

Main-gauche: A weapon with this trait grants its user a +2 bonus on any Parry roll when wielded in the offhand.

Maybe Armor Check Penalty applies to Dodge rolls? Or at the very least you can't apply Dex higher than your armor's Max Dex Mod.

[cartmanbeck]

Tim4488 wrote:

Ways to make it slow gameplay less:

1. Don't include Dodge (it's just part of AC), allow Block/Parry only as a feat.

2. Everyone has it, but if you use this ability, you lose one attack in your next round. Below 6th level, anyone who does it can only move next round (you lose your standard action, period), after that you start losing your lowest iterative attack. You're not adding a die roll so much as changing when it occurs.

For block/parry, I'd like to see an advantage to sword-and-board fighters over two-handers. After all, that's kind of The Point of the shield. Maaaybe two-weapon fighters too... or rather, maybe you could add an ability in the vein of Reach, Trip, etc.

Main-gauche: A weapon with this trait grants its user a +2 bonus on any Parry roll when wielded in the offhand.

Maybe Armor Check Penalty applies to Dodge rolls? Or at the very least you can't apply Dex higher than your armor's Max Dex Mod.

1. I agree that you could just have Block/Parry, but I don't think it needs to be a feat just to be able to perform it. This also means there's no way for non-weapon-wielding characters to use this ability, which might not be totally fair.

2. This would be fine, and would make it fair to everyone. I think that you could have them lose an attack if they block or parry, and lose their 5-foot step if they dodge.

I agree with the shield giving an advantage. Maybe you simply add your shield bonus to your "attack" roll when you block or parry?

Of course you couldn't apply Dex higher than your armor's bonus. You can't apply Dex higher than your armor's bonus on anything, can you? The armor limits the Dex modifier you can use for ANY roll or your AC, right?

[Tim4488]

I actually didn't prefer the feat idea either, I was just throwing it out there. Losing only a 5-foot step for Dodging is gonna hugely favor high-dex light armor builds (Rogues, etc.) If you're okay with that that's one thing, but it's a pretty big deal.

The shield idea sounds about right.

I'm pretty sure you apply your Dex to ranged attack rolls regardless of your armor's Max Dex bonus. I think it only applies to Dex-to-AC. Could be wrong though, haven't combed the rules on that point.

[yukongil]

I use the Trailblazer versions of Block and Dodge already. add half your base attack as either a Dodge bonus to AC, or as DR against an attack.

I recently started to use Parry rules as well to liven up a swashbuckling game. Basically just a counter roll using BAB + Dex + all other bonuses to hit, meet or beat attack roll to neagte.

works really well for me.

[cartmanbeck]

Tim4488 wrote:

I'm pretty sure you apply your Dex to ranged attack rolls regardless of your armor's Max Dex bonus. I think it only applies to Dex-to-AC. Could be wrong though, haven't combed the rules on that point.

Man, you're totally right. I've always assumed that an archer wearing heavy armor would lose a bunch of attack ability, but it seems not to be the case. Wow... I have just been schooled!

[Bwang]

There was such a system back under 3.5, never played with it, but friends did and loved it. No endorsement, just pointing out where it might be found.

[Cathedralsquares]

Block applies to Ranged attacks as well as melee. Parry can only be applied to melee attacks. Given that you only have 1 immediate action a round (IIRC it also eats your swift) you have to pick and choose when and which you want to do.

[Bloodspoor]

This is a really old thread, but I was looking for some ideas for a parry system in my games and I like those posted here, but tell me what you think of these ideas.

Idea 1:
-Both Block and Parry are combat maneuvers, neither of which cause AoO due to how they are applied. Once a player declares that he is blocking or parrying, he may not move and can only make a single attack at his highest BAB. Until his next action, he may block or parry any melee attacks targeting him. If successful, he may make a single attack against the attacker using his highest BAB.
-While blocking, you may add your shield bonus (but not enhancement bonus) to your maneuver.
-Improved Block/Parry feats: Using this feat, add +2 to his CMB. Additionally, he may counter attack an additional blocked/parried attack equal to the number of attacks he could normally make (16/11/6/1 would allow 4). Each of these counter attacks use his highest BAB -5.
-Greater Block/Parry feats: Using this feat, add +2 to his CMB. This stacks with Improved Block/Parry. Additionally, he may move on his turn and no longer takes a -5 on counter attacks.

Idea 2:
-Both Block and Parry can only be used when a person with the initiative is holding their action. To perform either, simply make an attack roll equal to or better than the attacker to avoid being struck. If you beat their attack roll by 10 or more, you may counter-attack at your highest BAB as a free action.
-Alternatively, this may be used while fighting defensively. If done in this manner, you may add +2 to your attack roll.
-When blocking with a shield, add your shield bonus (but not enhancement) to your block roll.

Idea 3: (Uses Idea 1)
-Instead of completely ignoring all damage, a successful block negates a certain amount of damage equal to 1 + shield bonus + shield enhancement bonus + 1 for every 5 points that your exceed the attacker's CMD. This stacks with other forms of damage reduction.

Disclaimer: I feel that these rules should only apply to manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes. Natural attacks such as claws and tails and such should follow different rules. Counter attacks should not be possible against non-humanoid creatures simply because if it was allowed, then those creatures would also be allowed such actions and nobody wants to go BAB vs BAB with a dragon. Every melee attack would get parried and countered. Blocking, however SHOULD be possible but implemented slightly differently. Perhaps by allowing the defender to half damage from natural attacks if successful.

Edit: It should also be noted that you cannot counter attack with the same weapon used to block or parry. That is to say, that using a shield to block, you cannot make a shield bash as your attack and that the only two-handed weapons able to make counter attacks would be double weapons. Additionally, a monk can make an unarmed strike while wielding a two-handed weapon to parry. Monks cannot parry unarmed unless some form of feat or Ki power were invented to do so.

[Laurefindel]

Cathedralsquares wrote:

I'm thinking about adding in a new action for my game. You can avoid any enemy attack as an immediate action. To avoid with a block/parry make an attack roll. If yours equals or exceeds the attack against you you've successfully avoided it. For dodge roll a d20 and add in any AC modifiers barring shield, deflection, and armor.

What do you think?

Played with a similar mechanics for a few years.

It was part of this set of houserule

Long stroy short:

Block = CMB + shield bonus
Dodge = Reflex save + dodge modifiers
Parry = Attack roll

In all cases, total becomes defender's AC. If it beats attacker's roll, the attack is negated.

Two things I observed from the ability to block/dodge/parry:

1) Players usually opted for active attacks instead of active defences, unless the parry/dodge/block could be triggered without readying an action for it (which was the case in the later itteration of the game).

2) It tends to strech combats even longer, especially past level 10th. IMO it works good in games up to level 6-7, OK-ish in games 8-12 and ruins most games past level 12th.

'findel

[Mosaic]

Parry already exists as a Dualist ability:

PRD wrote:

Parry (Ex): At 2nd level, a duelist learns to parry the attacks of other creatures, causing them to miss. Whenever the duelist takes a full attack action with a light or one-handed piercing weapon, she can elect not to take one of her attacks. At any time before her next turn, she can attempt to parry an attack against her or an adjacent ally as an immediate action. To parry the attack, the duelist makes an attack roll, using the same bonuses as the attack she chose to forego during her previous action. If her attack roll is greater than the roll of the attacking creature, the attack automatically misses. For each size category that the attacking creature is larger than the duelist, the duelist takes a –4 penalty on her attack roll. The duelist also takes a –4 penalty when attempting to parry an attack made against an adjacent ally. The duelist must declare the use of this ability after the attack is announced, but before the roll is made.

It's along the lines of many of the suggestions. Might be easier to just generalize something that already exists in the rules. 'Course, you'd need to give dualists something nice and shiny to replace it; +4 to Parry rolls, like how Mobility gives you +4 to AoO AC?

[Helaman]

yukongil wrote:

I use the Trailblazer versions of Block and Dodge already. add half your base attack as either a Dodge bonus to AC, or as DR against an attack.

I recently started to use Parry rules as well to liven up a swashbuckling game. Basically just a counter roll using BAB + Dex + all other bonuses to hit, meet or beat attack roll to neagte.

works really well for me.

would also give the Duelist PrC a better edge as they'd presumably get one free parry instead of using an attack.

[Nebelwerfer41]

I have always assumed that your AC already takes all of that into account. When an enemy swings at you and misses your AC, then you either dodged out of his way, blocked with your shield or parried with your weapon.

Adding this mechanic would also widen is decrepancy between martial classes and casters, as it would give enemies another way to avoid damage from those that use weapons.

[Laurefindel]

Nebelwerfer41 wrote:

I have always assumed that your AC already takes all of that into account. When an enemy swings at you and misses your AC, then you either dodged out of his way, blocked with your shield or parried with your weapon.

It does to a certiain extent, but it fails at representing the fact that an experienced fighter will be better at defending himself then a neophyte warrior.

Much of the 'avoiding blows' mechanics of D&D/pathfinder is actually represented by hit points. A 20th level fighter isn't 20 times healtier, he's 20 times better at turning lethal blows into lesser ones.

But even this is a bit iffy since the only way of resplenishing your hp is via healing (natural or magical). It stretches believability to say that it takes several days for a fighter to regain the ability to fully dodge/block/parry (without magical intervention).

In that light, a dodge/block/parry mechanic akin to the duelist's ability reconsiles all of this IMO.