Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
At what level? Under what conditions?
In a DPR thread, a few days ago, I posted a level 10 build that was capable of nearly 150 damage in an average round, if he's liberal with his Grit.
Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
At what level? Under what conditions?
In a DPR thread, a few days ago, I posted a level 10 build that was capable of nearly 150 damage in an average round, if he's liberal with his Grit.
Hum let's see dead shot with a 6d6 cannon plus haste could giv you 30d6 damages. That's going to averag around 90 points. I can see another 10 points in various bonuses. Crit on that and you're up to 400 damage. Not sure how you get the other 200 damage, maybe use an oversized cannon plus enlarge person?
Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
This is already discussed about 11th level:
Free action reloading 2 barrel pistols (to save on money)You can double shoot each attack (-4 hit)
Pisterlo UCaD adds +3d6 damage to each attack (adding that feat that reduces Grit used to 0)
Deadly aim: adds +6 dam to each attack
Haste/boosts of speed adds 1 attack
Rapid Shot adds another shot.
Dex to damage (so +6 damage for 22 Dex) +1 from pisterlo.
Base damage 1d8.
Presumaly a +2 gun by then.
You get 3 BAB attacks + 1 rapid + 1 Haste =5 attacks. Double shot = 10 "attacks".
1d8 Dam (+15 + 3d6) x10 attacks.
Hit penalty -1 to each attack (after adding magic, Dex)
+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0.
And remember you hit touch AC.
Plus, you could take weapon focus.
Don't you need a free hand to reload the pistols?
Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
This is already discussed about 11th level:
Free action reloading 2 barrel pistols (to save on money)
You can double shoot each attack (-4 hit)
Pisterlo UCaD adds +3d6 damage to each attack (adding that feat that reduces Grit used to 0)
Deadly aim: adds +6 dam to each attack
Haste/boosts of speed adds 1 attack
Rapid Shot adds another shot.
Dex to damage (so +6 damage for 22 Dex) +1 from pisterlo.
Base damage 1d8.
Presumaly a +2 gun by then.You get 3 BAB attacks + 1 rapid + 1 Haste =5 attacks. Double shot = 10 "attacks".
1d8 Dam (+15 + 3d6) x10 attacks.
Hit penalty -1 to each attack (after adding magic, Dex)
+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0.
And remember you hit touch AC.
Plus, you could take weapon focus.
Doesn't the free action reload cause a higher chance of misfire? Something like 10% I think.
Don't you need a free hand to reload the pistols?
I was only using one, I totally forgot TWFing I can have two!
But due to Weapon Cord mechanics being a swift action, you only get 1 extra attacks (2 "attacks") then drop the weapon letting it dangle as you reload primary gun.So increases that to 12 Attacks.
Funny thing, people thought I was using TWFing already.
Assuming Quick Draw:
1st hand attack, drop, 2nd hand attack, drop, retrieve (swift) 1st hand reload then just use 1st hand from then on.
Is TWFing worth it though?
2 "attacks" more but -2 hit more as well.
I think you deal 30 damage on average x 10 = almost 300. With Twfing, that is 360 damage.
I'm not good at figuring DPR mechanics, but at first looks it should be close to 300.
pistolero doesn't misfire at a certain level.
the problem I see is that two-weapon fighting goes from highest to lowest attack. thus you have to use your weapon-strings several times, but they aren't free actions.
Doesn't the free action reload cause a higher chance of misfire? Something like 10% I think.Can someone please explain to me, in detail, how a gunslinger can possibly do 600+ damage in a single round? It seems too much to be believed.
Forewarning: I intend to poke holes in the build if there are any to be found.
This is already discussed about 11th level:
Free action reloading 2 barrel pistols (to save on money)
You can double shoot each attack (-4 hit)
Pisterlo UCaD adds +3d6 damage to each attack (adding that feat that reduces Grit used to 0)
Deadly aim: adds +6 dam to each attack
Haste/boosts of speed adds 1 attack
Rapid Shot adds another shot.
Dex to damage (so +6 damage for 22 Dex) +1 from pisterlo.
Base damage 1d8.
Presumaly a +2 gun by then.You get 3 BAB attacks + 1 rapid + 1 Haste =5 attacks. Double shot = 10 "attacks".
1d8 Dam (+15 + 3d6) x10 attacks.
Hit penalty -1 to each attack (after adding magic, Dex)
+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0/+0.
And remember you hit touch AC.
Plus, you could take weapon focus.
Knock it up to level 13 and the Pisterlo becomes immune to misfire. Otherwise there is the reliable weapon enchantment.
And he has a free hand because he's using one, double-barreled pistol.
I noticed that wasn't with any magic on the gun. So if you put a +1 holy and fire on it, that will be an extra 3d6+1 damage. if you roll the max, that will put it to 600.
1d8 Dam (+16 + 6d6) x10 attacks = 600
I noticed that wasn't with any magic on the gun. So if you put a +1 holy and fire on it, that will be an extra 3d6+1 damage. if you roll the max, that will put it to 600.
1d8 Dam (+16 + 6d6) x10 attacks = 600
Don't forget that's without a single crit. Although completely unrealistic it would theoretcially be possible to crit all 10 times for 2000 damage or so. More than likely though youll get 1 or 2 crits at best but those add an additional d8+64 per crit so if even 2 of them do thats 128+2d8 to add...
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In a DPR thread, a few days ago, I posted a level 10 build that was capable of nearly 150 damage in an average round, if he's liberal with his Grit.What's he like if he's out of Grit?
Dex to damage (so +6 damage for 22 Dex) +1 from pisterlo.
There is almost no reason whatsoever for a Gunslinger not to take two levels of barbarian(urban,UC) for Controlled Rage:DEX and Reckless Abandon resolving to +3/+2 att/dmg and +1 AC & +2 DEX skills. (And, since you're not boosting your CON in a controlled rage, you can shunt the feat a barbarian normally reserve for Raging Vitality into Extra Rage.)
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"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."
You can fire both barrels as part of an action, not for every individual attack.
That means if you move and take the attack action, you effectively get two shots when you would otherwise have had only one (sound like it could be fun with the Vital Strike line). If you take the full attack action, I imagine it works much like Manyshot.
I really don't think you double up on ALL of your attacks. That would be insanely unbalanced. Where are people getting that idea from?
Don't forget that's without a single crit. Although completely unrealistic it would theoretcially be possible to crit all 10 times for 2000 damage or so. More than likely though youll get 1 or 2 crits at best but those add an additional d8+64 per crit so if even 2 of them do thats 128+2d8 to add...I noticed that wasn't with any magic on the gun. So if you put a +1 holy and fire on it, that will be an extra 3d6+1 damage. if you roll the max, that will put it to 600.
1d8 Dam (+16 + 6d6) x10 attacks = 600
Um how does dead shot work with all this? Can you combine everything ion one (or two) attacks and crit on everything?
"This pistol has two parallel barrels; each barrel can be fired independently as a separate action, or both can be shot at once with the same action."
You can fire both barrels as part of an action, not for every individual attack.
That means if you move and take the attack action, you effectively get two shots when you would otherwise have had only one (sound like it could be fun with the Vital Strike line). If you take the full attack action, I imagine it works much like Manyshot.
I really don't think you double up on ALL of your attacks. That would be insanely unbalanced. Where are people getting that idea from?
I also think that firing both barrels of a double pistol functions (or at least should) like manyshot, that is one attack roll (at -4 per the description) and two times the damage, just like manyshot.
Now the way i read it, it can work like the other poeple are saying and allows you to fire both barrels at each attack. I don't like it and i think that it should change and/or be clarified but i can see how the other poeple are reading it.
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So, if I'm reading this right at best the gunslinger can nova for a round, expending roughly 1 gold in ammo, most if not all his Grit, and potentially do as much damage to a single target as a pair of fireballs from 10lv casters?
And after this he's reduced to being the guy with the hyper expensive pew pew gun. Pathetic.
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The double-barreled pistol is ridiculous, but I wouldn't want to use one WITH haste WITH alchemical rounds WITH rapidshot. A double-barreled pistol misfires on a 1-2, and alchemical rounds increase that by +1.
Now I know at level 13 a pistolero no longer misfires, and at that point, yes, go nuts; however, until that time you are spending probably all of your grit on two full attack actions, just to stop your guns from exploding. At level 13 balance has begun its leap out the twenty-story window anyway.
It's also not as reliable to get a full attack as an archer, as you need to be within 20 feet to target an enemy's touch AC, or else you have to spend 1 grit per shot.
Deadeye (Ex): At 1st level, the gunslinger can resolve an attack against touch AC instead of normal AC when firing
beyond her firearm’s first range increment.
If you want to fire your ten shots at a range of farther than 20 ft, that's 10 grit. You can Signature Deed it to get 40ft, but then your pistolero has lost the ability to add 3d6 to every shot.
A gunslinger can do a lot of damage with haste + rapidshot + crits + deadly aim + gun training, but what hasted full BAB ranged attacker can't do a lot of damage with haste + rapidshot + crits + deadly aim + weapon training? The gunslinger just gets a bit more power for far less flexibility.
This character would be a scary addition to my party. I play a Gnome bard that uses a rapier with improved critical. I also have the Desna feat that allows me to transfer my critical to an ally that also strikes the foe. So instead of a gunslinger criticaling on a 20, he can use my critical on a 15. That greatly improves the likelihood of pain.
Who would guess a Gnome who does d3-1 damage would strike so much fear!
The double-barreled pistol is ridiculous, but I wouldn't want to use one WITH haste WITH alchemical rounds WITH rapidshot. A double-barreled pistol misfires on a 1-2, and alchemical rounds increase that by +1.
Now I know at level 13 a pistolero no longer misfires, and at that point, yes, go nuts; however, until that time you are spending probably all of your grit on two full attack actions, just to stop your guns from exploding. At level 13 balance has begun its leap out the twenty-story window anyway.
Actually, Lightning reload lets you ignore alchemy cartiridges and reload aa a free action (no grit cost) at 11th level.
So only levels 1-10 must use cartiridges.|
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Actually, Lightning reload lets you ignore alchemy cartiridges and reload aa a free action (no grit cost) at 11th level.
So only levels 1-10 must use cartiridges.
Lightning Reload, even with Rapid Reload, only lets you reload one barrel of one gun per turn. You don't get to use it unlimited times just because it's a free action.
Lightning Reload, even with Rapid Reload, only lets you reload one barrel of one gun per turn. You don't get to use it unlimited times just because it's a free action.Actually, Lightning reload lets you ignore alchemy cartiridges and reload aa a free action (no grit cost) at 11th level.
So only levels 1-10 must use cartiridges.
Yes, free turns are infinite.
Nothing limits them (except the DM).It says one swift per turn, but no limit on free. So unless we get a FAQ, it is not limited.
If nt, then just use Alchemical ammo, but I don't think it should be limited if it is free.
Lightning Reload, even with Rapid Reload, only lets you reload one barrel of one gun per turn. You don't get to use it unlimited times just because it's a free action.Actually, Lightning reload lets you ignore alchemy cartiridges and reload aa a free action (no grit cost) at 11th level.
So only levels 1-10 must use cartiridges.Yes, free turns are infinite.
Nothing limits them (except the DM).It says one swift per turn, but no limit on free. So unless we get a FAQ, it is not limited.
If nt, then just use Alchemical ammo, but I don't think it should be limited if it is free.
I agree with you Starbuck and have tried to argue it before (I have a thread about it here) but most people don't agree. Some people see the free-action as a modification of the swift-action sentence that says "once per round"; but the free-action sentence can also be read as an independent sentence plus it does not say once per round.
Free actions have nothing to do with swift actions.
Free actions are unlimited in the round. You can make as many as the DM sees fit (no RAW stopping you, just what seems reasonable). An individual free action might be limited though.
That is usually meant for abilities that say things like "Once per round, as a free action, you can do <X>". It takes up a free action, but you can still only do it once a round.
This means you can talk (free action), drop a weapon (free action), drop prone (free action), use quickdraw to pull out your gun (free action), and then shoot (start a full attack action), then reload (free action), shoot again (continuing the full attack action).
The problem comes next with whether or not you can reload a second time (free action).
The wording you are concerned about where it says "each round" can be read to imply limitations on usage of that specific free action.
It's not really modifying the swift action, so much as labeling it as either a "free action with unlimited repeat use" or "free action with limitations".
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Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.
I don't see how there is any confusion in this. With or without Rapid Reload, and whether it's a free or swift action it is a single barrel each round.
It's still good, because you may want to spend your swift actions doing other things. There is no way it's meant to be used to create a machine gun, however.
Yeah, if it were to allow the reload as a free action over and over, it wouldn't even have the "each round" at the end of that sentence. It would just say "she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action", full stop.
Since the only builds/scenarios I've seen that allowed a gunslinger to do 600 damage in a round (max damage critting everything or not), required full attacks with two weapons.
They should be able to get pretty high, but it would take something like Revolvers to get that (in which case it's pretty limited with regardes to how long you can do this.. 6 shots per hand before needing to spend a while reloading).
Lightning Reload (Ex): At 11th level, as long as the
gunslinger has at least 1 grit point, she can reload a single
barrel of a one-handed or two-handed firearm as a swift
action once per round. If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead. Furthermore, using this deed does not provoke
attacks of opportunity.I don't see how there is any confusion in this. With or without Rapid Reload, and whether it's a free or swift action it is a single barrel each round.
It's still good, because you may want to spend your swift actions doing other things. There is no way it's meant to be used to create a machine gun, however.
There is confusion because when referring to a swift action, it clearly states "once per round". That is perfectly clear, but then when it talks about free actions that wording magically goes away.
It says "she can reload a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round". Each round can be read as "every round. I know that it is a bit of a stretch, but it is really odd that they did not use consistent language throughout the ability. Maybe that is for a reason?
And it's not like there are never errors, that's why they have errata. The wording could be off, so then it falls to a RAW to RAI area. It's not about becoming a "machine gun", it's about letting a level 11 specialist use her chosen weapon (full BAB remember) every round without having to spend 12 (6) gold a shot for paper cartridges.
I bumped my original thread again because this is at least the 3rd or 4th time I've seen this question arise in different threads, so even though it seems clear for some, it is not clear for others.
Ah, so the free action is, in fact, not actually free, since you should only get so many of them in a round. Kind of a misnomer, really. Perhaps it should be named the "usally not very expensive" action or the "your DM may not allow this" action?
There seem to be two readings of lightning reload and no real guidance on which is right. Please correct me if this has been hashed out in another thread, but the debate still seems to be going here, and nobody is really speaking up for interpretation number 2.
It all revolves around this sentence:
If she has the Rapid Reload feat or
is using an alchemical cartridge (or both), she can reload
a single barrel of the weapon as a free action each round
instead.
(1) The gunslinger can, once per round, reload a single barrel as a free action, or
(2) Each round, the gunslinger designates a single barrel. She may reload that barrel as a free action as many times as she likes because she is not limited to doing this once each round, only to selecting a barrel each round to be the target of the effect--a la 3.5e dodge.
It says she can reload a single barrel as a free action each round. So, at the start of the round she fires both barrels of her double pistol. Then, she reloads one barrel as a free action and fires again. Since she can reload that barrel as a free action (but only that barrel), she reloads again as a free action, and fires again. If she has more iteratives left, she continues.
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correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't have the book with me
But normally reloading is a move action, right??
with rapid reload or alchemical cartridges this becomes a swift action.
this lightning reload allows you to do it (once per turn) as a free action.
You are being corrected.. ;)
Normally loading a 1 handed firearm is a standard action, rapid reload or alchemical cartridges reduces that to a move action, rapid reload + alchemical cartridges moves it to a free action.
Lightning reload is a bit different, It reduces it to a swift with out any of the above, and a free with any of the above.
correct me if I'm wrong, since I don't have the book with me
But normally reloading is a move action, right??
with rapid reload or alchemical cartridges this becomes a swift action.
this lightning reload allows you to do it (once per turn) as a free action.You are being corrected.. ;)
Normally loading a 1 handed firearm is a standard action, rapid reload or alchemical cartridges reduces that to a move action, rapid reload + alchemical cartridges moves it to a free action.
Lightning reload is a bit different, It reduces it to a swift with out any of the above, and a free with any of the above.
In addition, reloading an early two handed firearm takes a full round action, rapid reload or alchemical cartridges make it a standard action while both of them makes it a move action.
If you're going to revive a five-year-old thread, at least show your working. Number of attacks? Average damage per hit?