Has anyone thought about going Magus / EK?
Has anyone thought about going Magus / EK?
Hardly worth it. The EK levels would just increase your BAB by 2 and give you like 1 additional feats.
And you lose one caster level, multiple arcanas and other various class abilities. Among them the ability to cast in heavy armor. You can't even use Mithral heavy armor without using a feat because the magus is not proficient with heavy armor before level 13.The only advantages would be the ability to tak a few more fighter-only feats and spell critical which can be useful (2 spells with Spell combat? Yes please!) but uses your swift action which most Magi will probably use for a bunch of other things most of the time.
The majority of complaint revolves around the Swift action.Arcane Strike Feat = Swift Action
Arcane Armor Training Feat = Swift Action
Quickened Spell = Swift Action
Spell Critical EK Class Feature = Swift Action
One way to get around this regarding Spell Critical is to be a 3+Level Arcane Sorcerer with Metamagic Adept, as you can apply Still Spell for free without increasing the casting time (it still takes a higher level slot, but Sorcerers have lots of those). (And yes, I know wizard is the way the cool kids do it, but having seen a high level sorcerer based EK in action, it is VERY effective--you have to pick your spells carefully but it can work very nicely.) So you don't have to worry about Arcane Armor Training kicking in
Another way is the Universalist's wizard's metamagic mastery, but that doesn't hit until 8th level, which is WAY late in an EK build.
The other thing is--you can just risk the spell failure. With good armor (which you'll have by the time you get spell critical or quickened spell) your chance of spell failure will be very low anyway. (Really, the biggest problem with ASF isn't the chance of failure, it's that you have to remember to keep rolling it.)
Regarding EK builds in general
- Along with the feat selections, it's really ideal to build one as a crit build (because of the spell critical capstone)--so you're going to spend a few feats on making your crit chances as high as possible (Improved Crit, Crit Focus, and anything that boosts your to-hit with your large crit range weapon of choice). So if you're trying to optimize these chances, yes, you can feel like your choices for feats are limited (although how much you want to optimize is up to you)
- The EK doesn't really come into its own until higher levels, when all the class abilities really start to synergize better. So if you're starting at 1st or 2nd level, depending on the nature of the campaign, you MAY feel at a loss (or you may not, who knows).
- I don't--again having seen a high level EK in action--don't see the caster level issue as bad as some do--I really think maxing caster level is overrated TO A DEGREE, and besides if traits are allowed, Magical Knack will more or less make up the disparity anyway.
Personally, even with its drawbacks, I like the EK a lot, have a lot of respect for it having seen them being played, and would play one over a magus ANY day--yes, even from level 1.
@DeathQuaker
Remember that magical knack doesn't help you with spell level, only with caster level. Most people say what they say about caster level because most of the times high caster levels means higher spell level.
@DeathQuaker
Remember that magical knack doesn't help you with spell level, only with caster level. Most people say what they say about caster level because most of the times high caster levels means higher spell level.
I am aware of that. But I think--IMHO of course--the martial abilities of an EK are a fair tradeoff for the highest spell level or two. Especially since there is a lot the EK can dare to do at close range that a pure arcanist wouldn't. It's about learning to be creative with what you've got--I mean, okay, you don't have 9th level spells yet. But there's little to sneeze at in an arcanist's 6th or 7th or 8th level spell list either.
I am aware of that. But I think--IMHO of course--the martial abilities of an EK are a fair tradeoff for the highest spell level or two. Especially since there is a lot the EK can dare to do at close range that a pure arcanist wouldn't. It's about learning to be creative with what you've got--I mean, okay, you don't have 9th level spells yet. But there's little to sneeze at in an arcanist's 6th or 7th or 8th level spell list either.@DeathQuaker
Remember that magical knack doesn't help you with spell level, only with caster level. Most people say what they say about caster level because most of the times high caster levels means higher spell level.
I agree. I am currently playing a fighter/wizard/abjurant champion (3rd party material) in a campaign and plan on taking EK at the next level. I made a choice before which means that I will not have 9th level spells. Currently I am always 1.5 wizard spell levels behind a pure wizard.
But it does not really matter. Even without the abjurant champion's (neat) special powers, the combination of spellcasting progression and full BAB works out pretty well. I cannot do the stuff a magus can do, but then again I have the full wizard's spell list available.Looking at the EK's design I see benefits and trade-offs:
Benefits:
- Count as fighter with your EK levels. This opens up tons of fighter-only feats to you
- 9/10 spell progression: very good considering you're getting full BAB. A comparable class, the arcane archer, only get's 7/10 spell progression.
- fighter bonus feats: these never hurt
- capstone: the swift action is a problem. So either simply don't use arcane strike in melee, only in ranged combat (don't think the capstone would work there, or would it?). Or simply ignore the capstone. It might even be possible - would have to check the rules on that - that you do not have to use your swift action before you hit. So in a situation where you only have one attack anyway, e.g. after a move, you can just roll and decide on arcane strike if you did not roll a threat.
Trade-offs:
- abovementioned capstone does not work well with arcane armor training/mastery and arcane strike and quickened spells. Possible ways to compensate (partially) for the issue of swift action starvation: rods of quicken spell, armor without ASF or bracers of armor, casting class capable of casting in armor (bard/sorcerer), still spell together with that certain -1 metamagic trait for your favorite spell... There are many ways to improve the situation. I feel this is OK.
- caster level drop: get the magical knack trait or accept it. It's not really that bad in my experience. I only keep forgetting the difference, that's the different part for me ;-)
All in all I feel the class is quite OK and interesting to play. It has a different flavor from the magus or the level 6 casting classes, and I do not feel the negative sentiments I've seen many times on this board towards it. :-)
I removed some posts. The world is a better place if you don't try to call people out.
I played a Ranger4/Sorc6/EK10 and it was allright. I was a better tank than the fighter (for up to 3, maybe 4 battles), and had plenty of utility and flexibility, both in and out of combat. My favorite gimmick was Combat Reflexes and reach, so I could position myself and just AoO the heck out of everyone. That and group buffs & battlefield control.
My hope was to milk all I could out of Share Spells (animal companion + familiar), but it wasn't as viable as I hoped.
Technically, I should have gone Paladin/Sorcerer/EK, so I can be a Charisma-monkey, but meh.
. . .It might even be possible - would have to check the rules on that - that you do not have to use your swift action before you hit. So in a situation where you only have one attack anyway, e.g. after a move, you can just roll and decide on arcane strike if you did not roll a threat. . . .
I like this idea. I don't see a problem with it as long as you activate Arcane Strike before you roll damage. Otherwise, a GM might rule that damage reduction applies to the hit (hopefully a rare scenario for a high level character).
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Has anyone thought of doing Bard [Arcane Duelist] 8/Fighter 2/EK 10?Yes. Dragonchess player was a huge proponent of it. The biggest problem with it was that it didn't really do anything more effectively than a straight bard could, while also wrecking your spellcasting.
Well in the long run you still get 6th level spells, 3 more BAB and 5 fighter feats. This isn't the best trade for all those bard class abilities, though, I admit. Ah well.
This may vary, but IMHO only,
I'd say the best EK's are either
Wpn Master3/Witch7/EK10
For Wpn Train1(with Duelist Gloves)/Hexes(particulary Slumber which would still have a decent DC and Accursed Hex feat to make em save twice)
or
Wpn Master3/Wiz(Foresight)8/EK9 (for the Free D20 roll to add to attacks, Bonus to going first and the luck Aura that stacks with heroism)
Wpn Master3/Witch7/EK10
For Wpn Train1(with Duelist Gloves)/Hexes(particulary Slumber which would still have a decent DC and Accursed Hex feat to make em save twice
The DC will be pretty bad. Only 13 + Int. And that's the low-ish Int of a MAD EK witch. Accursed hex doesn't really help, either. Unless you want to waste another round with a low DC hex. Most of the time you are far better of casting a spell or simply attacking.
I really don't like the idea of a witch based EK. The wizard's spell list is vastly superior for an EK.
I had a bizarre EK idea, and I think you guys just might approve. I'd like some feedback, though.
9/Wizard/1Fighter/10 EK
The school of magic is transmutation for that awesome buff to a physical stat. By level 9 this buff can be +2, adding a modifier to strength.
The one spell that is the mainstay of my idea is Undead Anatomy IV which can make you a large undead creature with some kind of bite attack and another +6 to strength (not to mention 6 natural armor).
Talk to your DM and ask him about using an option from 3.5 called "Twilight" on your armor. If memory serves me correctly it reduced arcane spell failure by 20%?, combined with Mithril; then your full plate armor only has a 5% spell failure.
BUMP!!!!
There are only a few special qualities to be added to weapons that are worthwhile. Speed can be a good one for those trying to push attacks like crazy (you can reach up to 9 attacks per round this way dual wielding or using a double weapon) but is most impressive on an amulet of mighty fists (oh look, you just doubled the number of natural attacks).
How do you double the number of natural attacks with speed on an amulet of mighty fists? I am assuming this won't work with unarmed strikes.
Edit** Only way i can see this is because each natural weapon would be considered independent of one another therefor granting an extra attack with each one...Does that work by RAW?
This build offers few to no benefits over wizard 20.I had a bizarre EK idea, and I think you guys just might approve. I'd like some feedback, though.
9/Wizard/1Fighter/10 EK
The school of magic is transmutation for that awesome buff to a physical stat. By level 9 this buff can be +2, adding a modifier to strength.
The one spell that is the mainstay of my idea is Undead Anatomy IV which can make you a large undead creature with some kind of bite attack and another +6 to strength (not to mention 6 natural armor).
I was thinking the BaB advantage would be huge.
I was thinking the BaB advantage would be huge.
15, right? One shy of a 4th attack.
Thats missing an opportunity IMO.
Admittedly I have not read through the entire thread. However, I can tell you a member of my gaming crew just recently played an EK in RotRL campaign I ran. The issues I saw.
He was an Elven Wizard4/Fighter2/EK10, dex based with Elven Curve Blade.
Hp - With the EK being MAD I felt his con was too low for frontline. A lucky round from a melee oriented boss could drop him.
Damage - Too low compared to other frontlines. The barbarian in the party hit normally = to or greater than the EK. The DW ranger in the party could easily outdamage the EK as well though through multiple hits.
Ineffective economy of action - spell or swing. Perhaps this one was more a player issue and not the class, but thats for a another debate.
That said I dont think the EK is a terrible Prc, however I would certainly look to play it in a different manner than I have witnessed thus far.
I only have conjecture when comparing to Magus as I havent seen one played. We start a new campaign in 2 weeks though and one of my other friends will be playing one. We shall see!
Alot depends on the buffs he used. An Eldritch Knight is made or broken by the spells he chooses/uses. Although, the same could be said of any spellcasting class.
He was an Elven Wizard4/Fighter2/EK10, dex based with Elven Curve Blade.
I'd say that's the problem right there. You'll need every single damage boost you can get to be a half decent physical damge dealer. If you go EK, go Strength-Based, even more so with a two-handed weapon. Don't worry about low-ish dex. Bosting your survivability with spells is WAY easier than increasing your physical damage output.
Derwish Dance might be an alternative, but the increase in AC can just as easily be gained by a mithral buckler. And you save 2 feats (weapon finess + DD).
He was an Elven Wizard4/Fighter2/EK10, dex based with Elven Curve Blade.I'd say that's the problem right there. You'll need every single damage boost you can get to be a half decent physical damge dealer. If you go EK, go Strength-Based, even more so with a two-handed weapon. Don't worry about low-ish dex. Bosting your survivability with spells is WAY easier than increasing your physical damage output.
Derwish Dance might be an alternative, but the increase in AC can just as easily be gained by a mithral buckler. And you save 2 feats (weapon finess + DD).
That.
You are in melee, that means you must have STR.Sure dervish dance is an option but you need two more feats to do that.
I had a bizarre EK idea, and I think you guys just might approve. I'd like some feedback, though.
9/Wizard/1Fighter/10 EK
The school of magic is transmutation for that awesome buff to a physical stat. By level 9 this buff can be +2, adding a modifier to strength.
The one spell that is the mainstay of my idea is Undead Anatomy IV which can make you a large undead creature with some kind of bite attack and another +6 to strength (not to mention 6 natural armor).
The buff does not stack with most items you will likely have, so it's really not worth it in the long run. I walked into that trap :-/
There are only a few special qualities to be added to weapons that are worthwhile. Speed can be a good one for those trying to push attacks like crazy (you can reach up to 9 attacks per round this way dual wielding or using a double weapon) but is most impressive on an amulet of mighty fists (oh look, you just doubled the number of natural attacks).
How do you double the number of natural attacks with speed on an amulet of mighty fists? I am assuming this won't work with unarmed strikes.
Edit** Only way i can see this is because each natural weapon would be considered independent of one another therefor granting an extra attack with each one...Does that work by RAW?
Yes. The speed enhancement allows you to make an extra attack with the weapon. It just so happens to place this enhancement on every one of your natural attacks. Now, this means you can't use haste or similar effects (such as that one cleric spell) to get additional attacks with your speed weapons, but you're definitely in the green in terms of +attacks.
Really it's not a problem unless it's on an eidolon. They can get a bajillion (figuratively speaking) attacks like that. *chuckles*
Sorry to say Ashiel, your pet interpretation on Speed weapon quality and Amulet of Mighty Fist just got owned on the Core Rules FAQ. See ´Spells and Magic / Amulet of Mighty Fist´.
There´s no FAQ yet on how trying to use multiple Speed weapons (e.g. 2WF) works/doesn´t work.
Where is this Agile enhancement?
Fortification is a nice one at high levels, especially considering the number of Crit-triggered effects.
Armor is also the cheapest enhancement.Brilliant Energy is also nice, given the amount of AC it can bypass... Especially so for Archers who will more often Full Attack, i.e. all their low iteratives where it helps the most, not to mention they can split the enhancements across the bow and arrows (at cost of redundant +1). That goes for many enhancements in general (not to mention being able to swap out enhancements via different arrows while still benefitting from your ´base´ enhancements from the bow itself)
I haven´t seen anybody play Speed enhancement as if it was anything but a Haste effect applying to an extra attack with a weapon you have Speed applied to (i.e. just 1 extra attack max)... I.e. ´This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.´ implies it doesn´t ´stack´ with itself via multiple weapons with the Speed enhancement. Your games may vary.
If you don't accept the wording as it is written then speed weapons are worthless, because it is trivially easy to be hasted every encounter at higher levels. Not just an extra attack but full on haste with the +1 to hit, AC, and Reflex, and +30 ft. speed.
The wording is quite clear. You get an extra attack with this weapon. It does not stack with haste and similar effects (such as that cleric spell that allows you to take an extra attack per round).
Thus if you're wielding a speed weapon, you cannot use it to make your extra attack via haste. Thus you cannot be wielding a two handed weapon of speed while hasted and get 2 extra attacks with that weapon. You could, however, wield a speed weapon in one hand an another weapon in your off hand and use your off hand weapon for the extra haste attack and your main hand gets it speed. Alternatively you could dual wield speed weapons to get an extra attack with each while not hasted.
Anything else seems to be stretching the wording...
Hm, curious interpretation of the speed property. I am very interested in any official statement or ruling on that :-)
My interpretation is a different one than yours though: I say you only get one single extra attack in total, regardless of the number of speed weapons you have - like haste. The PRD states:
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
In D&D and Pathfinder, similar effects do not stack. It's in the magic chapter somewhere I believe.
However, even without that, I think the highlighted wording above is meant to prevent what you are suggesting. A "similar effect" would be that of another speed weapon.That is my reading of it. But if someone could point me to an official FAQ or dev statement, that would be great :-)
Also, I do not think it is "trivially easy" to haste in higher levels. There are plenty of ways to prevent that (like silence zones), counter it (slow spell / dispel) etc. Plus it requires someone to actually cast it, eating up an action which is increasingly important at higher levels.
A speed weapon on the other hand is ready to benefit from the start. So there is a real advantage to it, definitely not "worthless" IMO :-P
They can change the wording if they like, but that's how it worked in 3E/3.5, and that's how it is written in the book. The text is very clear.
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
You get an extra attack with the speed weapon. Period.
It does not stack with similar effects such as haste (see below).Haste provides an additional attack, made with any weapon. Thus wielding a speed weapon while hasted prevents you from making an extra attack with that weapon. Thus a Fighter with a greatsword of speed while hasted does not get 2 extra attacks because he is hasted (which would give him 3 at his highest bonus).
Having another speed weapon would not stack (notice it does not give this weapon another attack) but would grant the extra attack with that weapon for the speed quality normally. Thus a ranger dual wielding a pair of +1 speed shortswords would get an extra attack with both, but cannot make an extra attack with either weapon twice because of similar effects (such as haste, or that cleric spell that gives an extra attack).
Likewise, a ranger could have a +1 shortsword of speed and a +1 shocking short sword, and if hasted could attack twice with the shortsword of speed and twice with the +1 shocking short sword, because he is not attempting to stack the haste and speed property of his weapon.
That's a breakdown based on the next as it is written.
EDIT: Also yes, there are many ways to be hasted at high levels. Boots of speed are a free action and allow you to be hasted when you need to be hasted. A lesser rod of quickening means that an adequately leveled wizard can drop haste every fight on your entire party without interrupting his casting routine, and without a rod he could still do it, but it would cost him a 7th level spell.
That's without bothering to venture into item creation, wands, scrolls, use magic device, staffs, or anything else. Just the basics. In fact, it's pretty safe to assume that any competent party will probably have some plans for using haste regularly, because it's just that good.
He was an Elven Wizard4/Fighter2/EK10, dex based with Elven Curve Blade.
Don't you need at least a 5th level of Wizard to qualify for EK?
The majority of complaint revolves around the Swift action.Arcane Strike Feat = Swift Action
Arcane Armor Training Feat = Swift Action
Quickened Spell = Swift Action
Spell Critical EK Class Feature = Swift ActionOne way to get around this regarding Spell Critical is to be a 3+Level Arcane Sorcerer with Metamagic Adept, as you can apply Still Spell for free without increasing the casting time (it still takes a higher level slot, but Sorcerers have lots of those). (And yes, I know wizard is the way the cool kids do it, but having seen a high level sorcerer based EK in action, it is VERY effective--you have to pick your spells carefully but it can work very nicely.) So you don't have to worry about Arcane Armor Training kicking in
Another way is the Universalist's wizard's metamagic mastery, but that doesn't hit until 8th level, which is WAY late in an EK build.
I'm so glad you mentioned metamagic mastery. I hadn't made the connection between it and spell critical. It's an elegant solution to the swift action problem.
Where is this Agile enhancement?Pathefinders Field Guide..the new book that came out for PFS essentially
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.