Mithral-Studded Leather Armor
Cost: 1025 gp; Armor Bonus: +3; Max DEX Bonus: +6; Armor Check Penalty: 0; Spell Failure: 10%; Speed: 30/20; Weight 15 lbs.
I understand that what I'm proposing doesn't really fit with the rules for mithral. Be that as it may, I don't think this type of armor constitutes bad/broken. The mithral chain shirt is still better (weighs less and protects better for a mere 75gp extra.)
My question is, as a GM or player, would you use or allow this armor? For me, I just want an alternate solution to the MCS. I have no problem with that armor type, I just want something different (that still provides a good armor bonus with a high DEX bonus.)
Thoughts?
Alas, studded leather is not primarily made of metal, so making it mithril has no appreciable effect. As a DM and player, an item like this really messed with my sense of immersion, so I would avoid it.
Balancewise, I have no problem with the item, but I would find something else to call it like celestial leather or something.
studded leather is not primarily made of metal, so making it mithril has no appreciable effect.
I get that, which is why I'm talking about it here, in the House Rules forum.
Studded Leather is not primarily made of metal, rather it is a composite-type armor in which metal plates are sandwiched between a cloth backing layer and leather outer layer. I would say that this armor type is probably about 40% metal.
I don't think this would be an awful abuse of the rules to allow, but I would like to get other folks opinions.
Looks reasonable to me. Question: would you let druids use it?
Y'know, I don't think so. It is still made from some metal components, so I'd say they're out of luck.
Studded Leather is not primarily made of metal, rather it is a composite-type armor in which metal plates are sandwiched between a cloth backing layer and leather outer layer. I would say that this armor type is probably about 40% metal.
To be fair with Charender, that doesn't match the description of the SRD.
Leather: Leather armor is made up of pieces of hard boiled leather carefully sewn together.Studded Leather: Similar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs.
What you are referring to is a brigandine.
'findel
studded leather is not primarily made of metal, so making it mithril has no appreciable effect.I get that, which is why I'm talking about it here, in the House Rules forum.
Studded Leather is not primarily made of metal, rather it is composite-type armor in which metal plates are sandwiched between a cloth backing layer and leather outer layer. I would say that this armor type is probably about 40% metal.
I don't think this would be an awful abuse of the rules to allow, but I would like to get other folks opinions.
The reason for the rule is about immersion more than balance. House rule or not, you are risking breaking immersion with a item like this. It makes no sense logically that mithril studded leather would be significantly lighter or less encumbering than regular studeed leather. At best, mithril studded leather would get a +1 max dex, and a -1 armor check, and that is only if you assume that studded leather is about 50% metal.
Is it balanced, yes, but I would definately call it something else besides mithril.
Studded Leather is not primarily made of metal, rather it is a composite-type armor in which metal plates are sandwiched between a cloth backing layer and leather outer layer. I would say that this armor type is probably about 40% metal.To be fair, that doesn't match the description of the SRD.
Leather: Leather armor is made up of pieces of hard boiled leather carefully sewn together.Studded Leather: Similar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs.
What you are referring to is a brigandine.
'findel
This is true, and historically there is no such thing as "Studded" leather armor. In fact worn-out brigandine-type armor, which would have appeared to be studded with metal, is probably to blame for the misconception. I suppose I could rename the armor as "Mithral Brigandine."
Jiggy - I hadn't even considered harness, but I would start with making it half (or even a quarter) as hard as standard mithral.
Charender - hmm, what would you call it?
Mithral-Studded Leather Armor
Cost: 1025 gp; Armor Bonus: +3; Max DEX Bonus: +6; Armor Check Penalty: 0; Spell Failure: 10%; Speed: 30/20; Weight 15 lbs.I understand that what I'm proposing doesn't really fit with the rules for mithral. Be that as it may, I don't think this type of armor constitutes bad/broken. The mithral chain shirt is still better (weighs less and protects better for a mere 75gp extra.)
My question is, as a GM or player, would you use or allow this armor? For me, I just want an alternate solution to the MCS. I have no problem with that armor type, I just want something different (that still provides a good armor bonus with a high DEX bonus.)
Thoughts?
Why stop with a semi-mithral statline? I can understand not halving the weight (as there there still is a lot of leather there) but you should give it the +7 Dex max and the 5% ASF that the mithral template gives to armor.
There is nothing mechanically wrong with Mithral Studded Leather, the only hang-up is what constitutes "Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral."
I think that mithral chain shirts are massively overused, and welcome anything that helps provide an alternative.
I think that mithral chain s%@*s are...
...missed a 'r' in there ;)
This is true, and historically there is no such thing as "Studded" leather armor. In fact worn-out brigandine-type armor, which would have appeared to be studded with metal, is probably to blame for the misconception. I suppose I could rename the armor as "Mithral Brigandine."
Too true.
Quite a few D&D armors were mis-conceptualized from statues, etchings, illuminations and painting of the 15th-16th century, some of which where themselves misinterpreted back then from Greek and Roman art...
'findel
Why stop with a semi-mithral statline? I can understand not halving the weight (as there there still is a lot of leather there) but you should give it the +7 Dex max and the 5% ASF that the mithral template gives to armor.
I didn't want to take away too much from the MCS and I did want to keep with the "half" mithral convention. But yeah, offering a +7 DEX would make this armor-type very attractive indeed.
There is nothing mechanically wrong with Mithral Studded Leather, the only hang-up is what constitutes "Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral."
I think that as House Rules go, this is probably really fair.
I think that mithral chain s@*&s are massively overused, and welcome anything that helps provide an alternative.
+1
MCSs are just the most optimal armor choice out there, hands down. What I'm trying to come up with is something to rival 'em.
Quite a few D&D armors were mis-conceptualized from statues, etchings, illuminations and painting of the 15th-16th century, some of which where themselves misinterpreted back then from Greek and Roman art...
back on the subject, I think the item is balanced but I too am uncomfortable with the implication and precedent of having a half-mithral advantages.
That would open a niche for mithral arrows, mithral spear-heads, crossbows with mithral prongs... Its not even a bad idea overall, as long as you are willing to deal with the whole lot.
'findel
Ring Mail!
I think I should call this new armor-type "Mithral Brigandine". I like that and it serves to differentiate from Studded Leather (which does sound like the metal content would be negligible.)
Mithral Brigandine Armor
Cost: 1075 gp; Armor Bonus: +4; Max DEX Bonus: +6; Armor Check Penalty: 0; Spell Failure: 15%; Speed: 30/20; Weight 17.5 lbs.
I think that mithral chain s%@*s are......missed a 'r' in there ;)
woops, edited...
I think I should call this new armor-type "Mithral Brigandine". I like that and it serves to differentiate from Studded Leather (which does sound like the metal content would be negligible.)Mithral Brigandine Armor
Cost: 1075 gp; Armor Bonus: +4; Max DEX Bonus: +6; Armor Check Penalty: 0; Spell Failure: 15%; Speed: 30/20; Weight 17.5 lbs.
... comes in a selection finely cured leathers and exquisitely died velvets, lined with mithral and golden threads! Light armors have never been so fashionable!
... comes in a selection finely cured leathers and exquisitely died velvets, lined with mithral and golden threads! Light armors have never been so fashionable!
Nice.
I was perusing the wiki link and I think I'm going to focus on the "Jack" shirt. That seems to be in line with the chain shirt, albeit with additional materials.
European jack of plates
Jack of plates, English, c1580-90...Like the brigandine, the jack was made of small iron plates between layers of felt and canvas. The main difference is in the method of construction: a brigandine is riveted whereas a jack is sewn. Jacks were often made from recycled pieces of older plate armor, including damaged brigandines and cuirasses cut into small squares.
Jack remained in use as late as the 16th century and was often worn by Scottish Border Reivers. Although they were obsolete by the time of the English Civil War many were taken to the New World by the Pilgrim Fathers as they provided excellent protection from Indian arrows; one dating back to 1607 was recently found at Jamestown.
Gonna draw up some stats.
Charender - hmm, what would you call it?
My first idea would be celestial leather. Made from the hides of celestial animals or something. I only use that because dragon hide is already taken, and the core rules have celestial chainmail that is inexplicably better than mithril chainmail.
So here are two "light", shirt-type (historically called Jacks)armors for comparison. The HS is from the CoCT AP and the CS is from the CRB.
Hide Shirt: 90gp, +4/+4, -3 ACP, SF 20%, SPD 30/20, 25 lbs
Chain Shirt: 100gp, +4/+4, -2 ACP, SF 20%, SPD 30/20, 25 lbs
Here is what I've come up with...
Brigandine Jack: 50gp, +3/+4, -2 ACP, SF 20%, SPD 30/20, 20 lbs
It costs less than both of the other two and weighs less too. It doesn't protect as well as CS, but isn't as bulky as the HS. The BS has the one benefit of being able to utilize the full attributes of mitral construction.
Thoughts?
Charender - thanks, that is something I need to explore.
I think calling something "Mithril Studded Leather" is like saying you drive a "Plastic Car" because the stereo buttons are plastic. Studded leather is simply that. Studded. Not Plated leather, or any other way to describe it.
The amount of metal is negligible at best.
Leather Armor = 20 lbs
Studded Leather = 25 lbs
Official description:
Studded Leather: Similar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs.
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Mithral-Studded Leather Armor
Cost: 1025 gp; Armor Bonus: +3; Max DEX Bonus: +6; Armor Check Penalty: 0; Spell Failure: 10%; Speed: 30/20; Weight 15 lbs.
[SNIP]
Thoughts?
My 'realist' thought would be that replacing the metal studs with mithral studs should both cost less than an entire suit of light metal armor made of mithril, and should only halve the weight of the metal components (the 5 lbs. difference between leather and studded leather being reduced to 2.5 lbs). Having the 'mithril studs' allow for the studded leather to have the MDB, ACP *and* Spell Failure percentage of unmodified leather seems a bit much. Even at half weight for mithril, the armor should still be *a bit* bulkier than leather.
.
My 'gamist' thought is that if someone wants to pay 1000 gp. to get what is, mechanically, a suit of leather armor that's 1 AC better than a normal suit of leather armor, it doesn't sound like the sort of house ruled homebrew thing that is going to wreck game balance.
Mithril Brigandine
Cost 1,025 gp AC +3 Max Dex +7 ASF 5% Weight 10 lbs.
Brigandine
Cost 25 GP AC +3 Max Dex +5 ASF 15% Weight 20 lbs
with brigandine, it's the metal component providing most of the protection. the leather is just a base to sew it onto.
I think calling something "Mithril Studded Leather" is like saying you drive a "Plastic Car" because the stereo buttons are plastic. Studded leather is simply that. Studded. Not Plated leather, or any other way to describe it.
The amount of metal is negligible at best.
Leather Armor = 20 lbs
Studded Leather = 25 lbsOfficial description:
Studded Leather: Similar to leather armor, this suit is reinforced with small metal studs.
You don't bother to read the rest of the thread, do you?
Try looking 8 and 12 posts up, for discussion of this exact criticism.
I had the same problem with the Mithral chain shirt and wanted an alternative. So I decided to create a leather special material that would do for leather what Mithral does for metal. I called it Dire Leather, but you can reflavor it to whatever.
Dire Leather
Armorsmiths can work with the hides of dire animals to produce leather armors of remarkable quality. Dire leather is stronger than normal leather and by using choice selections the armor can be made lighter, but just as effective.
One dire animal produces enough hide for a single suit of leather armor or studded leather armor (with mithral studs) for a creature one size category smaller than the dire animal. An armorsmith can produce one suit of hide armor for a creature two sizes smaller.
Spell failure chances for armors made from dire leather are decreased by 5%, maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2, and armor check penalties are decreased by 2 (to a minimum of 0).
An item made from dire leather weighs half as much as the same item made from normal leather. Armors fashioned from dire leather are always masterwork items as well; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below.
Leather +750 gp. Studded Leather +1,000 gp. Hide +1,500 gp.
I've allowed it on the grounds that druids can't use studded leather armor -- as such it's by definition a metal based armor in my understanding.
If your understanding is that druids can use studded leather then I would suggest not allowing it in your campaigns.
About the only use i could see for this would be if you wanted to be picked up and used as a spike mace by a larger party member in order to fight the werewolf.
About the only use i could see for this would be if you wanted to be picked up and used as a spike mace by a larger party member in order to fight the werewolf.No- and that is a jerk thing to say.
Huh?
Look, studded leather armor already exists. It doesn't make you harder to grapple, it just gives you a slightly better armor class than regular old leather.
The usual use for mithril armor is to make armor lighter because it weighs only half as much as steel. If an item is composed PRIMARILY of metal, making a mithril version halves the weight, lowers the armor check penalties, arcane spell failure chance and all that good stuff.
Studded leather armor is mostly leather. Reducing the weight of the studds has very little to no effect on the armor.
As I said before, the use for it would be to make it harder for enemies to grapple you. (Like hugging a cactus)
Mithril isn't any sharper than steel, or harder, just lighter. Since steel leather armor doesn't do this, mitrhil won't either.
What you want for that is the barbed vest