I too believe that as far as Pathfinder RPG is concerned, 7th level is the new 6.
It does ideed bring level 4th spell into play, at which point it is fair to ask yourself whether you want your campaign to play mainly between level 1st and 7th, or if you want your players to reach 7th level rather quickly and linger there for a long time.
If you are playing with the first option, I don't see much need to fuss: make it E7 and enjoy your game.
If your goal is to play a significant part of the game past level 6th, then a set of simple and clearly written houserules for 'what happens past level 6th' might be OK.
'findel
I too believe that as far as Pathfinder RPG is concerned, 7th level is the new 6.
It does ideed bring level 4th spell into play, at which point it is fair to ask yourself whether you want your campaign to play mainly between level 1st and 7th, or if you want your players to reach 7th level rather quickly and linger there for a long time.
If you are playing with the first option, I don't see much need to fuss: make it E7 and enjoy your game.
If your goal is to play a significant part of the game past level 6th, then a set of simple and clearly written houserules for 'what happens past level 6th' might be OK.
'findel
It's hard to find a good number, as ending on an odd number grants 4th level spells to prepared casters and leaves spontaneous ones wanting. You could stop at 7th level and just say no 4th level spells or spell slots are gained.
My problem with ending at 6 is for a lot of the classes it ends with a something that one could get with a feat. Rage powers, rogue talents, etc. So count me in the camp with the rest of the E7 folks.
I personally don't mind multiclass characters who end up with +6 BAB getting the second attack. In the rules I'm using, only single class characters will get to choose form the capstone feats that mimic 8th level abilities. Also, there are feats that still let characters treat their BAB as one higher for qualifying for feats, but not as a bonus to attack. There are other feats that do similar things for other classes.
In terms of 4th level spells, I'm still allowing prepared casters get the slot, but I've edited down the spell lists to get rid of what I think of as problem spells. Basically, I'm looking at them on a case by case basis. TOZ is right. You're already doing some major editing to the game. What's a few more spells, or as TOZ said, all 4th level spells. I have no problem with spontaneous casters missing out. By the time a sorcerer is at 7+ 5 or 10, they could have racked up so many new spells known via expanded arcana, they'll be doing just fine.
I think the beauty in E7 is that it's up to you as the GM to decide what works in your game and what doesn't. Want to include something from 12th level, like cranewings? Go ahead, it's your world. Personally, I'm relying on my players to tell me what they want to take as feats. If I think it'll work, then they can take it. I've gone through all the magic items and decided what stays and what goes. Frankly, how they determine CL, or even CL requirements for some items follows no rhyme or reason, so I looked at what feats and what spells it would take to create and ruled what was in.
One last thing I'd like to point out. XP values and level progression have been inflated in PF, so the old 3.5 E6 XP/Feat level of 5,000 needs to be revised. You'll barely have time to play around with a new feat before you grab another. 5,000 xp will come quick, especially at 7th level. If you kept everything relative, from the rate you would gain 5,000 XP in 3.5 and converted the numbers to PF, at E7 you'd be looking at around 12,000 to 15,000 XP (been a while since I ran the numbers)to earn a new feat.
Edit: To actually address your original post, I do think you're over thinking it a little bit. If a player wants to sacrifice better class abilities for a prestige class that they qualify for, let em. You don't need a name for continue along, since by 6th level you'll already know if they've chosen to multiclass, most likely. If they haven't by then, and choose to take their last level in a different class, they're not really continuing anything.
I think there's no need to designate different 7th level paths. The benefits of staying one class are the same, regardless of how many levels you have in your game. The benefits of multiclassing are the same, sacrificing specialization for diversification. Prestige Class is just another type of multiclassing, but in that case, it's usually the opposite. You're getting even more specialized, at the cost of your regular class abilities. Just let it develop organically. Have a plan for 7th, but don't worry about what your players are going to pick. BY then everyone should have a good idea of what to do next.
Sorry if this is too rambling. I'm not that great at short and concise.
|
I'm working on E7 rules myself. I don't have an issue with 4th level spells as much as I do 5th+ level spells (like teleport), so Wizards, Druids and Clerics getting 4th didn't bother me. Plus fourth level has some of the truly classic "I'm a super badass wizard now" spells, like Minor Globe of Invulnerability (which in E7 makes you more or less immune to all but the most powerful wizards in the world), wall of fire, scrying, animate dead, hallucinatory terrain. All of these effects are really spectacular wizardry, but far from impossible to deal with as a DM.
It did seem to screw Sorcerers, so instead of a 7th level Bloodline Feat, I give them their 9th level Bloodline Power at 7th level. Which I thought was a nice consolation prize for never getting 4th level spells.
Alchemists get a "Great Discovery" at 7th, which is one of the standard discoveries that would normally only be available to 8th level characters - but the Extra Discovery feat doesn't grant an extra Grand Discovery.
I also created a handful of "capstone classes" that are perfect 7th levels for characters who have a 3/3 split in two classes. Like the Enforcer is for 3/3 Fighter/Thieves, and gets uncanny dodge and a lesser version of weapon mastery that applies to one specific type of weapon (rather than a group of weapons) from the thieves weapon list.
I also am using the fractional BAB and Saving throw chart from Unearthed Arcana, so that mutliclassing doesn't lead to such screwy saves. Instead of Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2 having saves of Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +0, he'd have Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +2.
IMO, yes, you are overthinking it.
I have no problem with spontaneous casters missing out. By the time a sorcerer is at 7+ 5 or 10, they could have racked up so many new spells known via expanded arcana, they'll be doing just fine.
It really isn't fair to allow Wiz to get 4th level spells, even an edited spell list, without allowing Sor to get them. Some players might be fine, but I would bet most won't do just fine with it.
With 3.5 level 6 was a good cut off point as feats came in at 1/3/6.
...
But for Pathfinder the dynamic is different - Feats come at 1/3/5/7
This is a poor reason to choose E7 over E6 or E8. The whole point about the "E" game is that you will accumulate LOTS of feats, so worrying about when they get their last "regular" feat is the last thing I would do.
as well as a lot of classes getting groovy stuff at 7th as class features.
I looked over the core classes. Wiz/Cle/Dru get 4th level spells. Rangers/Pal get 2nd level spells. Bards get 3rd level spells. Sor get a feat and spell known (which they could eventually get with a feat anyway). That hardly seems fair. 8th is a popular level for wizards to get school, and clerics domain, powers. 9th is good for Sor to get bloodline powers. But maybe I have a different definition of "groovy stuff".
Helaman, the basic problem I believe you are running into is that PF has made an effort to make core classes viable from 1-20. This means the core classes get class abilities all the time and so I imagine you could make an argument for E6, E7, E8, E9,... I have run an E7 (houseruled to give Sor 4th level spells) and am currently running an E8 game.
My suggestion;
-E6
-E7, houserule 4th level spells out (slots and spells)
-E7, houserule Sor up so they get a 4th level spell
-E8
Gailbraithe; while I like the way you are thinking about Sor, giving them their 9th level bloodline power at 7th, I'm pretty sure I would rather have 4th level spells.
Basically, IMO, it boils down to, if you don't want 4th level spells, go E6 and use some of the "groovy" 7th level (or higher) abilities as Capstones. If you want to allow 4th level spells (even if you edit the list), go E8 and allow some 9th level (or higher) abilities as Capstones.
Ending on 7 doesn't require giving 4th level spells. You're already cutting out 13 levels, editing the 14th to not grant 4th level spells shouldn't be such a taboo thing.
True that.
Actually, the simplest would be to let casters have their 4th level spell slots, just don't grant them 4th level spells. 4th level spell slots can be filled with extra 1st, 2nd or 3rd level spells IIRC. And it allows for a few more metamagics... I wonder if that would make it a big issue.
Make 4th level spells the 'epic' spells, those that need to be researched individually and cannot be passed-down.
'findel
Edit: What Dudemeister said... with answer from OP (should learn to read better)
IMO, yes, you are overthinking it.
I have no problem with spontaneous casters missing out. By the time a sorcerer is at 7+ 5 or 10, they could have racked up so many new spells known via expanded arcana, they'll be doing just fine.
It really isn't fair to allow Wiz to get 4th level spells, even an edited spell list, without allowing Sor to get them. Some players might be fine, but I would bet most won't do just fine with it.
....
I guess it's a good thing I don't have any players with a sorcerer in my game. Although after reading a lot of these posts, I kind of like the 4th level "floating" spell slot idea, removing 4th level spells all together. The problem with that is there are some of those I like and feel should stay in the game. I've already made quite a few of them ritual, epic spells. Oh well, I'll just wait and see what my players want.
It kind of got buried in my tl;dr post, but what's everyone else's experience with, well.. experience. Is 5,000 xp for a new feat too little? Just right?
I too believe that as far as Pathfinder RPG is concerned, 7th level is the new 6.
And when does 8 become the new 7? Because many classes get new features then too? The point of E6 was to restrain player power. The fact that Pathfinder classes get new goodies at 7th level, and more goodies over all in the 1-6 range, is that much more of a reason to either stick to 6 levels or give it up entirely.
The original E6 was written when base classes had more "dead" levels than their Pathfinder replacements. The extra bonus given to Pathfinder classes argues against stretching the boundaries if you're looking to keep true to the E6 concept.
This is my first reaction as well. If the case is being made that E6 reduced power too much for the OP's preference, then this presents a fine solution. But I don't think the differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder create any intrinsic need to modify E6 at all.
I think E6 was also chosen for the hit points. A few level 2 human fighters in a gang will still pose a threat to a lvl 6 fighter. I like the idea of E6 because ANY creature can still pose a small threat to even the highest level character (6th).