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One of my fellow players is soon to be playing a paladin, who wields a horse chopper as his primary weapon of all things.
At first I thought nothing of it (well, other than that it was odd for a paladin to be using a goblin weapon), but then I realized that it was a 1d10/x3 reach trip martial weapon (which was, apparently, newly statted in the Inner Sea Guide).
That seems imbalanced and nonsensical to me. I much preferred the version portrayed in the Adventurer's Armory, which stated that it was simply to be treated as a halberd. Seeing as it is meant for "chopping down charging horses" that made perfect sense to me.
In the new version, however, they dropped the brace property and replaced it with the reach property. That makes it FAR more powerful in my opinion and is cause enough to have made it into an exotic weapon. As written, it is better than the glaive in every meaningful way!
What do you think?
pretty sure it is not trip but I'll look
Edit: They did indeed give it both reach and trip. It is a two handed weapon however..
In fact it has the very same stats as a Halberd. Not an issue man, I do agree however I would want to know why he had such a weapon.
I don't see an issue either. It only does an average of .5 hit points over the guisarme which is also has reach and trip. I would probably that the guisarme because it has a higher minimum damage since you get to roll 2d4.
edit:It can't be. Maybe I need to find one of those underground bunkers in case the world ends.
PS:That was in reference to Seeker, not the weapon. He knows what I am talking about.
/thread
One of my fellow players is soon to be playing a paladin, who wields a horse chopper as his primary weapon of all things.
At first I thought nothing of it (well, other than that it was odd for a paladin to be using a goblin weapon), but then I realized that it was a 1d10/x3 reach trip martial weapon (which was, apparently, newly statted in the Inner Sea Guide).
That seems imbalanced and nonsensical to me. I much preferred the version portrayed in the Adventurer's Armory, which stated that it was simply to be treated as a halberd. Seeing as it is meant for "chopping down charging horses" that made perfect sense to me.
In the new version, however, they dropped the brace property and replaced it with the reach property. That makes it FAR more powerful in my opinion and is cause enough to have made it into an exotic weapon. As written, it is better than the glaive in every meaningful way!
What do you think?
Why are you letting a paladin use a goblin weapon? Make him give you a good story or insist that it's a small sized weapon.
Why are you letting a paladin use a goblin weapon? Make him give you a good story or insist that it's a small sized weapon.One of my fellow players is soon to be playing a paladin, who wields a horse chopper as his primary weapon of all things.
At first I thought nothing of it (well, other than that it was odd for a paladin to be using a goblin weapon), but then I realized that it was a 1d10/x3 reach trip martial weapon (which was, apparently, newly statted in the Inner Sea Guide).
That seems imbalanced and nonsensical to me. I much preferred the version portrayed in the Adventurer's Armory, which stated that it was simply to be treated as a halberd. Seeing as it is meant for "chopping down charging horses" that made perfect sense to me.
In the new version, however, they dropped the brace property and replaced it with the reach property. That makes it FAR more powerful in my opinion and is cause enough to have made it into an exotic weapon. As written, it is better than the glaive in every meaningful way!
What do you think?
I am sure finding a human sized one is not an issue. The GM does not really have to explain anything to a player, but not being able to find one is somewhat questionable, and he will probably just go back to the guisarme anyway if that happens. I would not write a background story for .5 points of damage.
PS:I am not saying I don't do backgrounds, because I do, but if I were not doing it then .5 would not make me do it.
I don't see an issue either. It only does an average of .5 hit points over the guisarme which is also has reach and trip. I would probably that the guisarme because it has a higher minimum damage since you get to roll 2d4.
Now compare it to the glaive before asking yourself, "why do glaives even exist in a world with horse choppers?" Leave it to the goblins to create a vastly superior weapon. *rolls eyes*
Why are you letting a paladin use a goblin weapon? Make him give you a good story or insist that it's a small sized weapon.
I'm not the GM on this one.
I don't see an issue either. It only does an average of .5 hit points over the guisarme which is also has reach and trip. I would probably that the guisarme because it has a higher minimum damage since you get to roll 2d4.Now compare it to the glaive before asking yourself, "why do glaives even exist in a world with horse choppers?" Leave it to the goblins to create a vastly superior weapon. *rolls eyes*
I'm not the GM on this one.
Why are you letting a paladin use a goblin weapon? Make him give you a good story or insist that it's a small sized weapon.
There are always superior options in the game. Longswords are better than Battle Axes. Warhammer are better than flails. The key to most people is not the max damage, but to make sure you maximize the minimum damage in which case the guisarme wins.
PS:In short even if a choice is obviously superior, which this one isn't, that does not make all the other ones obsolete. Maybe the hobgobins designed it. :)
Longswords are better than Battle Axes. Warhammer are better than flails.
Longswords do statistically better than battleaxes over time, but in actual play, a lucky hit with a battleaxe can end a fight entirely.
Warhammers are not better than flails if you are wanting to disarm or trip.
Sure, there will be better options out there, but they should be kept at a minimum.
Compared to the glaive, a horse chopper gains a huge increase in power, namely the ability to trip IN ADDITION TO everything the glaive can do. Compared to the halberd it gains reach, which is a HUGE advantage as you gain "first strike" capabilities against non-reach opponents and "AoO avoidance" when facing reach opponents. Giving up brace for reach balances it slightly, but also kills the flavor/purpose of the weapon (which is to take down horses, a creature that is notoriously hard to trip, but easy to kill).
Longswords are better than Battle Axes. Warhammer are better than flails.Longswords do statistically better than battleaxes over time, but in actual play, a lucky hit with a battleaxe can end a fight entirely.
Warhammers are not better than flails if you are wanting to disarm or trip.
Sure, there will be better options out there, but they should be kept at a minimum.
Compared to the glaive, a horse chopper gains a huge increase in power, namely the ability to trip IN ADDITION TO everything the glaive can do. Compared to the halberd it gains reach, which is a HUGE advantage as you gain "first strike" capabilities against non-reach opponents and "AoO avoidance" when facing reach opponents. Giving up brace for reach balances it slightly, but also kills the flavor/purpose of the weapon (which is to take down horses, a creature that is notoriously hard to trip, but easy to kill).
It is better than a glaive, and flavorwise that is kind of what it is, but stat wise it is about the same as the guisarme.
Power wise the weapon is not broken. Flavorwise it is since using the horsechopper to hold the horse at bay and attack it from a distance would made more sense to me.The fact that it is better is still up for debate though, when compared to the guisarme. I will admit it seems to out do the glaive, IMHO.
It seems to me you are more upset with the paladin taking it for power reasons than the actual power of the weapon itself. I think it should have been exotic for flavor reasons since other weapons, not worth a feat, require the exotic weapon feat.
It seems to me you are more upset with the paladin taking it for power reasons than the actual power of the weapon itself.
Why would I, an avid min/maxer, be upset with someone who is man/maxing?
It seems to me you are more upset with the paladin taking it for power reasons than the actual power of the weapon itself.Why would I, an avid min/maxer, be upset with someone who is man/maxing?
I guess upset is the wrong word. I mean to say that is the reason for you attention. I am surprised that this got your attention considering some things you have tried with the rules. <-----Not an insult, just an observation.
My reasoning:The fluff compares it to a glaive, but you can't base broken off of fluff IMO, only mechanics. Mechanically it is .5 above the guisarme which is not a broken* weapon.
*causes issues in most groups or is too good for what you have to give up to get it, and people pretty much agree across the board.
I will point out again that the Horse slicer and the Halberd Have the very same stats
In 3.5 the slicer was worse, now its the same.
I will point out again that the Horse slicer and the Halberd Have the very same stats
In 3.5 the slicer was worse, now its the same.
Comparing the horse slice from the Inner Sea Guide and the halberd from the Core book shows me that one has reach/trip and the other has brace/trip. Other than that, yes, they are identical.
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Comparing the horse slice from the Inner Sea Guide and the halberd from the Core book shows me that one has reach and the other doesn't. Other than that, yes, they are identical.I will point out again that the Horse slicer and the Halberd Have the very same stats
In 3.5 the slicer was worse, now its the same.
There are situations where having a 2h reach trip weapon is better, and there are situations where having a 2h non-reach trip weapon is better (tiny rooms and corridors ahoy?). So it's hardly "broken".
Also, somebody forgot the "the game isn't supposed to have all options 100% balanced" memo.
There are situations where having a 2h reach trip weapon is better, and there are situations where having a 2h non-reach trip weapon is better (tiny rooms and corridors ahoy?). So it's hardly "broken".
The only time I can see this being true is when you are fighting something in your own space, or when in an area in which you cannot take a 5-foot step. Even in such situations, having armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet handy is an extremely cheap fix.
Take a 5-foot wide hallway for example: Per the rules, a reach weapon still works perfectly fine as you can still attack targets in front or behind you with equal ease. You maintain ALL the advantages of the reach weapon that you would have in an open area. Since targets can't get at your sides, it might even be better for you.
Reach weapons ARE better than their non-reach equivalents. There are simply too few scenarios in which you can't use them, and any tactical disadvantages they may possess are too easily remedied.
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There are situations where having a 2h reach trip weapon is better, and there are situations where having a 2h non-reach trip weapon is better (tiny rooms and corridors ahoy?). So it's hardly "broken".The only time I can see this being true is when you are fighting something in your own space, or when in an area in which you cannot take a 5-foot step. Even in such situations, having armor spikes or a spiked gauntlet handy is extremely cheap.
Take a 5-foot wide hallway for example: Per the rules, a reach weapon still works perfectly fine as you can still attack targets in front or behind you with equal ease. You maintain ALL the advantages of the reach weapon that you would have in an open area. Since targets can't get at your sides, it might even be better for you.
My practical experience thunderingly defeats your theorycraft. Next "OMG BROKEN" thread please.
As a goblin weapon, does it not get the whole "if you roll a natural one, this weapon gains the broken condition"?
Per the rules, a reach weapon still works perfectly fine as you can still attack targets in front or behind you with equal ease.
How are you attacking someone that is adjacent to you barring the trait from fighter archetype that allows you to attack adjacent squares with a reach weapon?
As a goblin weapon, does it not get the whole "if you roll a natural one, this weapon gains the broken condition"?
Ah. I had overlooked that. That balances it out somewhat, though it only applies to non-masterwork/magical versions of the weapon.
Per the rules, a reach weapon still works perfectly fine as you can still attack targets in front or behind you with equal ease.How are you attacking someone that is adjacent to you barring the trait from fighter archetype that allows you to attack adjacent squares with a reach weapon?
You 5-foot step back and attack them. Duh. The only time this wouldn't work is if you couldn't 5-foot step OR if you were trapped in a 5x5 foot room or similar situation.
As a goblin weapon, does it not get the whole "if you roll a natural one, this weapon gains the broken condition"?Ah. I had overlooked that. That balances it out somewhat, though it only applies to non-masterwork/magical versions of the weapon.
You 5-foot step back and attack them. Duh. The only time this wouldn't work is if you couldn't 5-foot step OR if you were trapped in a 5x5 foot room or similar situation.Per the rules, a reach weapon still works perfectly fine as you can still attack targets in front or behind you with equal ease.How are you attacking someone that is adjacent to you barring the trait from fighter archetype that allows you to attack adjacent squares with a reach weapon?
I thought you were saying you were surrounded with no open squares.
I thought you were saying you were surrounded with no open squares.
That was not what I was trying to convey, no.
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This is a literal mountain out of a molehill situation. As WriathStrike said the chopper is almost exactly the same as the guisarme. The only difference is the chopper's average damage is a little higher (.5) while the guisearme has a higher min damage.
This is not even worth discussing.
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The horsechopper makes RP sense to me.
As we all know goblins are extremly afraid of horses, so no goblin in his right mind would stand there and brace against a charging horse.
I can easily imagine several goblins surrounding a rider's mount using their small 1d8 reach versions of the weapon to attempt to trip and chop it to the ground.
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Tech, the write up for the horse chopper says nothing about breaking like the dog slicer but I would apply the rule to it BUT as it says in the dog slicer write up, masterwork version do not have that flaw.
Real World History. The Zambato/zhanmadao weapon is identical to the goblin horse slicer. In fact, their names literally mean "horse slicer". The nagamaki, nodochi, chang dao, and pudao are also similar weapons with similar functions as attacking charging horses. However, all of these weapons are are also wonderful for melee combat. I wound even argue that such weapons would have both a 5ft and 10ft range. But that is VERY debatable. Your Paladin just chose his weapon wisely, that's all.
Do they still break on a 1? There's always the fun potential of watching his magical piece-o-crap snap on some mooks head! Unless they changed that, or I am not remembering it correctly.
Only applies to non-masterwork/non-magical versions.
Do they still break on a 1? There's always the fun potential of watching his magical piece-o-crap snap on some mooks head! Unless they changed that, or I am not remembering it correctly.Only applies to non-masterwork/non-magical versions.
Seems to me like what a goblin calls a "masterwork horse-chopper", most people would call a "normal halberd/guisarme".