Scrolls and Use Magic Device

[Hesmah]

Recently I've been wondering about using scrolls in Society play, as Use magic Device rules are as follows:

Quote:

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.

So the DC is 20+ spell level, good so far.

Quote:

In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check. This use of the skill also applies to other spell completion magic items.

Quote:

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you're emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don't need to make this check.

So if you lack the proper ability score, you must emulate it with a different check. So you need another check that's DC 25+ spell level

You need two high checks made at the time of activation, and have to success on both. And you've two chances to roll a 1 which means you can't use the scroll today at all. And with the DC being 21 and 26 for level 1 spells, by the time you could actually succeed on the scrolls, you don't really need them anymore.

Makes sense if you lack mental stats, but the problem here is: You can never use charisma for scroll usage. In normal games you could buy Sorcerer, Oracle and Bard made scrolls to use charisma, but Society Organized Play rules state that:

Quote:

All potions, scrolls, wands, and other consumables are made by wizards, clerics, or druids in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The only exceptions are spells that are not on the wizard, cleric, or druid spell list

So you can never buy charisma based scrolls (except the few bard or witch exclusive spells), nor can you ever buy arcane healing scrolls such as cure light wounds from Bard or Witch spell list.

So what I really want to know is what's the spirit of this rule in Society? Is it to not allow characters to buy cheap versions of spells (Paladin's lesser restoration)? Cause if it is, making UMD very hard and nerfing Bard and Witch scroll usage are unfortunate side-effects that should be fixed.

[Sniggevert]

I think the main spirit of the rule is to get a standardized pricing for all scrolls of X. You set the price based on the big 3 (wizard, cleric, druid), but the scrolls count as whatever type you need (i.e. arcane or divine) for that character. So, bards and witches can buy a cure light wounds scroll and use them the same as a cleric can, as they're on their spell list. At least that's how I've seen it run really.

If the spell ISN'T on the spell list of the character using the scroll, then you've outlined fairly well how it gets ran. YMMV, but from what I've read, that rule for organized play was really inserted just to try and get a baseline price for services across the board.

[Deussu]

Sniggevert wrote:

I think the main spirit of the rule is to get a standardized pricing for all scrolls of X. You set the price based on the big 3 (wizard, cleric, druid), but the scrolls count as whatever type you need (i.e. arcane or divine) for that character. So, bards and witches can buy a cure light wounds scroll and use them the same as a cleric can, as they're on their spell list. At least that's how I've seen it run really.

If the spell ISN'T on the spell list of the character using the scroll, then you've outlined fairly well how it gets ran. YMMV, but from what I've read, that rule for organized play was really inserted just to try and get a baseline price for services across the board.

When I was playing PFS during Season 0, we were still using 3.5. After PFRPG became the rule system in use, the matter with scrolls didn't change. Thus my bard still would need arcane scrolls of cure light wounds.

I and Hesmah have been talking about this. The issue comes with multiple classes what aren't of the big three. Scrolls happen to be a lot more strict than wands. If a wizard creates a scroll, it's an arcane scroll that requires intelligence (per wizard's casting stat). Similarly a druid/cleric creates a divine scroll requiring wisdom. What about those poor souls who cast arcane scrolls and don't have any intelligence?

I've noticed scenario writers rarely tackle with this particular rule about arcane and divine scrolls. Items received from the chronicle sheet should always, despite everything, state whether the scroll is arcane or divine (and preferably the stat used when created). The assumption everything is done by the big three is a bit dumb.

[Sniggevert]

There's been several extremely long threads on this subject, both before and after it was put into effect. The main reason for the rule was to get a uniformity in pricing for expendables. That way, you don't have multiple prices for a scroll of X, depending on whether or not you know the cheapest possible class scriber regardless of possible availability. It does require some tweaking of the rules/hand waving, to not affect the non big 3 casters.

Again, by RAW, yes you need an arcane scroll of cure light wounds scribed by a charisma caster (or a high enough intelligence to cast the spell) for a bard to be able to cast it without UMD. However, due to lack of any type of notation on found scrolls, one just has to assume it's legal for any class that can cast it (if it wasn't found on an NPC who could use it). With purchasing, you find a scroll of X for your character that is priced based on what a big 3 caster would charge.

I hope others may chime in, but from what I've read over the past year or better, this appeared to be the sole intent regardless of the in-fighting this topic bred.

[Mark Garringer]

Sniggevert wrote:

I hope others may chime in, but from what I've read over the past year or better, this appeared to be the sole intent regardless of the in-fighting this topic bred.

Honestly, I've blocked it out. It was a nightmare and a topic I hope is quickly put to bed again.

I believe Sniggevert is correct though in that for PFS purposes it's a cost baseline. Thus during any given random scenario a scroll of cure light wounds that was found would be usable by anyone with CLW on their spell list without excessive UMD checks.

[Dragnmoon]

All we need for this thread to become offical is for james maissen to post in it. ;)

On the OP issue though, Mark and Snigg are correct, the PFS rules on scrolls are for pricing only, the scroll you buy is actually of what ever class you need it to be.

[Hesmah]

The problem is that the rules don't state that the rule is there just for pricing, even though we (I included) assume that's what they were going for.

The rules clearly state that all scrolls are made by druids wizards and clerics, that's it. There's no exceptions of any kind for scrolls on cleric/druid spell lists. Without an official ruling we can't do assumptions that you can buy arcane cure light scrolls when the rules about the matter are so precise.

If there is an official post where it's said that you can get bard (or witch/oracle) scrolls, then cool, but until we have that we have to play by the rules.

The issue wasn't all about arcane/divine, but also about casting stat. For example a rogue with high charisma and UMD can use a sorcerer or oracle scroll easily but not a wizard or cleric scroll, which by rules are only ones allowed.

The thing is - it's not about opinions. It's about the official rules that should be fixed if the only reason they are there is the price of items.

[james maissen]

Dragnmoon wrote:

All we need for this thread to become offical is for james maissen to post in it. ;)

On the OP issue though, Mark and Snigg are correct, the PFS rules on scrolls are for pricing only, the scroll you buy is actually of what ever class you need it to be.

Your wish is answered.

It just shows how any house rule can make things confusing rather than more simple.

It's better just to go with core rules and have the people learn them. Frankly that should be one of the guiding principles of organized play. Both in what it promotes and to where it should adhere.

-James
PS: And scrolls are not 'of a class' rather scrolls are either arcane or are divine. When you emulate a class to activate the scroll it is any class that could read that scroll.

[Mark Garringer]

Oh dear sweet Sarenrae, not again...

Please, please please. Everyone just stop.

I know it's not in the Guide. I know it's not in the Core rules. I know it's a 'hidden messageboard post'. Hopefully this is making it into the 4.0 Guide with some clarity.

[cblome59]

Pulls out another bucket or two to catch exploding heads(tm)

Mark/Hyrum if I'm to become the official head goo collector in the PFS forums, I want a raise... and a higher budget for more buckets...

[Deussu]

So everyone agrees it's dumb and should be changed... and this was almost a year ago? Damn. Well, we'll go by common sense until this ancient issue is written with black ink on white paper.

We'll use common sense after that too.

[Hesmah]

Well I hope it keeps coming up several times a month, blowing a few heads up, until they finally can fix that in the guide! It probably takes a whole freaking minute to fix!

[Scribbling Rambler]

One correction from the OP:

Hesmah wrote:

Quote:

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll.

So the DC is 20+ spell level, good so far.

These are not the same thing - caster level, not spell level.

[Callarek]

So, anyone working on that grand, consolidated magic casting item price list?

Scroll X: 25 gp
Potion X: 50 gp
Wand X: 750 GP

Or maybe Paizo is working on a Pathfinder Grand COmbined Spellbook, containing all spells updated to show which classes have access to them at which levels, and including all spells from all PFRPG sources...

As it is, I have to rely on an Android app, Spellbook - PF, and wait for the source to update it as needed...

[Hesmah]

jaes maissen wrote:

These are not the same thing - caster level, not spell level.

Ah yeah, true.

K Neil Shackleton wrote:

PS: And scrolls are not 'of a class' rather scrolls are either arcane or are divine. When you emulate a class to activate the scroll it is any class that could read that scroll.

I suppose this would include Empyreal Sorcerer archetype then? (Sorcerer that uses wisdom)