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No it is not. It's designed with the assumption that 4 encounters of equal CR should exhaust the party. It then says that harder or easier encounters will increase or decrease the number of encounters the party can handle. There is no minimum number of encounters, nor maximum number.
The game is designed on the assumption of a minimum of 4 equal CR encounters a day.
Obviously some days you will have a one off. But in general, every module, ap, etc...I have ever read has an extended adventure day.
Would you disagree?
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Actually, I've noticed a problem in my SCAP games where the party has one big battle and then nothing for the rest of the day. I haven't determined how much this is my own meddling versus the actual module, but the Umber Hulk Smash encounter is a good as-printed example. It has made it hard for my casters to decide if they should hold back spells or just nova.
I agree with you on the point of resting Ciretose even when i look back at older stuff i have. Red hand of doom, Sunless Citadel, Return to the temple of elemental evil all have rules for what happens if the party doesn't finish in one go. So yes your wizard can burn his spells every fight and run back and rest and they will better prepare for you each time you come back.
That being said if you want something with more staying power through the day with more versitility the Recharge and spell point systems from the unearthed arcana both help.
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It has made it hard for my casters to decide if they should hold back spells or just nova.
And this is the main point. Spontaneous casters don't have make a decision to save specific spells, while regular casters have slots that are occupied. Yes you can leave empty slots, but even with the new minute to learn feat that isn't going to help you in combat when you need it, and it will still require you to find a nice, quiet place on the battlefield to get your mindset right.
I think it is basically a fair trade off.
Bringing it back to the topic at hand, if casters had no loss of spells for the day, as described in the OP example, what would be a fair trade off for that. What spells would have to go/be modified/change level.
Mage armor is a perfect example of one that would need little change. It is on as long as you are willing to devote a focus point to it. But when you want to cast something else...
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Bringing it back to the topic at hand, if casters had no loss of spells for the day, as described in the OP example, what would be a fair trade off for that. What spells would have to go/be modified/change level.I'd approach the problem from the opposite direction. If casters have no daily limits on spells, it would be much easier to pick a small subset of spells that would remain on each spell list than it would be to determine which spells to cut from each spell list. The default assumption for each spell should be "not included."
Ok, so looking at it that way, what is in.
I did my input on the original design post (granted quickly and for 3.5...)
I know, I know. I just said I wasn't going to do this. But my ego wont let me go.
The game is designed on the assumption of a minimum of 4 equal CR encounters a day. Absolute Minimum. And this is assuming you have a party of 4, following WBL, on point buy. If not, they should be facing over CR encounters 4 times a day. Minimum.
I will defer you to TOZ's infinite wisdom.
The APs are completely relevant, as they are the only basis of comparison we can all look to for determining the intent of the designers. I don't know what you run, or how you run. I can only make assumptions. The AP exists, and we can look at it. If your criticism comes from them not allowing time to rest, my praise comes from that very same fact.
No, no, no. You don't have to make any assumptions. You can read the core rules and make decisions. Intent is meaningless. If the creator of risk announced that it was his intent to make risk a naval battle game, that wouldn't change a freaking thing about what risk actually is. D&D is not different. The designers intent can go ff...far away to someplace nice and pleasant.
If your praise is "I think its good that wizards can't ever get spells earlier than the end of the day" which is exactly what the statement you are defending means, than you and I are never going to see eye to eye on this. It doesn't make any logical sense.
If, however, your praise is actually "I like that sometimes you can't always be prepared for every occasion" then the credit goes to Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and Jonathan Tweet who designed the system, not Paizo, adventure paths, and developer intent.
It is as it would be if the game were "real". Things don't wait for your to rest up before you can do something about them. Things happen and you need to react.
Not every single time and under every circumstance as you imply. Things aren't always plotting against you. That's so ludicrous. I shouldn't be having to look over my shoulder 24/7 from all the shadowy forces of the world who hate spell preparation times. I should have to look over my shoulder during an adventure that calls for it.
Never mind resting early, in your campaigns, how do people ever sleep at all?
What Ciretose is saying WP is that once the enemy knows your fighting/investigating/tracking/even looking for them they won't just twiddle their thumbs while you run back to town to switch your fire spells for ice spells since you just found out they were salamanders.
The NPC's aren't scripted video game enemies that don't even notice when you headshot the guy they are talking to they respond with actions appropriate to their intelligence which even at the low end says if we aren't badly wounded chase the guys who just killed Nob and Grebnak and bash their heads in.
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Not every single time and under every circumstance as you imply. Things aren't always plotting against you. That's so ludicrous. I shouldn't be having to look over my shoulder 24/7 from all the shadowy forces of the world who hate spell preparation times. I should have to look over my shoulder during an adventure that calls for it.
Never mind resting early, in your campaigns, how do people ever sleep at all?
Carefully. Hopefully with all relevant enemies taken care of or not yet created.
You are adventurers. You can make friends, you can make enemies. If you attack a BBEG's fortress and leave before you are done, you don't think he might try to do more than just sit and wait for you to come back?
You think maybe if you are trying to solve a mystery or a crime, the guy doing the stuff may take advantage of the fact you took a day off to get more spells?
And since you brought up Monte Cook, let us look at a module he wrote for Pathfinder.
I'll try to keep the
It starts of with an attack of a castle, first encounter is you against the reinforcements, then on to fight in the assault (all same day).
Module is for 10th.
Encounters before any break are CR 12, CR 9, CR 12, CR 13.
That is one day, the first day.
mild
So you were saying about Monte Cook?
You are saying always, I am saying if your DM allows regular naps when things get hard and casters are out of spells, then of course Wizards will seem overpowered. You are negating their main weakness.
What Ciretose is saying WP is that once the enemy knows your fighting/investigating/tracking/even looking for them they won't just twiddle their thumbs while you run back to town to switch your fire spells for ice spells since you just found out they were salamanders.
Oh, I agree that the world doesn't stop for you. I agree that you need to be careful where you try to rest, and the while your resting things are happening. But I don't agree with his assertion that this takes place all the damn time. He hasn't retracted or altered this statement yet...
"Only bad DMs let caster nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day."
Which is the statement I have been attacking and that has been defending. I think casters SHOULD have to consider their surroundings. But his position is insanity. His position doesn't even have room for rope trick. His position implies that ninja's in the pocket dimension of your rope trick spell are better than letting wizards have spells.
The NPC's aren't scripted video game enemies that don't even notice when you headshot the guy they are talking to they respond with actions appropriate to their intelligence which even at the low end says if we aren't badly wounded chase the guys who just killed Nob and Grebnak and bash their heads in.
You are I are on the same side here I think.
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Oh, I agree that the world doesn't stop for you. I agree that you need to be careful where you try to rest, and the while your resting things are happening. But I don't agree with his assertion that this takes place all the damn time. He hasn't retracted or altered this statement yet...
"Only bad DMs let caster nap and recover spells in the middle of an adventuring day."
Which is the statement I have been attacking and that has been defending. I think casters SHOULD have to consider their surroundings. But his position is insanity. His position doesn't even have room for rope trick. His position implies that ninja's in the pocket dimension of your rope trick spell are better than letting wizards have spells.
My position is that a well designed encounter means rope trick is only sometimes useful, and your wizard is regularly challenged to make due understanding that you are on a schedule.
Rope trick is great. Sometimes your enemies have it too. And when they know you are leaving and coming back, sometimes they set traps and change tactics.
I think your reaching on extra dimensional ninja's he isnt say that what he is saying is that if you bring attention to yourself expect the enemy to respond maybe they do try to ambush you in the woods or maybe they change their defenses but something will happen. As far as the letting casters nap mid adventure day if their are 4 set piece encounters set for day one and after each one the party goes back to town i would hope by time 2 that the enemies are going to force the PC's into a spot they can't leave.
Reminds me of a player who was so against 4E that when we first started playing would blow his daily on the first encounter then b+@@! that it was gone until they could rest.
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Ok, so looking at it that way, what is in.Well, since your system has spells end immediately if the caster stops focusing on them, anything with a really long duration, say 1 hour/level or longer, is in. For everything else, I'd pretty much use the warlock test. Is it one of the invocations that a warlock can use at will? If yes, it's in. If no, it's out.
You pretty much have to cut anything involving divination or scrying; non-combat healing; long-distance teleportation; minute/level buffs; 10 minute/level buffs; instantaneous effects that linger once created; non-combat charms and compulsions whose effect is balanced by short durations; anything that could be used to dominate a social encounter; anything that duplicates a non-combat skill; etc. Pretty much anything that is most useful in non-combat situations.
Having to drop your focus on defensive magic to cast any of the aforementioned spells isn't a meaningful drawback, because you wouldn't need any defensive spells at the times those spells are being cast.
I think you can have mixes and matches. I think you could have a caster type who can use much of the divination stuff in a limited way, if you don't give them access to some other spells in exchange.
Teleportation is out, but fly is fine. Buffs are case by case, because they are also turned off immediately.
You always need defensive magic. If I have to drop my buffs to cast a fireball, next round I have no defenses up. That is a trade off when you consider the normal magic user has hours per level spells up all the time.
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You always need defensive magic. If I have to drop my buffs to cast a fireball, next round I have no defenses up. That is a trade off when you consider the normal magic user has hours per level spells up all the time.You're thinking too much about adventuring in dungeons and the wilderness. A spellcaster who spends most of his time working as a detective would have a field day with unlimited divinations, and a spellcaster who spends most of his time in a king's court would love to cast charms on every person he meets, in turn.
The whole "a few things active at a time" mechanic works best for combat-specific stuff. Once you get into spells that affect society on a larger scale, you really do need more limits than just "whenever I'm not defending myself from immanent danger." Because that's most of the time for spellcasting NPCs around town.
Fair enough. The spell list really is the key.
Some caveats could be added to be able to include some spells, but I don't want it becoming overly complex.
Thinking about trying this in the CC AP very soon with abit of borrowing from the recharge rules so that certain spells lock out for so long once your dont concentrating on them making your choice of who to cast it on much more than a well i can change it next round.
So basically the ability is the "clip" in your magic "gun" you need to swap out, as a standard action?
Sort of. With lesser abilities you would have infinite ammo. Greater abilities, yeah, you gotta change your clip or insert a new missile as it were. Or 'power up' if that makes you feel better.
The ability slots are kinda like a hot bar, you can only fit so many in at a time and both your lesser and greater abilities use the space.
I love that idea. It's cool as hell and could fit very well, not the least for semi-casters.
For pathfinder, I'd suggest having "lesser" and "greater" slots with different maximum spell level (if still keeping PF spells), the lesser slots being all-day and lower max spell level and greater being once until re-channeled with higher max spell level, instead of having greater and lesser effects as in your system. Easier to manage in a level-based system.
This has given me some ideas I'm now putting together for an RPG system of my own. :D
You have three pools of points:
Health.
Stamina.
Spirit/Mana/Something.
If you take damage, you gain 'battered' points. If you take battered points beyond your health total, you gain 'broken' points instead. If you have broken points equal or greater than your health total, you die. There may be penalties to actions based on the number of broken points taken. Some crits and effects may deal broken points directly. A ten minute rest after a fight removes battered points. Magical healing or long term care are required to remove broken points.
You gain 'fatigue' points to activate martial talents, tough out penalties from broken status and such. Fatigue points fade at a certain rate per round or perhaps by taking a 'breather' action to refresh. If your fatigue points equal or exceed your stamina total, you can't act and any further fatigue is taken as exhaustion. You can also 'bind' stamina from your total (thereby reducing your total temporarily) into various combat stances for bonuses or abilities. The total is restored when leaving the stance. Some abilities or critical damage may cause you to gain 'exhaustion' points. These are like broken points in that they cause penalties and cannot be removed without extended rest or healing.
Here's the bit you may be interested in:
Spirit works similarly, but is used for spellcasting. You can bind spirit points into sustained effect spells such as defenses or long-term abilities. These points are inaccessible and do not replenish until the spell is released. You can spend spirit points to cast most instantaneous spells. Points spent this way may refresh after an action to refocus. This may be something doable during combat or perhaps takes ten minutes. You can also 'burn' spirit points to cast more potent or important spells. Points burned cannot be recovered until taking a full rest or meditation (once a day).
Let's say my sorcerer has ten spirit points:
oooooooooo
She casts buff spell. This binds 4 points.
. . . . oooooo
Then she decides to teleport to a battle. This burns 3 points.
xxx . . . . ooo
She wants to cast a fireball but this costs 6 points! She releases heroism in order to cast.
xxxooooooo
Then casts fireball!
xxxo
She is low on spirit and takes an action to refocus, gaining some amount (say five).
xxxoooooo
And so on. The binding and burning points should keep 'infinite use' abilities under control. :D
Vancian is basically you memorize the spell from your spell list, up to however many spell slots you have for the day. Once you cast the spell, you cross it off your spells for the day. Done.
To be fair with the magic system, there is more to vancian magic that the fact that spells are like 'disposable ammo' in a magic gun.
The very nature of a D&D spell, the fact that it is fireball and cannot be changed to fire-bolt or electric-ball, is very vancian in nature.
In a non-vancian magic system, spells are not packaged, and magic if more flexible (can be tuned down of amplified freely). Many have a tendency to forget about this aspect of vancian magic.
Also, the fact that magic isn't simply a skill that one can perform spell after spell indefinitely is also a central element to vancian magic. The whole concept of spell slots (or whatever they are called) and the philosophy that spells are a finite resource is also a central element of vancian magic.
Therefore from what I can understand, you don't mind vancian magic, but you have a problem with spell preparation for every caster.
'findel
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Vancian is basically you memorize the spell from your spell list, up to however many spell slots you have for the day. Once you cast the spell, you cross it off your spells for the day. Done.
To be fair with the magic system, there is more to vancian magic that the fact that spells are like 'disposable ammo' in a magic gun.
The very nature of a D&D spell, the fact that it is fireball and cannot be changed to fire-bolt or electric-ball, is very vancian in nature.
In a non-vancian magic system, spells are not packaged, and magic if more flexible (can be tuned down of amplified freely). Many have a tendency to forget about this aspect of vancian magic.
Also, the fact that magic isn't simply a skill that one can perform spell after spell indefinitely is also a central element to vancian magic. The whole concept of spell slots (or whatever they are called) and the philosophy that spells are a finite resource is also a central element of vancian magic.
Therefore from what I can understand, you don't mind vancian magic, but you have a problem with spell preparation for every caster.
'findel
The point I was trying to make was that the mechanics were fairly simple and straightforward.
I have no issue with vancians magic or spell preparation. I think that is a great option.
I would also like to have another option where spells aren't a finite "per day" resource as much as they are finite in a casters ability to focus and maintain spells through focus and concentration.
It is a different type of casting, not intended to replace any that currently exists.
The point I was trying to make was that the mechanics were fairly simple and straightforward.
I have no issue with vancians magic or spell preparation. I think that is a great option.
I would also like to have another option where spells aren't a finite "per day" resource as much as they are finite in a casters ability to focus and maintain spells through focus and concentration.
It is a different type of casting, not intended to replace any that currently exists.
OK, I hear you