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@FGG Chuck
Your comment direct at me (OP) seems to indicate a link of page counts to a lack if knowledge of editing. Firstly, I have made no reference to page count. Others have made that link. Personally, I have no care of page length. I would be happy for more. :)
Secondly, I do not pretend to be editor or be in the editing. My experience is one of an RPG enthusiast, collector and lover of pathfinder products. In my opinion and other like minded people, some Paizo products have been rushed with errors.
I opened the OP with clear intent not to bash. I have expressed my concerns. Feedback has been the tool Paizo has used to develop and promote their brand. This is the single thing that attracted my back to D&D then pathfinder was this. The ability to directly communicate with the staff if Paizo. I appreciate being able to do this.
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I'll be 100% honest, at first the little errors never bothered me at all. I was too excited about the fantastic new content to allow a few mistakes to detract from the glorious warm fuzzies I got from reading the newest from Paizo. Then I started actually noticing the errors because I was becoming used to the content being so darn awesome.
Now I am trying my hand at making my own product and I'll be danged if editing is not the absolute hardest thing in the process. Typos, little errors, just don't matter to me anymore in Paizo's products. They annoy the heck out of me in mine (only two small products so far and learning a great deal).
Honestly, I suggest people try to put together a published quality product for themselves some day. I can attest from first hand knowledge that sitting in the armchair and griping does not hold up in the real world. Editing just plain sucks and will never be 100%.
Now, the ONLY complaint I have with Paizo's schedule is that my wallet can't keep up with it. I just cannot possibly afford to buy everything I want to buy. Does that mean I want them to slow their schedule? Heck no! MORE MORE MORE! Give me 365.24 products a year! ;-)
And for the 3PP guys out there... MORE MORE MORE!
BTW, without doing the math, I would bet that the average Paizo product has a quality percentage of well above 99%. Lets assume there are roughly 670 words per page, so a 256 page book has roughly 171,500 words. Give or take some. A 1% error rate would mean there were 1,715 words with errors. An errata might be a few pages long, but that includes the context around the mistake itself. So, we are complaining about an error rate of less than 1%? Seriously? How many people can boast that they have an error rate of less than 1% in what they do? Not me.
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Oh and I find it amusing that some of the posts complaining the most vehemently about errors often have many typos in them... ;-)
*looks over this post for errors- bound to be one somewhere*
**wow almost posted it without including the space after the hyphen!** lol
In all seriousness though, the errors that Paizo makes is infinitesimal compared to its output. The ONLY reason to cut back their schedule is a lack of quality new ideas. And that is not something I see happening anytime soon.
Well, I certainly appreciate that Paizo does the best it can. Errors happen. As long as there's a way to correct the egregious ones quickly (via FAQ or message board posts), then it's all good.
[...] the errors that Paizo makes is infinitesimal compared to its output.
This is funny on multiple levels.
Not as funny as 106-page errata documents :)[...] the errors that Paizo makes is infinitesimal compared to its output.This is funny on multiple levels.
WAT.
:-)
Ah, editions and stuff, again.
Well, those don't really count, because the players can just print out a character sheet with all the updates included, and the DM can do the same with monsters. Also, whitespace. Also, compendium.
I actually prefer the way Errata is handled now to the PF and 3.5 way, because if you wanted to change it in the original books, you can just print out the errata and sticker it over, instead of having to somehow write it in with pencils, because of the formatting.
But that's probably off-topic and if you really feel like discussing this, lets do it on the 4E board.
@FGG Chuck
Your comment direct at me (OP) seems to indicate a link of page counts to a lack if knowledge of editing. Firstly, I have made no reference to page count. Others have made that link. Personally, I have no care of page length. I would be happy for more. :)Secondly, I do not pretend to be editor or be in the editing. My experience is one of an RPG enthusiast, collector and lover of pathfinder products. In my opinion and other like minded people, some Paizo products have been rushed with errors.
I opened the OP with clear intent not to bash. I have expressed my concerns. Feedback has been the tool Paizo has used to develop and promote their brand. This is the single thing that attracted my back to D&D then pathfinder was this. The ability to directly communicate with the staff if Paizo. I appreciate being able to do this.
1) The page count thing was an FYI for everybody. It's an interesting bit of knowledge, I think. Notice how I quoted Eric Mona talking about page counts when it came up in the thread. I don't know how you made the connection you made.
2) Pointing out a lack of knowledge about how things work is not bashing you or anyone. My point was that if you had someone in your circle of friends who was in the publishing industry they would have explained to you what has been explained in this thread already.
Now, the ONLY complaint I have with Paizo's schedule is that my wallet can't keep up with it. *** How many people can boast that they have an error rate of less than 1% in what they do? Not me.
Quoted here because I can't find a better way to say it myself.
Krome, is the product you're talking about under your own aegis or are you producing for someone else? Has it (have they) been released to the public yet? I assume it's a gaming product?
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Quite a few gamers I know are concerned that "book bloat" is rapidly setting in. Two hardcovers a year was the sweet spot it seems. This gives everyone enough chance to digest the new goodies. Within what seems to be about a 15 month span we're looking at 5 hardcovers released: Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Bestiary 3.
I'm hoping that pace drastically slows down. Affording that many primary PFRPG books plus the AP subscription is too much. The additional spells, feats, classes, archetypes, racial options and so on have to be "processed" for lack of a better word. They need to work themselves into the Adventure Paths so both GMs and players can see them in action.
The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.
Director of Brand Strategy
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The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.
The first two installments of Jade Regent feature samurai and ninja, so they'll be using material from Ultimate Combat nearly right away. Keep in mind that some APs don't need to use the newest material to tell the story they need to tell. If Jade Regent didn't need to include Asian elements, it would likely have been "behind" by several months as well.
The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.The first two installments of Jade Regent feature samurai and ninja, so they'll be using material from Ultimate Combat nearly right away. Keep in mind that some APs don't need to use the newest material to tell the story they need to tell. If Jade Regent didn't need to include Asian elements, it would likely have been "behind" by several months as well.
I don't *mind* that new material is not included if not necessary. Just that books are being cranked out at a pace that is not going to be something many can actually afford to keep up with at one every 3 months (more or less).
Jade Regent featuring Ultimate Combat is a smart move to get some GM excitement going about the new bells and whistles. Some players gotta have a crack at knowing what the GM is going to be sicc'ing on 'em. ^_^
Quite a few gamers I know are concerned that "book bloat" is rapidly setting in. Two hardcovers a year was the sweet spot it seems. This gives everyone enough chance to digest the new goodies. Within what seems to be about a 15 month span we're looking at 5 hardcovers released: Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Bestiary 3.
I'm hoping that pace drastically slows down. Affording that many primary PFRPG books plus the AP subscription is too much. The additional spells, feats, classes, archetypes, racial options and so on have to be "processed" for lack of a better word. They need to work themselves into the Adventure Paths so both GMs and players can see them in action.
The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.
3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.
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I think part of the problem with Paizo editing is that new classes are playtested extensively, although Alchemists still are crazy over-powered, but nothing else seems to be playtested or even reviewed. I went through a couple of pages of the APG finding error after error. I will admit that I am rather picky and have been known to send friends spelling corrections for their emails.
I suspect it's due to Paizo being a small company: I've written game adventures, as well as documentation and requirements in my business career and it's very hard to find mistakes in a document you have read over and over.
I think a final review by someone who was not previously involved in a product could help a lot. Find someone you trust not to distribute an electronic copy (or break it up among a few people for increased security) and give them a copy of the finished product upon successful completion of the review. It wouldn't be expensive, nor would it be perfect, but it would demonstrate a commitment to quality.
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I think part of the problem with Paizo editing is that new classes are playtested extensively, although Alchemists still are crazy over-powered, but nothing else seems to be playtested or even reviewed. I went through a couple of pages of the APG finding error after error. I will admit that I am rather picky and have been known to send friends spelling corrections for their emails.
I suspect it's due to Paizo being a small company: I've written game adventures, as well as documentation and requirements in my business career and it's very hard to find mistakes in a document you have read over and over.
I think a final review by someone who was not previously involved in a product could help a lot. Find someone you trust not to distribute an electronic copy (or break it up among a few people for increased security) and give them a copy of the finished product upon successful completion of the review. It wouldn't be expensive, nor would it be perfect, but it would demonstrate a commitment to quality.
I'm quite sure, as any (even much smaller) company trying to make a living through publishing written material, Paizo has professional editors on the payroll.
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I'm quite sure, as any (even much smaller) company trying to make a living through publishing written material, Paizo has professional editors on the payroll.
You could have fooled me. I need to leave shortly, but I'll take a detailed look at a couple of pages of material in the next day or two and post the results here.
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And then what? You can post the errors, the editors didn't find, but since you probably haven't seen the manuscript given to the editors, that doesn't show anything. No editor, regardless how good, will find every misspelled word, grammar error or even every continuity error. Go ahead, proofread a Harry Potter novel (arguable one of the bestselling books ever), sooner or later you will find errors. Watch a Blockbuster movie with an editors eye - you will see bits that shouldn't have made it into the final cut (there are whole websites dedicated to these errors).
Does that mean there were no professional editors on it? No, it just means somewhere among the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of little errors some slipped through. The more editorial runs you give a publication, the less errors will remain, but more editorial runs mean higher costs, too.
Looking at the amount of text (keep in mind that the text one one rulebook page is much more then the text on the page of a novel), the obscure words that sometimes get used by rpg writers and the (comparatively) small printrun compared to major novels, I'm amazed how few errors make it through editing.
Looking at the amount of text (keep in mind that the text one one rulebook page is much more then the text on the page of a novel), the obscure words that sometimes get used by rpg writers and the (comparatively) small printrun compared to major novels, I'm amazed how few errors make it through editing.
Well, they can do better, as editing quality varies greatly between products. Also, errors in rule text are much more of a problem than in simple fluff, as rule will be referenced again and again, while an error in e.g. an AP (or in a novel) might be seen only once or twice by a DM.
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3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.Quite a few gamers I know are concerned that "book bloat" is rapidly setting in. Two hardcovers a year was the sweet spot it seems. This gives everyone enough chance to digest the new goodies. Within what seems to be about a 15 month span we're looking at 5 hardcovers released: Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Bestiary 3.
I'm hoping that pace drastically slows down. Affording that many primary PFRPG books plus the AP subscription is too much. The additional spells, feats, classes, archetypes, racial options and so on have to be "processed" for lack of a better word. They need to work themselves into the Adventure Paths so both GMs and players can see them in action.
The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.
Per Calendar Year, perhaps. APG - July 2010. Bestiary 2 - Nov 2010. Ultimate Magic - April 2011. Ultimate Combat - August 2011. Bestiary 3, most likely October/November 2011 (no release date announced on the product schedule). 17 months/74-75 weeks for 5 hardcover books - that is pretty fast and furious when one factors in everything else that is being produced at 15 weeks averaged per book.
The last 3 have been or are going to be released in a very tight window of 7 months/30-31 weeks, allowing only 10 weeks per book. That is the concern myself and many of my group have. Those extra 5+ weeks make a difference and it shows (comparing APG to UM).
The time-per-book for the first two is even greater than the 5 books over 17 months average, since there were 2 books in 2009 and 2 in 2010. They were allowed far greater production time than the 3 books this year, on the order of 20-25 weeks per book.
Having half again as much time allowed per book ... I'd rather have 2 books per year than 3. The books are better and easier to budget for on the subscription side of the equation.
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Looking at the amount of text (keep in mind that the text one one rulebook page is much more then the text on the page of a novel), the obscure words that sometimes get used by rpg writers and the (comparatively) small printrun compared to major novels, I'm amazed how few errors make it through editing.Well, they can do better, as editing quality varies greatly between products. Also, errors in rule text are much more of a problem than in simple fluff, as rule will be referenced again and again, while an error in e.g. an AP (or in a novel) might be seen only once or twice by a DM.
I won't argue this. The less errors the better. Still, even the "bad book" (editing wise) hold up quite well if I compare them to similar products from other publishers.
3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.Quite a few gamers I know are concerned that "book bloat" is rapidly setting in. Two hardcovers a year was the sweet spot it seems. This gives everyone enough chance to digest the new goodies. Within what seems to be about a 15 month span we're looking at 5 hardcovers released: Bestiary 2, APG, Ultimate Magic, Ultimate Combat and Bestiary 3.
I'm hoping that pace drastically slows down. Affording that many primary PFRPG books plus the AP subscription is too much. The additional spells, feats, classes, archetypes, racial options and so on have to be "processed" for lack of a better word. They need to work themselves into the Adventure Paths so both GMs and players can see them in action.
The APs are "behind" the new rules books excepting the Bestiaries (the only rule books that they are decidedly 'in front of') by anywhere from six months to a year or more. Maybe this will have changed with Jade Regent, we won't know for a bit.
Per Calendar Year, perhaps. APG - July 2010. Bestiary 2 - Nov 2010. Ultimate Magic - April 2011. Ultimate Combat - August 2011. Bestiary 3, most likely October/November 2011 (no release date announced on the product schedule). 17 months/74-75 weeks for 5 hardcover books - that is pretty fast and furious when one factors in everything else that is being produced at 15 weeks averaged per book.
The last 3 have been or are going to be released in a very tight window of 7 months/30-31 weeks, allowing only 10 weeks per book. That is the concern myself and many of my group have. Those extra 5+ weeks make a difference and it shows (comparing APG to UM).
The time-per-book for the first two is even greater than the 5 books over 17 months average, since there were 2 books in 2009 and 2 in 2010. They were allowed far greater production time than the 3 books this year, on the order of 20-25 weeks per book.
Having half again as much time allowed...
There were 3 books in 2010 GMG in April,APG in August, and Bestiary 2 in December (it was pushed back from Nov). There were 2 books in 2009,the CRB in August and the Bestiary in October. There are 3 books in 2011 Ultimate Magic in April (pushed back to May), Ultimate Combat in August, and Bestiary 3 in November. In 2012 we get the Advanced Race Guide in April, and then 2 more. That seems pretty consistent at 3 Hardcover rulebooks a year.
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Ah, I had forgotten the GMG, largely because it is not a "primary" game book as far as session-to-session usage goes. There's some good stuff in there, it's just not as vital as books like APG, UM, UC and the CRB are, let alone the Bestiaries.
3/year can work - if one is a Bestiary. At the present rate of 3/year it seems that everything will be done that can be considered "base rules" in 2 or maybe 3 years. I like options - but economic times are what they are. 3 hardcovers in 7 months is a bit fast. If the books were more evenly spread across the year it would help a lot.
Whether or not it can be is another matter.
3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.
And which is also what we were told up front, before they were even being printed.
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Looking at the amount of text (keep in mind that the text one one rulebook page is much more then the text on the page of a novel), the obscure words that sometimes get used by rpg writers and the (comparatively) small printrun compared to major novels, I'm amazed how few errors make it through editing.
There is a technique in Software Quality Assurance called error seeding. The basic idea is that you deliberately introduce a known number of errors into a document/project and evaluate how many of those errors are caught during the development process.
This serves as a proxy for the number of errors in the project as a whole and helps determine whether additional testing is warranted. For example, I introduce 100 errors into a project. When the project has been tested and is being considered for release, I look at the number of known errors found. If 300 errors were found, including 75 of the "seeded" errors, the expectation is that 75% of the errors were caught in testing and 25 seeded errors and 75 other errors remain. This is a reasonably good result and you would probably release the project; however, if you only caught 25 of the seeded errors, further review and testing is essential.
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I know about error seeding, it is a tried technique in the analysis of social (and probably other) surveys, as well. I fail to understand however (I'm not being snarky here, I really think that I must have missed your point) what makes this a reply to my post. Would you be so kind and take your time to explain it to me?
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3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.
Seven books since Aug. 2009 to Aug. 2011......
Core
Bestiary
Gamemasters Guide
Advance Players Guide
Bestiary 2
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate Combat
Since Paizo has their release schedule from Aug. to Aug centered around Gencon then that should be the "year" its measured around.
Then not really a Hard Cover but the GM Screen is on that subscription as well....
I do like all the books...but in the same breath seems the pace is picking up with....well everyone knows what I am concerned about.
Sean
3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.Seven books since Aug. 2009 to Aug. 2011......
Core
Bestiary
Gamemasters Guide
Advance Players Guide
Bestiary 2
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate CombatSince Paizo has their release schedule from Aug. to Aug centered around Gencon then that should be the "year" its measured around.
Then not really a Hard Cover but the GM Screen is on that subscription as well....
I do like all the books...but in the same breath seems the pace is picking up with....well everyone knows what I am concerned about.
Sean
How is that not 3 books a year? ( unless you count the screen as an 8th HC)
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3 Hardcovers a year is fine with me, which is what we are getting.Seven books since Aug. 2009 to Aug. 2011......
Core
Bestiary
Gamemasters Guide
Advance Players Guide
Bestiary 2
Ultimate Magic
Ultimate CombatSince Paizo has their release schedule from Aug. to Aug centered around Gencon then that should be the "year" its measured around.
Then not really a Hard Cover but the GM Screen is on that subscription as well....
I do like all the books...but in the same breath seems the pace is picking up with....well everyone knows what I am concerned about.
Sean
How is that not 3 books a year? ( unless you count the screen as an 8th HC)
Ummm 7 books in a two year period?......7 divided by 2 = 3.5
Ummm 7 books in a two year period?......7 divided by 2 = 3.5
How is that not 3 books a year? ( unless you count the screen as an 8th HC)
Counting 3 August releases means you are looking at more than 2 years. August, 2, 3, August, 2, 3, August, 2, 3...
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Counting 3 August releases means you are looking at more than 2 years. August, 2, 3, August, 2, 3, August, 2, 3...Ummm 7 books in a two year period?......7 divided by 2 = 3.5
How is that not 3 books a year? ( unless you count the screen as an 8th HC)
Okay, I stand corrected on that. :o) Even though technically the Core was like Aug 13th in 2009. :O)
Edit: Though then that means with Advance Race Guide they are at their three books for the year.
Ultimate Comabt, Bestiary 3, Advance Race Guide. I am sure they will release one at Gencon as well if not one in between. Plus really the Beginners Box set should be counted since its nearly as much as a Hard Cover if not more and probably required just as much work on their part.
For the record, put me down as one person who doesn't really care much about typos but does care about mechanics that are confusing, ambiguous, or poorly balanced.
Not that I'm saying that there are a lot of those.
Considering how much work it was to put together, I'd absolutely count the Beginner's Box as a hardcover.
Inner Sea World Guide too.
So, 5 or maybe 6 'hardcovers' in 12-15 months ... faster than the 3/year 'guideline'.
I love the ambition, I just can't afford to keep up with that release pace. (Right now, at least.)
:) KUTGW!
The first two installments of Jade Regent feature samurai and ninja, so they'll be using material from Ultimate Combat nearly right away. Keep in mind that some APs don't need to use the newest material to tell the story they need to tell. If Jade Regent didn't need to include Asian elements, it would likely have been "behind" by several months as well.
I understand that Paizo (justifiably) wants to cross-promote, but the idea that Jade Regent "needed" samurais and ninjas (that is, would have materially suffered if the NPCs therein were built as, say, fighters and rogues) simply strains credulity.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The very day that we began offering subscriptions for the RPG line, we told people:
...we're shooting for about three to four times a year, with one book each year being a monster book and one probably being something smaller like a GM Screen or softcover player's guide or something.
And we've stuck to that. (As has been pointed out, our year begins at Gen Con in August.)
Year 1:
Core Rulebook (August)
Bestiary (October)
GM Screen (December)
GameMastery Guide (June)
Year 2:
Advanced Player's Guide (August)
Bestiary 2 (December)
Ultimate Magic (May)
Year 3:
Ultimate Combat (August)
Beginner Box (October)
Bestiary 3 (November)
Advanced Race Guide (April)
(Yes, James is right that Inner Sea Magic was a lot of work, but A) it was not in the Roleplaying Game line, which is what we were talking about when we gave the number of releases, and B) that workload *was* factored into our plans, which is part of the reason why year 2 has three releases.)
And yes, we do intend to continue at the same pace of three standard hardcover releases and (maybe) one non-standardish thing.
Yes, sir, it should have been!...Inner Sea Magic was a lot of work...Umm, should 'Inner Sea Magic' have been 'Inner sea Guide'?
:-?
I think Vic should review his posting schedule to avoid such egregious errors! ;)