I tried out the Craft skill.I built a level 6 expert with Craft(Weapons) +6(skill ranks) +3(class skill) +2(int mod) +2(Aid from apprentice) +2(Masterwork Tools) = +15
A masterwork component for a longsword cost 300 gp(3000 sp) and has a craft DC of 20
Even if he has an average of 10 + Craft 15 =25 * 20 = 500 sp each week, it still takes the expert 6 weeks to complete it(500 sp * 6 = 3000 sp).
Working 8 hours a day, on one sword.
What if you want to equip an army?
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Couple of things.
1) He can set his DC to 25 if he chooses, then he gets 25 * 25 per week. That would be 625 sp per week, or 4.8 weeks. Basically shaving a week off.
2) 5 weeks for a MW sword is not at all unusual.
3) Nobody in their right mind outfits and equips an army with MW swords. The expense alone would break a country. 10,000 soldiers, each with a MW sword, would require over 3 million gold pieces.
4) A country that is equipping an army is going to have an entire 'army' of smiths making swords and weapons, and a small cadre making MW equipment for the high ranking officers. In all likelyhood, they're going to use mold-forge techniques to make cheap swords. Melt metal, pour it in mold, let it harden, sharpen and distribute. Even an apprentice can make an average sword in a day. So, if you have 100 smiths working, they can make 700 swords a week. It takes about 3 months to fully outfit your 10,000 man army with swords. That's assuming you don't just buy swords off the market to flesh out things and speed things up.
You probably should factor skill focus into that for an additional +3, important to note that armies are not equiped with masterwork weapons.
While it might take a long time having it be much faster to craft would mess up the shaky game economics, as it stands it just isnt very useful for PCs.
Definitely.
While i understand the need for realism, the warrior who forges his own sword is pretty iconic. I think its more than a little odd that it takes a warrior more time to make a masterwork adamantite sword than it does for the wizard to make it +5 and vorpal.
The Craft rules have been causing headaches since 3.0.
One houserule that can make it less cumbersome: for special materials that are automatically considered masterwork (adamantine, darkwood, dragonhide, mithral), the additional cost for the material does not add to the item creation time (basically applying similar rules as dragonhide for other substances). The crafter still has to pay the cost of the raw materials (can't make an adamantine sword without adamantine, after all), but only counts the normal item + masterwork component for crafting time. GMs may also want to apply an ad hoc +2 to the item Craft DC for working with the special material.
Note that alchemical silver and cold iron would still add to the crafting time. However, they require special techniques and don't add large amounts to the price of the item.
The rules for item creation bother me more to be honest.
I would be fine with it if crafting went twice as fast, and actually would like it better if magical items were held to similar guidelines.. at least in a campaign with lower than average magic.
random solutions :
1) Make mw weapons a bit cheaper, like 150 gold + twice the cost of the base item, would take roughly 18 days for sample expert to make a mw longsword if he had skill focus then.
2) Rules to speed up crafting, much like the forced march rules.
3) a Feat to cut crafting times considerably.
What bothers me the most is really that the craft skills are completely useless past level 3 or 4.
Before that they're ok to safe money if you have a couple of weeks downtime (which is not often the case, in which case its useless even then).
After that you usually have enough money to just buy the MW item from an NPC, and you want magic stuff at this point anyway, which you can't build with craft anymore.
I mean seriously, what would a level 10 character want with the craft skills, except being sad that he wasted points into them that could have been used for something else?
Alchemy for an alchemist is maybe the exception, but all the other magic item creation feats can use Spellcraft instead, which most magic users have already.
If you want to equip an army with masterwork weapons.
You need an army of smiths!
I mean seriously, what would a level 10 character want with the craft skills, except being sad that he wasted points into them that could have been used for something else?
Master Craftsman
I mean seriously, what would a level 10 character want with the craft skills, except being sad that he wasted points into them that could have been used for something else?
Its nice and thematic that its there, but its horribly suboptimal compared to casters taking forge magic weapon.
You can't take master craftsman till 5th level. That then gives you the ability to take craft magic arms and armor at 7th. Craft magic arms and armor can be taken at 5th. (so your level 10 character has only been doing this for 3 levels)
Bob the blacksmith blows 2 feats and can craft weapons made with weaponsmithing (since master craftsman is tied to the skill, not the feat). Bob can make his magic sword, but if he wants to make the archers bow too, he has to wait till level 9 and take master craftsman again in Craft: Bowmaking. Merlin the wizard takes the feat once and can make any weapon he wants magical.
Bob the blacksmith and merlin the wizard both use their int scores to help them craft. Guess who's is higher?
I tried out the Craft skill.I built a level 6 expert with Craft(Weapons) +6(skill ranks) +3(class skill) +2(int mod) +2(Aid from apprentice) +2(Masterwork Tools) = +15
A masterwork component for a longsword cost 300 gp(3000 sp) and has a craft DC of 20
Even if he has an average of 10 + Craft 15 =25 * 20 = 500 sp each week, it still takes the expert 6 weeks to complete it(500 sp * 6 = 3000 sp).
Working 8 hours a day, on one sword.
What if you want to equip an army?
Well spears only cost 2 gp, shortspears are 1 gp. So there you go.
Master Craftsman
I mean seriously, what would a level 10 character want with the craft skills, except being sad that he wasted points into them that could have been used for something else?
Its nice and thematic that its there, but its horribly suboptimal compared to casters taking forge magic weapon.
You can't take master craftsman till 5th level. That then gives you the ability to take craft magic arms and armor at 7th. Craft magic arms and armor can be taken at 5th. (so your level 10 character has only been doing this for 3 levels)
Bob the blacksmith blows 2 feats and can craft weapons made with weaponsmithing (since master craftsman is tied to the skill, not the feat). Bob can make his magic sword, but if he wants to make the archers bow too, he has to wait till level 9 and take master craftsman again in Craft: Bowmaking. Merlin the wizard takes the feat once and can make any weapon he wants magical.
Bob the blacksmith and merlin the wizard both use their int scores to help them craft. Guess who's is higher?
Oh, you'll get no argument from me that it's sub-optimal compared to actual mages enhancing weapons or armor. You are completely right on that, but it helps me as a GM not need to make every weaponsmith also a powerful wizard. It also gives somebody who wants it a reason to keep investing skill points in craft skills. Is it the most optimal use of skills? No. It's probably not even a decent choice for most characters. But it does open the archetype of the fighter who makes his own sword or armor without him needing to take levels in a spellcasting class.
No. It's probably not even a decent choice for most characters.
Which i think helps answer the question of who takes this kind of feat. NPC smiths and players who are willing to sacrifice effectiveness for thematics.
Please note i'm NOT a power gamer by any means. I just like it when thematic and usability work together rather than being opposite ends of a spectrum
(seems you can't even take the feat twice to make two different skills worth of weapons)
While I'm not normally one who promotes 3rd party products to circumvent rules, I would like to say that This Rules Supplement by Spes Manga Games is really good for adjusting crafting rules.
Is it a "bit" over powered, maybe, but so long as a player isn't saying "ok, I'll spend all my time crafting and not adventuring" (which would be insanely boring to me) it's not too bad.
Use at your own risk.
While I don't think the feat is super great, I was wondering. Does it allow the crafter to actually do more than an even level wizard with the Craft Magic Armor feat?
It says your ranks in the craft skill count as your caster level.
So you're level 10, now your craft skill can look something like this:
10 + 2 int + 2 from Master Craftsman + 6 Skill Focus + 2 dwarf alternate racial = 22
Now can you make stuff that requires high CL, like a +5 weapon for example, while the wizard is stuck at CL 10?
Or would "ranks" in this case once again mean "the points you spend into it, without any bonus/penalty, maximum your level"?
For the question how to equip an army:
A caster using Fabricate ;3
On the smithing itself. Yes it takes a while. But you have described Mr. Average Joe Smith here, an NPC making a sword without being in a hurry.
If he voluntarily increases the DC (which counts as working faster as 'mdt' has already pointed out) and maybe putting in some overtime (8 hours is what he usually works. But he could work 12 hours too or even more, if the weapon has to be finished quickly. And if the kindom is at the brink of war and the army needs their weapons you bet he will work overtime.) he could cut the time substantially.
Also, if a single item was needed as fast as possible 3 smiths could work in 8 hour shifts on it.
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If a PC would take ranks in craft, he'd have the money to boost his craft skill a lot more. A magical forge, magical tools, buffs from a friendly caster,...
Just think of the rather cheap ring of sustainance (getting a full night sleep in 2 hours). You can work 8 hours, sleep 2 hours, work 8 hours, sleep 2 hours... you don't even need to break for food due to the ring.
He could squeeze 128 hours of worktime into one week instead of the usual 56 hours and still have 8 hours left to do other stuff... okay... he'd go nuts after a while but that is besides the point ^^
And if you make Adamantine weapons and armor, 1/3 of the price does save a lot even at higher levels.
__________
And why would a level 10 character have a craft skill? Spells like minor creation, major creation, fabricate, stonewall and such can benefit from a high craft skill as you can create more complicated objects. Then there is craft(traps) which is powerful if you have time to prepare. So it can be rather helpful.
Also a stonewall that has little cherub-like figures taunting the enemy while you use it as cover is always funny.
It is? O_o ...most warriors don't own a smithy, and have barely enough INT to remember to wipe.
I seriously don't get why warriors should be Big Stupid Fighters.
Expecially seeing that half of the maneuver feats need int 13.
OP: it makes sense an army has not masterwork weapon. In that sense, is fine.
In case of PCs, is another matter entirely. The game allows more than 3.5, but is difficult nevertheless, and players could feel gimped because feats for melee have far more value than for casters IMO.
As said above, the answer I've seen up today is another spell in UM making items masterwork.
I wish for a craft system similar to WOW but I admit it would need a book by his own :(
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Did anyone look into how long it takes to a create a 'masterwork' sword in the real world?
I get that this is fantasy, but so many questions are framed in comparison to how it is in 'the real world' that I think we sometimes forget this is a game.
A real master sword-smith would only make about 4 blades a year... 6 weeks seems like a good deal to me...
We also often think of things only from a PC perspective - how many master blacksmiths exist in Golarion? Someone did the math a while ago about the number of population of X level and it comes as no surprise that there are not a lot of high level folk out there. And how many of them are smiths instead of scholars or adventurers?
Based on that, I would imagine there would even be a waiting list for MW swords to be used by wizards to create magic items from.
I seriously don't get why warriors should be Big Stupid Fighters.<sarc> Because Skinny Smart Fighters don't win the DPR Olympics. </sarc>
:D
I have a problem with associating the value of an item with how hard it is to make and how long it takes to make.
But since changing that would require giving completely new set of stats for every single item (read: a complete overhaul), for something that is rarely ever touched on, is a pointless endeavour.
As a DM, even with a crafting focused player, I'd only set things on case by case basis. It's not worth my time.
Maybe someone will make a book someday.
I seriously don't get why warriors should be Big Stupid Fighters.Because fighters really don't get any abilities that aren't swording people. The problems with Craft are part of this.
Ok, but is not what it should be I think. This was my point.
You can have an human with 4/5 skills/level, but is not for sure exclusive of the class and, as said above, any attempt to go further consumes valuable resources.
I like the way everyone tells me that real armies weren't equipped with mwk weapons when we are talking about a game of medieval fantasy, a genre with armies of dwarves in mithral armor.
Anyway.
I've been doing some more testing with the lvl 6 expert I've started, using his craft(weapons) +15 as a general skill.With an average of 10 per roll, it would take said expert:
-Usually 3 days to make a plain longsword
-6 weeks to build a mwk component for a weapon
-128 weeks to make a CR 8 mechanical trap
-144 weeks(about 3 years!!!) to make a mithral component for a heavy weapon(if said component had a craft DC of 25)
Meanwhile, with the Master Craftsman and Craft Magic Arms and Armor the same expert can make a mwk longsword a +2 mg longsword in 8 days if he succeds the check.
All in all, I have to say the mechanic is broken(not to mention overly complicated), so I've decided to make an alternate system, based on the magic items creation, which appears to be a little more streamlined.The mechanic works as follows.
1.Determine item price.
2.Determine craft DC(Table 4-4 etc.).
3.Duration is 1 day(8 hours) per 50 gp (6 gp 2 sp 5 cp/ hour)
*can be accelerated to 4 hours per 50 gp (12 gp 5 sp/hour) if you add 5 to the DC=>1 day per 100 gp
*can be accelerated to 2 hours per 50 gp (25 gp/hour) if you add 10 to the DC=>1 day per 200 gp
*etc.
*While out adventuring, if crafting of the item is possible(DM discretion), work takes 4hours/day, but only 2 count=>Duration is 1 day(4/2 hours) per 12 gp 5 sp
4.Pay 1/2 of the cost of the item for raw materials.
5.At the end of the duration, roll skill check vs noted Craft DC to determine if the character has managed to construct the item.If he failed by 4 or less, he may retry, if he failed by 5 or more, the raw materials are ruined.
(Option):For every 5 that the character beats the DC, halve the duration by one increment(e.g. +5 => 4 hours, +10 => 2 hours etc.).For every 5 that the character fails the DC, also halve the duration to determine when he ruins the materials.
Please note that this while this option requires the character to roll before the actual construction of the item, however, it eliminates the need to add to the Craft DC beforehand, therefore simplifying the mechanic(I'll probably go with this option in the end.)
With this mechanic, the same expert can(without modifying the duration by adding to the DC):
-craft a longsword in one day
-craft a mwk component for a weapon in 6 days
-craft a CR 8 mechanical trap in 80 days.
-craft a mithral component for heavy armor in 90 days.
Yes, it's not perfect, but it's less broken that the original mechanic, imported unchanged from 3.5.
The entire duration depends on the value in bold, which can be modified(if the durations are too short for you, consider making it 10).I would like to hear you input on that value, any any other points in this mechanic.
Thank you for reading and thanks in advance on any advice.
I would argue that whether it is suboptimal or not depends on how you're viewing it.
If item creation is hands-down your goal, then yes, Fighter with Master Craftsman is the wrong choice.
On the other hand, I think the average player is approaching this from: "I have decided to play a Fighter. I would also like to fight well and make magic items." In that case, I think it's rather competitive.
The costs are high, yes. You need the two feats minimum and a skill investment. On the other hand, even though those feats are taking away from combat-related feats, they're also greatly enhancing the worth of your magic items. How much of a cost would a person normally put on eventually doubling their character wealth, after all?
Is my position biased? Yes. I'm running Kingmaker, pretty much The AP for magic item creation. Still, an argument that the feat is underpowered seems a little ... valueless to me, similar to arguments that Weapon Focus is underpowered for making wizards fight well because they don't do it as well as fighters.
I like the way everyone tells me that real armies weren't equipped with mwk weapons when we are talking about a game of medieval fantasy, a genre with armies of dwarves in mithral armor.
A) If you don't want responses, then don't post a question.
B) Every book I've ever read had tons of guys in normal armor, and heroes in unusual armor. Every hobit in LoTR did not have mithral armor. Gimli didn't have Mithral Armor. The dead dwarves in the dwarven halls didn't have Mithral Armor. The Belgariad had thousands of warriors using plain old steel weapons and armor, only Belgarion and his family had big nasty weapons/abilities. Arthurian legends hold Excalibur to be the exception, and all the other people ran around in steel plate and with steel weapons. Actually, I can't think of a single fantasy novel/setting where there are vast hordes of mithral wearing dwarves making up the bulk of vast armies.
A) If you don't want responses, then don't post a question.
I love responses, the help me better my game. I just don't like the ones that tell me that you can't build a full plate armor because the forging technology available in the middle ages wasn't up to the task, while blatantly ignoring the fact that the creature wearing said armor is an orc. Same situation with the airships: the middle ages didn't have them, and yet some D&D settings include them.
Comparisons to real medieval times shouldn't hamper your game setting, it should enhance them. If everything should be done by the book, your usual dungeon crawling sewers would be non-existent, hygiene would be absolutely atrocious, and a character would probably die after the first arrow/blade hit they took, especially when a healer started throwing some leeches on the wound, and magic creatures, equipment and spells wouldn't exist.
It's a make up game, after all.If you want to create an army of tougher, CR 1 soldiers(lvl 3 warriors, 780 gp gear) with mwk swords, why limit your imagination because of real world comparisons?
B) Every book I've ever read had tons of guys in normal armor, and heroes in unusual armor. Every hobit in LoTR did not have mithral armor. Gimli didn't have Mithral Armor. The dead dwarves in the dwarven halls didn't have Mithral Armor. The Belgariad had thousands of warriors using plain old steel weapons and armor, only Belgarion and his family had big nasty weapons/abilities. Arthurian legends hold Excalibur to be the exception, and all the other people ran around in steel plate and with steel weapons. Actually, I can't think of a single fantasy novel/setting where there are vast hordes of mithral wearing dwarves making up the bulk of vast armies.
Off the top of my head, King Rhobar from the Gothic PC game series was trying to equip his army with magic ore items. He had a little trouble with the supply, it's true, but the problem in equipping his army was definitely not the forging.
Also, note that mithral/mithril was extremely scarce by the Third Age(Lotr).Even so, the The Guards of the Minas Tirith wore helmets of mithril.If humans could have enough of them to arm a small army protecting a city, you can bet that in an earlier age when the material was more abundant someone equipped an army.
For more often that not, lack of material is the problem, not forging it.However, the mountains in your setting might contain an absurd amount of mithral. During war, smiths could be given a choice: Serve in the army or make equipment for free, with the materials provided by the king.
My two cents.In any case, I've gotten my answer, and I've determined that the craft mechanic isn't balanced.Hence the new system.
Thanks for all the replies, and sorry if I seemed snide or anything like that, it was not my intention.
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The costs are high, yes. You need the two feats minimum and a skill investment. On the other hand, even though those feats are taking away from combat-related feats, they're also greatly enhancing the worth of your magic items. How much of a cost would a person normally put on eventually doubling their character wealth, after all?I've still never actually met anyone who treats item creation feats as a route to free doubled WBL. I'm pretty sure that phenomenon is limited to the Paizo boards.
Being a faithful follower is WBL is limited to the Paizo boards.
What is important is that making your own weapons/armours allow you to pick and chose what they do, which enhancement they will have, what material and so on.
Same thing for miscellaneous magic items.
Building a +1, arcane caster bane*, holy, adamantine falchion that the friendly cleric/wizard will routinely enchant to +5 every morning is way better than using the high level BEEG mithril +4 dancing, icy burst rapier even if, in theory, the falchion is way less powerful than the rapier.
*thankfully that power has been removed with Pathfinder and I hope it will never return.
About building stuff: some of the rules work badly as the cost of the item isn't always a good indicator of the difficulty to build it but changing the rules in a way that will make it too easy will make the game economy totally unbelievable.
Frostsong was suggesting a "production speed" of 6 gp/hour.
Lets suppose our smith work only 5 days every week with a regular 8 hours work schedule. 40 hours week.
1/3 of what he get from sales is production cost, so he get a net profit of 4 gp/hour, 160 gp week, 640 gp month.
Maybe not "adventurer level" but he has a nice profit.
If he is more true to a medieval smith, working 10 hours (or more) each day for 6 days/week he get about 1.000 gp each month of disposable income. About 50.000 € month if you use the rough conversion rate my group use.
I would say most crafter would be very rich people if they can get that kind of money with some regularity.
About building stuff: some of the rules work badly as the cost of the item isn't always a good indicator of the difficulty to build it but changing the rules in a way that will make it too easy will make the game economy totally unbelievable.
Frostsong was suggesting a "production speed" of 6 gp/hour.
Lets suppose our smith work only 5 days every week with a regular 8 hours work schedule. 40 hours week.
1/3 of what he get from sales is production cost, so he get a net profit of 4 gp/hour, 160 gp week, 640 gp month.
Maybe not "adventurer level" but he has a nice profit.If he is more true to a medieval smith, working 10 hours (or more) each day for 6 days/week he get about 1.000 gp each month of disposable income. About 50.000 € month if you use the rough conversion rate my group use. ...
That's assuming he gets an order of 25 longwords/week, the forge holds, and you don't implement any fatigue rules from working on the forge 10 hours a day, which is probably no easy feat.
Afterwards there's a sales tax(might be 20% in some places, but I might be wrong), maybe a mortgage/rent or property taxes, raw material transport tax(we're talking metal here, perhaps some of it unrefined), bandit raids, bribes and the occasional fumble.
Keep in mind that a 6th level expert begins with 3,450 gp.
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That's assuming he gets an order of 25 longwords/week, the forge holds, and you don't implement any fatigue rules from working on the forge 10 hours a day, which is probably no easy feat.Afterwards there's a sales tax(might be 20% in some places, but I might be wrong), maybe a mortgage/rent or property taxes, raw material transport tax(we're talking metal here, perhaps some of it unrefined), bandit raids, bribes and the occasional fumble.
Keep in mind that a 6th level expert begins with 3,450 gp.
Breaking the system and then trying to put a patch on it?
"That's assuming he gets an order of 25 longwords/week,"
You system allow him to make 50 GP of anything in 8 hours. So he only need enough weapons (of any kind) orders to fill his work days.
"the forge holds"
This is a new one. Stuff become worn in a D&D game?
Even if you implement that, pay maintenance fees and your forge keep ticking on. It will only spread the money around a bit.
"you don't implement any fatigue rules from working on the forge 10 hours a day, which is probably no easy feat."
Sorry, but 10 hours or longer work days were the norm during the middle ages and renaissance.
for a smith working 10 hours at the forge was the norm, not the exception.
"Afterwards there's a sales tax(might be 20% in some places, but I might be wrong)"
No VAT tax in the middle ages. You had a custom tax when binging stuff into a city (and in the corrupted Byzantium it was around 10%) but only if importing from outside the city.
During the middle ages you had property taxes and "businesses" taxes, generally they were fixed costs based on your business surfaces and kind.
"raw material transport tax(we're talking metal here, perhaps some of it unrefined),"
Already included in the material you must consume to produce the stuff you make.
"bandit raids,"
Most smiths shop was within the city walls. Especially weaponsmith.
"bribes"
Sure. To your guild.
"The occasional fumble"
Seriously? You can take 10 when you forge stuff.
"Keep in mind that a 6th level expert begins with 3,450 gp."
And so? Even pricing them very high a forge and tools will cost 500 gp at most.
Your problem is that you are trying to fix the system to work for adventurers, but doing that you break it for the NPC.
If you want to keep some level of consistency making normal and masterwork stuff will require time.
There is no way to circumvent that (without the use of magic) and keep the normal balance for the NPC.
What you can do (and it will be a bit more adherent to reality) is to have people benefit for several helpers.
While the master is hammering the sword the apprentice is stroking the furnace, preparing the quenching liquid, doing the first part of the sharpening process. The more expert aides will be doing the first part of the job and so on.
Doing it that way you can use the aid another rules to increase the die roll of the master weaponsmith and allow him a higher output without unduly increasing his income. He has to pay the helpers, and while a apprentice will be an almost negligible expense, the more expert guys will require an higher pay.
If you want, at this point, you can add a house rule where the helpers give a reduction in production time beside the simple modifier to the die roll.
It is better if it is less than proportional to the number of helpers, but it can still give a significant increase in production speed.
Another helpful houserule would be to link the production time not to the gold value of the produced item but to the difficulty to craft it.
It will require some internet search to find appropriate production times for the different items, but it would be more accurate than the current system.
First the difference in magic crafting and normal crafting is just that magical crafting is magic no labor involved.
Second anyone who doesnt see the need in the craft skills when they can just buy the item IMHO misses the whole concept of backstory to a character.
Third even if fantasy armies however few had all masterwork or better gear it didnt happen at once remember most places armies didnt get to keep the gear they were assigned when they went home.
Third even if fantasy armies however few had all masterwork or better gear it didnt happen at once remember most places armies didnt get to keep the gear they were assigned when they went home.
This is about the only way an army can have all MW equipment and be believable. The situation would be the army was 20,000 strong, and 5,000 of them were elite and had MW equipment.
Then, after the war, the army was drawn down to 7,000. 5,000 of them regular troops, and 2,000 part timers. The full soldiers all get the MW equipment from the war, the 2,000 part timers draw their gear from the armory when they are on duty. The rest of the army's equipment was melted down for wagon wheels, plows, torch sconces, whatever.
It really surprises you that so many dwarves would have mithril armor, considering the stuff takes only a measly three years to make? Three years? Most dwarves have had hangovers longer than that!
You humans and your ridiculous impatience. If you want your forging done right, get a rock-solid race to do it. Hollow-headed flighty city-dwelling dragon-fodder farmers...
The Craft rules have been causing headaches since 3.0.
One houserule that can make it less cumbersome: for special materials that are automatically considered masterwork (adamantine, darkwood, dragonhide, mithral), the additional cost for the material does not add to the item creation time (basically applying similar rules as dragonhide for other substances). The crafter still has to pay the cost of the raw materials (can't make an adamantine sword without adamantine, after all), but only counts the normal item + masterwork component for crafting time. GMs may also want to apply an ad hoc +2 to the item Craft DC for working with the special material.
Note that alchemical silver and cold iron would still add to the crafting time. However, they require special techniques and don't add large amounts to the price of the item.
Thank you I've been wondering about that