To all my fellow GMs out there, I have a challenge.
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(pssst.... Venomblade, you can stop reading right here! everyone else, continue on)
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I am running a high-level game. All the PCs just hit level 16. One of them, a barbarian of great strength, has just taken the "come and get me" rage power.
How do I compete with this? It is unbelievably good. At level 16 he has four attacks a round. With combat reflexes and a high dexterity modifier this engine of destruction will have 12 attacks around. Nine of these will be at his highest attack bonus for the AoOs!!!
Without getting into details, his AVERAGE damage, when he gets to make all of those attacks, is OVER 500 points a round. Granted, the iterative attacks (3 of the 12) may not hit but odds are the other 9 will. He has a scimitar-type of weapon so he'll be critting on 15-20 so I'm figuring every 4th attack is a crit. Anyway, this post isn't to argue about his damage, just how to game around it, with it, through it, etc.
There is nothing in melee that can compete with that!
I seek suggestions on how to challenge this player. He will clearly mow through most fights but I'd like to challenge him every once in a while.
Suggestions please!
Right now I'm thinking something that does dex damage or strength damage but that sucks if that's my only weapon against him. That should be used rarely, besides his fortitude save is sky high.
-Bloodwort
Come and Get Me (Ex): While raging, as a free action the barbarian may leave herself open to attack while preparing devastating counterattacks. Enemies gain a +4 bonus on attack and damage rolls against the barbarian until the beginning of her next turn, but every attack against the barbarian provokes an attack of opportunity from her, which is resolved prior to resolving each enemy attack. A barbarian must be at least 12th level to select this rage power.
Reach weapons.
oozes that deal damage to the weapon. see how long he wants to keep swinging
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Wait... He has a DEX mod of +8?
Anyway, how about he has to fight enemies he can't get to right away, like archers behind arrow slits in a fortress wall, or an invisible spellcaster throwing fireballs and whatnot at him? Also, attack his mind, with things that can disable/debilitate him on a failed Will save.
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Throw a group of Greater Shadows at them. This will negate the critical hits due to being incorporeal, will cause even his normal hits to be lessened by 50% unless he has some way to get around that, and on top of all that the barbarian will be taking 1d8+4 strength damage every time it gets hit with the creatures touch attack. Since the damage is rolled this bonus applies here, as it does not state otherwise like some other abilities.
After the first hit, the barbarian will start to panic having took a minimum of 5 strength damage on the counterattack he has to contend with the 50% miss chance to attack the shadow.
I guarantee if you played the creature against him (Which at this point the party should have SEVERAL enemies capable of conjuring, binding, or contracting such beings) he would very likely die to any more than 1 of these things.
Reach weapons.
+1 if his reach is 5ft he isn't making attacks on anything with 10ft reach
caster casts grease on his weapon. reflex save everytime he uses the weapon or it goes flying out of his hand
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You know, I have to say that the Pathfinder community is pretty awesome. It's only been 20 minutes and you've already given me some fun ideas.
Keep them coming! This barbarian is going to be around a long time.
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Keep in mind that if he's 16th level, his enemies should be appropriate to that level. Have the party ambushed by a group that includes a 16th level sorcerer, with access to things like Power Word Stun or some other similar effect - even a cleric with Hold Person. Then start shooting his face off from the trees. He'll be half dead before he's even able to go after his attackers.
caster casts grease on his weapon. reflex save everytime he uses the weapon or it goes flying out of his hand
That is a legal tactic, but be aware that you roll once per round that you use the greased weapon. That means that i full attack for 5 attacks and i make my save i don't have to save again for that round.
Hand him a dose of his own medicine via a mirror of opposition. Add in explosion-on-death curse. Watch the giblets fly!
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Dispelling his favorite toys will always add some tension. The look of horror on my player's face when he realized going toe-to-toe with an aspect of a demon lord is a bad idea was priceless.
Baddy with access to Unwilling Shield (via custom amulet) from APG would split all the damage he deals (half to target NPC, half to barbarian).
Slow is always useful
Charm/Hold Monster ("My engine of destruction!")
Mirror of Opposition ("I'd like a copy of your character sheet please!")
Etc.
EDIT: Ninja'd on the mirror.
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Marilith CR 17
Held action Cast Blade Barrier spliting the party.
Round 1 Teleport to the area you want to be in.
Round 2 one attack disarm (CMB26) the sucker. Then with 8 attacks long swords(+24/19/14/9)(2D8+8)4(+24)(2D8+4), one tail slap(2D6+3) and grab(CMB 28). All at reach with no way to reach the Marilith the AoO are useless.
Round 3 same as one unless he is still grapled or disarmed. Constrict (2D6+10+Crushing Coils)
And they have good SR, saves, resistances, and immunitys.
If you want to be realy crule advance her HD by 4(New CR 19). Thus incressing her size to huge given her 15ft reach natural.
My players realy do hate me for some of the stuff I come up with.
leo1925 said: That is a legal tactic, but be aware that you roll once per round that you use the greased weapon. That means that i full attack for 5 attacks and i make my save i don't have to save again for that round.
true. heightened persistent grease? i know there are better uses for a higher level spell slot, but the idea of a greased weapon flying out of your hand at a critical moment is just kinda funny.
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caster casts grease on his weapon. reflex save everytime he uses the weapon or it goes flying out of his handThat is a legal tactic, but be aware that you roll once per round that you use the greased weapon. That means that i full attack for 5 attacks and i make my save i don't have to save again for that round.
Then go the less-magical route and have a 16th-level fighter jump out at him with a +2 Ranseur, Improved and Greater Disarm, and roll approximately 1d20+30 vs the barbarian's CMD to send his weapon flying 15 feet in a random direction... from reach. Maybe add a compatriot or three with whips to trip him when he tries to go get it.
I dunno, maybe throw a 16th level melee optimized barbarian at him?
All of the suggestions here are good. Anything that can absorb a ton of damage (adamantine golem, perhaps?) While dealing out massive damage should soften him up. I like disarming PCs like that. Blind, stun, daze, there are lots of effects that can reduce his effectiveness.
In general I would give a PC like this a pile of minions to wade through so that the player can revel in his melee awesomeness while the rest of the party deals with the rest of the encounter. That keeps everyone happy and makes a great visual and story. Just keep in mind that you don't have to DEFEAT him, you just have to get him engaged with something or some things. Let him feel like a hairy toed god of battle while the real battle is happening on the side of the room he has to carve a path to reach.
Will Saves are your friend.
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Burning Disarm. Repeatedly.
ice golems or some other baddie that explodes when they die
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OP: people suggested maneuvers and will saves. Did the player choose Superstition and Strenght Surge as additional rage powers? If not, use them expecially will save. Other ideas could be stuff like pits and forcecage (but see above).
If yes, let me laugh a little bit more at people saying how underpowered barbarians are after APG.
quicklings. lots and lots of quicklings. with spring attack and poisoned short swords (wyvern poison or something)
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I am loving some of these suggestions, folks. Nice job. keep them coming. he's only level 16 now. I've got to be able to challenge him for the next few levels and do not want to use the same tactic over and over.
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@LazarX, he has so many attacks because of the barbarian rage power "come and get me" and combat reflexes and a high dex bonus.
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@Alexander, you bring up an EXCELLENT point. I do let him shine quite a bit in combat. However, I do NOT want him to dominate the game, which can easily happen. I would love suggestions on different encounters that down play combat. I'll admit I'm not the best at designing roleplaying encounters. I've got a few ideas where the rogue can shine but I'm open to suggestions.
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Not to worry though. There is plenty of combat and he is awesome at it. I'm not worried about the barbarian having fun. he gets to shine all the time. I do want the other party members to have their time in the sun.
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Make a tribe of barbarians who have developed the feat You Can't Hit Me, which counters this feat using feinting, misdirection, or whatnot.
Seriously, if this is a barbarian ability, it stands to reason that other tribes who fight barbarians all the time would have developed a counter. Obviously you wouldn't want to use this all the time, but during a single battle, it might surprise him to find out it doesnt work...
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Lots of good advice, but also...
why not let him just be crazy good? At least some of the time.
Upthread there are plenty of iconic barbarian weaknesses you may exploit, but sometimes an unstoppable barbarian is good for the story. The player obviously wants to be a machine of death.
Switch it up a bit, give the party problems that can't be solved with death-machine alone. Then, fairly often, throw waves of dudes at the, and watch the barbarian have fun. Employ enough of the tricks from this thread to keep it interesting for his friends.
But sometimes, having an effective PC just isn't cause for direct punishment!
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Longbow.
Yep. Stock elven ranger with hatred humans (or whatever the guy is) will take his ass apart. Or, to roll it up into a ball of pint-sized fury, a halfling archer who's rang6/rogu10 (if CR be the same) who bombards from concealment and moves after each shot (when necessary).
Aside from that, any concept which denies full-attacks to opponents.
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Interesting ideas here.
How about the real cheap & easy way:
A really big hole.
Party gets into fight with BBEG.
BBEG throws "the switch" which drops floor out from under party.
Minor falling damage, perhaps some environmental effects (glass floor floating on pool of magma, anyone?), but the big trick is to simply provide distance between Target and Death-Machine.
Then, swarm them with low CR foes. Like Fire Giants or Intellect Devourers
The Whirling-Death-Machine has a choice: accept fly spells (or similar) from the party to get out, or stay in his fiery arena and bash on monsters till they stop leaking goo.
I think you know the answer to that choice, already.
Death-Machine PC gets to have fun slaying tons of baddies, while party needs to figure out how to get out and stop/capture/slay the BBEG before his nefarious plans come to fruition.
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@ Evil Lincoln, I understand your sentiment. Thankfully he is having fun. The barbarian gets to rampage through crowds of bad guys all the time. He is very good at it. I'm just looking to shake things up a little bit.
Can be as simple as setting a swarm on him. A swarm of Fine or Diminuitive creatures is immune to weapon damage.
Trap door spiders or anything with 15 ft reach. Let him provoke AoOs due to moving closer :-) or for monsters with class, phalanx with defenders in the front line.