YES! I agree with you 100 percent!I would like for designers intent to be known. I might houserule it anyway, but I should still know the intent. I prefer precise rules to avoid players arguing over rules. I have sat in with groups and ever games with them again. This might occur if I am at an FLGS, and a player does a no call no show. I am asked to quickly make a character.
My belief is this. If you are going to write the rule then define(explain it clearly) the rule. If you don't want to make it clear then label it as as a suggestion.
I thought the intent of the less wordy approach was space, but in any event I think it is clear people want rulings, not suggestions.
I always want to know what the rule actually was intended, clearly, so I can know whether I am house ruling or not. Why? Because I have a 6 page handout I give to players with house rules on it, so they understand what is and is not expected.
I always want to know what the rule actually was intended, clearly, so I can know whether I am house ruling or not. Why? Because I have a 6 page handout I give to players with house rules on it, so they understand what is and is not expected.
And there you have it...if the rules aren't clear for the players they get EXTREMELY frustrated and feel like I the GM am jerking them around when I say 'I am not sure what the rulebook means in that passage, so I will have to rule that it means such and such'. If my ruling doesn't jive with what they want it can get tense for a minute. Ultimately I have a great group that I game with, but I would like to know the EXACT intent of every rule so that I can make a call to either use it RAW or Houserule to better suite our needs.
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On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
[Geoffrey Rush voice on]
And thirdly, the Core Rulebook is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules.
[Geoffrey Rush voice off]
LOL
On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
I disagre with this whole heartedly. This creates arguments among the players. I will spare you my take on how attorneys exploit vague laws for profit and fun.
On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
Which is fine for you. It means you are willing to accept that you paid $50, $100, $300 for RPG books that are unclear, or have odd interactions with no guidance on how to use bits of them together. White Wolf did this constantly with their different lines and it almost put the company out of business. How did they fix it? They fired everyone except for one team, put that team to work on all the different lines, and made sure the rules were internally consistent and rebooted the system to get rid of the garbage.
It's cost them a lot of time, effort, and good will to do it. I've stopped running WW games, thanks to that.
In any case, while you are satisfied paying your hard earned $$$ for vagueness, I prefer clarity if I'm paying my hard earned $$$. I prefer to buy something that's not missing basic components (such as spell components, ironically enough). I prefer to buy something that doesn't have spells listed which aren't in the actual book. I prefer to buy something with archetypes who's substitutions make internal sense.
Finally, your willingness to spend $$$ on something that has clarity/completeness/consistency issues in no way affects my rights as a customer to complain if I get something that is muddled/incomplete/inconsistent.
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I disagre with this whole heartedly. This creates arguments among the players. I will spare you my take on how attorneys exploit vague laws for profit and fun.On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
I don't care about arguments among the players. I'm the God...I mean I'm the boss...sorry, I'm the GM.
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On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
Which is fine for you. It means you are willing to accept that you paid $50, $100, $300 for RPG books that are unclear, or have odd interactions with no guidance on how to use bits of them together. White Wolf did this constantly with their different lines and it almost put the company out of business. How did they fix it? They fired everyone except for one team, put that team to work on all the different lines, and made sure the rules were internally consistent and rebooted the system to get rid of the garbage.
It's cost them a lot of time, effort, and good will to do it. I've stopped running WW games, thanks to that.
In any case, while you are satisfied paying your hard earned $$$ for vagueness, I prefer clarity if I'm paying my hard earned $$$. I prefer to buy something that's not missing basic components (such as spell components, ironically enough). I prefer to buy something that doesn't have spells listed which aren't in the actual book. I prefer to buy something with archetypes who's substitutions make internal sense.
Finally, your willingness to spend $$$ on something that has clarity/completeness/consistency issues in no way affects my rights as a customer to complain if I get something that is muddled/incomplete/inconsistent.
The rules are free.
I'm spending my $$$ on a nicely bound book that makes the rules easy to carry around.
I'm always very careful when raging over free things.
That's why AP/setting material falls under my scrutiny ten times as much as the rules do. Because the rules are free.
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I don't care about arguments among the players. I'm the God...I mean I'm the boss...sorry, I'm the GM.I disagre with this whole heartedly. This creates arguments among the players. I will spare you my take on how attorneys exploit vague laws for profit and fun.On a more serious note:
RPG rules are like laws. There are strict, concrete definitions and there are areas that are intentionally left not precise to allow for discretion of whoever does apply the law. UK law doesn't have a definition of "murder", yet it somewhat functions.
I have no problems with rules that are vague, I just apply my own understanding of them.
Settle arguments...LIKE A BOSS!
The rules are free.I'm spending my $$$ on a nicely bound book that makes the rules easy to carry around.
I'm always very careful when raging over free things.
That's why AP/setting material falls under my scrutiny ten times as much as the rules do. Because the rules are free.
Ah, so, what you are saying is, we who are unhappy with some aspect of Paizo's latest product should just stop buying their products at all.
Ok, I can understand that argument. I think you will be unhappy if we do. As they will soon have to lay off everyone and stop producing anything. But, hey, let's all follow Gorbacz's advice and cancel our subscriptions and stop purchasing books, since we can get the rules for free.
Settle arguments...LIKE A BOSS!
I don't care about arguments among the players. I'm the God...I mean I'm the boss...sorry, I'm the GM.
So your position is that if the rulebook creates confusion at your game table then you as the GM just make a ruling and everyone needs to suck it up and be happy with it? Sadly this has been the case at my game table and if it keeps up I am afraid my players will want to quit Pathfinder and return to Gurps.
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The rules are free.I'm spending my $$$ on a nicely bound book that makes the rules easy to carry around.
I'm always very careful when raging over free things.
That's why AP/setting material falls under my scrutiny ten times as much as the rules do. Because the rules are free.
Ah, so, what you are saying is, we who are unhappy with some aspect of Paizo's latest product should just stop buying their products at all.
Ok, I can understand that argument. I think you will be unhappy if we do. As they will soon have to lay off everyone and stop producing anything. But, hey, let's all follow Gorbacz's advice and cancel our subscriptions and stop purchasing books, since we can get the rules for free.
Hyperboles are sooooo 2000.
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So your position is that if the rulebook creates confusion at your game table then you as the GM just make a ruling and everyone needs to suck it up and be happy with it? Sadly this has been the case at my game table and if it keeps up I am afraid my players will want to quit Pathfinder and return to Gurps.Settle arguments...LIKE A BOSS!
I don't care about arguments among the players. I'm the God...I mean I'm the boss...sorry, I'm the GM.
Yes, that's the job of GM since let's think, 1978 or so. Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.
And if you're holding GURPS as an example of clarity and ease of use, well, I dunno. Could be worse, you could argue that Palladium systems are pinnacles of transparent design...
Yes, that's the job of GM since let's think, 1978 or so. Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.And if you're holding GURPS as an example of clarity and ease of use, well, I dunno. Could be worse, you could argue that Palladium systems are pinnacles of transparent design...
Using this logic we should never improve any game system...just be happy with unclear systems and move on. I don't subscribe to this. I am not sure why you are even posting in this thread.
Hyperboles are sooooo 2000.
This was productive...how?
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Using this logic we should never improve any game system...just be happy with unclear systems and move on. I don't subscribe to this. I am not sure why you are even posting in this thread.
Yes, that's the job of GM since let's think, 1978 or so. Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.And if you're holding GURPS as an example of clarity and ease of use, well, I dunno. Could be worse, you could argue that Palladium systems are pinnacles of transparent design...
Why? Because people keep responding to my posts when they should just ignore me :)
I am not sure why you are even posting in this thread.Cause it's FUN! :D
So your definition of FUN is being a negative/sarcastic person on forum threads of customers who have real concerns and want to improve their beloved product lines?
Why? Because people keep responding to my posts when they should just ignore me :)
Why doesn't PAIZO ban you from posting here as you have a history of being a donkeys rear end.
Having spent the last 5 months working on the Beginner Box, I agree that in general, much of the Core Rulebook is overly wordy and could be written in a more clear and concise manner.
This. There are also some pretty severe organizational snafus.
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So your definition of FUN is being a negative/sarcastic person on forum threads of customers who have real concerns and want to improve their beloved product lines?I am not sure why you are even posting in this thread.Cause it's FUN! :D
You obviously haven't met TOZ before, lol.
In any case, Paizo is doing a good job, in my opinion.
I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)
I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
What is sarcastic IRL? My point is that people have no idea who they are talking to on these forums and need to be a bit more civil about their exchange of ideas....because I know they wouldn't act like this in person to me....and it sounds like you as well.
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What is sarcastic IRL? My point is that people have no idea who they are talking to on these forums and need to be a bit more civil about their exchange of ideas....because I know they wouldn't act like this in person to me....and it sounds like you as well.I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
I never thought I'll see a "you wouldn't be that smartass around me because I'm big and heavy" argument again, but alas, it's still alive.
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What is sarcastic IRL? My point is that people have no idea who they are talking to on these forums and need to be a bit more civil about their exchange of ideas....because I know they wouldn't act like this in person to me....and it sounds like you as well.I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
IRL = In Real Life
Generally, I am very civil, but I can be goofy and very sarcastic at times too. Don't presume to know me.
@Gorbacz - I was surprised too..
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I still say the best way to fight mistakes that will always happen no matter how many people you throw at a book is to address the problems that are in the book as soon as possible not when the next print comes out.
No matter what you guys say we are not going to get a 100% error free book, what we can do is Try to convince Paizo that the FAQ is a High priority and should not be put on the Back Burner any longer and that the Erratas need to be a living document that come out shortly after a book release not months or a year later when they put the next printing out.
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I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
I just want to point out, I may not know how to press assault charges, but I can find out! :)
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I just want to point out, I may not know how to press assault charges, but I can find out! :)I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
I just want to point out.. I love lamp. =)
What is sarcastic IRL? My point is that people have no idea who they are talking to on these forums and need to be a bit more civil about their exchange of ideas....because I know they wouldn't act like this in person to me....and it sounds like you as well.I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)Just want to point out, that I am, in fact, sarcastic IRL. And taller, and heavier.. not that it has anything to do with anything..
NSFW language, but I think this sums it up pretty well.
Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.
Rules like "stun, no save" are not in the "GM interpretation" field. Are in the "unambigously bad rule". Are forced houserule field.
The more a book needs immediately houserules, the more I think I can do by myself. The less, then, I'm likely to buy other products.
If you really can get this Gorbacz, I don't know what to say.
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Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.
Rules like "stun, no save" are not in the "GM interpretation" field. Are in the "unambigously bad rule". Are forced houserule field.
The more a book needs immediately houserules, the more I think I can do by myself. The less, then, I'm likely to buy other products.
If you really can get this Gorbacz, I don't know what to say.
You have an issue with Power Word Stun? You're late by some 8 years. Again, you're trying to pass "rules I don't like" as "bad editing".
You have an issue with Power Word Stun? You're late by some 8 years. Again, you're trying to pass "rules I don't like" as "bad editing".Interpreting existing rules and coming up with solutions for situations not covered by the rules.
Rules like "stun, no save" are not in the "GM interpretation" field. Are in the "unambigously bad rule". Are forced houserule field.
The more a book needs immediately houserules, the more I think I can do by myself. The less, then, I'm likely to buy other products.
If you really can get this Gorbacz, I don't know what to say.
There are issue in core still. But increase them is ridiculous. Moreover, the spell has at least the HP requirement. I remember the playtest gunslinger with a "lol ur stunned" attack. Hopefully pointed out in time.
Ok, I wait and see. Waiting for UC.
I still say the best way to fight mistakes that will always happen no matter how many people you throw at a book is to address the problems that are in the book as soon as possible not when the next print comes out.
In the interim, why not compile a fan compandium of errata.
We used to do that at Necro. Each product forum had an errata thread. Fans posted it as they found it.
Why dont you start that? Maybe Paizo can even sticky a fan errata thread in that forum. Not a gripe thread, or a this is broken thread, but an actual thread that lists or identifies mistakes and proposed fixes.
I never thought I'll see a "you wouldn't be that smartass around me because I'm big and heavy" argument again, but alas, it's still alive.
Lets put this argument to the test...when would you like to meet? Do you ever go to Conventions?
I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)
I would. In fact, I'm more sarcastic to people who are trying to be threatening. Because I'm 197 cm and don't believe in oppression. Also, I know kung fu.
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Lets put this argument to the test...when would you like to meet? Do you ever go to Conventions?
I never thought I'll see a "you wouldn't be that smartass around me because I'm big and heavy" argument again, but alas, it's still alive.
Looks at the map.
Well, the middle road between the US and my place is ... somewhere ... in the middle of Atlantic Ocean. Are you a good swimmer?
In the interim, why not compile a fan compandium of errata.
We used to do that at Necro. Each product forum had an errata thread. Fans posted it as they found it.
Why dont you start that? Maybe Paizo can even sticky a fan errata thread in that forum. Not a gripe thread, or a this is broken thread, but an actual thread that lists or identifies mistakes and proposed fixes.
I'm pretty sure that happens here. Doesn't Charles Evans do a lot of the work on those?
In the interim, why not compile a fan compandium of errata.
This would be a great start and I would participate.
I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)I would. In fact, I'm more sarcastic to people who are trying to be threatening. Because I'm 197 cm and don't believe in oppression. Also, I know kung fu.
No one is trying to threaten anyone....just pointing out the facts of anonymous forum behavior versus real life.
Lets put this argument to the test...when would you like to meet? Do you ever go to Conventions?
I never thought I'll see a "you wouldn't be that smartass around me because I'm big and heavy" argument again, but alas, it's still alive.Looks at the map.
Well, the middle road between the US and my place is ... somewhere ... in the middle of Atlantic Ocean. Are you a good swimmer?
I know how to book a flight.
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No one is trying to threaten anyone....just pointing out the facts of anonymous forum behavior versus real life.I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)I would. In fact, I'm more sarcastic to people who are trying to be threatening. Because I'm 197 cm and don't believe in oppression. Also, I know kung fu.
I'm not anonymous, my real life name is in my profile. Is yours? *checks* nope.
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No one is trying to threaten anyone....just pointing out the facts of anonymous forum behavior versus real life.I don't think a lot of you would be so sarcastic face to face. I am 6ft 210lbs and I know how to perform a rear naked choke :-)I would. In fact, I'm more sarcastic to people who are trying to be threatening. Because I'm 197 cm and don't believe in oppression. Also, I know kung fu.
So if I were just as sarcastic in real life as on the forum...what would happen?