The dervish dance feat requires the weapon finesse feat as a prerequisite.
Since you can't take weapon finesse with a scimitar, are we to assume that the finesse feat applies to another weapon?
Weapon finesse is no longer weapon specific, you take it once and it applies to all applicable weapons.
Understood. Then it doesn't apply to the scimitar until you take the DD feat.
Weapon finesse is no longer weapon specific, you take it once and it applies to all applicable weapons.
It doesn't list scimitar in the feat. Thats an odd prerequisite then.
It is my understanding that Dervish Dance allows you to use weapon finesse with a scimitar.
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Dervish dance does not allow you to use weapon finesse with a scimitar... but it removes the need to do so. It specifically says "When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls." So it doesn't allow you to finesse a scimitar (which would imply that you could then do so even if you didn't meet the conditions for the rest of the feat), but it gives you the effect of finessing a scimitar when you do meet those conditions.
Dervish dance does not allow you to use weapon finesse with a scimitar... but it removes the need to do so. It specifically says "When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls." So it doesn't allow you to finesse a scimitar (which would imply that you could then do so even if you didn't meet the conditions for the rest of the feat), but it gives you the effect of finessing a scimitar when you do meet those conditions.
An interesting and I think good distinction. Kinda like you can only do it while dancing or something.
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Dervish dance does not allow you to use weapon finesse with a scimitar... but it removes the need to do so. It specifically says "When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls." So it doesn't allow you to finesse a scimitar (which would imply that you could then do so even if you didn't meet the conditions for the rest of the feat), but it gives you the effect of finessing a scimitar when you do meet those conditions.
Keep in mind that Weapon Finesse only applies an attack bonus, not a damage bonus - Dervish Dance does both. However, they both state "you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier" so the effects will not stack if you were to find a way to normally Finesse a Scimitar or Dervish Dance w/a Finessable Weapon (IE: 3.5 Aptitude Weapon ability)
Was the, weapon finesse feat, weapon specific in 3.0?
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I don't think I'm the only one that would like Weapon Finesse to disappear as a feat and just be automatically applicable if you have more Dex than Str when making a melee attack with light or finesse weapons.
I don't think I'm the only one that would like Weapon Finesse to disappear as a feat and just be automatically applicable if you have more Dex than Str when making a melee attack with light or finesse weapons.
I partly agree with you.
I think that it would be more suited as a trait or maybe part of another feat.
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I don't think I'm the only one that would like Weapon Finesse to disappear as a feat and just be automatically applicable if you have more Dex than Str when making a melee attack with light or finesse weapons.
Funny thing is that IIRC such is the case for Tiny and Diminutive creatures, even when fighting similar sized opponents, while it is not the case for Small or larger creatures (PCs for example), even when fighting opponents far larger than they are.
In fact, the legacy system from 3.5 (and 3.0 I believe) is not consistent at all when you change the size of creatures.
Dervish dance does not allow you to use weapon finesse with a scimitar... but it removes the need to do so. It specifically says "When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls." So it doesn't allow you to finesse a scimitar (which would imply that you could then do so even if you didn't meet the conditions for the rest of the feat), but it gives you the effect of finessing a scimitar when you do meet those conditions.
This is a good explanation, I think where things get muddy for some people is the fact that Weapon Finesse and Scimitar proficiency are part of the pre-reqs for this feat.
I don't think I'm the only one that would like Weapon Finesse to disappear as a feat and just be automatically applicable if you have more Dex than Str when making a melee attack with light or finesse weapons.
Agreed.
As mentioned up thread, the requirements are Weapon finesse and wield a scimitar. Why the weapon finesse? who knows as the feat does not impact on the weapon. This is like saying you need Heavy armor Proficiency so you can sleep in light armor without a penalty. The heavy armor proficiency has nothing to do with wearing light armor, just as weapon finesse has nothing to do with scimitar.
We were waiting for a three year necro but got impatient.
Seriously, there's been a time or two that I found a thread through search and nearly added some helpful advice that was a year late ...
Hey, new folks come into the game all the time, it may be two years old, but it may be new to them ( or in some cases to me) :-)
It was new to me too. Last game I ran a Magus for the first time -- a Weapon Finesse scimitar-based halfling -- and this thread pointed out that wasn't actually legal.
It didn't have Dervish Dance (that may have been a TPK despite CR), but I thought that Weapon Finesse exchanged Dex for attacks on a scimitar. Even now, the feat choice is really puzzling. They don't make you take Point-blank Shot to get Weapon Specialization: Greatsword.
Even now, the feat choice is really puzzling. They don't make you take Point-blank Shot to get Weapon Specialization: Greatsword.
I agree that the connection isn't intuitive. However, Weapon Finesse does work with the rapier, an almost statistically identical weapon to the scimitar. My magus simply wielded a rapier (using his dex for attack roles via Weapon Finesse,) until he could pick up Dervish Dance.
it seems surprising to me that people don't think this is an intuitive connection... maybe everyone is thinking a little too meta-game. dervish dance lets you do something beyond what you can do with weapon finesse- 2 things actually: you can get the benefit of finesse with a one-handed weapon, and you can add your dex to damage. it makes perfect sense (if you think from a character's perspective) that you would have to understand the techniques of relying on your dex to attack with light or well balanced weapons in order to learn the more difficult ability to use it with a heavier, more awkward blade like the scimitar.
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They don't make you take Point-blank Shot to get Weapon Specialization: Greatsword.
But they do make you take Point-Blank Shot to get Far Shot, which is a more analagous situation. You still aren't really using both feats at the same time, but the prereq indicates a certain base skill level to be able to learn a harder thing.
Dervish Dance basically lets you treat a Scimitar like a Rapier (can be considered a piercing weapon and you get to use DEX to attack instead of STR) and then you get to use DEX for damage instead of STR to boot. So, it makes a lot of sense that Weapon Finesse would be required. You're essentially turning a Scimitar into a finessable weapon.
Dervish Dance gives a lot for a feat. Hence, the Weapon Finesse "feat tax". If you think of it as basically breaking the benefit up into two feats, it makes more sense.
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I think you might be overthinking both the specifics of the build and the vulnerability of the class - the dervish dance magus works well with any race, you only tie down 2 skill points and two feats.
As for level 1 & 2... You'll get Weapon Finesse at level 1. Your to-hit will be identical to what it will be with dervish dance, and your damage output will be similar to a level 1 rogue. While not ideal, I wouldn't call it "severely gimped" either.
Level as a standard Magus for the first several levels, then once you hit 5th or thereabouts, retrain.
Although to be honest, my experiences with Magus seemed to show that a dervish Magus is no more hindered than a STR-based build of the same class; they have access to the same armor and the bulk of their damage output comes from their spells since they're both restricted to the same light or one-handed weapons.
As for flexibility, there are a number of interesting builds you can make. For example, combining a dervish Magus with the Spell Dancer archetype is a whole lot of fun, and at higher levels plays into a 'Nightcrawler'-esque attack build that is a blast to play.