The question of how do you decide when an advanced monster hits epic was always a sticky wicket.
The most definitive answer came in the main 3.5 FAQ.
See, the rest of us are assuming the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook is being thrown out the window and are brainstorming how things should work for Pathfinder 20+ play.
I'll bow to the correction on the CR and ECL, as it wasn't my intent to address those points.
I was primarily picking out that getting Epic Qualification did not put you on the Epic Progression for BAB and Saves, nor could you take Epic feats with Non-Epic class progressions.
As for the f/21 against the fire giant f/10...Enlarge Person gets them both to the same size. The f/21 will be ahead in feats and fighter class abilities. The fire giant will have lower BAB, higher Str and Con and a Nat Armor advantage. If we were using 3.5, the fighter could just morph into a firbolg and negate all the fire giant's advantages in stats.
It'd be interesting. I'd hate to be the one on the receiving end of some high level fighter capstone abilities, however!
==Aelryinth
The question of how do you decide when an advanced monster hits epic was always a sticky wicket.
The most definitive answer came in the main 3.5 FAQ, regarding running monsters as PCs (from Savage Species), which stated the following:
When is a monster character considered epic level? Do you “go epic” when your total class levels equal 20 or when your total Hit Dice equal 20? Is a monster character eligible for epic-level feats (such as Epic Toughness) when its character level is 21+ or when its ECL is 21+?
A monster becomes an epic-level character when its character level hits 21, just like any other character. A monster’s character level equals its racial Hit Dice + class levels. (See the second sidebar on page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook.)
Which makes no sense, and makes me glad I never ran across that piece of WoTC wisdom. If Hit Dice were equal to character levels, then any monster's CR simply be its Hit Dice, and I could take a low CR high HD creature and start giving it things like, say, Devastating Critical.
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See, the rest of us are assuming the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook is being thrown out the window and are brainstorming how things should work for Pathfinder 20+ play.
And there's several conversations going on here. One is about viability of epic rules in general, one is about what Paizo should do, and I'm talking about use of the existing ELH-based epic rules.
Could we please have, as the next hardcover book, the epic level one? I do not really see anything left to do apart from that (and psionics, but I would say more people will use the Epic level rules than the psionic ones, especially since mind flayers are not included in PFRG).
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I know I may sound somewhat childish, or even whiny, but this has been a pet peeve of mine ever since the absolutely abysmal ELH Wizard published and then promptly forgot about. Probably one of the worst products ever published, with extremely little thought and effort put into. Which is why I have such high expectations for its replacement.
Thank you for your time.
PS: I have to admit I really want to see Tar-Baphon statted.
Paizo has been pretty clear in saying they aren't just "doing what has been done before." Just 'cause 2E and then 3E did a Psionic book then an Epic book doesn't mean Paizo will. In fact, it doesn't appear to be on the horizon.
So I wouldn't expect them to do it just because it has been done before. Quite the contrary in fact, which I believe is very, very smart.
Plus, anecdotal evidence is that the real high level games just don't fill up. People beg for it but then those tables sit empty or have to be cancelled for little interest. Conclusion--there is a very vocal minority that wants epic level and if that is the case, there is little incentive for Paizo to spend time on it. Instead, its a perfect 3P product (like psionics).
I'd like to point out that if we actually had an ELH, there would probably be a huge increase in the number of people playing ELH games. I, for one, would love to see my group making their way into other planes for legitimate long stays. perhaps trying their hands at fighting the Gods or moving into divine roles themselves.
Paizo has been pretty clear in saying they aren't just "doing what has been done before." Just 'cause 2E and then 3E did a Psionic book then an Epic book doesn't mean Paizo will. In fact, it doesn't appear to be on the horizon.
So I wouldn't expect them to do it just because it has been done before. Quite the contrary in fact, which I believe is very, very smart.
Plus, anecdotal evidence is that the real high level games just don't fill up. People beg for it but then those tables sit empty or have to be cancelled for little interest. Conclusion--there is a very vocal minority that wants epic level and if that is the case, there is little incentive for Paizo to spend time on it. Instead, its a perfect 3P product (like psionics).
You're probably right, but keep in mind that high level rules has never been done properly - except perhaps the BECMI rules.
The AD&D book was released as part of the Skills & Powers books, which was kind of a late 2.5e version of the game, and the ELH is what it is.I'm not saying that a pathfinder epic book will be a great hit - it probably wont - but the past can only tell us so much.
I would love to see a book from JJ, as he is the only designer who has shown any interest in this kind of book, and his demon lord articles was really cool.
Usually I dont buy 3P products - bad art and shoddy layout is a big turnoff for me - but I would buy a product with the production values of necromancergames and malhavoc.
See, the rest of us are assuming the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook is being thrown out the window and are brainstorming how things should work for Pathfinder 20+ play.The question of how do you decide when an advanced monster hits epic was always a sticky wicket.
The most definitive answer came in the main 3.5 FAQ.
Yeah... The less we see of that monstrosity the better.
Could we please have, as the next hardcover book, the epic level one? I do not really see anything left to do apart from that (and psionics, but I would say more people will use the Epic level rules than the psionic ones, especially since mind flayers are not included in PFRG).
...
I know I may sound somewhat childish, or even whiny, but this has been a pet peeve of mine ever since the absolutely abysmal ELH Wizard published and then promptly forgot about. Probably one of the worst products ever published, with extremely little thought and effort put into. Which is why I have such high expectations for its replacement.
Thank you for your time.
PS: I have to admit I really want to see Tar-Baphon statted.
Paizo has been pretty clear in saying they aren't just "doing what has been done before." Just 'cause 2E and then 3E did a Psionic book then an Epic book doesn't mean Paizo will. In fact, it doesn't appear to be on the horizon.
So I wouldn't expect them to do it just because it has been done before. Quite the contrary in fact, which I believe is very, very smart.
Plus, anecdotal evidence is that the real high level games just don't fill up. People beg for it but then those tables sit empty or have to be cancelled for little interest. Conclusion--there is a very vocal minority that wants epic level and if that is the case, there is little incentive for Paizo to spend time on it. Instead, its a perfect 3P product (like psionics).
This confuses PFS play with non-PFS play, however.
The observation that convention games don't fill up is not evidence that nobody is interested. My take on it (as someone who as run high-level games at cons) is that people are more interested in living campaigns than high-level one-shots. I do run high-level games at cons, and they do go off about 2/3 of the time, but I'm not exactly turning people away.
On the other hand, I'd say by definition that for any subset rules system (oriental, psionics, epic, etc.) the people who are actively seeking that it be published are a minority of the gaming population as a whole.
I'd say this is similar to how it's likely that the people who are dying for Goblins of Golarion to be published are a minority of the whole. I'm not against it, but I certainly wouldn't miss it if they did something else. There's people who are against it, there's people who are for it, and then there's the silent, largely indifferent majority.
Paizo has been pretty clear in saying they aren't just "doing what has been done before." Just 'cause 2E and then 3E did a Psionic book then an Epic book doesn't mean Paizo will. In fact, it doesn't appear to be on the horizon.
So I wouldn't expect them to do it just because it has been done before. Quite the contrary in fact, which I believe is very, very smart.
Plus, anecdotal evidence is that the real high level games just don't fill up. People beg for it but then those tables sit empty or have to be cancelled for little interest. Conclusion--there is a very vocal minority that wants epic level and if that is the case, there is little incentive for Paizo to spend time on it. Instead, its a perfect 3P product (like psionics).
This confuses PFS play with non-PFS play, however.
The observation that convention games don't fill up is not evidence that nobody is interested. My take on it (as someone who as run high-level games at cons) is that people are more interested in living campaigns than high-level one-shots. I do run high-level games at cons, and they do go off about 2/3 of the time, but I'm not exactly turning people away.
On the other hand, I'd say by definition that for any subset rules system (oriental, psionics, epic, etc.) the people who are actively seeking that it be published are a minority of the gaming population as a whole.
I'd say this is similar to how it's likely that the people who are dying for Goblins of Golarion to be published are a minority of the whole. I'm not against it, but I certainly wouldn't miss it if they did something else. There's people who are against it, there's people who are for it, and then there's the silent, largely indifferent majority.
+1
Also, from what I have seen of the posts from Paizo (especially James Jacobs), I don’t feel it is going to be so much ‘if’ they will make an Epic (Mythic) book, but ‘when.’
Where I agree nothing has been announced or is on the horizon, when I see phrases from JJ of “time has to be right” or “help speed the book along”, gives me the impression the book is going to happen eventually.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I just wanted to chime in on this thread with a few of my personal thoughts on an "epic level" book for Pathfinder.
I am relatively certain that we will get around to doing this at some point, though I will also say that we do not currently have plans to produce this book in the next year (or even two years).
The reasons for this are manifold, but have an awful lot to do with my sense of where the audience is in general and my view of how Wizards rolled out their epic-level book for third edition and the various issues associated with it.
For starters, the number of people interested in post-20th-level play is quite small compared to the number of folks playing in the standard 1-20 range. For good or ill, most campaigns never even reach level 20 (or level 15, for that matter) before petering out, and my sense is that most people prefer to "begin at the beginning" with 1st-level characters rather than run campaigns that begin at, say, 15th level and then work their way through the high-level stuff.
No doubt, the release of an epic-level rulebook for Pathfinder would significantly increase the number of players interested in using super-high-level material, but by that metric, a release focused on standard high-level play, giving GMs and players tools and rules bits to make running a genuinely "high-level" campaign would have a significantly higher audience than a book focused on 20+, and would, in turn, increase the potential audience for a truly epic-level book down the road.
In short, I feel pretty strongly that there are still a large handful of books that can be released for the "standard" 1-20 game before we get ahead of ourselves and create a whole new game that is based on advancing characters beyond that point.
And make no mistake, an epic-level book from Paizo is going to look a lot more like a whole new game than a simple continuation of the same high-level math extrapolated across another 20 or 40 levels.
One of my most tortured freelance assignments as a writer for Wizards of the Coast involved crunching stat blocks for 60th-level+ gods in the Forgotten Realms Faiths & Pantheons hardcover. A well-meaning but ultimately incorrect manager decided that if the Deities & Demigods book that was then in production was going to give players stats that would allow them to fight and kill Thor, the same should be true for the likes of Bane, Torm, and so on.
I was one of the poor bastards they brought in to write these monster stat blocks, many of which spanned multiple pages. With the standard math extrapolated over lots more levels, I actually found myself in a position where a few of my gods actually ran out of feats to take, because there simply were not enough in the game to accommodate the number they "deserved" to have based on their absurd levels.
To make matters worse, the design for Faiths & Pantheons took place at the same time as the design for Deitis & Demigods, and only slightly trailed the design period for the Epic Rules themselves, which meant that the ground was shifting under us the whole time.
Ultimately, these changes forced the editors to rebuild all of our stat blocks anyway. Many of those stat blocks took more than four hours to create, and the other freelancer on the project and I each had to do dozens of the things.
Knowing that almost no one on Earth was actually going to use these stat blocks in any way made me feel as though I had seriously wasted my time.
Knowing that all of my work was erased and that someone else had to spend as much or more time doing all of that work over again CONFIRMED that I had utterly wasted my time.
I mean, at least I got paid for the work, but it was a real punch to the gut to have poured all of that effort down the drain for nothing.
All of this, when combined with the frankly pretty awkward implementation of the epic rules themselves, convinced me that Wizards of the Coast rushed the epic rules into production before they truly had a good sense of the D&D 3.0 rules system itself. Had those rules come after the 3.5 revision, around the time of the Book of 9 Swords and other more "experimental" books designed by a design staff more comfortable with the standard rules, I think the whole affair would have been considerably less painful for everyone, from the writers and editors to the players themselves.
There is still significant work to be done on the "core" 1-20 levels of the Pathfinder RPG--particularly in the higher third of that range--that I would like to see done before we wander off into levels beyond 20.
I understand that a lot of folks prefer that style of play, and would be happy to skip over all of the "regular" stuff to start wandering the planes, ruling nations, and getting into duels with goddesses.
But there are not enough people in that category to sell the number of books we need to sell to do it right.
My strong sense is that we need to further flesh out the high-level opportunities for the core Pathfinder game before wandering into the truly epic levels. Once we have done that, the potential audience for this book will be a lot larger, and "epic-level" Pathfinder rules will be an inevitability.
Erik, what are your thoughts on a high-level play guide (13th-20th) with a single section on continuing play past 20th... It was mentioned upthread.
Sort of in the spirit of the get-you-by post 20th rules pathfinder has, but expanded a bit.
I (quite obviously) think this would be the best way to start, and test the waters of post-20th products, without committing to a product that few people might ever use.
I really think that creating a systemic wall at 20th is what causes problems. Well, that and "epic" spam.
One of my most tortured freelance assignments as a writer for Wizards of the Coast involved crunching stat blocks for 60th-level+ gods in the Forgotten Realms Faiths & Pantheons hardcover. A well-meaning but ultimately incorrect manager decided that if the Deities & Demigods book that was then in production was going to give players stats that would allow them to fight and kill Thor, the same should be true for the likes of Bane, Torm, and so on.
...
Many of those stat blocks took more than four hours to create, and the other freelancer on the project and I each had to do dozens of the things.
Knowing that almost no one on Earth was actually going to use these stat blocks in any way made me feel as though I had seriously wasted my time.
Oh, believe me, I know your pain. But at least I use the stat blocks I create :) And that is why PDFs are a must have for me. I cannot imagine trying to work at this level without my ever-growing library of advanced creatures, templates, feats, etc.
However, overall ... :(
I do totally understand ... and frankly it's not even that relevant for me right now because there's no way I would kill off my 3.5e epic campaign even if Pathfinder 21+ was released today, and given that it looks like it has at least a year or two of life left, perhaps this is even for the best, as I would really like to be able to focus on high level Pathfinder when such a beast does exist.
But this does mean that the L36 Pathfinder event I'll be running soon will be sort of an orphan. Unless it goes well, then I'll probably do it again next year.
@Lincoln: say, what do you mean "epic spam?" (curious)
I am relatively certain that we will get around to doing this at some point, though I will also say that we do not currently have plans to produce this book in the next year (or even two years).
Hey everyone, if we're serious about this, we're going to have to CREATE the community that we want.
Idea One: Get your PFS character up to 12th level. Then run for your friends until they are 12th level. Report, report, report.
Idea Two: Go to a con. Run a high level game. Play in as many as you can.
Idea Three: FINISH an adventure path. All the way. Leave your players wanting more.
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When we've got a sizable community of people with 12th level Pathfinder characters that they love, asking "What can I play now?" then we've got a shot at seeing high level PFS mods and APs that go 1-20 like Savage Tide.
And when we get THAT crew through the 13-20th level stuff, the tide of support for epic-level material will be so powerful that Eric will HAVE to come up with something cool.
Get to work people ; )
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Erik, what are your thoughts on a high-level play guide (13th-20th) with a single section on continuing play past 20th... It was mentioned upthread.
I think that's a good idea for a book. A better idea than a "straight" epic book, at least at this point in time. Plus, such a book would increase the potential audience for a true epic book, which makes it an even better idea.
@Lincoln: say, what do you mean "epic spam?" (curious)
Epic Spam: The idea that the game is in any way served by making a new ability that is just the old ability with a bigger number and the word "epic" in front of it.
Or rather, just using the word epic for freakin' everything. There were many things wrong with the 3.5 ELH, but this was chief among them. I think they actually made a serious dent in the utility of an otherwise cool word, they used it that much.
I know for a fact some key Paizo staff already feel this way about the word, so there's little threat of this occurring again. We should be ever vigilant, however, that Epic spam is not merely replaced with 'mythic' spam or what have you.
I am relatively certain that we will get around to doing this at some point, though I will also say that we do not currently have plans to produce this book in the next year (or even two years).Hey everyone, if we're serious about this, we're going to have to CREATE the community that we want.
Idea One: Get your PFS character up to 12th level. Then run for your friends until they are 12th level. Report, report, report.
Idea Two: Go to a con. Run a high level game. Play in as many as you can.
Idea Three: FINISH an adventure path. All the way. Leave your players wanting more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
When we've got a sizable community of people with 12th level Pathfinder characters that they love, asking "What can I play now?" then we've got a shot at seeing high level PFS mods and APs that go 1-20 like Savage Tide.
And when we get THAT crew through the 13-20th level stuff, the tide of support for epic-level material will be so powerful that Eric will HAVE to come up with something cool.
Get to work people ; )
I'll go with Idea Four :)
Idea Four: Run campaigns in the 13-20 level bracket. Write them up here on the boards for all to see as evidence that people are out there, using those rules, and looking for more. Evidence that requires only a few clicks of the keys to see!
Erik, I'm interested in what you think the fluff/crunch ratio of a non-epic "high-level play guide" would be?
Personally, I see such a book as being something along the lines of a specialized GameMastery Guide; it's not so much about new rules as it is effective ways of utilizing the existing rules when they become eminently practical (for the players), and injecting greater verisimilitude/internal logic and consistency for the PCs' abilities and actions.
This involves things like how to deal with the scry-buff-teleport "problem," questions of fame/renown affecting the PCs' daily lives, how to take the game "beyond the dungeon" (by which I mean dealing with the fact that the PCs are major players on the national/world stage, rather than using planar/nontraditional "dungeons") - which may include issues of rulership (possibly invoking the spirit of Kingmaker) - and other concerns that are unique to the higher levels.
Right. It's been a long time since I bothered with anything resembling a classic dungeon; high level abilities make anything like that become silly very quickly, either with arbitrary things like force treated walls everywhere (who would actually do that??) or the party essentially walking literally straight through it.
It seems a lot more likely that someone would have a permanent hallow with dimensional lock tied to it and tied to a specific alignment or something. But of course, that would be problematic for the PCs :)
However, the whole thing being in a demiplane for safety was spot on, I think.
And I like what Erik and others have suggested, which is a high-level gamemastery guide. There's all sorts of issues when you're running a game at high levels.
Ideally, an epic level book would deal with all of these concerns in their magnified, epic context alongside the necessary new rules.
And I think he hit it spot on saying that a high-level adventuring book is a necessary first step, rather than leaping directly to 21+.
you can use UMD to emulate an alignment. with keys, you still need to get the keys, and you can't pick a lock based on magic.
i.e. it's a way of insuring that skill ranks don't bypass your McGuffin hunt.
==Aelryinth
I've been championing a "post-20th level book" for some time here at Paizo, but the time has to be right for us to do it. It won't be called "Epic level" though, since whatever we do with the topic will be handled differently enough from the 3rd edition take on the topic that calling it "epic" would be weird.
My current favorite word for "post-20th level play" is "Mythic Adventures." Or something like that.
Seeing a LOT of support for epic level play... not just in this thread, but across the boards, and indeed across the internet, or even best, in person at conventions, would help speed such a book along.
I have a character who desperately wants to kill Lamashtu. Help please! :-)
Need some epic level lovin'.
Thanks, Erik, for putting some 'official' weight behind the decision to focus on High-Level first, then "Epic/Mythic/Munchkin" whatever later.
While I (and many others) are going to be throwing the proverbial fit that we will have to wait EVEN LONGER, it gives me more faith that once Paizo tackles post-20th, they will CERTAINLY know what they're doing.
Also, I've been reading the BECMI stuff lately, and I've got to say, when very high level play was tackled back then, it was done so with a MUCH simpler rules set. 2nd Edition Revised's "High-Level Campaigns" had a bit more to deal with, but not nearly as much as 3.0 had, and certainly, while Paizo has not the "Rules Bloat" that 3.5 eventually did, and while Paizo has done a great job of streamlining mechanics where it makes sense to do so, it is by no means the "rules light" system that BECMI had.
So yeah, I'm kicking and screaming, but instead of stomping around petulantly until I get Paizo's post-20th rules, I've decided to go back through my stable, and start some of my really high-level characters from previous editions over at 1st level with PF. Let's see if 20 levels is (gasp!) enough. For some of them, it may be, but for others, maybe not.
If those characters get to 20th before the rules for "epic" come out, well, I've got some 3pp stuff and some partial support from PF core to tide me over. And plenty more character concepts to start from scratch with.
"Today, we spell redemption [E-R-I-K]!" *Sam McLean drops mic and walks off-camera*
@Erik Mona
I am disappointed by this, I have several years waiting for this
I guess that 3.5 will remain the best option
in my opinion levels 20- is boring
By the way, one or two of the Legendary Games authors has expressed an interest in writing some higher level "capstones" to a few of the APs--Legacy of Fire in particular.
After all, if in the last hoard you get a staff of the magi but dont ever get to use it, that sucks. :)
Clark
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This looks to be the most effective course of munchkin-weeding.
Every time I see 'GIVE GAWDZ STAT BLOKZ LOL WANNA KILL' I kill someone's PC.
Erik, what are your thoughts on a high-level play guide (13th-20th) with a single section on continuing play past 20th... It was mentioned upthread.
I think that's a good idea for a book. A better idea than a "straight" epic book, at least at this point in time. Plus, such a book would increase the potential audience for a true epic book, which makes it an even better idea.
I really think this is a good idea as well. The only thing I could see is if there would be the one section on continuing play past 20th, I would think you (Paizo) would already have to have a good idea how you are going to do the epic (Mythic) book. As I know you wouldn't want to put information in that one section that would not agree with the eventual Mythic book (if ever completed).
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Every time I see 'GIVE GAWDZ STAT BLOKZ LOL WANNA KILL' I kill someone's PC.
Here's a stat block you can show them next time they ask:
Lesser God
Init Goes First; Senses Perception Sees You
Defense
AC infinity, touch infinity, flat-footed infinity
hp infinity
Fort +infinity, Ref +infinity, Will +infinity
Offense
Speed 30 parsecs
Melee +infinity (death)
Ranged +infinity (death)
Statistics
Str infinity, Dex infinity, Con infinity, Int infinity, Wis infinity, Cha infinity
Base Atk +infinity; CMB +infinity; CMD infinity
Feats All
Skills All +infinity
Languages All
Every time I see 'GIVE GAWDZ STAT BLOKZ LOL WANNA KILL' I kill someone's PC.Here's a stat block you can show them next time they ask:
Lesser God
Ridiculous stat block
Bah, you DMs are no fun.
:)
Gorbacz, I thought you didn’t want epic rules, period?
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Gorbacz, I thought you didn’t want epic rules, period?
What I didn't want is epic rules in 2012, using 3.5 chassis, with "let's kill gods and become overgods and then ubergods" mentality. 3.5 epic statblocks make me throw up in my mouth, and are a certain way of driving people away from the game.
I can live with epic rules further down the road, using a whole different design mentality, after Golarion is developed well enough to show where epic stuff can happen without disrupting the current status quo.
I am also glad to see that the publisher sees 20+ range as not exactly popular - I prefer Paizo to focus on lower level stuff on first priority.
So, Erik made my day :)
Ok, fair enough. And I agree that PC's shouldn't be going around killing gods, that's why they are gods. Even if the PC is well into epic (mythic) levels.
In a way I am disappointed that the mythic book isn't even on the radar and we won't see it for at least 2 years, but on the other hand, I am glad to hear it as it means Paizo will take their time with it, and do it right.
I think we all knew 20+ is not as popular as lower levels. I do hope though with what Erik said, that there will be more content released that will give reason for peole to play high level (mid to late teen) characters, and therefore the consumer base for eventual 20+ content will be there.
Every time I see 'GIVE GAWDZ STAT BLOKZ LOL WANNA KILL' I kill someone's PC.Here's a stat block you can show them next time they ask:
Lesser God
Ridiculous stat blockBah, you DMs are no fun.
:)
Apropos of image and theme...
:D
Not that it's badwrongfun, I just have more personal anecdotal bad experience than I've seen cumulative good experience, so my view is...well, like me.*
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You should see the statblock for Greater Gods.Every time I see 'GIVE GAWDZ STAT BLOKZ LOL WANNA KILL' I kill someone's PC.Here's a stat block you can show them next time they ask:
Lesser God
Ridiculous stat blockBah, you DMs are no fun.
:)
Please, please, can i?
You die.
That is a greater god stat block.
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The mere sight of an Outer God's true CR would rend your mind, cleaving your sanity in twain, leaving you gibbering blasphemies. The CR of an Outer God cannot be represented with the limited mathematics available to beings of merely three spacial and one temporal dimensions.
I cannot see anyway I would ever use this book. Whats more it would be such a low priority that I'd probably never actually buy it, even to read.
This involves things like how to deal with the scry-buff-teleport "problem," questions of fame/renown affecting the PCs' daily lives, how to take the game "beyond the dungeon" (by which I mean dealing with the fact that the PCs are major players on the national/world stage, rather than using planar/nontraditional "dungeons") - which may include issues of rulership (possibly invoking the spirit of Kingmaker) - and other concerns that are unique to the higher levels.
Right. It's been a long time since I bothered with anything resembling a classic dungeon; high level abilities make anything like that become silly very quickly, either with arbitrary things like force treated walls everywhere (who would actually do that??) or the party essentially walking literally straight through it.
** spoiler omitted **
And I like what Erik and others have suggested, which is a...
Re: reference to Iron Medusa: I understand your concern about why a tomb builder would have keys scattered around to access something. It's obviously a well-worn trope of "old school" dungeons and fantasy fiction--the quest for magic keys. However, if I were really designing a tomb for myself with the resources available in an RPG, I could make it nigh impenetrable. But designing a module means making it beatable, otherwise what's the point? As a designer, it's a big challenge at higher levels to avoid the use of multiple keys and killing PC abilities so that puzzles and traps aren't a cakewalk. Can you think of other solutions for addressing this design problem that aren't experienced by PCs as "silly"?
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In that case, you're playing the wrong game and should be looking up something more up your alley, Raven McCracken's The World of Synnibarr otherwise known as power gaming on crack.
-10000000 Who the hell are you to tell any poster he is playing the game wrong.
I also think that folks maybe are jumping the gun a bit on this. How long was 3.X out before the epic book was published? (and as it turned out, they blew donkey chunks even with that much time) The Core Rules have been in hardback about a year tops, and the base classes won't be set until Ultimate Combat comes out this summer. If you can't wait for your epic fix, do what 30 years of D+Ders did before any epic guidelines ever came out.... wing it.
Actually, the ELH was released in July of 2002, so thereabouts 2 years after 3.0 was released. But I agree, it ‘blew donkey chunks.’
If the PFRPG Mythic book was released this year, it would be around the same amount of time (around 2 years) from when the CRB was released. However, we know that will not be the case, which I am glad for.
And when I said it was a little disappointing hearing it will take longer, it’s not that I ‘need’ it now by any means. Our group is still far from nearing 20th level. It’s just the geek or nerd in me wanting to see how Paizo would handle the book. :)
But I would much rather see Paizo wait and make sure it is done right, which Erik had said is what is going to happen. That takes precedent than the ‘nerd’ in me wanting the book now just so I can see what was done with it.
Apropos of image and theme...:D
Not that it's badwrongfun, I just have more personal anecdotal bad experience than I've seen cumulative good experience, so my view is...well, like me.*
Heh, nice image. But I was just kidding with my post, anways. :)
I do agree with you, PCs shouldn’t be go around taking on gods. Becomes rather silly.
Now, if you are epic (mythic) levels, and well into it on top of that, I can see PCs taking on the avatars for the gods.
But that is for another discussion
Re: reference to Iron Medusa: I understand your concern about [stuff]. It's obviously a well-worn trope of "old school" dungeons and fantasy fiction--the quest for magic keys. However, if I were really designing a tomb for myself with the resources available in an RPG, I could make it nigh impenetrable. But designing a module means making it beatable, otherwise what's the point? As a designer, it's a big challenge at higher levels to avoid the use of multiple keys and killing PC abilities so that puzzles and traps aren't a cakewalk. Can you think of other solutions for addressing this design problem that aren't experienced by PCs as "silly"?It's been a long time since I bothered with anything resembling a classic dungeon; high level abilities make anything like that become silly very quickly, either with arbitrary things like force treated walls everywhere (who would actually do that??) or the party essentially walking literally straight through it.
** Tomb of the Iron Medusa spoiler omitted **
And I like what Erik and others have suggested, which is a...
@Mike: Don't get me wrong - as a standalone adventure, I like it because it does have those classic problem solving elements which make it a fun game. I was referring more to the realism than the playability, which tends to play a larger part in a long-running campaign, which must have sufficient realism to hold together long-term.
For short-term playability the problem is exactly as you point out - what fun is an impenetrable tomb and why bother including it in a module?
I have had to deal with the "high level dungeon" problem on several occasions, and have occasionally used the following solutions. None of these make a good module, I'll point out. If you haven't guessed, I'm not a huge fan of the ELH psycho dungeon approach.
- Don't bother. I don't bother making it hard; I assume the characters will just walk right through it. This is okay because it's not a module, they are powerful, and it's realistic that they'd just walk right through it. Obviously this is poor for a module unless it's just a distraction and not the main event.
- Make it impenetrable. So far, there's several places in my game world the party has been unable to crack into. We spent three game sessions one time with them trying to get past the guardian before they hit the actual tomb. High-level characters tend to develop rather large egos, it turns out. This would never work in a module - either it is completely arbitrary (the classic Door You Cannot Open No Matter What), hugely annoying, or both.
- Give one or more of the characters a personal interest. Last fall, they did actually do something like a dungeon crawl - but it was a tomb of one of the characters' ancestors that had "gone bad" which was hugely important to their clan. Thus any sort of major (or even minor) destruction was really out of the question. You can write something like this into a module, but it really doesn't work unless one or more of the players buys into it. Clearly in a long-running campaign the players have buy-in so this works better.
- Use high-power defenses. From my point of view, I don't feel that it loses versimilitude if you include an effect that would outright kill lesser people but leaves the PCs damaged but unkilled. For example, an energy drain trap or a blasphemy trap. This does work in modules, but can be very dependent upon party makeup. However, this is where a lot of Tomb of the Iron Medusa did get it right - it was only that one piece (mentioned in the spoiler) that I found unrealistic.
Note that I use the keys trope extensively myself for many of the same reasons you give - it's a great way for the GM to control the flow of the game. If you have to get A from B before you can get into C, even if it's a sandbox campaign you have not given up all control.
What I'd personally question as a player was why the heck all the keys were scattered all over and where they were kept in the first place - and I'd be really annoyed if I never spoke to the efreeti and found out there were keys, and I'd have expected them to be in normal but hidden locations (though probably moved over the years). And anything I'd question as a player, I tend to want to explain in my writing.
Granted, this is all personal preference - but since you asked, here is probably what I'd do differently (and it's minor): I would keep the efreeti as one clue, but in area D would have had one hidden storage area per key (rather than one for one key), perhaps with one of them busted open as a clue, and something about the storage areas would hint at them being present as more than just treasure. In addition, I would probably allude to the keys in the vision the party has of Cadimus Adella - nothing overt but something that would later make the players go "hey, wait a sec ... didn't that vision say something about that?" Perhaps Cadmius could muse about how the brooch was too important and should never have been removed from the tomb or something similar.
Clues like that would be particularly important for the gem key, which is located in the eye socket of one of "countless skulls" in the Daellum hidden crypt hidden off the hidden top level of the tomb accessed by teleporting from the family crypts. Even knowing the key is a gem, it will be difficult to find.
That's probably about it - though for personal edification I'd have come up with a rationale for each of the keys to have moved from the logical place to store it to its current location. Why was the dagger in the font? Why was the gem in the eye socket of a skull in a sub-sub-basement? How did Lucretia end up with the brooch? While these may not be explained overtly in the module, knowing the rationale would allow their placement to make sense, especially the brooch and the gem.
As I mentioned, all told, it's really pretty minor - I really just meant to use that one piece of Tomb of the Iron Medusa as an example, not to make it seem like a slam of the module.
-10000000 Who the hell are you to tell any poster he is playing the game wrong.
Technically, since PF only goes to level 20 (today, at least), if you're playing above level 20, you're not really playing the same game.
I'm not fond of telling people that they're playing a game wrong, but playing 20+ (including the riduclous 50+) levels isn't Pathfinder. It may be a homebrew kit-bash of PF & 3.x, but it's not PF - and that's cool.
I prefer the right-tool-for-the-job analogy. I don't drive nails with a screwdriver. If you want epic, god-slaying action, there are rpgs that are a better tool for doing so than Pathfinder.
Actually, the ELH was released in July of 2002, so thereabouts 2 years after 3.0 was released. But I agree, it ‘blew donkey chunks.’
If the PFRPG Mythic book was released this year, it would be around the same amount of time (around 2 years) from when the CRB was released. However, we know that will not be the case, which I am glad for.
And when I said it was a little disappointing hearing it will take longer, it’s not that I ‘need’ it now by any means. Our group is still far from nearing 20th level. It’s just the geek or nerd in me wanting to see how Paizo would handle the book. :)
But I would much rather see Paizo wait and make sure it is done right, which Erik had said is what is going to happen. That takes precedent than the ‘nerd’ in me wanting the book now just so I can see what was done with it.
Right. I suspect that the ELH was as doomed because it was released while they were clearly prepping for 3.5e. Note that they did support it afterwards - a number of Forgotten Realms sourcebooks have epic material, as do several of the environmental sourcebooks.
But in any case, I have no problem with the timing as mentioned by Erik, as I don't see winding down my campaign in any less than a year, maybe two, and that sounds like it might be perfect timing.
Like I'd really give details here. Junior, I see you out there!
I do agree with you, PCs shouldn’t be go around taking on gods. Becomes rather silly.
Now, if you are epic (mythic) levels, and well into it on top of that, I can see PCs taking on the avatars for the gods.
But that is for another discussion
My current campaign agrees with you entirely, and I just picked up a copy of The Primal Order which I think will do wonders for how I handle the gods (and I love how it handles of artifacts, especially planar artifacts). I may combine elements of Immortals Handbook: Ascension with The Primal Order; I have not read either in depth yet.
On the other hand, I have no personal issue with running another campaign that is more like Greek myth in tone, where the PCs are more directly confrontational with the gods.
It's all what game you're playing, and I'm very leery of telling anyone how they should play the game - all I'm willing to say is how I prefer to play the game. And right now, that does not involve even directly confronting the gods, never mind killing them.
Technically, since PF only goes to level 20 (today, at least), if you're playing above level 20, you're not really playing the same game.
Technically it does not stop at level 20. See pp406-407 of the Core Rulebook.
I'm not fond of telling people that they're playing a game wrong, but playing 20+ (including the riduclous 50+) levels isn't Pathfinder. It may be a homebrew kit-bash of PF & 3.x, but it's not PF - and that's cool.
I prefer the right-tool-for-the-job analogy. I don't drive nails with a screwdriver. If you want epic, god-slaying action, there are rpgs that are a better tool for doing so than Pathfinder.
Yep, if you get much over level 20 it definitely cannot be purely Pathfinder; that's kind of the whole point of this thread. But Pathfinder provides an excellent base for such gameplay - it's just not sufficient on its own (though I'll be seeing exactly how bad it turns out relatively soon).
Re: reference to Iron Medusa: I understand your concern about [stuff]. It's obviously a well-worn trope of "old school" dungeons and fantasy fiction--the quest for magic keys. However, if I were really designing a tomb for myself with the resources available in an RPG, I could make it nigh impenetrable. But designing a module means making it beatable, otherwise what's the point? As a designer, it's a big challenge at higher levels to avoid the use of multiple keys and killing PC abilities so that puzzles and traps aren't a cakewalk. Can you think of other solutions for addressing this design problem that aren't experienced by PCs as "silly"?It's been a long time since I bothered with anything resembling a classic dungeon; high level abilities make anything like that become silly very quickly, either with arbitrary things like force treated walls everywhere (who would actually do that??) or the party essentially walking literally straight through it.
** Tomb of the Iron Medusa spoiler omitted **
And I like what Erik and others have suggested, which is a...
@Mike: Don't get me wrong - as a standalone adventure, I like it because it does have those classic problem solving elements which make it a fun game. I was referring more to the realism than the playability, which tends to play a larger part in a long-running campaign, which must have sufficient realism to hold together long-term.
For short-term playability the problem is exactly as you point out - what fun is an impenetrable tomb and why bother including it in a module?
I have had to deal with the "high level dungeon" problem on several occasions, and have occasionally used the following solutions. None of these make a good module, I'll point out. If you haven't guessed, I'm not a huge fan of the ELH psycho dungeon approach.
...
- Don't bother. I don't bother making it hard; I assume the characters will just walk right through it. This is okay because it's
No need for an apology, I am certainly open to criticism and took no offense (in fact, please post a review here!). Having been out of the game for nearly two decades I am always interested to hear ideas about design conundrums. I've been made to understand that "old school" often means that PCs get railroaded by the module design and that was something I wanted to avoid however possible.
Your suggestion to explicate more clearly why keys are where they are is well taken, but the word count limit is a harsh mistress, especially for a writer like me who wants to lay in lots of detail. I was forced to eliminate a lot of the background and details I wanted to include, and more ended up on the cutting room floor. Poor Rob McCreary had the unpleasant duty of explaining to me that while family timelines and dates for births and deaths on all the sarcophagi may be absolutely fascinating to an obsessive like myself, for the most part it was unnecessary fluff easily trimmed. An 18,000 word limit creeps up on you quickly. Presenting an experience that immerses PCs in a vivid and believable world must be balanced with a sufficient number of encounters given the space limits.
As for those clamoring for an ELH, rather than just posting in this thread, purchase the higher level products (like Iron Medusa, Academy and Witch) to show Paizo that moving further would be worth the investment of their limited resources.