It's not so far off topic...
We've just gotten to the "It's ok to kill it, but don't spank it" part of the discussion.
Faulty equation. You can't really spank a zygote. To spank a child it would have to be born. No one is advocating killing born children.
Oh, of course...
My view is I'd rather a child survive its conception, then lets worry about whether or not to swat its butt.
But hey, it's alright.
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Get a dog.
Care for dog.
Discipline dog.
Love dog.
Eat dog.
My mother preferred a wooden spoon.
My father was induced to spank me twice, no tools, both times by my mother. (She grew up in a rather violent household by any definition, so this was normal to her. One time the masquerade she puts over parts of her childhood slipped and she mentioned her father beating her twin brother until blood flew.) I recall one of them but the other has vanished. Both were before I had much in the way of long-term memory. I don't recall what either one was for, but very much remember being absolutely mortally terrified of my father. That my father, a gently-disposed, quiet man would deliberately inflict pain on me was so far beyond my experience that I had no comprehension of how it could possibly be him.
This was before the spanking. I was afraid of the pain, but I was much more afraid of the monster that cornered me in the living room.
I remember the last time better because it was absolutely the last time. I know it was suggested many times thereafter, but he adamantly refused. I learned years later that he'd never felt right doing it and always regretted laying a hand on me. The experience of being terrorized and harmed didn't do a lot for my opinion of authority.
Looks like this thread deserves my special touch....
I dunno. My own experiences with corporal punishment have made me question its over all effectiveness. I have had way too many beatings (never called it spanking due to ethnicity, methinks) for reasons both rational and bizzarre and one or two that came too close to something I will not go into here. There are other ethnicity based reasons that make me question as well that would just take too long to get into here. I am not necessarily ruling it out entirely for my children, just thinking that it will depend on the child and what they did.
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So, after decades growing, what impact should we look for going forward? After decades, what impact should we already see?
Wasn't there a segment in Freakonomics linking together increased access to abortion with decreased crime over the course of a generation or so?
Of course, there's the same fundamental problem as with climate change or any other politicized area of science, where people pick and choose what they accept as science based on what they want the answer to be...
Yes, and +1.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy37wGK-6mY
(I've got to learn how to link stuff.)
Kids. You've gotta be firm.
And here I thought I was going to spend an unproductive day.
Spanking... who cares. Just don't spur your horse, ok?
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I recommend rereading my post. Didn't intend to 'blame' it on the media, but rather to state the obvious and note the large role they play in shaping societies. And have done for generations. In lots of ways. Not just sex. And our youngest generation is exposed to media constantly. Moreso than past generations. Technology has made it so.I choose not to ignore that fact, or history.
I was watching This Movie has not Yet Been Rated and one of the people interviewed pointed out that, due to the internet, kids have access to hardcore, seriously disbturbing porn at a very young age.
A sad and scary thought.
Great film. And very truthful.
Great film. And very truthful.
I recommend rereading my post. Didn't intend to 'blame' it on the media, but rather to state the obvious and note the large role they play in shaping societies. And have done for generations. In lots of ways. Not just sex. And our youngest generation is exposed to media constantly. Moreso than past generations. Technology has made it so.I choose not to ignore that fact, or history.
I was watching This Movie has not Yet Been Rated and one of the people interviewed pointed out that, due to the internet, kids have access to hardcore, seriously disbturbing porn at a very young age.
A sad and scary thought.
An interesting point, and while I have yet to see the film, my friends and I were knee deep in adult material from a young age long, long before the internet was a commonplace thing, and none of us seem to have any problems(although I do admit I study sex, which disturbs some people). The main problem I have with this point is that it doesn't address people like my friends and I.
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Let me chime in on this. I spank my kids, when their behavior warrants it, I do not beat them. There is a HUGE difference. Trust me, I wish my parents had just spanked. Instead I had jars smashed across my head, broomsticks broken across my back, I was hit with a cast iron skillet, I've been stomped into the f*+&ing floor, had my hands smashed in the refrigirator door. Once even had my boots used to beat me across the face. I lived in terror of what would happen to me when I got home, nothing was ever good enough. Rooms not clean? Beating time. Got a C in math? Let's smash your face into the wall until your nose bleeds. Whoops, didn't go to sleep when you went to bed? Beat you with a belt until you piss yourself. Do Not Ever try and say that spanking is beating.
+1000
Smurf
Smurf
Smurf
The spanking finally proved to me that this was an issue that wouldn't be allowed to slide. Occasional misbehavior was normal and forgiveable. A pattern of repeat offenses, and then upping the ante with attempted deception, would be met with something I couldn't just ignore. I'm grateful for it to this day.
This is about where I am on the issue.
I don't think spanking should be a frequent tool of discipline; but that being said, I think a lot of kids need to know that there is an discipline option at your disposal that they live in some amount of fear of that can come out. If you need it more than, say, once or twice total lifetime per child you're probably doing it wrong.
Those who start abusing their children come from somewhere, just like alcoholics do. There isn't a child abuser or alcoholic alive who would say that "Yeah, I sat down one day and decided that's what I wanted to be." What they do claim is that circumstances and others pushed them down the path. "My boss put so much work on me", "I had to drink, there was so much representative work", "My child willfully disrespected my authority", it's all bread and butter. The truth, "I used it as an easy way out of stressful situations, and then I got used to doing so, and I found that I needed to do more to get where I wanted to be", is invisible in the discussions about it.
It is not the end of the world if a child gets hurt, as long as there is no danger to them. However, when a parent willingly causes pain on the child, the trust that existed between them generally disappears. Especially if we're talking about very young children, since they do not have cause and effect down pat. They perceive things happening at random to them most of the time, and one of those things is that mom or dad hurt me. You also give the child a very good reason not to be honest with you - you might hurt them for things you don't like.
And if we're going to discuss the societal effects of spanking, I would say that the most likely consequence is a mass of people who no longer respond to non-violent influences... which incidentally explains why conservative politics involve putting a large percentage of the population in jail, no? After all, there is an discipline option at the state's disposal that they live in some amount of fear of that can come out.
The spanking finally proved to me that this was an issue that wouldn't be allowed to slide. Occasional misbehavior was normal and forgiveable. A pattern of repeat offenses, and then upping the ante with attempted deception, would be met with something I couldn't just ignore. I'm grateful for it to this day.
Agreed. By definition, spanking is supposed to more shocking and humiliating than painful. The point isn’t to hit them hard, but to make them understand by an exceptional punishment than repeated and blatant offenses can and will result in more than a gentle scolding.
We usually use a (mild!) slap on the butt when lied to, or when all other means have failed. Yesterday night, my children (3 and 6) were still running around at 9 after being told two times to settle down and go to sleep (and got all the water glasses, bedside stories and toilet time they needed). Their mom went upstairs and spanked them both.
Mind you, neither me or my sweetheart were abused or beaten as children. According to my mother, I was a very easy child. I got at most a handful of spankings in all my life : I remember one or two of them, and also that EVEN AT THE TIME I agreed that I quite deserved them. My father slapped me once in the face, and told me tens of years later that he almost instantly regretted it. I do remember that one too.
So, sorry, but I don’t agree with Sissyl's motto that violence begins with a slap on the wrist, and that spankings engenders violence in adults. I live in France, where as in most of Europe (except perhaps UK) mild corporal punishment is seen as a part of education : our crime rate is ludicrously lower than the US one. We should look elsewhere for explanations (no, not at RPG and video games, please!).
As to the original topic (Planned Parenthood), I can’t really participate. Over here, the current topic is the announcement made by the Ministry of Education last month that condoms distributors will be made available in all high schools, so… :)
I went on the World Health Organization site to retrieve some facts on precocious pregnancies (16 yrs old mothers or younger). We had got 16 millions PP in 2009 in the whole world (that is 11% of all pregnancies), of which over 50% are concentrated in seven countries : Bengladesh, Brazil, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopy, India, Nigeria… and USA.
The lower rates of PP are concentrated in western Europe, where sexual education is mandatory at school. The worst one (26 PP / 1000 pregnancies) can be found in UK, and the best one is Netherlands (4 PP / 1000 P) where sexual education begins at elementary school (in France, it’s first provided in what we call “college”, age 11-15).
So, in Europe, the role of the Planned Parenthood offices is more to provide easy access to birth control than to educate (abortion is generally taken in charge by the state, as all health issues). Our fecundity rates are roughly the same as the US ones (1,97 in France vs. 2,06 in USA, est. 2010; source: CIA factbook).
In 2003 (source: INED), there was 17 abortions per 1000 women per year in France or in UK, 8 in Germany… and 21 in the USA.
I don’t pretend to know which way is best, so keep the flames down : what works fine this side of the pond could utterly fail on the other side because of cultural, religious or political differences. But it seems that according to statistics a better sexual education and easier access to birth control leads to less precocious pregnancies and less abortions, not the other way around.
Unfortunately, on such a contentious issue as corporal punishment, those on one side of the debate are going to be an eternal frustration by those on the other. This must be accepted, for it unfortunately cannot be changed. It's just too emotionally charged.
But it CAN be changed. There are many countries where even mild corporal punishment is forbidden by law. Most of these have good sex ed, good access to birth control... and lower teen pregnancies and violent crime statistics too.
Saying it's "just too emotionally charged" is silly. It can be done, it works, and it works well.
wanders through thread
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I'll try and return this to the original topic by seguing it over from this derail.
Several people have asked, concerning the spanking issue, if the other posters have children. I take this as a typical reaction of "if you don't, then you don't now what it's like."
While I think it's a faulty position to hold, there are a lot of things you can know from theory and from observation, I wonder if this position also applies to other areas?
If it does, then one could reasonably ask: "Are you a woman who have had to make the decision about having an abortion or carry through with the pregnancy and the put then child up for adoption?"
If not, then you apparently have no say in the whole abortion discussion, if we go by the spanking reaction.
What's funny is that I actually agree with that supposition. That's why I'm pro-choice.
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Faulty equation. You can't really spank a zygote. To spank a child it would have to be born. No one is advocating killing born children.It's not so far off topic...
We've just gotten to the "It's ok to kill it, but don't spank it" part of the discussion.
I do however advocate spanking zygotes, dang misbehaving zygotes
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Male announcer: The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.
Female announcer: The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.
Male announcer: The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.
Female announcer:No, the white zone is for loading of passengers and there is no stopping in a RED zone.
Male announcer:The red zone has always been for loading and unloading of passengers. There's never stopping in a white zone.
Female announcer: Don't you tell me which zone is for loading, and which zone is for stopping!
Male announcer:Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
Male announcer: There's just no stopping in a white zone.
Female announcer: Oh really, Vernon? Why pretend, we both know perfectly well what this is about. You want me to have an abortion.
Male announcer: It's really the only sensible thing to do, if its done safely. Therapeutically there's no danger involved.
Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
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Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
Yes because if I favor spanking I must think all law is right and good. Actually, I think that thinking like that is turning our society into Volgons and if said law was passed, I would ignore it. Much like the women who still want an abortion will still get it, but will be forced to get it from an unsafe source.
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Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
You still misunderstand the statement. Each side will continue to be frustrated by the other regardless of what measures are taken. The one who does not get their way will be frustrated with the side that did. Currently, the anti group is frustrated that there is no ban. Should a ban occur, the pro side will be frustrated.
Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
Live in fear? Come on, get real! NOBODY on this thread proposed the intillation of fear as an education tool.
What IS certain :
1) you have your point of view, which I respect. I wish things were as simple, but...
2) all kids are different. Some of them are real nice and will never ever push the matter after a scolding and a good explanation, and end up growing as responsible adults. Some will turn out as full-blown brats knowing no limits. It's hard to tell beforehand.
3) I am glad to know you always manage your three years old daughter using only verbal, non violent means. Really. Unfortunately, we will have to wait for years to know the end result of this (or if you can maintain this policy during her soon-to-happen opposition phase).
4) on the other hand, I do know a method which worked fine with me and my brothers during all our childhood and ended with well-adapted adults, thank you... As I am not in the mood for experiments on my kids, I use proven means (again, as rarely as possible, with restraint, and only in last recourse).
5) we won't ever be able to agree on this.
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Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.Live in fear? Come on, get real! NOBODY on this thread proposed the intillation of fear as an education tool.
What IS certain :
1) you have your point of view, which I respect. I wish things were as simple, but...
2) all kids are different. Some of them are real nice and will never ever push the matter after a scolding and a good explanation, and end up growing as responsible adults. Some will turn out as full-blown brats knowing no limits. It's hard to tell beforehand.
3) I am glad to know you always manage your three years old daughter using only verbal, non violent means. Really. Unfortunately, we will have to wait for years to know the end result of this (or if you can maintain this policy during her soon-to-happen opposition phase).
4) on the other hand, I do know a method which worked fine with me and my brothers during all our childhood and ended with well-adapted adults, thank you... As I am not in the mood for experiments on my kids, I use proven means (again, as rarely as possible, with restraint, and only in last recourse).
5) we won't ever be able to agree on this.
+V
But it CAN be changed. There are many countries where even mild corporal punishment is forbidden by law. Most of these have good sex ed, good access to birth control... and lower teen pregnancies and violent crime statistics too.
Yep, mostly in Scandinavia, and recently in Spain (at home; in school the prohibition is way more widepread).
I don't know for Scandinavia, but in Spain the law is only symbolic. That is, it's not enforced.
Wrong.
Wrong in terms of your personal theoretical construct -- which does not map to reality 100% (nor does anyone else's for that matter, on this issue, as there isn't enough solid research). It's not "wrong" in terms of an absolute value, which you seem intent on giving it; you are not the sole holy recipient of the One Perfect Truth.
Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
Preposterous.
EDIT: The thing that actually worries me the most Sissyl, is that you seem to have a great heart. You see spanking as an emotional loss of control and violent outburst, when it really isn't. That's cool.
I'm worried because as a child grows, it tests it boundaries, learning and trying to find it's place. She will eventually learn how to push your buttons, and one day, whether out of desperation or frustration, you will spank your child, but because it was never an acceptable tool for discipline before taht point, it will be out of anger when it happens.
I hope this doesn't happen, but I've seen it many times.
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Male announcer: The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.
Female announcer: The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the red zone.
Male announcer: The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone.
Female announcer:No, the white zone is for loading of passengers and there is no stopping in a RED zone.
Male announcer:The red zone has always been for loading and unloading of passengers. There's never stopping in a white zone.
Female announcer: Don't you tell me which zone is for loading, and which zone is for stopping!
Male announcer:Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone s&%@ again.
Male announcer: There's just no stopping in a white zone.
Female announcer: Oh really, Vernon? Why pretend, we both know perfectly well what this is about. You want me to have an abortion.
Male announcer: It's really the only sensible thing to do, if its done safely. Therapeutically there's no danger involved.
One of my favorite parts of one of my favorite movies.
Living in Scandinavia, I can tell you that it's bloody well real and pretty far from symbolic. You spank your child so anyone sees it, it's highly likely you would be reported to the police by many or all of them. This is something the police would answer sharply to. Even holding your child roughly gets worried, studious looks.
Certainly, there are people who still use corporal punishment in their own homes. It's certainly not impossible to do, nor would I want a society where it was. However, where there are witnesses, children are almost always assured of people checking in on them if things look rough.
Frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way. The law against corporal punishment was instituted in 1974. The situation before that feels very much like a different, uglier time, and does so to most of my generation.
Regarding my son, I have been through a lot of his opposition phase. Yes, I have been very angry with him a few times. Not once did the thought of spanking or hitting him occur to me. I very much doubt it is going to in the future.
And regarding living in fear and how nobody advocated that: "I don't think spanking should be a frequent tool of discipline; but that being said, I think a lot of kids need to know that there is an discipline option at your disposal that they live in some amount of fear of that can come out." - Dire Mongoose, just up the thread.
Nonono, I am not the sole recipient of the One Perfect Truth. There are many others who think like I do. =)
Wrong. Since most of the pro-punishment people are very lawful-minded (all law will fall if children are not taught to live in fear of their parents, no less), not a single one of them will be able to pretend they are doing good by spanking their children anymore. End of frustration in this particular discussion. Others will replace it, but not this one.
I try to ensure my children live in fear of me. What else are children for?