Pardon me if this has been mentioned, but I didn't read all 9 pages.
In concept part of what you propose is very similar to Vile Damage from the Book of Vile Darkness. Vile damage was damage inflicted by certains spells that basically had spell resistance to cure spells. Vile damage inflicted by a high level enemy could be very hard to cure.
That being said, I hate how the cure spells pretty much eliminate the need for the heal skill. If I were adapting this to my game I would have critical hits, and maybe certain special weapon properties or special attacks inflict injuries. Injuries are HP damage that can only be healed by a cure spell applied with a successful heal check(DC equal to 10 + the injury amount). This seems like a great lightweight way of implementing the vitality and wounds rules.
I agree that it makes logical sense. That was quite a slip-up with regeneration there, too. My main problem is that trying to take people down without injuring them causes them to be injured when otherwise they would not have been. Perhaps I'm over-reacting to a relatively small issue.
What are we doing about starvation, heat damage and similar again? It seems like one could heal their starvation damage by resting for 5 minutes and hot environments injure you. Both scenarios seem pretty wrong to me.
I hate how the cure spells pretty much eliminate the need for the heal skill. If I were adapting this to my game I would have critical hits, and maybe certain special weapon properties or special attacks inflict injuries. Injuries are HP damage that can only be healed by a cure spell applied with a successful heal check(DC equal to 10 + the injury amount). This seems like a great lightweight way of implementing the vitality and wounds rules.
Limiting cure spells to just Strain damage is something I have privately considered. I think it would have a huge effect on gameplay and the setting if implemented. It might be interesting... but it doesn't get past the wall I put between what I think is cool and what goes into this rule variant.
On the plus side, with the Strain-Injury variant as written, it is much easier for a party of martial-type characters to get by without magical support (be it a caster or potions and wands). A character with the Heal skill can treat Injuries, but it is a little more "realistic" in that it is very difficult to eliminate Injury damage quickly with the Heal skill alone. Still, I feel that Heal is more useful under these rules than it has ever been.
What are we doing about starvation, heat damage and similar again? It seems like one could heal their starvation damage by resting for 5 minutes and hot environments injure you. Both scenarios seem pretty wrong to me.
Excellent catch.
My first impulse is to make those types of damage into Injury. Discuss!
A change I considered as a possible addition to this rule is having cure spells turn injury into strain.
EDIT: Discuss environmental effects, you say? As you wish. It doesn't seem like much environmental damage should be injuring you. Instead, I would rule that if an environmental effect is non-lethal, you can't recover from strain in the usual way until it stops hurting you. Alternatively, you could just make it all injury, which neatly covers falling into the bargain but also makes fire, acid etc injurious.
My main problem is that trying to take people down without injuring them causes them to be injured when otherwise they would not have been.
I'm not sure what you mean here. If the Boxer knocks you out, you're merely unconscious, because although Shank was trying to kill you his blows never drew blood... he just made it easier for the Boxer. Even if Shank critted you some time before the boxer knocked you out, you're still not dying — you're Unconscious with some Injury damage.
But yes, if the Boxer is trying to subdue you and Shank's trying to kill you... that works to Shank's advantage for dealing the final blow. I don't find a problem with that, because fighting two people is hard, and it makes sense to me.
Perhaps I'm over-reacting to a relatively small issue.
We have reached a point where the small issues are being deal with. I want GMs who adopt this rule to rest easy knowing that it has been fully smoke-tested and won't embarrass them during a game. All of your contributions have been awesome.
A change I considered as a possible addition to this rule is having cure spells turn injury into strain.
Hooo.... That would seriously change the combat utility of healing spells. Does it still heal Strain after all Injury is converted?
My main problem is that trying to take people down without injuring them causes them to be injured when otherwise they would not have been.I'm not sure what you mean here. If the Boxer knocks you out, you're merely unconscious, because although Shank was trying to kill you his blows never drew blood... he just made it easier for the Boxer. Even if Shank critted you some time before the boxer knocked you out, you're still not dying — you're Unconscious with some Injury damage.
But yes, if the Boxer is trying to subdue you and Shank's trying to kill you... that works to Shank's advantage for dealing the final blow. I don't find a problem with that, because fighting two people is hard, and it makes sense to me.
We have reached a point where the small issues are being deal with. I want GMs who adopt this rule to rest easy knowing that it has been fully smoke-tested and won't embarrass them during a game. All of your contributions have been awesome.Perhaps I'm over-reacting to a relatively small issue.
Thanks man. :)
My issue is only that the barbarian wouldn't have killed his victim if it weren't for the non-lethal damage. The more I think about it though, the more I think the rule is ok how it is in that regard.
About the healing house rule: The idea is that one could cure strain in combat as normal, but injury would be downgraded instead of removed, and therefore would be best healed during the 5 minute downtime between encounters. It would also of course cause much bother because an injured character's hp would be much harder to raise during a fight.
No you don't. We like ninjaing you. :p
EDIT: I think I know how to do the environmental damage clause. We should add a line to the rules for recovering from strain saying that you're not resting if you're suffering periodical/continuous damage. It should apply to ALL strain, so you don't recover at all by frying yourself on the desert sand.
MULTIEDIT: Think about it, that would add an interesting new dimension to the rule. It would allow a GM to temporarily turn off strain-recovery by making 5 minute rests the enemy. Nasty!
This thread's on fire today. Cool.
No you don't. We like ninjaing you. :p
EDIT: I think I know how to do the environmental damage clause. We should add a line to the rules for recovering from strain saying that you're not resting if you're suffering periodical/continuous damage. It should apply to ALL strain, so you don't recover at all by frying yourself on the desert sand.
That's an excellent idea. I'll let people respond for a while and then probably add that in.
Awesome. Glad you like it. Not sure how it should be worded though.
I think it belongs in the conditions for rest and refit. Rest and refit probably needs its own section.
Probably, yes.
First whack:
Rest and Refit
If a creature has sustained Strain damage during an encounter, this damage can be recovered with a rest and refit. The creature must have about five minutes where they are not threatened by further encounters, nor suffering additional Strain through thirst, starvation, or extreme heat or cold. During this time, characters regain their composure, perform minor armor and weapon repairs, and catch their breath.A creature may tend to another’s Injury damage through use of magic or the Heal skill during the rest and refit without compromising their own recovery.
As a general rule, if the rest and refit is interrupted, characters should regain only half of their Strain damage.
I've added some dodgy stuff in there. Let's chew on it.
That's an excellent idea. I'll let people respond for a while and then probably add that in.No you don't. We like ninjaing you. :p
EDIT: I think I know how to do the environmental damage clause. We should add a line to the rules for recovering from strain saying that you're not resting if you're suffering periodical/continuous damage. It should apply to ALL strain, so you don't recover at all by frying yourself on the desert sand.
Its already in your rules: you can't benefit from rest if you are interrupted by an attack.
A person being expose to cold and taking damage every hour is continuously under attack, except that the severity of the continuous damage doesn't force a save every round. Nevertheless, you are still being "attacked" by cold during every second. Same goes for starvation, endurance running etc.
My only concerns are that it calls out specific environmental threats rather than things that cause damage over time in general and that it lets you get half your strain back for an interrupted rest (which seems like a minor complication and sounds exploitable. Nobody wants people trying to claim half their HP back for spending 10 seconds out of initiative tracking).
Yeah, the exploit. We can make it all-or-nothing (simple) or assign some kind of recovery rate.
Personally, I think the all-or-nothing method is better. Although it is a less convincing simulation, it nods to the ultimate truth that the party recovers when the GM says they have a break between encounters.
A recovery rate would encourage a kind of play for players and GMs that just kinda bums me out. "Oh, you stop to rest and you're attacked by a rest-monster, who feeds on mortals' desire to take five..."
But, I freely admit that a hard recovery rate seems more like it belongs in Pathfinder RPG. What do you all think?
I hate how the cure spells pretty much eliminate the need for the heal skill. If I were adapting this to my game I would have critical hits, and maybe certain special weapon properties or special attacks inflict injuries. Injuries are HP damage that can only be healed by a cure spell applied with a successful heal check(DC equal to 10 + the injury amount). This seems like a great lightweight way of implementing the vitality and wounds rules.Limiting cure spells to just Strain damage is something I have privately considered. I think it would have a huge effect on gameplay and the setting if implemented. It might be interesting... but it doesn't get past the wall I put between what I think is cool and what goes into this rule variant.
On the plus side, with the Strain-Injury variant as written, it is much easier for a party of martial-type characters to get by without magical support (be it a caster or potions and wands). A character with the Heal skill can treat Injuries, but it is a little more "realistic" in that it is very difficult to eliminate Injury damage quickly with the Heal skill alone. Still, I feel that Heal is more useful under these rules than it has ever been.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. Cure spell can be used to treat injuries, but it requires a heal check to do it successfully.
So, strain can be cured as normal HP damage.
Injuries can be healed like normal HP damage(rest or cure spells), but it requires a successful heal check.
I was also thinking about critical hits. I would make the base damage of the critical an injury, and the bonus damage would be counted as a strain.
Charender, I think that unless your additional rule absolutely needs a change to work, crits should remain 100% injury. It makes injury more scary, more serious and easier to track without being in the least bit harsh.
I say laurefindel has a good point about environmental damage falling under attacks. The best way to handle them would be to clarify that they really are a kind of attack for the purposes of recovery.
I think that this will work much better without a recovery rate. It's just easier. All or nothing for me. Using a change of pace or scene as a marker works in 4E and white wolf rpgs without the slightest hitch.
Charender, I think that unless your additional rule absolutely needs a change to work, crits should remain 100% injury. It makes injury more scary, more serious and easier to track without being in the least bit harsh.
I say laurefindel has a good point about environmental damage falling under attacks. The best way to handle them would be to clarify that they really are a kind of attack for the purposes of recovery.
I think that this will work much better without a recovery rate. It's just easier. All or nothing for me. Using a change of pace or scene as a marker works in 4E and white wolf rpgs without the slightest hitch.
It needs the change if you are going to require a heal check to heal the damage.
A level 5 player gets crit with a +1 Comp longbow with a +4 strength mod, deadly aim(-2/+4), and point blank shot. That is a 3d8 + 18 injury for an average of 31.5 damage. At 10 + injury amount, you have a DC 41 heal check which is pretty much impossible at level 5. DC41 would be difficult for even a level 10 or 15 to heal.
The change I suggest is necessary if you add the rule requiring heal check to heal injuries. With the change, the crit would do 1d8 + 6 = 10.5 average injury and 2d8 + 12 = 21 strain. That is a DC 20 heal check which isn't exactly easy for a level 5 to make.
If you really wanted to make x3 and x4 weapons scarier, then making the base damage strain and the bonus damage injury would be pretty nasty.
So what variants on the variant have we come up with so far? I count:
-Fatigue-based injury penalties
-Injuries requiring a heal check to cure with magic
-Injuries being turned into strain by magic whenever they'd be cured
If we get many more, they'll merit a section in the document, methinks.
Charender, I think that unless your additional rule absolutely needs a change to work, crits should remain 100% injury. It makes injury more scary, more serious and easier to track without being in the least bit harsh.
I say laurefindel has a good point about environmental damage falling under attacks. The best way to handle them would be to clarify that they really are a kind of attack for the purposes of recovery.
I think that this will work much better without a recovery rate. It's just easier. All or nothing for me. Using a change of pace or scene as a marker works in 4E and white wolf rpgs without the slightest hitch.
It needs the change if you are going to require a heal check to heal the damage.
A level 5 player gets crit with a +1 Comp longbow with a +4 strength mod, deadly aim(-2/+4), and point blank shot. That is a 3d8 + 18 injury for an average of 31.5 damage. At 10 + injury amount, you have a DC 41 heal check which is pretty much impossible at level 5. DC41 would be difficult for even a level 10 or 15 to heal.
The change I suggest is necessary if you add the rule requiring heal check to heal injuries. With the change, the crit would do 1d8 + 6 = 10.5 average injury and 2d8 + 12 = 21 strain. That is a DC 20 heal check which isn't exactly easy for a level 5 to make.
If you really wanted to make x3 and x4 weapons scarier, then making the base damage strain and the bonus damage injury would be pretty nasty.
Actually, after pondering it a bit, I could make the DC of the heal check 10 + half the injury damage. Then the injuries could be equal to the full crit damage with no issues.
Another idea.
Aggravating
Aura Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, cause light wounds; Price +2 bonus.
Description
An aggravating weapon causes wounds that are difficult to heal. Half of the weapons strain damage is considered injury damage.
Aggrivating arrows would be lots of fun.
That's a good point and probably for the best. I prefer it.
Took me second to figure out why Mortuum was having a discussion with himself...
Welcome Charender!
On the issue of healing magic requiring a heal check - it CAN slow the game down... A LOT. If the barbarian has a 40 injury hit, the only thing that is gonna fix him is a week of bedrest before the injuries drop down to something within the range of DC that can be managed.
If you want gritty recovery then this is for you but otherwise? It can be a game breaker if player expectations are in the opposite direction and most adventures are written with the premise that characters will have access to healing and be able to move at a fast pace without needing to spend a week in bed.
May I suggest 2 things if you want this as an optional rule?
Make the Injury the DC. Not 10+half etc. Just flat - its simple. Its the power of the gods! They bypass that 10 part. A 20 point injury is merely DC20. Challenging enough.
The other is to allow casters the OPTION of using the casters level as a bonus to the DC and removed from the result. So a Cure Light Wounds cast by a 5th level cleric does D8+5. The caster can choose to make it a flat D8 and use the +5 to the DC.
I am not one for ALL or Nothing - ie you must completely heal the injury.
It the cleric hasn't invested in the heal skill, then yes, it will slow the game down a lot. But a level 10 cleric could be looking at 20 wisdom with 10 ranks in heal. That is a +18 heal check against a DC of 10 + (40 / 2) = 30. You need a 12 or better on your heal check when you apply a cure spell. That is without any circumstance bonuses(MW tools, bed rest, aid another, etc). Worst case scenario, the cleric has to burn 3 cure light wounds spells for 1 to be successful. After they get one successful cure off, the amount of the injury is reduced by the amount healed and the DC of the heal check goes down.
Also, as far as the heal check is concerned, the DC should be based on the worst injury only. Maybe you could add +2 to the DC for each additional injury. So 3 6 point injuries would be a DC of 10 + 6/2 +2 +2 = 17 to heal. Injuries from starvation or suffocation would be treated as a single injury.
Another idea: Injuries from massive damage.
A replacement for the death from massive damage rule. Any damage in excess of 50 points from a single hit becomes injury damage. Makes it a lot harder for a fighter to fall 3 miles and walk away like nothing happened.
Here is the condensed version of the heal check rules.
Healing Injury Damage requires a heal check.
Any time a healing effect(either from an ability or from rest) is applied to a character with injury damage, make a heal check. The DC of the heal check is equal to 10 + half of the amount of the worst injury. Add 2 to the DC for every other injury the character has. If the check suceeds, reduce the value of the worst injury by the amount healed. If the check fails, then the healing can only be used to heal strain damage.
Overall, you have a bit more bookkeeping because you have to track each injury separately, but I think it adds a nice tough of realism to the HP system. This to me is what the grim and gritty variant rules in 3.5 should have been.
Food for thought?
Maiming in lieu of Killing
Characters may use the Coup-De Grace action (with all the limitations therein) to remove or crush a limb instead of killing the opponent. The attack is treated as a critical hit, and if the opponent fails a DC15 Fort Save they die as if from Coup-De-Grace, by passing the save they lose the limb but survive. It’s not an often used option, but it does provide an alternative that can only be rectified by regeneration.The GM may also use this option for wild beasts or to reflect combat trauma while keeping the character alive.
Some potential ideas.
Normally, I hate how hit locations slow the game down, but since injuries are a not so common event, and already require extra bookkeeping maybe injuries should have a hit location. A large enough injury to a specific location renders that location crippled until the injury is healed. Head injuries put you in a coma. Chest injuries paralyze you. Limb injuries cripple you.
CDG specifically lets you choose the location of the injury. Called shots are not a game breaker because they only cause injuries if they crit.
Combine this is the earlier stuff about injuries causing penalties, and you could have a fun system that adds a nice touch of reaqlism to the HP system without completely shredding it the way some of the alternate HP systems do.
Normally, I hate how hit locations slow the game down, but since injuries are a not so common event, and already require extra bookkeeping maybe injuries should have a hit location. A large enough injury to a specific location renders that location crippled until the injury is healed. Head injuries put you in a coma. Chest injuries paralyze you. Limb injuries cripple you.
This is similar to how I intend to do it in my campaign. However, I find that hit location in d20 systems is best left fluid and in the GM's hands. For starters, every attack form has its own different and interesting subset of possible injury descriptions, and furthermore every creature has it's own crazy ass configuration that can have very important consequences for hit location (like a tail or wings).
In a anthropocentric campaign or ruleset, though, it could maybe make sense to standardize this stuff into a rule. Just food for thought.
PS — Still hoping to hear analysis for some of those remaining corner cases before I update the doc. If there's something in the doc that's unfinished or missing, discuss!
Normally, I hate how hit locations slow the game down, but since injuries are a not so common event, and already require extra bookkeeping maybe injuries should have a hit location. A large enough injury to a specific location renders that location crippled until the injury is healed. Head injuries put you in a coma. Chest injuries paralyze you. Limb injuries cripple you.This is similar to how I intend to do it in my campaign. However, I find that hit location in d20 systems is best left fluid and in the GM's hands. For starters, every attack form has its own different and interesting subset of possible injury descriptions, and furthermore every creature has it's own crazy ass configuration that can have very important consequences for hit location (like a tail or wings).
In a anthropocentric campaign or ruleset, though, it could maybe make sense to standardize this stuff into a rule. Just food for thought.
PS — Still hoping to hear analysis for some of those remaining corner cases before I update the doc. If there's something in the doc that's unfinished or missing, discuss!
Yeah, I intentionally left it vague as to how to adjudicate the hit location.
Aslo, if you use hit locations, you can tie penalties to the injury locations. An injured arm? -1 to hit. Injured leg? -5 move. Injured chest? -1 to all physical skills. Injured head? -1 to all mental skill checks. Just throwing out ideas, definately not concrete.
Aslo, if you use hit locations, you can tie penalties to the injury locations. An injured arm? -1 to hit. Injured leg? -5 move. Injured chest? -1 to all physical skills. Injured head? -1 to all mental skill checks. Just throwing out ideas, definately not concrete.
This kind of thinking is great to keep in mind for people using Strain-Injury but not using damage penalties of any sort. At its basic level, the loss of HP is modeling a defensive penalty. So a character who suffers an Injury to his arm is already being modeled as easier to kill-shot because of the loss of defense in having a broken arm. Likewise, even strain damage like having your shield batted out of the way last turn can be a very descriptive way of paying service to these details, all without getting bogged down comparing numbers.
That is my favorite part about all of the work we've done here: the rule itself encourages GMs to be descriptive and to adapt their description to the specific combatants and turns of the dice. I find it very exciting, and it makes me want to play. That's how I know it's good.
(not in any way meant to discourage the damage penalty discussion)
Another thing that I have tried to work into my PF house rules that seems to work with these rules.
The golden hour. How you treat an injury during the first hour after the injury is recieved has a huge effect on recovery. Shadowrun has a rule that models this, and I have always struggled with porting that rule over to PF, but with these injury rules it seems easier.
The golden hour trauma treatment.
Make a heal check against the DC of the injury as normal for applying healing. If successful, treat the results of the heal check as if a cure light wounds spell with a caster level equal to amount by which you exceed the heal check. For every 5 full points by which you exceed the DC, increase the cure spell by one spell level(5 = cure moderate, 10 = cure serious, etc). This healing can only be applied once for a given set of injuries, and must be applied within 60 minutes of the injuries being recieved.
Aslo, if you use hit locations, you can tie penalties to the injury locations. An injured arm? -1 to hit. Injured leg? -5 move. Injured chest? -1 to all physical skills. Injured head? -1 to all mental skill checks. Just throwing out ideas, definately not concrete.This kind of thinking is great to keep in mind for people using Strain-Injury but not using damage penalties of any sort. At its basic level, the loss of HP is modeling a defensive penalty. So a character who suffers an Injury to his arm is already being modeled as easier to kill-shot because of the loss of defense in having a broken arm. Likewise, even strain damage like having your shield batted out of the way last turn can be a very descriptive way of paying service to these details, all without getting bogged down comparing numbers.
That is my favorite part about all of the work we've done here: the rule itself encourages GMs to be descriptive and to adapt their description to the specific combatants and turns of the dice. I find it very exciting, and it makes me want to play. That's how I know it's good.
(not in any way meant to discourage the damage penalty discussion)
I agree that the loss of strain is an inherent defensive penalty. It is the lack of offensive penalties due to injuries that I find unrealistic. What i like is that you can make it so that only injuries cause offensive penalties.
As for the excitement, I agree. I really loved the idea behind the Grim and Gritty rules variants in 3.5, but I found they were just too messy in actual game play. I like this idea because it is simple, and you can scale the complexity by which house rules you allow.
I think the rule as it stands makes characters take strain for wading through lava. I'm pretty sure that's silly.
I can see the falling working ok as we have it, because once you're awesome enough to survive that, I don't mind if things start working like an anime or a superhero comic in certain ways, but non-injurous lava is a step too far for me.
EDIT: I may have it people. My brother suggests adding inevitable damage to the list of sources that cause injury. If there's no chance of avoiding at least some of the damage, it's considered as bad as though you'd failed the save you never got the chance to take. That seems logical and consistent to me.
I think the rule as it stands makes characters take strain for wading through lava. I'm pretty sure that's silly.
I can see the falling working ok as we have it, because once you're awesome enough to survive that, I don't mind if things start working like an anime or a superhero comic in certain ways, but non-injurous lava is a step too far for me.EDIT: I may have it people. My brother suggests adding inevitable damage to the list of sources that cause injury. If there's no chance of avoiding at least some of the damage, it's considered as bad as though you'd failed the save you never got the chance to take. That seems logical and consistent to me.
Laurefindel had this covered, somewhere on page 2-4.
This is also why we have a specific list for what Strain represents. If you're taking strain damage from something that should clearly cause staggering amounts of Injury damage, it isn't a failure of the system to define Injury; rather, it's even more important that the damage is only strain. Without that concession, we're right back to people surviving impossible amounts of damage.
In the case of wading through lava, something occurs that deals the strain damage instead. Maybe the character leapfrogs from one bit of not-yet-molten rock to another. Maybe the spring off of an adjacent wall. Anything the GM can come up with.
People do sometimes survive physical contact with lava. I don't know if anyone has ever survived immersion in lava, at least not to the extent implied by the rules. Those who have are irrevocably maimed. It is that much more important, therefore, to describe the damage as plausible rather than converting it to injury.
I do think that the GM should retain the right to say "inevitable injury" — but if there's one thing I've learned over the course of the thread, it's that something being really deadly is not sufficient to make it deal Injury damage. Strain isn't nonlethal damage that tries to not hurt the character, it is the character narrowly avoiding the horrible deadly thing at a personal cost.
For most people, it will seem like certain attack forms should "deal injury" and certain attack forms should "deal strain" — but that's a misconception of the central tenet of Strain-Injury.
A sword will kill you just as quickly as lava. Maybe quicker, depending on where you're hit. Both deal Strain if you somehow avoid that fate.
(thanks 'findel. I hope I did it justice.)
*brandishes his horse-flogging whip*
Let's say someone with 100 HP becomes totally immersed in lava for an average of 70hp per round (no save).
Would you rather claim that a PC was totally submerged in lava and then lived? (we presume he made his save)
Or would we rather say that the game always intended this to be the "turn a serious blow into a lesser one" application of hit points?
As I GM, my preference will always be the latter. Complete destruction of footwear is a totally covered by the strain definition too.
Interestingly, I have run the Setpiece module from Legacy of Fire #2 using these rules. The vast majority of lava interactions in the game don't involve the player getting pitched bodily into the stuff... usually there is room for them to grab a ledge or wall-spring. It is definitely possible for the GM to get backed into a corner descriptively when it comes to lava, but I comfort myself with the knowledge that such cases are pretty rare.
*Goes off to add Lava to the Damage Interpretation section of the doc*
EDIT: I may have it people. My brother suggests adding inevitable damage to the list of sources that cause injury.Laurefindel had this covered, somewhere on page 2-4.
This is also why we have a specific list for what Strain represents. If you're taking strain damage from something that should clearly cause staggering amounts of Injury damage, it isn't a failure of the system to define Injury; rather, it's even more important that the damage is only strain. Without that concession, we're right back to people surviving impossible amounts of damage.
I do think that the GM should retain the right to say "inevitable injury" — but if there's one thing I've learned over the course of the thread, it's that something being really deadly is not sufficient to make it deal Injury damage.
Yes, Evil Lincoln summarized my thoughts precisely (emphasis mine).
Wading through lava is really deadly. Falling from the 5th floor is really deadly. Getting a sword through your kidneys is also really deadly. Lethal damage, as a general rule, is really deadly.
I don't like to use the word "realism", but in therms of believability and immersion into this fantastical world, a character shouldn't survive really deadly attacks without grave consequences. Yet D&D/Pathfinder possesses as system of hit points that allows a character to survive such really deadly attacks. Evil Lincoln went further and expanded on the "turn a serious blow into a lesser one" definition of hit points, and such is the keystone of the whole strain-injury system (feels so good to be able to name this properly!).
Thus a really deadly attack can be turned into a not-so-deadly one. Now this I can buy without blowing my suspension of disbelief! Wading through lava and survive; hard to believe. Skating on your shield and solidified lava chunks to avoid immersion; a bit Hollywoodian but acceptable (at 20d6 points of damage per round, if you managed to survive that without taking injury, you're unlikely to last long). From a mechanical perspective: the character has lost hit points. From a narrative perspective: The character has managed to avoid a horrible death (for the moment).
It doesn't matter how deadly the attack is; hits points allow you to turn a serious blow into a less serious one. But this is a finite resource; once you've run out of hit points, you're toasted. If a DM feels that some damage shouldn't be strain-able - then he/she should enforce a saving throw (possibly a hard one). If the player fails, damage is injury; it's in the rules. If it otherwise fails the three conditions, all kinds of attacks should be avoidable with strain damage, even (and especially) really deadly ones.
'findel
[edit] note that this doesn't change anything from RaW. Evil Lincoln's rule is in essence, a houserule about healing lost hit points.
[edit2] My personal interpretation of wading through lava.
Player - I'm wading through lava to get to the other side.
DM - Are you nuts! You can't expect to wade through lava and live!
Player - Fine. There must be some crust and chunks that I can hop on, you know, frogger style?
DM - Dude, contact with lava is 2d6 points of damage per round!
Player - It's either that or 2d8+12 points of damage per round from our "friend" the giant here!
DM - Alright. Reflex save DC 25. Success and you still get full damage, but it will be strain...
That does address one problem with lava, but that's not really what I meant. I don't think wading in lava is "too damaging" to be merely straining.
From a mechanical point of view, I think if the GM says "And you don't even get a save!" that should be strictly worse for the player than even a really difficult save.
From a descriptive consistency point of view, It seems crazy to me that if somebody gets a save to avoid the acid jet and fails it, he gets injured, but if that same person is shackled to a table and has the same acid poured over him, he can't be harmed in any lasting way until he's suddenly brought to the verge of death.
In Laurfindel's example, the GM is improvising to make the rule make sense. That's probably a pretty good idea in the circumstances, but what if the player had no bright ideas and just said "Screw it, I'm a Rage Prophet! I'll get over it!" and went wading through up to his knees?
If strain means lessening the blow, surely you must get injured if you do nothing to lessen the blow? Whether that's because its impossible or because you just don't do it for some reason. Otherwise, strain simply isn't what it claims to be.
From a descriptive consistency point of view, It seems crazy to me that if somebody gets a save to avoid the acid jet and fails it, he gets injured, but if that same person is shackled to a table and has the same acid poured over him, he can't be harmed in any lasting way until he's suddenly brought to the verge of death.
Don't get me wrong, getting showered in acid and waltz without a blister seems just as crazy to me.
But the acid doesn't have to be poured over the guy that made its save; that's the whole point of the save. Perhaps the character raised his shield just in time, perhaps she dodged the acid altogether, perhaps most of it gnawed at her leather jerkin or the tabard covering his armour etc. In the end, the character spent resources (hit points) to avoid injuries, but otherwise remains mostly unscathed.
So far, this doesn't yet concern Evil Lincoln's rule; this is all by RaW (given the description of saving throws and hit points). Evil Lincoln's Strain-Injury rule simply addresses the "but if I'm left mostly unscathed, why will it take me 5 days to recover naturally from this non-injury?" issue with the system as RaW. That's why I keep saying that the Strain-Injury rule is in essence, a natural healing rule.
'findel
Excellent discussion. Mort, you are very smartly poking holes, keep it up.
So far, this doesn't yet concern Evil Lincoln's rule; this is all by RaW (given the description of saving throws and hit points). Evil Lincoln's Strain-Injury rule simply addresses the "but if I'm left mostly unscathed, why will it take me 5 days to recover naturally from this non-injury?" issue with the system as RaW. That's why I keep saying that the Strain-Injury rule is in essence, a natural healing rule.
He's right. As much as it bothers me to resort to this defense of the rule, .
The rule is a healing rate rule. In the RAW, you take your 20d6, and then without magical healing you're back to perfect health in a week. We'd all love to see a rule that leaves a character with charred stumps — but that's the place for a damage penalty variant, or a maiming variant. Here we're just working with the game's basic assumptions about damage — damage isn't localized, and damage doesn't affect performance. We've fixed healing pretty well in that context, but it can only go so far.
I do support the GM's right to say "injury damage, no save". My problem is that most GMs will start reaching for this right away, because it is hard to shake the old paradigm of damage type resulting from attack deadliness. At the moment, I think the safest thing to do it leave it at Rule 0 — but even then we probably still need to cover this in Meta-Game Analysis to prevent GMs from making knee-jerk changes.
I had another post at the bottom of the last page.
From a descriptive consistency point of view, It seems crazy to me that if somebody gets a save to avoid the acid jet and fails it, he gets injured, but if that same person is shackled to a table and has the same acid poured over him, he can't be harmed in any lasting way until he's suddenly brought to the verge of death.
I am being evasive about your very solid point — but even automated acid pouring systems in the Pathfinder RPG typically have an attack roll. A well designed system would have a very good attack roll, and a better chance to crit.
Beyond that, my recourse as a GM would be to armor (if any), superficial burns (only if armor was in the picture), super-spy device negation techniques (underrepresented mechanically), and dumb luck. In that order.
If it came to dumb luck — someone forgot to refill the acid vat. Take the strain damage from emotional suspense and know that you won't be so lucky a second time.