What counts as a sin, and what is just being picky?

[godsDMit]

I started with the list of 'sins' the pcs commit through the game at the beginning of Burnt Offerings. A few are still, more or less, sinless, while others Ive given 3 or 4 each, in various sins.

So Im wondering if Im being too picky on how I pick them.

Examples:
Character going to the Whore house multiple times, and referring to them as 'my ladies'. Ive given him 2 points in Lust so far.

Character killing a goblin, even when it was trying to surrender. Wrath point.

Character not 'sharing the wealth' with magical items. Saying he should get the +1 longsword (Koruvus), +1 Shield (Orik, instead of his armor), and +1 Ring of Protection (Tsuto), since 'Im the one who gets attacked the most'. At least one greed point here. If he keeps it up, maybe a second.

Player constantly talking about how much harder his character is going to be to kill now that he's level 'x', cause of whatever new ability/spell. Pride point? Maybe?

So what do you think? Am I being too picky? What do you think is going too far?

[Stereofm]

godsDMit wrote:

So Im wondering if Im being too picky on how I pick them.

1 Looks appropriate to me. Maybe not even enough.

2 Depends. What has the gobmlin done before ?
3 Yes
4 MMM... Does the CHARACTER acts this way ? If so, yes. If not, then no.

YMMV of course.

[wspatterson]

That all looks appropriate. I'd give that last guy a point for pride.

[godsDMit]

1. Hes only gone there twice so far, but Im gonna keep a running tally. If he keeps it up, and they are away for awhile, I think he might come back to town to find a hooker with a kid who looks like him and wanting child support, lol.

2. Regular goblin things, Im sure, which may be enough to warrant a death sentence. I dont remember if this actually happened, or if they didnt kill it for awhile or whatever. BUT, he was surrendering to the paladin, who I would think would/should (as he is about law as well) be willing to accept the surrender and allow the goblin a trial.

IDK, maybe thats a 'depends on the deity' thing.

3. Probably the most annoying part of it is that he has been acting like there is nothing to do about the situation. Yes, he can use the shield and sword and no one else can as effectively, so let him use them. But anyone could wear the ring, and he is yet to offer it to someone else, even though he has about half of the magical items the party currently has.

4. Problem with that is in regular table-chatter conversation, talk flows in and out of character. Im sure most of the time a 'he is' could easily be replaced with a 'I am', but no, he hasnt gone walking around boasting in character specifically about how tough/might/pious/etc he is.

[godsDMit]

Also for #3: Obviously, a couple of the other players are annoyed at the player in question for hogging the magical items, so I think they might be getting close to some Envy points if they keep being pouty lol.
Again, that part is hard to differentiate between character gripe and player gripe.

[Old Drake]

1. I'd give him a lust point, but that's it. And no kid. Frankly the whores will know how to stay without child very well; it's critical information in their business. And I sincerely doubt that there is something like child support in Galarion, and least of all at the frontier.

2. I'm not certain here. Racial prejudices would fall under Sloth, I think. Too lazy to think about the individual and simply apply one size fits all brush to the problem, though pride could also play a role.
A for the paladin's actions; I think that depends on the law. Do goblins actually have any protection under the law? I doubt they would in most places. And even if there were, after the raid on Sandpoint and with the recovery of plans to have 200 or so goblins raid the town, it would probably be considered a war situation with kill-on-sight order on all goblins. Though kill-on-sight may even be the normal law. Remember that humans are in the region to civilize it and drive the uncivilized races out. Goblins would certainly fall in that category.
So you as DM should think long and hard about what the current laws/decrees are and tell the players before you say they violated laws. I would certainly never consider goblins protected under the law in any kingdom in any normal world.

3. I'd give point for greed and envy both. He effectively can't stand anyone having better equipment in any category than himself.

4. I believe the AP specifically mentioned that how the players act at the gaming table should be counted. Or was that in this forum? Anyway, I would let it count.

Depending on how you play, you might test players by having an NPC talk to them and praise their abilities (even overstating them ridiculously) and see how the players/character react.
Have an NPC they saved offer to cook them a delicious meal, and ask again and again if they want fifth or even tenth helpings.
Another NPC might offer sex as reward for being saved (and this virgin may well fall pregnant).
Some obviously lower class family might offer their savings as reward, even though they really could use it themselves, might even need it (if the party takes it they might hear how a member of the family starved later on, if you're feeling mean).
Sloth is probably the hardest to tempt. Maybe some overeager NPC wishing to do all menial work for them? But that really only works if you considered this kind of stuff in the game before. If the party never mentioned mending clothes, cleaning clothes, bating, cleaning weapons, and similar tasks, this would come totally out of nowhere.

[godsDMit]

1. Obviously the whores know how to keep it from happening, but the kid idea would be just for the reaction from the player. Also, I dont think the child support idea is any more ridiculous than Shayliss showing up with a lawyer claiming rights to her deceased "husband-to-be's" property, which is something Lisa Stevens (Paizo CEO) pulled on her party, I believe.

2. I wouldnt expect them to be protected under the law, though I was implying it more as a 'every creature has a right to live' sort. Also, Im not sure where you are getting the idea of 'humans are there to civilize the region and have the uncivilized leave' idea from. I dont think Ive seen anything like that. If you could point me to it though, please do.

3. The envy point might be a good idea. I'll have to keep an eye for it.

I like the idea of the virgin, though thats what I was hoping for with Shayliss, which didnt work out as I expected, though it did go well.
The starving family member is good though.

As for sloth, I made certain to get across the point that Orik was willing to help them fight Nualia, and a couple liked the idea, but they ultimately decided to tie him up and come back for him later, though they forgot him, lol. If they would have sent him in first, I would have counted that.

Sicne we are getting ready to start Skinsaw, if they decide to bring along the town guards and have them go anywhere first/alone, itll likely wind up with a sloth point as well.

Thanks for the help, guys. Any more advice or input are welcome.

[KnightErrantJR]

I miss my Rise of the Runelords PCs. They were a breeze to track sins. Especially when they left the two half-orcs alone.

[Old Drake]

godsDMit wrote:

Also, Im not sure where you are getting the idea of 'humans are there to civilize the region and have the uncivilized leave' idea from. I dont think Ive seen anything like that. If you could point me to it though, please do.

I can't remember all the sources, however the Campaign guide and this AP do hint strongly that the region is undergoing civilization (and driving uncivilized creatures like goblins, giants, and ogres out). Comments about emerging nation, fringes of civilization, and the recentness of all settlements (Sandpoint is 42 years old and Magnimar 100) are certainly indicators. I don't know if it's explicitly stated anywhere, but everything points that way.

[godsDMit]

Where do you guys draw the line on intent opposed to actions taken? If one party member really really wants to send in the guardsmen that Hemlock offers to send with the party, instead of them going themselves (for example), but the rest of the party shoots the lone PC down and doesnt use that idea, do you award that PC a point in sloth anyway? Sin is in the heart as much as the act itself (from the Christian pov, anyway) so it might be worth a point.

Personally, I probably wouldnt award it for that unless the lone party member pushed for their idea strenuously, or kept repeating the idea at multiple intervals.

[Old Drake]

I would not necessarily go just by the actions, but by the circumstances. For example sending guards/volunteers to do something when they have a quite time and are at worst eating a bite would earn a sloth point, but the same action while they rush to pursue a fleeing enemy wouldn't.
So did the character intend to be lazy or did he have something planned?

[godsDMit]

Hasnt happened yet, but when hemlock offers to send some guards with the party in Skinsaw, if the party, or the one person even, were to suggest the guards go into wherever and look around before the party enters (putting the gaurds in danger, instead of themselves) is what I was meaning.

I guess it could have worked of they had Orik go fight Nualia before they went into the room.

[EtsuElfRanger]

Old Drake wrote:

I would not necessarily go just by the actions, but by the circumstances. For example sending guards/volunteers to do something when they have a quite time and are at worst eating a bite would earn a sloth point, but the same action while they rush to pursue a fleeing enemy wouldn't.

So did the character intend to be lazy or did he have something planned?

My group has drone something similar. They've been having the npcs go into areas they're exploring first, but in their case it hasbeen because the npcs have been a little higher level than they were (ie Shalelu and Orik). Mostly out of fear instead of laziness. But once they start using the lower lvl npcs that way, they'll start earning sloth.

[Old Drake]

Well, my party were essentially strangers in town; sure they had been there for a few weeks by the time the murders happened and were well respected, but they were still outsiders. They insisted on having several guards at hand to verify that they didn't try and cover anything up (like evidence of their own involvement in the murders) and have some officials at hand in case they found a lead and wanted to search a private house. Oh, and because they wanted someone with knowledge (local:Sandpoint) at hand.
When they found the tracks on the pier they thought the stench sounded like what some kind of undead had (failed knowledge check by 1) and send a guard the cathedral to get the priests and another to spread the word.

I wouldn't say any of these actions were worth a sin point. If they had insisted to take charge of the investigation that would have been a pride point, but since the Sheriff asked them to do it, I awarded no points.

Orik wouldn't fight Nualia on his own, no matter what the party tried. But trying to get him to do it should probably get a sin point, though I'm not sure which sin fits best; more than one sin point if they keep arguing with him.
The guards would depend; is the party sending them to cover their back against possible legal challenges? Or are they expecting an attack from elsewhere and try to use the guards as bait to ambush the ambushers? Both would be fair uses; remember these people aren't civilians, they are trained guards that signed up to defend the town with their life. And some of them are very eager to proof themselves and wouldn't take kindly if they were left out of combat (even if they are in well over their head); my party insisted that the guard arm themselves with pole-arms and let the party handle the close-in work.
Even if the guards die, in most cases that would hurt their fame, but most likely not result in a sin point.
I would even let the players get away with using the guards as their melee fighters, if they don't have any themselves. Sin points would come out if they start endangering them for no reason or otherwise get reckless/negligent with them; sloth points if they use them for menial tasks without need; this is probably the hardest to define: As said above using them to get messages to the relevant people while they stay at the mill/crime scene is probably acceptable, but having them bury the corpses of several ghoul while the party stands around, laughs, and perhaps has a snack is not. If they were keeping watch in case there are other threats around, the same orders would be acceptable, though there might not be a noticeable difference in what actually happens. So you might want to start asking your players regularly why they are doing a certain action; not just with actions that you think could be worth sin points but also some random actions so that they can define their characters more. It might allow you an understanding of the characters that make the sin points obsolete as one sin just fits perfectly. Polling the players regularly for why they stay together as a group and what their characters want to achieve could also yield useful insights and should be repeated whenever something changes. At the beginning or end of each session might be a bit much, but it could also provide a good starting point to get everyone in character again.