Nerfing the Splatter Man (spoilers, DMs only)


Carrion Crown


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Players avaunt. You have been warned.

-- So, The Splatter Man. Final boss, 8th level ghost wizard with a 20 Int. He has very suboptimal spell selection, but even so he's got a ridiculous number of magic missiles, the ability to dispel magic and summon monsters, and Corrupting Touch for 8d6 of damage. Oh, and he's incorporeal and has 62 HP.

Played intelligently, against a party of 3rd level characters, he's a certain TPK. Against 4th level characters, a very likely TPK and almost certain PC death.

For details, check out this thread. If you want a detailed breakdown of how the slaughter would procced, expand here.

spoiler:
I am cut and pasting Steel Wind's excellent analysis here, from the above thread. Copyright 2011 Steel Wind, all rights reserved!

TSM has the following spells:

4th—maximized magic missile (2), empowered summon monster II
3rd—dispel magic, empowered magic missile (2)
2nd—summon monster II (4)
1st—magic missile (6)
0 (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, read magic

Played intelligently, TSM should be:

-- using detect magic and perception prior to the encounter to understand the roles and abilities of his foes. As it so happens, he gets an ample opportunity to do this while the PCs are fighting the CR6 haunt prior to TSM entering the fray. So TSM will know exactly who is who.

-- TSM should then enter the fray and cast his maximized magic missiles at the cleric.

1st round = maximized magic missile and 20 points to the cleric;
2nd round = Move incorporeally to put further objects in path of charging combatants, cast maximized magic missile again at PC cleric for 20 more points. This may or may not kill the cleric, depending on whether or not the cleric has healed himself adequately;
3rd round - Move + empowered magic missile will down the cleric with 19 points of damage and the ghost is now in melee. He is probably struck by a ghost touch weapon but will easily be able to take the damage from the +1 ghost touch hand-axe. He's been hit by a couple of spells at this point but his hit points are still pretty good. (TSM has 62 h.p.) vs a group of 3rd or maybe 4th level PCs.
4th round = TSM moves to stop any flank, casts empowered magic missile at melee fighter with ghost touch weapon. Maybe TSM gets hit again; maybe not.
5th round = Moves again to disrupt a flank, magic missle on melee fighter or corrupting touch. Either way, melee fighter probably goes down.

Assume that TSM has taken some more damage all along from arcane caster and maybe from other combatant (rogue, say).

By this point at the beginning of the sixth round, we have a spell casting ghost, CL8, with 6 magic missles and one dispel magic and a couple of monster summon II spells (one of which is empowered) left, vs. an arcane caster and a rogue with no -- or almost no -- healing abilities left.

So, played intelligently, TSM is certainly a PC killer and probably a TPK.

How to fix this?

1) Don't play him intelligently. This is what the module recommends. It has him split his magic missile attacks among the PCs instead of wiping one out and then turning to the next. This is dramatic (Pow, you lose 20 hp... now, boom, so do you) but painfully suboptimal; it lets the PCs carry on attacking while the cleric heals them with channeled energy.

Personally I don't hate this option, but it does make the ghost's 20 Int pretty meaningless, and more experienced players will be aware that the BBEG is playing suboptimally.

2) Split the difference. Play him as smugly overconfident, and have him use the suboptimal tactics until he perceives the PCs as a threat (i.e., has lost X amount of hp, is reduced to half hits, whatever). Then have him go nuts.

3) Nerf him. I can think of a couple of obvious ways to do this.

One, swap out one or both of his metamagic feats. While his Corrupting Touch is bad news, it requires a touch attack, and characters with high Fort saves have a decent chance to save for half damage. It's those 3rd and 4th level magic missiles that make him truly murderous.

Two, remove a level or two. Removing a single level doesn't actually do much. Moving him down to 6th level, though, makes him noticeably less deadly -- fewer magic missiles and they do less damage.

4) Add an item or items that can be used against him. Steel Wind suggested adding a +1 shield with a Shield spell cast on it as treasure in an earlier encounter. That way one character -- hopefully the cleric -- would be able to ignore TSM's magic missiles.

The adventure as written sort of does this, in that it lets you find TSM's spellbook, and states that TSM will not attack whoever carries it until they attack him. However, this bit doesn't seem to have been well thought out... the spellbook will likely go either to the party wizard (the last person TSM is likely to attack) or to the strong guy with high encumbrance (the fighter, who will attack TSM at once). In any event, this is unlikely to prove more than a very brief speed bump for TSM.

(Oddly, the adventure says that the carrier of the spellbook gets +2 to save against any of TSM's spells. I say "oddly" because none of TSM's spells have saving throws.)

5) Give an in-game roleplaying reason for him to play suboptimally, 20 Int notwithstanding. I'm not sure what motivation would be strong enough for the ghost to risk his "life" with bad play, but I'd welcome suggestions.

6) Add some ritual or other method that will weaken or damage TSM. Perhaps have the Warden keep some notes on the prisoners, findable in his office, including a note that TSM "is intensely superstitious, for all his intelligence, and is obsessed with the powers of written names... he refuses to write his own name, and shrieked in rage and seeming pain when we wrote it in our ledger." Clever PCs may note this and harm TSM by writing his name and presenting it to him, causing some thematically appropriate (and tactically useful) negative effect.

Thoughts?

Doug M.


I would recommend changing his Feat selection. It's those 2 Metamagic Feats that make him a TPK rather than a likely PC killer [Corrupting Touch].

This would seem the easiest nerf and would leave you with a couple of Feats to select, both of which could make him harder in different ways.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Personally I wouldn't nerf him as he is the big bad boss. Plus if the PCs already made it this far and killed the four other ghosts they should realize that they are going to have a massive fight on their hands by the time they get to him. If they don't prepare for this and expect to fight for their lives then they should die.

Also if a party manages to get his cursed item this fight goes from extremely difficult to cakewalk in 5 seconds.

If you are really concerned about your PCs getting TPKed by him instead of nerfing him I would try to lead them to finding his cursed spellbook and dealing with him that way instead. And if somebody dies ... somebody dies. That's all part of the game.

Liberty's Edge

Stonesnake wrote:
Personally I wouldn't nerf him as he is the big bad boss. Plus if the PCs already made it this far and killed the four other ghosts they should realize that they are going to have a massive fight on their hands by the time they get to him. If they don't prepare for this and expect to fight for their lives then they should die.

And what would a "prepared" party do, pray?

The problem with your approach is that you are assuming that there is something that a fully rested 3rd level party can reasonably do to stop being wiped by TSM when the boss is played intelligently.

Truth is? Not much; not much at all. The CR6 haunt the PCs have to fight immediately before TSM will ensure that the party is partially damaged with 3d6 hits points of damage each (DC16 Ref for half). That damage, unless immediately healed before TSM can act, is going to ensure that either your cleric or your Wizard will be killed with the first magic missile spell that TSM casts.

It's a straight out initiative roll. If TSM wins? A PC is down and dying after TSM's first maximized magic missile spell.

If the PC's heal the damage first, then it's possible for the PCs to prevail without additional item assistance, but it depends highly on the luck of the PCs rolls, both in terms of their attack rolls and their DCs against corrupting touch. The PCs can prevail if they succeed at virtually every single roll.

Experience indicates that where the chances of failure for each roll hovers between 25% and 50%, multiplied across 4 PCs x 5-6 rounds of combat?

Then the chances of the PCs succeeding at virtually every single roll over that course of time is vanishingly small; indeed, the odds of winning a significant prize in a scratch 'n win lottery become similar in comparison. The truth is? Somebody is going to fail a roll during that time span -- and more than once. Those failures, which are predicted by the laws of probability, are going to end up wiping the party.

In the result, unless the party has saved several haunt siphons (which is very unlikely without GM interference) and every magic arrow and all 8 cure moderate wounds potions that are available in the module, they are not going to survive this fight with TSM as statted out. The chances of the PCs preserving that many resources in the face of also having to defeat the Lopper -- and in also having to defeat the CR6 haunt that immediately precedes TSM? That is so unlikely as to approach a road sign which reads: "Now Entering Impossible City, Population: Zero".

You need to re-read the module before expressing the view as you have above. What you are suggesting seems likely based upon your own "hunch" and your own philosophical approach to gaming. While there may be nothing wrong with either of those things usually -- the facts in this case remove TSM from the general "usual" rule. When you evaluate the encounter based upon the specific facts and circumstances particular to the module, that analysis reveals that a change in either TSM or the Party's resources is necessary. Something has to be altered or a TPK is very likely.

The module recognizes this and it suggests a different "something to alter that play balance. The module text suggest that the GM have TSM adopt a tactic in battle which will result in the damage TSM inflicts in the first 4 rounds of combat to be essentially completely mitigated and healed up without any player deaths during that time. That should give the PCs enough time to do enough damage that after those 4 rounds are up, in the remaining time, the PCs will be able to defeat TSM.

Well, that is certainly one way to readjust the encounter balance. The problem is, it is such a blatant tactic that it amounts to taking a dive with your BBEG.

Something else is required to adjust the encounter balance, imo. I have suggested a change to the way that haunt siphons work in the module, so that the PCs will have an increased opportunity to meet the BBEG with more resources.

You do realize that the moldy spellbook's power is such that it is countered once the holder attacks?

Sure, it would be awesome if the players get the spellbook, understand that it seems to grant some limited immunity to the holder, understand that the immunity is best conferred upon the cleric (and NOT the Wizard), and choose accordingly.

But that's not going to happen without the GM altering the story in the module and telling the players something that they have no way of discovering within the module as drafted. No party is going to figure that out on their own without asisstance.

The overwhelmingly likely event is that the Wizard player will take the moldy spellbook, and the Wizard player will end up casting a magic missile in the 1st round of combat against TSM, thereby essentially eliminiating the advantage the moldy spellbook confers. And in 95% of cases, that will be that for the moldy spellbook's impact on play.

You can change the impact of the moldy spellbook through the intervention of Vesioranna Harwkran or by using something like a god or, say, the spirit planchette to confer with the PCs and give them the missing critical information. But they aren't supposed to know those things or to actually be able to determine those matters within the constraints of the module as drafted.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Players avaunt. You have been warned.

-- So, The Splatter Man. Final boss, 8th level ghost wizard with a 20 Int. He has very suboptimal spell selection, but even so he's got a ridiculous number of magic missiles, the ability to dispel magic and summon monsters, and Corrupting Touch for 8d6 of damage. Oh, and he's incorporeal and has 62 HP.

Wow that does seem overpowering for 3-4 level chars. Why put something like this in the first part of the AP? A Ghost is a pretty malleable template it could be applied to something more level appropriate pretty easily. Was the author encouraging PC death for story reasons?

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


The adventure as written sort of does this, in that it lets you find TSM's spellbook, and states that TSM will not attack whoever carries it until they attack him. However, this bit doesn't seem to have been well thought out... the spellbook will likely go either to the party wizard (the last person TSM is likely to attack) or to the strong guy with high encumbrance (the fighter, who will attack TSM at once). In any event, this is unlikely to prove more than a very brief speed bump for TSM.

This seems especially kludgy. Put an overpowering foe in the adventure then manufacture a way for the PCs to beat it? Why not just have a level appropriate encounter and avoid the workaround? Weird. I would not have expected a situation like this in the low level part of an AP.

Sczarni

At my table, we routinely have 6 players, all of whom are tactically savvy and fairly good at character optimization.

Even with the restrictions of 20 pt buy & APG + Core only, I expect the encounter to go something like this:

Party encounters haunt. That may or may not explode, depending on the Cleric and any Haunt Siphons they have remaining. Party defeats haunt.

TSM show up immediately after, probably goes in initiative after Fighter, Rogue, Ranger, before Cleric, Sorcerer. Depending on the party makeup, I expect a super-high-initiative Wizard or some other "I go first" type character.

Round 1:

Fighter swings/shoots, does minimal damage.

Rogue swings/shoots, ditto.

Ranger swings/shoots, does a decent bit of damage (could be Inquisitor,
Oracle, Paladin or any other "undead-hunter" specialist here...just going on guesses, really)

TSM zaps Cleric (if obvious) with 20 pt magic missile if he can, otherwise summons critters (as written, his first action is to summon some baddies, not to immediately murder non-shielded PCs)

Cleric channels (7 pt on average, proably 3.5 with save)

Wizard and Sorcerer cast shield, rendering them immune to further magic missiles

At the end of round 1, either TSM is down about 30 hp & may have some summoned rats, or is down about 30 hp, 1 maximized magic missile and the Cleric is down 20 hp.

Rounds 2-3 will likely procced as above, except for the Cleric's damage against TSM (likely will channel / cure xyz wounds himself), and Wizard has no more MM spells prepared.

2 rounds, maybe 3, and TSM goes "poof," even with murderous tactics on the part of GM.

Now, if you REALLY want to kill your party, he's got that fantastic drowning hazard right in the middle of his chamber, and really loves sadistic traps. Glowing magic sword in the water, anyone? Followed by magic missiles at the PCs while they're down in the water.

With 4 PCs and a weaker point buy, I can see issues present, but still don't see this as "Automatic TPK Town." Shield negates his primary offensive trick, and if he spends the round to dispel magic against that, he eats a whole other round of Smite/[i]Magic Missile[i]/Channel Energy/Holy Water/Ghost Touch arrows.

Liberty's Edge

psionichamster wrote:

At my table, we routinely have 6 players, all of whom are tactically savvy and fairly good at character optimization.

Even with the restrictions of 20 pt buy & APG + Core only, I expect the encounter to go something like this:

Round 1:

TSM zaps Cleric (if obvious) with 20 pt magic missile if he can, otherwise summons critters (as written, his first action is to summon some baddies, not to immediately murder non-shielded PCs)

Cleric channels (7 pt on average, proably 3.5 with save)

(As written TSM's first action is to do something that makes him not wipe the party. Though if you want to cast three summon monsters while TSM sits underwater in the oubliette completely safe from harm as the monsters start multiplying with empowered summoning happening up top -- go ahead.)

Your cleric is 3rd level. Even with a +1 to his Con, he has, on average, 20 hit points, perhaps 23 if he elected to take a bonus +1 per level insead of skills points.

The Cleric probably took 3d6 damage before the encounter began which he has not had a chance to heal. Even if he saves for half -- that damage is important. Very important, as it turns out. Because that damage will drop him to 20 hit points or less.

So how is it that the cleric isn't down and dying from the first maximized magic missile on the first round if TSM has the initiative before the cleric?

I'd say that the cleric down and dying before he had a chance to even act is going to significantly effect the way that the rest of the combat unfolds...

Quote:
With 4 PCs and a weaker point buy, I can see issues present, but still don't see this as "Automatic TPK Town." Shield negates his primary offensive trick, and if he spends the round to dispel magic against that, he eats a whole other round of Smite/Magic Missile/Channel Energy/Holy Water/Ghost Touch arrows.

Your estimated damage vs. TSM when the party is doing only 50% damage at best is WAY too high.

With four PCs?

The cleric is down and dying on either the first or second round, depending on the initiative roll.

The wizard will go down on the very next round -- as TSM's spellcraft at +16 is so high that he can't fail to identify the shield spell as it is being cast. So instead, he'll rip out the wizard's heart in one blow with corrupting touch. The odds are likely the Wizard drops from the first hit and is down and dying, because unlike the Fighter, he doesn't have much hope that he'll make the DC17 fort save to take half damage. 6d6 will kill the wizard (who is already damaged with 5-6 hits) off of 19 hit points. Hell, even if he saves, he'll likely be down and dying.

By this point, TSM is, at best, half dead. He is facing a rogue and a fighter type. Each has, at best, a potion of cure moderate wounds each and both likely have 5-6 hit points of damage on them.

The first maximized magic missile spell cast at the rogiue will drop him unless he has drunk his cure moderate wounds potion after only taking 5-6 hits. He isn't likely to do that -- and you've said as much, too. If he does? Then he dies the next round. Either way. The fighter can't do enough damage on his own to take TSM down in the meanwhile.

And so we are down to one fighter who is doing, on average 4.5 hits per round, 75% of the time. TSM has about 22 his points at this stage.

TSM does an average damage of 18-20 hit points per round with magic missile, always hits, no save.

It's a TPK by round 6 or 7, depending on when the fighter tries to run or drinks his potion in a valiant effort to preserve his life.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
psionichamster wrote:

At the end of round 1, either TSM is down about 30 hp & may have some summoned rats, or is down about 30 hp, 1 maximized magic missile and the Cleric is down 20 hp.

Rounds 2-3 will likely procced as above, except for the Cleric's damage against TSM (likely will channel / cure xyz wounds himself), and Wizard has no more MM spells prepared.

Did you miss the 6 normal Magic Missiles that TSM has?

That is still a lot of firepower.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I agree with psionichamster that in the hands of an intelligent party, especially one which has the ability to cast shield, TSM is not that difficult of an encounter. Challenging yes, but casting shield negates a lot of the TSM's core damage-dealing abilities.

But my 30-years of experience DMing wizard fights usually start off very bad for the PCs, then they usually manage to get a hold on their situation, concentrate on surviving and disrupting the wizard, heal up a bit, wait for the wizard to cast off his high level spells, and then kill him no problem. TSM is a very powerful ghost wizard yes, and with a stupid or very weak party from the prior haunt might turn into a TPK.

Perhaps the PCs might -- heaven forbid! -- flee and try to finish TSM another day and come better prepared to fight a ghost wizard. I know it's such a strange concept, but I've seen this odd, strange, tactic of coming back to a monster better prepared once they see it in action to work more times than I can count (hum, TSM loves to use magic missile. Perhaps some shield spells or a Brooch of Shielding would work well here. Poof! Easy encounter.).

Then again I play with a group that regularly bleeds encounters just to make things more "interesting" and has made character min-maxing to an art form. For my group I would, if anything, make TSM more difficult and probably raise his HP up to their maximum level otherwise I think the fight will be over way too fast.


Well I dont know.

What if you have an atypical party? You're thinking classic 4.

Take the Iconics.

You have a witch, a paladin, a sorceror and a rogue?

Two healers in that party. Two sources of the spell "shield"

Take for instance the party we plan on running through there:

A witch, A gunslinger/inquisitor, an alchemist and a barb going for oracle/rage prophet.

by third level there will be four members of that party with the possibility to heal, ALL four! Two of whom have decent hit point capacity.

Who is TSM going to maul first there?

Shield is a pretty common buff spell, so he would have to dispel it first, and hope someone's action isn't to replace it?

Even our typical group is usually: A witch, a magus (usually ftr/sorc going for EK until magus came out), a barb or ranger, and a bard or rogue.
That's two characters that can cast shield, and If either the witch or the magus is carrying his spell book he wont attack.

A witch can heal and buff the whole fight and never even be attacked?
Curious.

I see this battle going alot of different ways.
It really depends on party make up, and I see classic 4 less and less these days.

It will be interesting to see how these fights are played out as people get to TSM?

Sczarni

Steel_Wind wrote:
<snip>

Level 3:

Fighter (or Barbarian, or Cavalier) has Power Attack (or deadly aim), Weapon Focus, decent strength, probably a +1 weapon, possibly ghost touch arrows (any party that DOESN'T save some of them for the "boss" is asking for a TPK anyways...better to get it out of the way.) Average damage = 14-16, so 7-8 assuming incorporeal, full on 14-16 if they're using those "Boss Arrows." [ooc]Greatsword 2d6 (7) + Str 16 *1.5(4) + Enchantment (1) + Power Attack (3).

Paladin smites evil, likely using a one-handed weapon, adding 6 to his first hit, and 3 to subsequent hits.

Ranger is in the same boat as Fighter, but add +2 to damage if they have FE: Undead (and what Ranger in this AP wouldn't start with that?) Even more likely to have the "Boss Arrows" and good archery feats.

Witch/Wizard/Sorcerer/Alchemist has shield to weather the MM attacks

Oracle/Cleric/Druid gets hit for a whallop early on, possibly dead on the 2nd round. (Note, that eats up TSM's first two turns to kill one PC, leaving him open for retaliation). They also have Channel/Cure XYZ Wounds to stave off death.

Rogue/Monk also gets the short end of the stick, but since she's unlikely to attract much "threat" the chance of death is fairly slim.

End result:

If the TSM is fully aware of the party's capabilities, and IF you (as GM) want to kill off at least one or two of the PCs, then this Boss Monster is more than capable of pulling it off.

On the other hand, I don't expect to see more Obit's from this encounter when compared to say, Xanesha or the Rune Giants in RotRL, the Shadow Triceratops from CoT, or Olangru from Savage Tide. As a "BBEG" TSM fulfills his role, and unprepared, non-attentive, or just plain unlucky parties may well die.

Them's the breaks, in my opinion.


I'm just not seeing how casting Shield is much help here.

TSM is going to kill the PCs that can hurt him first. That means the cleric, followed by high-damage fighter types with magic weapons. Shield-casting arcanists are a lower priority, and their low Fort saves make them easy targets for Corrupting Touch.

The iconic witch-paladin-sorceror-rogue... good grief. That's actually worse than the classic four. Kill the paladin in the first two rounds, and who's left who can seriously threaten TSM? The sorceror spends a round casting Shield, gets a magic missile or two off, then falls to corrupting touch. The rogue can do a few hp of damage per round, average, if she has a magic weapon. The witch tries healing the paladin, maybe keeps her up for one more round.

I can just barely see a pile-on strategy working with 4th level characters. With 3rd level characters, no. A couple of PC deaths pretty much guaranteed, and TPKs likely.

Which brings us back to the original question: what's the least bad way to nerf TSM?

Doug M.


Pendagast wrote:


It will be interesting to see how these fights are played out as people get to TSM?

Well, if people play TSM as recommended in the book, then he's tough but nothing special. He uses up his Summon Monster spells first, then wastes rounds blowing a magic missile on each party member in turn. The party will of course heal these injuries. So by round five or so they're out of cures, and maybe one PC is down, but they've been pounding on TSM for five rounds and are starting to rack up the damage, and he's out of his best spells. It comes down to Corrupting Touch vs. melee attacks and whatever else the PCs can throw at him, and the PCs probably win.

But that's playing him suboptimally, with deliberately bad tactics. If a GM plays him to kill, then he'll kill.

Which brings us back again to the question: other than playing him badly, is there a better way to nerf him.

Doug M.

RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16

Why is Sheild a given? The Sorcerers in my party never even take Sheild and my Wizards rarely prep it. Unless there's a scroll of it earlier in the module, I'm not seeing why this is so assumed.

Also, remember that the modules are written for 15 point buy, and 4 players, who have not optimized. If you have higher point buy or more players, then your effective level is much higher. Saying "my uberoptimized 20 point buy group of 6 players is totally awesome" is irrelevant to the conversation. Increasing pointbuy by 5 points is roughly equivilant to a level up. Most home groups don't do perfect builds (and "waste" their time on things like "Skill Focus Bluff"). And you need to rebuild modules if you have 1.5 times as many actions as the normal group (note that every AP subforum as a "6 player conversion" thread).

Put another way: if you thought Xenesha was a fair fight... you're obviously not the "normal group."

My "fix" for TSM is that I'm going to pre-write out a bunch of things for him to say in combat. Every round, he'll say something rediculous (using the Joker from Batman as inspiration), and then fire off a MM. This will hopefully obfuscate his dive from my players, as I'll effectively be communicating that this is more of a cinematic encounter.

Sczarni

Erik Freund wrote:


1 Why is Sheild a given?
2Also, remember that the modules are written for 15 point buy, and 4 players, who have not optimized. If you have higher point buy or more players, then your effective level is much higher. Saying "my uberoptimized 20 point buy group of 6 players is totally awesome" is irrelevant to the conversation. Increasing pointbuy by 5 points is roughly equivilant to a level up.
3Most home groups don't do perfect builds (and "waste" their time on things like "Skill Focus Bluff"). And you need to rebuild modules if you have 1.5 times as many actions as the normal group (note that every AP subforum as a "6 player conversion" thread).
4My "fix" for TSM is that I'm going to pre-write out a bunch of things for him to say in combat. Every round, he'll say something rediculous (using the Joker from Batman as inspiration), and then fire off a MM. This will hopefully obfuscate his dive from my players, as I'll effectively be communicating that this is more of a cinematic encounter.

1: Shield, at low levels, is extremely good for 2 reasons. +4 Shield Bonus to AC (your Wizard just got 20% harder to hit), and immunity to magic missile. Case in point: BBEG Wizard/Sorcerer + PC w/ shield = PC stays alive. well, has a better chance

2: Fair point. This is why I stated that assumption at the beginning of my last post. In my experience, it is much more likely to have 5+ players and GM than to have 4 or less players + GM. Anecdotal & non-evidential, I know, but we operate from our own POV, no?

3: Most groups' GMs, who are running games where PCs take Skill Focus (Bluff), will not be using cutthroat tactics and complete tactical mastery in such an occasion. I fail to see the relevance.

4: This is essentially how I view this NPC. Mad, delusional, sadistic, and probably convinced of his invulnerability. The Joker in Power Armor is the closest literary equivalent, I'd say. Deadly, capable of destroying the average person without a second's hesitation, but completely unhinged and unstable.

As for the "I touch the Wizard, and he dies" line of reasoning...

If the PC is not preparing shield OR mage armor, he deserves to die a ghostly touchy death. With BOTH spells in place, the PC is essentially immune to TSM's attacks. (Dex +1, mage armor +4, shield +4 = AC 19 vs. incorporeal touch attacks. TSM needs to roll a 14 or better, just to touch the Wizard).

Not to mention, TSM just spent a round getting into melee range, only to attempt to kill the Arcane Caster, with a 25% chance of even landing the hit and a chance to negate a bunch of the damage. Granted, that's not a great chance, but better than 0% as it seems most folks are assuming.

All this aside, the single most elegant solution would be to include some "anti ghost grenades" into the adventure. Steel Wind's suggestions for super-charged Haunt Siphons, a wand of magic missile or wand of shield, or a scroll or two of ghostbane dirge will even the odds a bit.

In the actual fight itself, delaying the arrival of TSM himself (having him summon underwater, with the critters showing up on the surface is one idea) will allow for some healing after the haunt, buff spells to be cast (protection from evil, shield, mage armor, inspire courage are all very reasonable choices), and draw out the tension of the "Big Boss Fight."

If the "distributes MM's evenly" bit really bothers you, consider using it for a first round tactic only, evaluating who has shield, who may have SR, or who may be an illusion. Remember, although he has detect magic and good spellcraft, TSM cannot simply "know" what spells are on each PC, nor will he know the difference between a breastplate wearing, scimitar wielding Cleric and Fighter. At least, he will not know until they take some actions.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:


I'm just not seeing how casting Shield is much help here.

Which brings us back to the original question: what's the least bad way to nerf TSM?

Doug M.

Personally I always use Shield on my PCs. A +4 to your AC and it protects 100% from Magic Missile? It's one of the best/classic spells in the game. If you have a party with characters who can cast Shield and don't on a regular basis ... then they should die.

But after reading over the other posts I can see how TSM can destroy certain party balances. I think it really comes down to who is going to be going up against TSM in your game?

Personally I would probably just substitute Maximized Magic Missile with something else. Perhaps Confusion or Crushing Despair ... that is something you can determine pretty easily based upon your PCs play style and makeup.

But it seems that post after post the Maximized Magic Missile is the "killer" spell that everyone is fretting about. So replace that one with something else and keep the rest the same. That way he's still a strong BBB but not too difficult for your PCs.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
psionichamster wrote:
Erik Freund wrote:


1 Why is Sheild a given?
1: Shield, at low levels, is extremely good for 2 reasons. +4 Shield Bonus to AC (your Wizard just got 20% harder to hit), and immunity to magic missile. Case in point: BBEG Wizard/Sorcerer + PC w/ shield = PC stays alive. well, has a better chance

For a low level begining party? Shield rarely makes it into the mix.

Compared to Mage Armor, Shield is sub-optimal.

They both give +4 to AC, but Shield (for all its effectiveness vs MMs) lasts only 3 min at 3rd level (2 encounters if the players are fast, and only 1 if they are in search mode). It only gets cast when there is a known battle going to happen, or early in the battle for battles that aren't planned for.
Mage armor lasts 3 hours at 3rd level, which lasts a large portion of a search and several combats. One spell good for several combats makes it a favorite at low levels, because you aren't wasting your meager supply of spells so fast.

Add to this the fact that at higher levels, the Wiz/Sor/Whatever can add Shield to their list, because both Mage Armor and Shield stack.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Just an FYI I reread the module last night and the tactics of TSM are as follows:

"[TSM] then follows that up with magic missiles (working down from maximized to empowered to normal versions of the spell)--he'll generally split up his magic missiles amount different targets rather than focusing fire on one foe, in a cruel attempt to prolong and distribute the suffering."

So if you play him as written and don't concentrate all four magic missiles on a single target, like everyone is assuming in their examples above, and spread the damage out among the party -- viola! He's instantly more balanced. Problem solved.


Stonesnake wrote:

Just an FYI I reread the module last night and the tactics of TSM are as follows:

"[TSM] then follows that up with magic missiles (working down from maximized to empowered to normal versions of the spell)--he'll generally split up his magic missiles amount different targets rather than focusing fire on one foe, in a cruel attempt to prolong and distribute the suffering."

So if you play him as written and don't concentrate all four magic missiles on a single target, like everyone is assuming in their examples above, and spread the damage out among the party -- viola! He's instantly more balanced. Problem solved.

Yes, the OP realizes this. The issue some have is that they do not view that as in character or that their parties will complain that the Splatter Man "took a dive" and thus detract from their enjoyments.

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

So, played intelligently, TSM is certainly a PC killer and probably a TPK.

How to fix this?

1) Don't play him intelligently. This is what the module recommends. It has him split his magic missile attacks among the PCs instead of wiping one out and then turning to the next. This is dramatic (Pow, you lose 20 hp... now, boom, so do you) but painfully suboptimal; it lets the PCs carry on attacking while the cleric heals them with channeled energy.

Personally I don't hate this option, but it does make the ghost's 20 Int pretty meaningless, and more experienced players will be aware that the BBEG is playing suboptimally.

2) Split the difference. Play him as smugly overconfident, and have him use the suboptimal tactics until he perceives the PCs as a threat (i.e., has lost X amount of hp, is reduced to half hits, whatever). Then have him go nuts.


Overconfident and very intelligent are good combinations. You just have to ask- what is his intent? If he is confident that he will win regardless and greatly enjoys inflicting pain/suffering then the intelligent thing to do is to spread out the MM's so that he inflicts maximum physical injury over the greatest amount of time.

If he wasn't nuts he might err on the side of killing them one by one quickly- but that isn't what the module says this guy wants to do.

He is intelligent: he is just focusing that intellect on judging just how much punishment they can take before breaking.. and he is relishing the combat. "ha, took another slice off of you, and you, and You!" instead of "bang you are dead". He wants them to suffer and that is where he is putting his focus. If he knocks three Pc's down by 25% in the first round- then the PC's will worry. next round they are down by half.. two more rounds and they are dead.

Remember: The PC's don't know how many of each spell he has. Are they all maximized? are they all empowered? does he mix and match? You (the DM) may know the but PC's won't.

"suboptimal" tactics aren't suboptimal if his intent is to torture them slowly rather than to kill them one at a time.

-S


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As Selgard mentioned, the splitting of magic missiles is only suboptimal if his goal is kill the PC's. My reading of the module indicates TSM's goals end with killing but he's nuts enough to want to do it in a specific, highly ritualized way.

I saw this in the other thread, but my plan is that the magic missiles will tear through the PC's they hit and rip out their backs, splattering portions of their names on the walls or even in the air behind them. If their names are relatively short, each casting of MM will only get one letter of each PC hit, but I may need to reconsider this. Maybe maximized will get three and empowered will get two... we'll see. When a PC's name is finished getting written, TSM will go fully effective, but until then he wants to keep them alive so he can build power instead of just surviving. He doesn't know that he'll win when he finishes writing the name outside.

I'll probably still have the chilling and name writing happen to shielded PC's. It's admittedly allowing MM to have some effect on them, but it encourages using his resources on something that's not effectively killing the party. I might even make the missile splatter a name on the shield, making it visible. Also, once he's really hurting (say 25%) he might decide that he needs to survive rather than taking their power. He might not, though. He knows he'll reform unless he has some way of telling the warden's wife will suppress him. In that case, even survival instinct won't matter. It depends how the fight goes, I suppose.


Selgard wrote:

Overconfident and very intelligent are good combinations. You just have to ask- what is his intent? If he is confident that he will win regardless and greatly enjoys inflicting pain/suffering then the intelligent thing to do is to spread out the MM's so that he inflicts maximum physical injury over the greatest amount of time.

If he wasn't nuts he might err on the side of killing them one by one quickly- but that isn't what the module says this guy wants to do.

He is intelligent: he is just focusing that intellect on judging just how much punishment they can take before breaking.. and he is relishing the combat. "ha, took another slice off of you, and you, and You!" instead of "bang you are dead". He wants them to suffer and that is where he is putting his focus. If he knocks three Pc's down by 25% in the first round- then the PC's will worry. next round they are down by half.. two more rounds and they are dead.

Remember: The PC's don't know how many of each spell he has. Are they all maximized? are they all empowered? does he mix and match? You (the DM) may know the but PC's won't.

"suboptimal" tactics aren't suboptimal if his intent is to torture them slowly rather than to kill them one at a time.

-S

You have to consider who the splatter man is before you consider his stat block.

He's a serial killer with a highly ritualized method for killing people. How he kills people is more important than the actually killing. He kills more because he has to than wants to, as the urge builds and builds and requires some kind of release. He's been stuck down there for what, years? That kind of build up is going to make him careless. He's desperate for that release and he's going to make the pain last as long as he can, because he doesn't know when his next victem is going to come by.

Then take into account that he suffered a horrible death and has come back as a ghost and he's going to be even more unhinged than normal. Things like ghosts aren't known for their ability to change. In fact, ghosts commonly exaggerate whatever traits a person had when they were alive.

The idea that he's going to fight calmly and rationally after all that is more improbable than him fighting a cold, practical combat. He's more than a 20 int, he's the delusional, psychotic, ghost of a serial killer, who died a gruesome death, and has been trapped alone in his own personal hell. Just having people to torment is food for a starving man and he's going to make it last.


Cainus wrote:
Selgard wrote:

Overconfident and very intelligent are good combinations. You just have to ask- what is his intent? If he is confident that he will win regardless and greatly enjoys inflicting pain/suffering then the intelligent thing to do is to spread out the MM's so that he inflicts maximum physical injury over the greatest amount of time.

If he wasn't nuts he might err on the side of killing them one by one quickly- but that isn't what the module says this guy wants to do.

He is intelligent: he is just focusing that intellect on judging just how much punishment they can take before breaking.. and he is relishing the combat. "ha, took another slice off of you, and you, and You!" instead of "bang you are dead". He wants them to suffer and that is where he is putting his focus. If he knocks three Pc's down by 25% in the first round- then the PC's will worry. next round they are down by half.. two more rounds and they are dead.

Remember: The PC's don't know how many of each spell he has. Are they all maximized? are they all empowered? does he mix and match? You (the DM) may know the but PC's won't.

"suboptimal" tactics aren't suboptimal if his intent is to torture them slowly rather than to kill them one at a time.

-S

You have to consider who the splatter man is before you consider his stat block.

He's a serial killer with a highly ritualized method for killing people. How he kills people is more important than the actually killing. He kills more because he has to than wants to, as the urge builds and builds and requires some kind of release. He's been stuck down there for what, years? That kind of build up is going to make him careless. He's desperate for that release and he's going to make the pain last as long as he can, because he doesn't know when his next victem is going to come by.

Then take into account that he suffered a horrible death and has come back as a ghost and he's going to be even more unhinged than normal. Things like ghosts aren't known for their ability...

What about adding a bleed effect to TSM's magic missiles? This would fit his persona and add a little more danger to the split magic missiles mechanic. This bleed could potentially even heal him similiar to the Lopper's effect, or alternatively force a saving throw which if failed places a debuff on the character increasing their damage taken equal to current bleed effect.


It is possible that the Spellbook can act as hints as to TSP's tactics!

When the PCs decipher the spells within the book they notice additional scribbling and arcane diagrams on the page containing magic missile.

Spellcraft/Linguistics check DC 25

It appears to be some form of metamagic notes

Spellcraft/Linguistics check DC 30

Apparently TSM habitually maximized his magic missile spells


BornofHate wrote:

It is possible that the Spellbook can act as hints as to TSP's tactics!

When the PCs decipher the spells within the book they notice additional scribbling and arcane diagrams on the page containing magic missile.

Spellcraft/Linguistics check DC 25

It appears to be some form of metamagic notes

Spellcraft/Linguistics check DC 30

Apparently TSM habitually maximized his magic missile spells

Even though his tactics are explained by his insanity, I'm changing him a bit to use these tactics to make him a little more unique and terrifying.

First of all, I've added a bleed effect to his magic missiles. Secondly, the bleed actually spells out the characters name, one letter per round of bleed. Once a character's name has been spelled out, he must make a will save or suffer the effects of confusion. PC's get a save each round to break, and 3 consecutive saves negates the effect. A successful heal stops the bleed and removes 1 letter that has already been spelled out.

I'm going to crunch numbers and test this independently to balance out before I use it, but I think it's getting close to a happy medium between TPK and BBEG taking a dive.

I'm still working on how to implement knowledge about how the spellbook can be used against him, but I'm leaning towards incorporating the Spirit Planchette pursuant to this.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

ARISE, O THREAD

Why does everyone assume SM would be a tactical genius? He has a 20 INT, sure. He has not applied it to military or tactical training. Nothing in his history suggests he ever, during his lifetime, engaged in anything resembling a fair fight. Quite the reverse, he never confronted his victims face to face.

He's arrogant, overconfident, sadistic, and has pretty much zero combat experience. Viewed from that perspective, dividing his missiles over the PCs to maximize their pain and suffering, rather than quickly and ruthlessly putting each one out of their misery, seems perfectly in character.

It's also part of why he is a 6 CR, rather than a 9 CR, encounter.

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