|
Or has no capability to keep.
If Nick Logue came out and told everyone that he didn't have the capability to repay people the money they gave him, I'd cut him some slack. That's not what he's done.
Instead, he continually promises that everyone who gave him money will get it back, that he's swamped, but he's hard at work processing those pesky refunds, that it'll just be the end of the week and he should have it all straightened out. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't blame the guy for being a bad businessman. I don't blame him for not putting out a product, or for not having the money to make good on what he owes. I blame him for knowingly lying to his customers for months and months. One of his previous posts promised that anyone who e-mailed him would have their money back within a couple of days. His lies have been the one constant in all of this.
Nick Logue isn't a poor victim of his own bad judgement. Maybe that's what he was a couple of years ago, but today he's just a con artist throwing out the same old, tired line, trying to put one over on his customers. He knows damn well that he isn't hard at work on that pile of refund requests, and that the check is not in the mail. Nick has continually made the choice to deceive the people he owes money to. That doesn't make him a victim in my book.
What was it that drew so many people to invest their money in this book? Is it that many people want an edgy pirate style setting, or was it this guy's good name? If its the first, it seems a trusted 3pp could take a hint here, even without the original RC stuff and make their own. I mean hell, how many products can really claim that they've been delayed by 3 years and people are still clamoring for them?
I think it's a matter of Nick Logue's writing style and genre focus appealing to a LOT of people. That, mixed with the pirate theme, made Razor Coast an instant hit.
|
Instead, he continually promises that everyone who gave him money will get it back, that he's swamped, but he's hard at work processing those pesky refunds, that it'll just be the end of the week and he should have it all straightened out. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
xxx
I blame him for knowingly lying to his customers for months and months. One of his previous posts promised that anyone who e-mailed him would have their money back within a couple of days. His lies have been the one constant in all of this.
Nick Logue isn't a poor victim of his own bad judgement. Maybe that's what he was a couple of years ago, but today he's just a con artist throwing out the same old, tired line, trying to put one over on his customers. He knows damn well that he isn't hard at work on that pile of refund requests, and that the check is not in the mail. Nick has continually made the choice to deceive the people he owes money to. That doesn't make him a victim in my book.
I would concur with this observation and opinion once my email becomes a week-old without an answer from Nick, nevermind the actual refund.
|
I'm new to this discussion and don't have a horse in this race but I'm curious by nature.
What was it that drew so many people to invest their money in this book? Is it that many people want an edgy pirate style setting, or was it this guy's good name? If its the first, it seems a trusted 3pp could take a hint here, even without the original RC stuff and make their own. I mean hell, how many products can really claim that they've been delayed by 3 years and people are still clamoring for them?
Two things:
1. His freelance writing for Paizo2. His preview 'Indulgences' which were, and are, excellent.
|
I reserve the right to say whatever I wish to say the moment it becomes indubitable that Nick cannot refund the money I paid.
And when it is proven that he cannot/will not do so, I shall stand right beside you.
Until then, Heymitch's evidence of 'it hasn't happened for weeks' is not proof enough for me to berate and disparage a man I do not know. Civil, repeated complaints are what I would submit. Not accusations of lying and con artistry.
And when it is proven that he cannot/will not do so, I shall stand right beside you.
You'll never get proof. Nobody will. Nic will either repay or he won't. All we can say right now is that it has been 3 or 4 years and there is, as yet, no product and no refund. At what point do we decide it has been proven? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years? The lifetimes of three generations of our sons and daughters? All we can say is that we have been waiting for 3 or 4 years and that we still haven't seen either the product we paid for or a return of the money we paid for it with.
Until then, Heymitch's evidence of 'it hasn't happened for weeks' is not proof enough for me to berate and disparage a man I do not know. Civil, repeated complaints are what I would submit. Not accusations of lying and con artistry.
Look, I don't think Nic set out to rip anyone off. I really don't. And I don't think that anyone really thinks that either. But he has said a lot of things that have still yet to happen. I don't know when a promise becomes a lie, but after 3 or 4 years of broken promises, I think people calling him out as a liar is understandable. The intent doesn't matter. It is the fact that he has constantly failed to deliver on his promises, over a series of years, that counts. Actions, my friend, and all that.
I think the thing that has stimulated a lot of the accusations that people are making about Nic is the current circumstances surrounding Razor Coast. The fact is, Razor Coast is finished. It was handed over to Nic by Louis Agresta several months ago and all Nic needs to do is produce the final product. It was said (on the now defunct forums) that it was to be released as a PDF and POD, so there should be no substantial overheads that stop the products release (all the maps and art and cover were done, with talk of just one or two pieces remaining, but which weren't entirely necessary). So why hasn't it been released? I don't think that anyone who has paid up their money, or has just been following this saga, can understand this stalling. If anything has really soured people's opinion of Nic and brought about the accusations of lying and con artistry, it is this. The product is there. It is done. So where is it? The fact that it still hasn't been released makes a lot of people feel like they're being ripped off.
I agree with what someone said above. Nic should just get Razor Coast out there and offer his fans something. Hell, I'd even be happy for him to keep my money for Ebon Shroud if he just got Razor Coast out there. I don't think Nic is a bad guy - in fact, I probably think he's a pretty good guy and that is partly why he's found himself in this mess. But Razor Coast is done, so it's difficult to understand why it still hasn't been released and it's beginning to seriously sour people's opinions and lead to accusations. The resolution is simple. Release Razor Coast. That would be a fine start.
I really dont buy the "nick didnt know what he was getting into" argument either. The man put out some very nice product before he got the job in the UK. After that, things fell off the cliff; i dont think he has devoted at least 8 hours in the last few years to these projects.
I'll reiterate a request made earlier:
Nick, Let Lou release the product, as finished to those who have paid for it. I, for one, am happy to wash my hands of the $$ and don't care if i get a print product at this point. You can get it out and go back to the cave you appear to be living in.
More than one 3PP has offered to pick up Razor Coast and get it out there. At least one of them has indicated they will honor existing pre-orders. I'm hoping Nick can surface long enough to give one of them the nod, but it seems abundantly clear that his involvement with RC will never again be more than that.
I haven't asked for a refund, partly in the faint hope that another 3PP will someday be given the green light, but mostly under the perverse logic that if I don't request a refund, I'm not setting myself up for a second disappointment: a refund that is no more material than the product.
I realize that people are upset and want their money, but I'd like to remind everyone to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Ranting might make you feel better, but airing your laundry here isn't going to get anything done any quicker.
|
|
More than one 3PP has offered to pick up Razor Coast and get it out there. At least one of them has indicated they will honor existing pre-orders. I'm hoping Nick can surface long enough to give one of them the nod, but it seems abundantly clear that his involvement with RC will never again be more than that.
I haven't asked for a refund, partly in the faint hope that another 3PP will someday be given the green light,
I would second that, especially as the product is almost ready, given the last comments from Lou and the others.
Nick, if you can't do it yourself, at least, do that.
The thing that sucks is that the product is ready except for layout. Why can't the people who have paid for this at least get a word doc with the adventure and JPGs of the art and maps? That would take less than an hour to send out.
The thing that sucks is that the product is ready except for layout. Why can't the people who have paid for this at least get a word doc with the adventure and JPGs of the art and maps? That would take less than an hour to send out.
If the issue revolves around a lack of cash to fund the final printing and shipping of the books it would require the admission that the preorder funds were misappropriated.
That is a tough admission.
Again this is purely conjecture, but it seems the only logical theory at this point. Lack of capital again neatly explains the sluggish refund status as well.
I think the vast majority of us would prefer to hear such an admission
I think some of us would choose to help fund the final release of the project in exchange for some sort of patronage trinket.
Or at least kick the pdf out there and see if I would generate enough funds to finance the printing of the books.
|
|
All we can say is that we have been waiting for 3 or 4 years and that we still haven't seen either the product we paid for or a return of the money we paid for it with.
Thank you for making my point so clearly.
Look, I don't think Nic set out to rip anyone off. I really don't. And I don't think that anyone really thinks that either. But he has said a lot of things that have still yet to happen. I don't know when a promise becomes a lie, but after 3 or 4 years of broken promises, I think people calling him out as a liar is understandable. The intent doesn't matter. It is the fact that he has constantly failed to deliver on his promises, over a series of years, that counts. Actions, my friend, and all that.
And thank you for making my point so clearly.
...I would add to that that since Nick has been giving us broken promises for 3 or 4 years, he is either the least self-aware person on the planet, or else he at least strongly suspects that when he makes a promise of returning everyone's money in a week, it will likely turn into a broken promise.
Unless Nick truly believed that he was going to iron out all of the refund problems last week, then he was lying. Not making a broken promise, but making a promise that he knew he would be breaking. That's the distinction right there.
If a few other companies have agree to finish things up I am sure they have some idea that they will have to put some money up. I am guessing they don't mind taking the hit(money wise), since it will allow them to expand on the product later with more adventures so it is seen as a low risk gamble.
I am assuming that many of the 3pp'ers know each other at least on a small level through gaming cons and what not. They have probably exchanged contact information. I am wondering what happens when Nick gets these phone calls or emails, assuming these people do know each other.
If a few other companies have agree to finish things up I am sure they have some idea that they will have to put some money up. I am guessing they don't mind taking the hit(money wise), since it will allow them to expand on the product later with more adventures so it is seen as a low risk gamble.
I am assuming that many of the 3pp'ers know each other at least on a small level through gaming cons and what not. They have probably exchanged contact information. I am wondering what happens when Nick gets these phone calls or emails, assuming these people do know each other.
I don't see that as necessarily being a low-risk gamble. Layout on a large work isn't a quick job and deciding on a final page count, what to cut, what to modify, etc takes some doing. Basically, you'd be polishing other people's work instead of producing your own, while having had no input on the creative process. In a large game world, that matters. There is a very good chance you'd have to re-write half the book or get new material from freelancers, causing delays - which is the last thing you'd want to announce on this thing.
Honestly, if I were running a 3PP, I'd have zero interest in Razor Coast. There's too great a risk of it having the Daikatana effect.
If a few other companies have agree to finish things up I am sure they have some idea that they will have to put some money up. I am guessing they don't mind taking the hit(money wise), since it will allow them to expand on the product later with more adventures so it is seen as a low risk gamble.
I am assuming that many of the 3pp'ers know each other at least on a small level through gaming cons and what not. They have probably exchanged contact information. I am wondering what happens when Nick gets these phone calls or emails, assuming these people do know each other.I don't see that as necessarily being a low-risk gamble. Layout on a large work isn't a quick job and deciding on a final page count, what to cut, what to modify, etc takes some doing. Basically, you'd be polishing other people's work instead of producing your own, while having had no input on the creative process. In a large game world, that matters. There is a very good chance you'd have to re-write half the book or get new material from freelancers, causing delays - which is the last thing you'd want to announce on this thing.
Honestly, if I were running a 3PP, I'd have zero interest in Razor Coast. There's too great a risk of it having the Daikatana effect.
You have a point. I guess you may have to reedit it to your taste. I do think half the book is a bit much considering Nick's reputation(as a quality freelancer). The fact that the product is partially finished is also a plus. That is a lot of work that you don't have to do.
|
|
Ebon Shroud, Razors Coast, Ancharist Gamemasters Cookbook and how many others did he take pre-order money for?
Has anyone seen a product or a refund from this person of supposed good character?
Not to my knowledge, I used to think his work was awesome, now I still do but, my estimate of the person himself? Not so good.
Sorry Nic, I feel you have let all your loyal fans and backers down one, no more then one to many times.
Send out the refunds and apoligize to meach and everyone of us, your conscience will feel the relief.
You have a point. I guess you may have to reedit it to your taste. I do think half the book is a bit much considering Nick's reputation(as a quality freelancer). The fact that the product is partially finished is also a plus. That is a lot of work that you don't have to do.I don't see that as necessarily being a low-risk gamble. Layout on a large work isn't a quick job and deciding on a final page count, what to cut, what to modify, etc takes some doing. Basically, you'd be polishing other people's work instead of producing your own, while having had no input on the creative process. In a large game world, that matters. There is a very good chance you'd have to re-write half the book or get new material from freelancers, causing delays - which is the last thing you'd want to announce on this thing.
Honestly, if I were running a 3PP, I'd have zero interest in Razor Coast. There's too great a risk of it having the Daikatana effect.
Yes, but the problem is that the work that is done is largely (from the publisher's point of view) the easy part. Editing and layout are work intensive and time consuming and can really make the difference in the quality of the final product. It seems counter-intuitive, but sometimes creative content isn't what makes or breaks a product.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, 2011 Top 32
|
Ebon Shroud, Razors Coast, Ancharist Gamemasters Cookbook and how many others did he take pre-order money for?
Has anyone seen a product or a refund from this person of supposed good character?
Not to my knowledge, I used to think his work was awesome, now I still do but, my estimate of the person himself? Not so good.
Sorry Nic, I feel you have let all your loyal fans and backers down one, no more then one to many times.
Send out the refunds and apoligize to meach and everyone of us, your conscience will feel the relief.
People have received refunds. There's another thread where several people have posted that they had their money refunded. It's bad enough what actually has happened without inflating it any worse.
All we can say is that we have been waiting for 3 or 4 years and that we still haven't seen either the product we paid for or a return of the money we paid for it with.
Thank you for making my point so clearly.Look, I don't think Nic set out to rip anyone off. I really don't. And I don't think that anyone really thinks that either. But he has said a lot of things that have still yet to happen. I don't know when a promise becomes a lie, but after 3 or 4 years of broken promises, I think people calling him out as a liar is understandable. The intent doesn't matter. It is the fact that he has constantly failed to deliver on his promises, over a series of years, that counts. Actions, my friend, and all that.And thank you for making my point so clearly.
...I would add to that that since Nick has been giving us broken promises for 3 or 4 years, he is either the least self-aware person on the planet, or else he at least strongly suspects that when he makes a promise of returning everyone's money in a week, it will likely turn into a broken promise.
Unless Nick truly believed that he was going to iron out all of the refund problems last week, then he was lying. Not making a broken promise, but making a promise that he knew he would be breaking. That's the distinction right there.
Preach it!
I still believe there is something we can do to move this along. What about sending him a letter signed by everyone who bought this book and/or everyone who'd like to buy it should it come out? Maybe send it to him via certified letter?
Anyone have any other ideas?
|
|
We could threaten to sue him into bankrupcy. Likely, this would cause Sinister Games to go officially bankrupt, and someone would be able to buy it for a pittance and then publish the project. As i understand it, the buyer would not be obligated to refund or honor preorders.
At least this is how it might work in my country.
However, this would require a formal complaint to the courts and could take several years. And involve legal costs.
I am not sure whether Nick himself would be at risk from such a move. I am no expert in US law after all.
EDIT : to be clear, I don't think it's worth the effort.
I believe Sinister Adventures LLC is based out of the USA; registered in Buffalo NY in fact.
I don't think making the company bankrupt would be very nice. I entertained the idea of trying to get a class action lawsuit against him earlier, but now I think something less threatening would be better.
Maybe if he was aware of the amount of people interested he'd be encouraged to step up and give it out. But maybe that is naive at this point.
If a few dozen people took him to small claims court in NY, I think that might get his attention. If nothing else, his failure to show up would result in a summary judgement against him.
The people with the default judgement couldn't do anything about his being overseas, but they could take it to a judge and have a bench warrant issued. This wouldn't be worth extradition over, but it would mean if he ever came back to NY he'd be arrested on the bench warrant.
I'm sure he'd pay attention at that point, and then would have to resolve the issue with the people who put out the bench warrant by refunding money and paying for court costs (several hundred per person no doubt).
I am not a lawyer, but that is my understanding of how it would work. You'd have to research the relevant NY statutes. However, it would require a small amount of time and investment on one persons part, who could then negotiate the refunds for everyone else before agreeing to drop the charges.
EDIT : If he's incorporated as a LLC, it get's a bit more dicey, but it's possible the corporation could be defaulted on a judgement, which could then cause forfeiture of corporate assets if it went on long enough.
If a few dozen people took him to small claims court in NY, I think that might get his attention.Given he has posted that he was trying to do refunds I'd say he's "aware of the situation" and for whatever reason ( good, bad or otherwise) he's not replying to email nor doing refunds.
No, he's aware, but he's not paying attention. There's a difference. It's like being a 7-11 clerk. You are aware the gang banger is in the store, but when he pulls a 9mm your attention becomes very focused.
Having bench warrants out for you has a way of causing your attention suddenly become very focused, and causes your priorities to be re-evaluated in light of the new situation.
Does anyone know where I can get Nic's email address? I'm sure someone on this thread has it, but I don't really want it posted on a message board. Maybe someone can spell it out and keep the spambots away.
|
|
If anyone plans on suing him to get the Intellectual Property (Razor Coast) so that it can be published, then that person has my support. I'll execute a special power of attorney so he can file the case also on my behalf. (I am based outside of the US).
US legal forms are usually standardized for ease of use, so if you have the small claims documents in writable PDF formats, then you can email them to me at rbuado_ph at yahoo dot com, and I'd happily draft the complaint.
(Philippine Corporate Law is based on US Corporate Law so there shouldn't be much problem).
I found this site on NY State Small Claims.
Your idea might still have merit, as it seems to be the only way to get Razor Coast out there. There are enough people who would volunteer to finish it if we could publish it freely...
Your idea might still have merit, as it seems to be the only way to get Razor Coast out there. There are enough people who would volunteer to finish it if we could publish it freely...
Publish it freely? As in, for free? I'm against that for certain.
I just wanted to share that I did get an email from Nick this morning actually.
Hi Nick,Regarding Razor Coast I wanted to know if the plan is still to release it? Seems like all I have read sense the website went down is about refunds on the Paizo boards. So is refunds all one can get now or is the product actually going to come out this year?
I have been promising my players a Pirate like campaign with Razor Coast for a long time and wanted to know if I need to look else where to fulfill that need. So a simple response here or the Paizo board would be nice for those of us still waiting on the product.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/licensees/sinisterAdventuresSAWebsiteDownWillWeEverSeeTheRazorCoastThanks
Got this back this morning.
Hi Tim!Razor Coast is still on the boards! Its coming out at the end of the summer hopefully! The website is doing a revamp and going up again soon for the last stage of Sinister (before I shut it down) – only RC and Anarchist Gamemaster Cookbook are coming out – everything else is cancelled.
Nick
So he is alive and has plans to release RC. I just wanted to share with others is all and still hopeful to get to run this adventure one day.
Thanks
I hate to rain on the parade, but ever since I've been coming to this website, he's reassured people that it will be done in short order every few months. So I wouldn't really put a whole lot of stock in this latest reassurance.
I don't have a horse in the race, but, I do find it an interesting coincidence that right after someone started posting papers needed to file claims in small claims court in NY, that e-mails started going out, and that the person that posted links to the NY information and offered to give up their power of attorney for a lawsuit was one of the first people to get an e-mail.
Not saying it is cause/effect, but, it is an interesting coincidence.
I don't have a horse in this race either, but assuming he is legit a little communication goes a long way.
"Sorry guys the project will be delayed for another _____ months approximately" would have done wonders, crickets chirping, not so much.
I hate to rain on the parade, but ever since I've been coming to this website, he's reassured people that it will be done in short order every few months. So I wouldn't really put a whole lot of stock in this latest reassurance.I don't have a horse in the race, but, I do find it an interesting coincidence that right after someone started posting papers needed to file claims in small claims court in NY, that e-mails started going out, and that the person that posted links to the NY information and offered to give up their power of attorney for a lawsuit was one of the first people to get an e-mail.
Not saying it is cause/effect, but, it is an interesting coincidence.
No such thing as coincidences.
No such thing as coincidences.Not saying it is cause/effect, but, it is an interesting coincidence.
There aren't naive people either... wait, wat?
But yes, normally people served with possible legal issues are bound to respond in one way or another, be it honestly or dishonestly.
Legally, all he'd have to do is respond with, it's still coming! and he's covered for a little while.
I honestly can't believe people think that you can be too busy to come to this board and post something like "it's coming!"
seewhatididthere?