
Morag |

This:
Curse of the Crimson Throne #10: A History of Ashes, page 22.
Guided Weapon:
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th
Slot: weapon quality; Price: +1 bonusDescription:
A weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use
his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided
weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely
the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of
a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a
guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage
rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed
weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to
the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be
wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to
modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes
against the weapon’s nature and
imparts a –2 penalty on all attack
rolls made in this manner.Construction:
Requirements Craft
Magic Arms and Armor,
spiritual weaponI allow it in my games, even though "technically" it's 3.5
Seems to fix everything and makes me happy as a clam, with no other changes at all. And I ONLY play a Monk.

vuron |

Congratulations vuron, you just came to the same conclusion Frank and K did in the Tomes.
Hahaha back to the drawing board again then.
Honestly though having a static armor bonus modified per level instead of a wis linked armor bonus seems to be the most elegant solution to the Cleric dip class issue. His scaling seems off for PF purposes but that's largely because Tomes is 3.x turned to max volume.
I'm not really following enhancement bonus to normal clothing but my knowledgebase of Tomes is really limited. I assume there are +enhancement clothing options?
Or is he talking about armor special abilities for stuff like bracers of armor?

Mojorat |

TriOmegaZero wrote:Kind of why I like the idea of making the AC bonus an armor bonus. Then a cleric or druid dipping into monk doesn't actually get anything he couldn't get by just wearing armor. It's nice when he just wakes up, but doesn't add much when he's out adventuring.Hrmm, the key problem I see with that is that if the +wisdom to ac is an armor bonus that prevents the Monk from benefiting from Bracers of Armor which are generally a critical method of boosting monk AC.
I wonder if instead of functioning as a + to AC you could create a level dependent table (instead of wisdom linked) that provides an armor bonus equivalent to the expected Armor Bonus of a light fighter at that level.
Assuming a starting dex of 12/+1 you could have it like
Level 1: Armor Bonus +4 (chain shirt)
Level 3: Armor Bonus +5 (chain shirt +1)
Level 6: Armor Bonus +6 (chain shirt +2)
Level 9: Armor Bonus +7 (chain shirt +3)
Level 12: Armor Bonus +8 (Chain shirt +4)
Level 15: Armor Bonus +9 (Chain Shirt +5)Not compatible with other armor bonuses.
In effect the Monk would get freebie light armor which I think is relatively fair considering how expensive amulets of mighty fists are. Further because this would require the monk to boost Dex to keep pace with recommended AC numbers it's really not that much of a cost savings.
Further because it's separated from the wisdom mechanics it no longer is a tempting dip for clerics.
i cannot speak for lvl 12 and 15 but. What would be the point of this if you can already hit those exact (or close to exact) numbers?
The monk i play, currently is siting at +6 effective bonus at lvl 9. i could hit the +7 mark but not in a campaign area where i can pick and choose magic items.
Admitdly to hit that mark i also need a monks robe,
But anyhow If you can in actual play hit those numbers why would this be needed? the advantaege here also is that all the features that boost the monks CMD to insane levels are also currenly contributing to their AC which would be lost in your suggestion.
Im not saying its good or bad, just how it seems to compare with current personal play expereince.

vuron |

I'm not opposed to keeping the total ac bonus level. What I'm trying to is to avoid allowing the high end cleric from getting a +13 to AC for having a ridiculous Wisdom casting score.
Having a static Armor bonus equal to chain shirt + level appropriate enhancement bonuses means that the Monk can keep up with all the other light fighters (rogues, bards, alchemists) in terms of AC.
Plus it has the added benefit of making Wisdom less critical to boost every opportunity.
Example:
Level 1 Human Monk
Str: 15 Dex: 15 Con:12 Int: 10 Wis:14 Cha: 8
Monk Armor Bonus +4
Dex +2
AC-16
Level 1 Human Rogue
Str:13 Dex: 17 Con:14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha: 8
Studded Leather +3
Dex +3
AC-16
Level 10 Human Monk
Strength: 18 (+1 level, +2 Enhance) Dex: 18 (+1 level, +2 Enhance) Con: 14 (+2 Enhance) Int: 10 Wis: 14 (+2 Enhance) Cha: 8
Monk Armor Bonus +7
Dex + 4
Deflection +2
Natural Armor +2
AC-25
Level 10 Human Rogue
Strength: 14 (+1 level) Dex: 22 (+1 Level, +4 Enhance) Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 12 Cha:8
Mithral Chain Shirt +3 +7
Dex +6
Deflection +1
Natural Armor +1
AC-25
Rogue could boost Deflection and NA to +2 each but that's +12k in terms of cost which is probably going to be sunk into 2 short swords/kukri. The monk has a ton of money sunk into the belt of physical perfection and the wisdom enhancer.
You'd of course want to solve the Amulet of Natural Armor incompatibility with Amulet of Mighty Fists issue but that needs to be done anyway.

Almagafor |

Almagafor wrote:The monk was originally an AD&D class before being a cleric Kit, and (if my memory serves me right) used the cleric to hit table.Mikaze wrote:Full BAB as a matter of course.
I still don't understand the logic behind them ever not having it. Yeah yeah, feat progression. And?
The monk grew out of a 2nd edition cleric kit, hence cleric BAB, which carried to Pathfinder.
I stand corrected.

DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |

I am wondering on what rules you think would make the monk a more viable class.
I was recently monkeying around with "martial artist" concepts for a pet project of mine, because the monk as written didn't work for the project, but I needed some eastern philosophy-meets-minimally-armed-asskicking in the system.
I ended up, effectively, splitting the monk into two classes.
One's a "martial artist" class that's full BAB/d10 and has the flurry of blows class feature and some various abilities involving improved maneuvers and special kicks and the like. Gets more bonus feats than the monk but still fewer (and fewer to choose from) than a fighter. Ignores Intelligence requirement for Combat Expertise and related combat maneuvers. The gist of the class is almost entirely martial with a minimal weapons and armor theme (the class does have light armor proficiency, but abilities don't work in heavier than that). No ki abilities or immunities or anything.
The other's a "warrior-mystic" (think the old buddhist hermit you visit in the secluded mountain who makes you tea but could kick your ass if he wanted to) which is a more direct retooling of the monk class (3/4 BAB, no armor, etc.). But the big thing is I took away flurry of blows--it's just too much of a mess with the monk as written--and amped up ki abilities and the like in its place. The gist of the class is more of a spiritual character with mystical abilities who can also punch you in the face if and when the mystical abilities fail, but punching people in the face isn't the key focus.
I'm starting to think that the main problem with the monk is it tries to do too much so ends up being mediocre at everything. Splitting the concept into two seems to help. Call it "martial arts" vs. "martial crafts." ;)
If I manage to get the things looking presentable I might toss them up in this subforum so others can tear it down.

Cartigan |

If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.

LoreKeeper |

I like that people want to make the monk a monster - but I don't really believe it is necessary. I play lots of monks, and I've had very little trouble competing with the top-end of the party damage dealers.
What people seem to forget is that the monk doesn't need to act in isolation - he acts in a party a lot of the time. And trust me, there is no class that benefits more from flat buffs than monks. Play a normal monk, with the normal rules, and have a good team with you.
The best way you can make your monk awesome, is have a bard be a party member. Good hope together with Inspire Courage converts the monk into a wrecking ball. And if you have a party wizard/druid/cleric - let them use Greater Magic Weapon on you every day (buy them a level 3 pearl). You might think "sure, but the fighter benefits from that too" - of course he does, but nowhere near as much as the monk.

LoreKeeper |

As a side note: why has nobody mentioned that monks are a better inquisitor? Well... not in the normal sense - but the monk of the empty hand from level 11 onwards can spend 1 ki point to make his (flurried) weapon get the bane weapon quality. Kinda like an inquisitor, but with twice the attacks (since the inquisitor cannot use his power on two weapons for the purpose of TWF).

Pendagast |

Since monks like to flurry, why not give them some sort of mobility advantage? Like letting them take 10 foot steps, or move and flurry with ki points?
There is a feat I saw somewhere that lets you "follow" a retreating opponent upto 10 feet, im not sure what that was about, i just scanned it the other day.

Pendagast |

If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.
i never really understood what the point of a monk weapon was. I can flurry with my nunchucks but Ill only do 1d6 damage even though my fist does 2d6, i never understood that.
Also the monk needs a weapon with either increased crit threat (19-20) or increased crit (x3) all his weapons are ho hum 20 (x2) which do inferior (or the same at lower levels) damage to his unarmed attacks, what is the point of having any of them?

Cartigan |

Cartigan wrote:If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.i never really understood what the point of a monk weapon was. I can flurry with my nunchucks but Ill only do 1d6 damage even though my fist does 2d6, i never understood that.
Also the monk needs a weapon with either increased crit threat (19-20) or increased crit (x3) all his weapons are ho hum 20 (x2) which do inferior (or the same at lower levels) damage to his unarmed attacks, what is the point of having any of them?
Enchanting them is cheaper than buying an amulet of mighty fists. The Monk got shafted by a bunch of bs. "Look, the monk has all these exotic weapons! Let's take something away from them to account for it."

Kierato |

Cartigan wrote:If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.i never really understood what the point of a monk weapon was. I can flurry with my nunchucks but Ill only do 1d6 damage even though my fist does 2d6, i never understood that.
Also the monk needs a weapon with either increased crit threat (19-20) or increased crit (x3) all his weapons are ho hum 20 (x2) which do inferior (or the same at lower levels) damage to his unarmed attacks, what is the point of having any of them?
You cam enchant a monk weapon up to +5 Defending, convert it's entire bonus to AC, and rely on unarmed strikes. If the DM rules you must make at least one attack to get the AC bonus, you still get Flurry of Blows.

Pendagast |

Pendagast wrote:You cam enchant a monk weapon up to +5 Defending, convert it's entire bonus to AC, and rely on unarmed strikes. If the DM rules you must make at least one attack to get the AC bonus, you still get Flurry of Blows.Cartigan wrote:If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.i never really understood what the point of a monk weapon was. I can flurry with my nunchucks but Ill only do 1d6 damage even though my fist does 2d6, i never understood that.
Also the monk needs a weapon with either increased crit threat (19-20) or increased crit (x3) all his weapons are ho hum 20 (x2) which do inferior (or the same at lower levels) damage to his unarmed attacks, what is the point of having any of them?
True, but its super munchkin metagame at it's best.
However got a dumb question, if you were to do that, could you dual wield two defending weapons? or would that not stack?

Kierato |

Kierato wrote:Pendagast wrote:You cam enchant a monk weapon up to +5 Defending, convert it's entire bonus to AC, and rely on unarmed strikes. If the DM rules you must make at least one attack to get the AC bonus, you still get Flurry of Blows.Cartigan wrote:If you want a Monk as a combat class - which IS what it is right now, it's bad at it, but that's what it is.
1) Monks do Monk unarmed damage with Monk weapons if greater than the damage of those weapons.
2) Monks can deliver Ki attacks, quivering palm, and Stunning Fist attacks through a Monk weapon as long as he has a Ki point.
3) Full BAB
4) Add Wisdom to damage done with Monk weapons and unarmed strikes.i never really understood what the point of a monk weapon was. I can flurry with my nunchucks but Ill only do 1d6 damage even though my fist does 2d6, i never understood that.
Also the monk needs a weapon with either increased crit threat (19-20) or increased crit (x3) all his weapons are ho hum 20 (x2) which do inferior (or the same at lower levels) damage to his unarmed attacks, what is the point of having any of them?
True, but its super munchkin metagame at it's best.
However got a dumb question, if you were to do that, could you dual wield two defending weapons? or would that not stack?
The general consensus is that they are considered the same bonus and don't stack.