Because you do not threaten them with the bow. Therefore, you do not actually flank them.
If you had some other way to threaten them, such as armored spikes, or improved unarmed attack, then you'd still threaten them, and with PB Master, I'd allow you to sneak attack with the bow while flanking.
The big thing that stops you from sneak attacking with a ranged weapon is that you can't flank with it. Once you flank, you can sneak attack.
Note I'd let you flank with spiked armor/improved unarmed attack and not having PB Master, but, you'd provoke an AoO.
mdt:
I see.
Yes. I can understand that a person wouldn't threaten *until* they get PBM. I think once PBM hits the field, and AoO is taken out of the picture, that's pretty threatening =)
But, if I need to threaten them some other way (if my DM won't go for the PBM = threaten = Flank = Sneak equation), you think merely having armored spikes or Improved UA is enough to make the equation legal?
[thinks]
This character is important. I'm retiring my Paladin to soothe some gameplay conflict, and I want this new character to excel killing and not dying =P
I always play characters that have lots of issues, motivations, and conflict... but our game lends it self to a little more slay than that... so I want a character I can surprise people with =)
I'm willing to change him up to make it work!
I don't think you can threaten with a ranged weapon in melee at all, no matter what, unless you have a feat that explicitly says it threatens in melee. A ranged touch attack, even if you don't provoke, doesn't threaten in melee. I would put the PBM in the same boat.
However, if you are threatening for some other reason (armored spikes, IUA, etc) then you flank no matter what you do (a cleric that defensively casts while wielding a mace still threatens with the mace, he can make AoO's). Threatening means you can make AoO, and you can't make AoO with ranged weapons.
You certainly threaten them, in that you've got a deadly weapon pointed at their face, but you don't actually 'threaten' them, which in game terms generally requires a melee weapon of some kind.
The easiest way to remember it is, if you can make an AoO, you threaten. If you can't, you don't.
PBM prevents AoOs against you it does not allow you to threaten another individual with a ranged weapon thus no AoOs with ranged weapons or flank bonus.
An archer wearing a spike gauntlet (I know) does threaten and thereby can flank but only for purposes of attacks and AoOs with the spike gauntlet.
You can't threaten with one weapon and then take it with a non-qualifying weapon.
The only way I've found to threaten with a bow, is to be a 9+ level Zen Archer monk. You only threaten adjacent squares with it (actually, "squares he could reach with unarmed strikes" which might be further for a larger than medium creature), but this would let him flank with a bow in melee. If you want to be a zen archer monk 9/rogue x, you could play the concept you want, but I don't think it would be super effective.
Sneak attack is meant to replace backstabbing. Ranged <> backstabbing.
Ranged is already too easy in this game, especially with the Point Blank Master feat... there's basically no downside.
That's my take on it, I believe others covered the basic rules of why.
Well, if you want to stick with the fighter/rogue build, I really like using heavy thrown weapons (like spears). Useful in melee (not teh uber awesomez!!1! but still workable with sneak attacks) and can be chucked as a ranged sneak attack opportunity presents itself. Surprise rounds are nice for that.
Go for a heavy strength build. Basically play a fighter as you normally would, though keeping to medium mithril armor so you can use your rogue abilities. Power Attack and Weapon Focus and such.
Put returning on your spear and invest in the Vital Strike chain, since you won't be throwing more than one or two spears a round (and won't get them back until the beginning of your next turn). You might grab some mundane spears and use Quick Draw to hurl them out in a pinch.
Fighter 4/Rogue 5 wouldn't be bad. Not super optimized, mind you, but fun. It sort of fits what you'd like, but is slightly more viable.
Are you allowed Spell Compendium spells? My daughter took the rogue ability that allows her to use a 1st level spell a few times a day and picked Distract Assailant. As a swift action, you can make the target creature flat-footed for a round. A pretty easy way to get a sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
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Depending on how your campane is set up. Range is not very good. Even more so if your trying to get sneek attack damage out of it. The Zen Archer is nice so is a standard Ranger taking Ranged combat traning. The ability to threaten with a range weapon dose not come to the monk till level 9. So over all meh. By the time you get that level with a monk the only way there closeing is becous you made a tatical mastake. The first thing you need to think about is you still need Str. then you need to get a compostet long bow made to your str. You might look at the ninja. Then use throwing stars to get your first round sneek attack damage.
Here is why you cannot use a bow to generate a Flank, or gain Sneak Attack with a bow (except first round/denied DEX to AC)...
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character
Emphasis mine.
Unless you are making a melee attack, you are not getting the flanking bonus. However, if you can threaten with a bow/unarmed attack, then your 'flanking partner' could get the benift-assuming *they* are making a melee attack :)
I could be wrong--would have to look up the specific wording of PBM...
:D
GNOME
Something to consider:
Halfling Fighter/Rogue with Weapon Focus on a Halfling Slingstaff
you're probably only gonna get sneak attacks in the surprise round, like people said. Ability priority would be Str Dex Con Wis Cha Int.
You would need to make sure you had a decent perception and a High Initiative to maximize your combat-opening sneak attacks. Armor spikes to threaten wouldn't go amiss, even if your GM doesn't allow sneak attacks with the slingstaff (and, honestly, at that point, just hit them with it as a club and forget the spikes.)
I need help tweaking a character for a game tomorrow night. Won't you help a guy out?
Here's the 1st question:
A character with Point Blank Master can take a shot with a bow against someone who threatens them w/o provoking an attack of opportunity... so why wouldn't they
a) get the +2 Flank bonus (they don't have a hand-to-hand weapon, but I guarantee they threaten their opponent)
and
b) be able to Sneak Attack the enemy because they *do* threaten them because they don't provoke an an AoO and *should* get the Flank bonus?
Seriously.
It's my first bow-wielding character, and I'm really curious about this.
Flank specifically says engaged in melee as a requirement, but I can be face-to-face with you, engaged in combat, with a missile weapon... and I could totally get a Sneak on you if you were distracted by another person in real life.
Here's the follow-up info:
He's a 4th lvl Fighter, 5th lvl Rogue.
He has:
Improved Initiative
Iron Will
Improved Iron Will
Point Blank Shot
Point Blank Master
Precise Shot
Many Shot
Rapid Shot
Weapon Focus
Weapon SpecializationHis Will is terrible. It's a 9 with the Iron Will bonus.
Stats are:
Str 16
Dex 20
Con 16
Int 14
Wis 14
Cha 13All the normal skills (I assume) are maxed (Stealth, Acro, etc.)
I want him to be absolutely lethal, but I wanted a range attack that didn't suffer if I got close (hence Point Blank Master).
I just don't understand why, realistically, seriously, I wouldn't be able to Sneak, with a bow, while Flanking an enemy.
Suggestions?
Help?
=)
What you need is...
Gestalt Half-celestial Half-Fiend Half-dragonZen archer monk/rogue who can threaten and make AoO's with his bow
or human
Can't you treat the bow as an improvised weapon?
Take the catch off guard feat, and slam them with your bow!
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Meta-gamingly, not allowing a bow/crossbow to benefit from a flank is ridiculous =)
Just ask Legolas =P
Or that guy behind you with the gun whose buddy is in front of you with a knife.
Just sayin' ;)
Anyhow =)
I *really* appreciate all the help from everyone!
I'm going to load up Hero Lab and take another look.
According to your gun analogy, your saying that a flanking bonus should apply to a bow in the same way it applies to guns in real life. However, I would like to point out that if a gun is pointed me it still has the same chance to hit whether there is somebody holding a knife at me or not. Pretty much doesn't get any easier than point blank range in my opinion.
The flanking bonus is merely to show that the flanked character is focused on defending on two fronts, but since there isn't much you can do against someone with a gun pointed at your face (or any ranged character, if they know what they are doing and won't let you grab the weapon from them) no bonus is applied.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
Read that first sentence again. An enemy has to be threatened by Ally A for Ally B to get the flanking bonus when making a melee attack. You can threaten with an arrow being used as a dagger, as long as you then stab them with the arrow, rather than firing it from the bow. It has to be a melee attack, after all.
This is full of wrong.First, it's not that you don't threaten with a bow. You can benefit from flanking with a whip but you don't threaten with one. Thus you do not provide flanking with a whip.
Second, what it is instead is that you are making a ranged attack. Ranged attacks do not benefit from flanking. Period.
Third, even were you to be able to provide flanking to others by threatening the opponent's square with another weapon.. you would not receive flanking for ranged attacks.
There is a difference between benefiting from flanking and providing flanking. Normally these can overlap, but they need not do so.
-James
Huh,
Took me awhile to go over the rules in detail. My apologies. We'd always read that as you both had to threaten to flank. And it was the threatening that provided the flanking, and once you flanked, you got flanking bonuses.Having said that, I think I'll run it my way in my games. If you threaten, you flank, regardless of what your actual attack is. It makes more sense to me that if you are able to threaten the guy, he can't know until you make the attack what you're going to do, so he has to treat you as a valid threat.
Since for ranged attacks, that means you have to be within your reach of the guy to threaten, and that 95% of the time you'll provoke an attack of opportunity (esp at low levels), I'm not too concerned it'll OP the game. I really don't have a problem with a rogue running up to a guy and shooting him with an arrow from 5 feet away and aiming for the kidney. :)
This is full of wrong.First, it's not that you don't threaten with a bow. You can benefit from flanking with a whip but you don't threaten with one. Thus you do not provide flanking with a whip.
Second, what it is instead is that you are making a ranged attack. Ranged attacks do not benefit from flanking. Period.
Third, even were you to be able to provide flanking to others by threatening the opponent's square with another weapon.. you would not receive flanking for ranged attacks.
There is a difference between benefiting from flanking and providing flanking. Normally these can overlap, but they need not do so.
-James
Huh,
Took me awhile to go over the rules in detail. My apologies. We'd always read that as you both had to threaten to flank. And it was the threatening that provided the flanking, and once you flanked, you got flanking bonuses.Having said that, I think I'll run it my way in my games. If you threaten, you flank, regardless of what your actual attack is. It makes more sense to me that if you are able to threaten the guy, he can't know until you make the attack what you're going to do, so he has to treat you as a valid threat.
Since for ranged attacks, that means you have to be within your reach of the guy to threaten, and that 95% of the time you'll provoke an attack of opportunity (esp at low levels), I'm not too concerned it'll OP the game. I really don't have a problem with a rogue running up to a guy and shooting him with an arrow from 5 feet away and aiming for the kidney. :)
I had the same misunderstanding. If the other guy is not a threat then logically I should not be flanked(feel threatened). I guess it is house rule time.
Rogue/wizard would allow for ranged sneak attack all over the place.
1) Cast something like grease, so that enemies are flat-footed.
2) Sneak attack at will.
There are two occasions when you get sneak attack, flanking is one of them.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
So, in melee only a character gets +2 when the target is threatened by a 'buddy' (or at least someone that is after the target too!). Easy to understand.
To Sneak Attack, you must either deny the target his DEX, or Flank (see above).
Bear in mind a Whip using rogue can SA due to flanker support, but cannot provide flanks in return. This is a good thing in my opinion: Whips are Melee Attacks that both provoke attacks of opportunity and do not threaten. With the 15' reach, whips would be ridiculously good crowd control weapons-Whip in one hand, blade in the other!
Is there something that allows a Bow to Threaten? iirc, the Peerless Archer (PrC out of Silver Marches 3.x, Forgotten Realms) was able to threaten at range and could use Flanking to generate any sneak attack dice as well. (but that is a hazy recolleciton and I don't have my books!)
If a bow wielder had a specific feat that allowed the bow to be used as an improvised weapon, or had Improved Unarmed Strike (sic, Monk) then, *YES* he could threaten and provide Flanking for an 'ally'. However, he could not gain the benefit himself unless he was attacking in Melee. Shooters do not gain the benefit of Flanking.
In almost all cases, each Flanker will be fully able to use the benefits. It's exceptional situations (martial artists w/ Bows, Whips...) that don't fit the scheme.
GNOME
For the Grease spell, if you are in the AoE, then it's save or fall. If you are moving in the AoE after casting, it's a DC10 Acrobatics check (which can be very tough for heavy armor wearers!). If you do not move, you do not have to check but are not considered Flat Footed (other than the inherent drawbacks of not moving, there are no mechanical penalties). If a target is knocked down he is Prone and cannot use most missile weapons and is -4AC v. Melee attacks and +4AC v Missile attacks.
I hope that helps :)
GNOME
You could be an Elf with Stabbing shot. Mind you its not super effective because it forces you to push the opponent back 5 feet.
Meta-gamingly, not allowing a bow/crossbow to benefit from a flank is ridiculous =)
Just ask Legolas =P
Or that guy behind you with the gun whose buddy is in front of you with a knife.
Just sayin' ;)
Anyhow =)
I *really* appreciate all the help from everyone!
I'm going to load up Hero Lab and take another look.
In a way so you can wrap your mind around it.
Another way to look at is...if you knew the gun was empty...would you feel threaten by it?The bow has to be loaded...the string has to be pulled back...etc. A melee weapoon...just as to be swung. Melee weapoons are faster than bows. That is why without a class ability or possibly some future feat you don't threaten with a bows or flank with it.
In a way so you can wrap your mind around it.
Another way to look at is...if you knew the gun was empty...would you feel threaten by it?The bow has to be loaded...the string has to be pulled back...etc. A melee weapoon...just as to be swung. Melee weapoons are faster than bows. That is why without a class ability or possibly some future feat you don't threaten with a bows or flank with it.
It's ever so much easier if you just stop thinking about someone holding a weapon as threatening you, or you 'feeling' threatened by someone.
It makes much more sense if you go back and remember that it is only as part of the simulation of combat that people take turns. If everything was going real time, you would be dodging attacks as you dished them out.
So, think of threatening as ducking or sidestepping a strike. Flanking bonus comes in to play because you can't dodge both at once.
This means you can visualize dodge and dex bonuses to AC VS missile attacks as the attacker having to hit a moving target. Your target isn't going to be very effective at trying to move his body out of the way of your missile, but he's moving around a lot, which makes hitting him with something that pretty much travels in a straight line really hard.
So, if you think about it that way, it really clears up all the rulings. No flank bonus because the dude isn't (effectively) trying to dodge your missile, he's just ducking and weaving the attacks of the other guy.
Rogue/wizard would allow for ranged sneak attack all over the place.
1) Cast something like grease, so that enemies are flat-footed.
2) Sneak attack at will.There are two occasions when you get sneak attack, flanking is one of them.
That's a good idea =)
Is there an addendum to Grease somewhere that explains the flat-footed bit? The spell description I have isn't totally clear =|
10ft sq, 10 DC Reflex or fall, move make save, don't move not flat-footed.
So, if someone moves in/through the grease, they become flat-footed *and* have to make the save?
I run a campaign were a player who has (in my opinion) successfully forged the highest damaging PC in the party (More so than the half-orc Monk, the Elven Fighter, and the Human Evocation Wizard) His Character is an Elven Rogue (sniper spec), Summoner. His Eidolon is a fast little serpent that can take a punch. The sniper doesn't threaten AoO as so much as he monopolizes on the target's loss of his Dex. His max damage is something like 57pts at 7th level.
The way my group has been doing flanking with ranged, is that ranged can not set up a flank for others, but they can use the flanking bonus if meld is setting up the flank for them. Reading rules as written now, I have no idea where we got that from, but it has worked for us
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Ultimate Combat has a feat line called Snap Shot (then Improved, then Greater).
Snap Shot
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Combine this with Point Blank Master and unless I'm wrong, it seems that you can do everything flanking with ranged as you would with a melee weapon.
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unless I'm wrong, it seems that you can do everything flanking with ranged as you would with a melee weapon.
You are wrong.
FireberdGNOME quoted the relevant rules text above.
Flanking
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
It doesn't matter if you can threaten with a bow. It doesn't matter if you can take Attacks of Opportunity with your bow. Heck, it doesn't matter if you have some sort of bladed bow that can also be used as a melee weapon.
If you aren't making a melee attack, your attack does not flank.
Does Snap Shot turn a ranged attack into a melee attack? No. Does Point Blank Master turn a ranged attack into a melee attack? No. Even if you had a "bladed bow" that could be used as a melee attack, you could ONLY flank if you were indeed making a melee attack. Firing the bow, by the RAW, cannot flank because it is a ranged attack. End of story. Full stop.
Is this RAI? Who knows. Is this reasonable? That's up for the DM to decide. But are those the rules? Yes, indeed.
Attacking with a weapon in your off hand only lets you add 1/2 your str bonus to damage, per the rules. The feat double slice lets you add full str bonus. The feat changes the standard rules for that for that, why not with the other?
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Snap Shot specifically allows you to "threaten" adjacent squares and get attacks of opportunity into them. Thus, the only thing NOT specifically stated is whether it allows you to flank an opponent.
The text of flanking in the Core Rulebook says 'melee attack' and some people take that to mean that an attack with a ranged weapon cannot ever qualify for flanking. Others take flanking to be a situation where the target takes penalties because he is threatened with AoO on opposite sides and thus must divide his attention... by which logic Snap Shot and anything else which allows AoO would qualify. In the Core Rulebook only melee attacks could be used for AoO. Subsequent books have introduced exceptions to that and hence the dispute about whether they provide flanking bonuses or not.
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BTW, there is also the 'Gang Up' feat from APG:
"You are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning."
By the 'we must stick with RAW at all costs' philosophy this means that you get flanking bonuses for ranged touch attacks you make on the person from 100' away IF two of your allies threaten them. There have also been rulings that YOU count as your own ally... and therefor this could be read that if you and one 'other' of your allies both threaten an enemy (such as with Snap Shot) then you are flanking that enemy even if you aren't on opposite sides.
Ergo, Point Blank Master + Gang Up + Snap Shot should definitely allow flanking with a bow. Add in Improved Snap Shot and you threaten everything in a 15' circle around you... meaning you get flanking on enemies engaged with any one of your allies in that area.
Except that nothing posted so far specifically cancels out the "melee attack only" rule. I'm not saying that no ranged weapon could ever flank ever, I'm saying in order for a ranged weapon to flank, it has to have a specific rule (such as a feat or class ability) that SPECIFICALLY says it does.
Specific trumps general. Always has, always will.
The general rule is that in order to gain the flanking bonus, you must be making a melee attack. Nothing has ever specifically cancelled that rule, and thus, nothing trumps that. I'm not saying we need to stick with RAW at all costs, I'm saying we stick with RAW until something says not to.
Just take this feat:
Ranged Flank (Combat)
Even at a distance, you can take advantage of a distracted opponent.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +10.
Benefit: When attacking with ranged or thrown weapons from a distance of up to 30 feet, if the nearest adjacent space to your target is unoccupied and the opposite space is occupied by a threatening ally, you are considered flanking. Both you and your ally gain all the benefits of flanking, including +2 flanking bonus on attacks, rogues can sneak attack, etc.
Normal: Only characters in melee are considered flanking.
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UltimaGabe, I agree that 'Gang Up' was intended to apply to melee actions. I was just pointing out that the 'so it is written' argument can be used to justify some truly ridiculous positions. The written text of Gang Up says that you get flanking bonuses regardless of your positioning. If taken literally that means people on the other side of the battlefield get flanking bonuses. Intent and logic always need to be considered... and if they are invoked on flanking then once you can threaten a square you ought to be able to establish flanking.
Here's a fun absurdity for you... two Sprites in the same square with bows and 'Improved Snap Shot'. They threaten everything within 15'. Any (melee) allies of theirs with 'Gang Up' then get flanking bonuses on everything within 15' of the two Sprites... even though none of these enemies is threatened by any other melee opponent and the two Sprites themselves do NOT get flanking bonuses... and would not even if they also had 'Gang Up'.
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snap shot says you threaten.
if you threaten, it provides 2 main benefits
the ability to make attacks of oppurtunity
the ability to benefit from flanking bonuses
the melee weapons thing is a flaw in the old wording that came from the fact that they didn't expect the request for the design of a feat that let you flank with a bow.
snap shot is also a splatbook feat and thus couldn't have been covered by the core book, where the flanking rules are written. and the designers were also too focused on Guns and the Orient at the time.
i also beleive that Gang Up was also intended to allow ranged combatants to take advantage of distracted foes.
UltimaGabe, I agree that 'Gang Up' was intended to apply to melee actions. I was just pointing out that the 'so it is written' argument can be used to justify some truly ridiculous positions. The written text of Gang Up says that you get flanking bonuses regardless of your positioning. If taken literally that means people on the other side of the battlefield get flanking bonuses. Intent and logic always need to be considered... and if they are invoked on flanking then once you can threaten a square you ought to be able to establish flanking.
That's not true, though. Like I said before, specific trumps general. There's two general rules you're confusing here- 1. You flank when making a melee attack, and 2. you flank when you're standing on one side of the opponent and an ally is directly opposite. The feat you're referring to has specific text trumping ONE of those. All that Gang Up does is it lets you flank an enemy "regardless of your positioning". That's all fine and good, and even if you're taking that to the logical extreme, then sure, you could flank with a ranged weapon from several squares away- except there's still that general rule that you can only flank when making a melee attack. So if you can somehow make a melee attack from several squares away, then go ahead. (Which actually could come into play, if for example there's a garguantuan creature with a whip flanking from seven or eight squares away.)
I see what you're trying to do, and I see your point, but you're still incorrect.
snap shot says you threaten.
if you threaten, it provides 2 main benefits
the ability to make attacks of oppurtunity
the ability to benefit from flanking bonuses
Incorrect. Whether or not you threaten has no impact on whether YOU benefit from flanking, it affects whether you can allow OTHERS to benefit from flanking. (Go back and read the text I quoted above. It's all there.) You can only provide flanking to your ally if you threaten, but you can only benefit from flanking if you are making a melee attack. That's why I said in my first post that it doesn't matter if you can threaten or not.
Like I said, go back and read it- it's all there. :-)