Ninja: I cast Lesser Dissertation

[CDProtocol]

Hello again. As intimated last week, here are my thoughts on the Ninja.

Disclaimer: I will occasionally throughout the length of this writing make assumptions and GM based calls on how I personally interpret the language of the class. Everyone should feel free to hold their own opinions and continue to arbiter their own games as is appropriate for them.

Today I will be examining the ninja class under a single thesis question. That question is: Given the Ninja class, why would you play a Rogue ever again? As opposed to my dissertation on the samurai, I will not be tossing a ninja into random 1-on-1 fights against monsters from the beastiary to show their damage output compared to others of their archtype. For the most part, in terms of damage dealt the numbers for a ninja should look almost identical to a rogue of equivalent levels. So I'll begin by examining things from a fundamental level and then move on to some examples.

Weapon Proficiencies: I understand there's something of an argument circling around about the ninja weapon proficiencies. It definitely appears that ninja just get more various proficiencies than the rogue does, especially in the exotic weapon category. The argument about the katana is a matter of historical precedent compared to how the mythos has evolved over time. If you want to go with the katana as the noble weapon of the samurai, then a longsword proficiency could simulate the use of the straight-blade attributed to the ninja. Even discounting that though, there are still 5 exotic weapons and two martials as opposed to the rogue who gets 1 exotic and 4 martial weapons. Problem here is that by definition the ninja are commonly associated with these sorts of exotic weaopns and I could still make an argument for spiked-chain varieties to represent the various-gama class of weapons (chains with various pokey-slicey-crushy bits on the end). So what's the solution? I don't know, maybe strip off the ninja's use of simple weapons and give them a very narrow list? Just tossing it out there.
Advantage: As printed: Ninja.

Evasion Vs. Ki Pool: On the surface this trade-off seems balanced. Evasion is exceedingly useful to the early game survival of the rogue archtype so the ninja sacrifices some survivability for a little bit of utility and offense. Ok, no problem. Different spheres of focus right? Right. Except evasion is a lot easier to get from items, multiclassing into monk, or in the case of the Ninja: wait until level 10. This makes the apparent trade-off between ninja and monk seem like a mere inconvenience for awhile instead of an actual trade between the classes.
Advantage: Ninja.

Poison Use Vs. Trapfinding: Nothing much needs to be said here, there've been plenty of printed variants in the advanced player's guide that make the same kind of trade. Two highly specific abilities used in specific circumstances.
Advantage: Neither.

No Trace Vs. Trap Sense: Again, basically you're just switching the numbers for something slightly different. Seems pretty much in line with other variants we've seen before. Sure it makes the ninja even more difficult to pin down, but the way the stealth skill tends to exponentially skyrocket compared to opposed perception checks, I question if it would really matter. The other bonuses from No Trace are neat, but I wouldn't say they're more valuable than Trap Sense. Again, highly specific abilities used in specific circumstances.
Advantage: Neither.

Light Steps Vs. ...Um...: An extra ability the ninja seems to get. If you set the class tables right next to one another they almost read exactly the same in terms of progression except for this single ability. The ability isn't that bad either, thematically cool and can help the ninja cross certain areas that would be completely inaccessible by the rogue. Especially if they burn a ki point to get improved movement speed to cross up to 100 feet of say...lava, or acid pools without taking damage.
Advantage: Ninja.

Ninja Tricks Vs. Rogue Tricks: Ok, the big can of worms. First off, since there is promise of tons of new rogue tricks available in Ultimate Combat it seems a little unfair to be comparing these things right off the bat. So instead of trying to sound like I'm belaboring a horse to death with a battered bludgeon, I will just point out a few fundamental differences that should be addressed before the book is printed.

First off: Vanishing Trick and Shadow Clone. One of these abilities mimic a quickened 2nd level spells, never mind that they are two powerful (especially for a stealthy archtype) second level spells. A rogue can almost get something like Vanishing Trick by taking Minor Magic and then Major Magic to select Vanish as their first level spell (Advanced Player's Guide). But even that route would only allow the rogue up to 5 rounds of invisibility and even then once a day. The Ninja, on the other hand, can use his abilities as often as he has ki points, and can even use Vanishing Trick once per day for free and it lasts up to his level in rounds. I would challenge anyone to point to a currently printed rogue talent that can mimic something with the same power as Vanishing Trick or Shadow Clone. Everything I look at has a caveat of once per day, or other penalties.

This is actually endemic of the shift in power levels from a rogue to a ninja. While yes, several of the ninja talents all would draw from the same ki point pool, by that same token the ki point pool can be enhanced with feats, magic items to increase charisma, or if the GM is feeling particularly generous: magic items that enhance the ki pool. There seems to be a shift towards ability pools lately, be it Grit, Resolve, or what have you. I feel this is a good thing as it gives the players more choices in how to use their abilities in a given day and allows GMs to reward players in ways beyond simple treasure and experience...however as it stands the new classes with these abilities start to blow the old classes out of the water.

I am going to assume that in the new book we will see talents for rogue that are as thematically and mechanically pleasing as things like: Ki Charge, Smoke Bombs (and the various adders), Wall Climber, etc. But I will also point out that in the Greater Ninja Tricks, [/i]Invisible Blade[/i] effectively lets them use an 8th level spell with equal ease as Vanishing Trick, and grants them the rogue coup of prancing around the battlefield sneak-attacking whomever they please (assuming they don't counter it). Assassinate basically gives them a simpler version of the Rogue's level 20 ability or the Assassin's defining ability with much easier use (granted with less versatility). And lest we forget: the ninja can still buy off the disadvantage they traded by taking Evasion and if they really wanted, Improved Evasion from the Advanced Talents rogue list. Because lets not forget that Ninjas can take any rogue talent they would want if the ninja ones do not appeal to them.

Perhaps in the end that is actually a weakness of the ninja talents. Almost all of them are good. It's at the point where if I were to make a ninja all my feat choices would be Extra Talent (assuming that feat would apply to ninja) and Extra Ki.

As an aside, and I apologize if this has been answered elsewhere already, but what is the point of Forgotten Trick? I've read the ability about five times now and either I just don't get it or there is something missing from it. Choose a trick to choose a trick?
Advantage: Without a doubt: Ninja.

Hidden Master Vs. Master Strike: There's not much of an argument here. Here's why. The ninja ability states that when he activates his special extra-juicy version of greater invisibility, that he cannot be detected by any means. No perception checks, no spells listed, no extra-sensory abilities, one could even make an argument for mental detection at that point. The only way to counteract this would be a lucky area greater dispel which, even at a level 20 caster, the caster would need to roll an 11 to succeed. Or you can suppress it with an antimagic field or disjunction, if you know where to target of course. In addition, the ninja can also selectively remove 10 points (arguably more if he has something that increases precision damage) of any ability score without any save allowed. Here's a hint: Con. I would assume that this latter ability does not work on creatures that have crit/precision damage immunity, but at that point the ninja is suffering the same penalties as the rogue...but still gets to be supremely invisible for 20 rounds.
The rogue? The rogue's ability is nice, save vs. being immediately taken out of the fight. Assuming the foe in question is susceptible to sneak attacks and also fails his save. The rogue does not get to try again though if their foe makes a save, while the ninja can just keep stabbing until all six of the target's ability scores have been hamstrung quite hard. (I won't even get into the argument of how smart someone would fight with a 2 in Int and Wis). Also, if the ninja really wants to have a save or die stab, he can just take the assassinate greater trick.
Advantage: Ninja.

-------------------------------------

Disadvantage in Dungeon Delving Situations
The lack of trapfinding and trap sense seem a hindrance at first. But let's parse this out.

Level 1: Assume the ninja and the rogue both have a 20 dex, a 14 int, and 10 wis. Both have max ranks in Perception and Disable device. The perception and disable device DC for a level 1 trap is universally 20 from the traps listed in the core book. The rogue has a 1 point advantage from trapfinding at this time, giving him a +5 in perception to spot the trap, and a +9 to disable device checks discounting any extra feats or mundane equipment. The ninja would have +4 and +8 respectively.
Rogue: 25% chance to spot, 45% chance to disarm.
Ninja: 20% chance to spot, 40% chance to disarm.

Level 5: I'll assume they now both have a widgit of +2 dexterity and still have maximum ranks in their respective skills. The Rogue's bonus has now jumped to +10 perception to detect traps and +16 to disarm them. The ninja remains at +8 on perception, +14 on disarm checks. The CR5 mechanical trap still has a DC 20 to spot and disarm, the magical one is a DC 28.
Rogue: 50% chance to spot mechanical, 80% chance to disarm.
15% chance to spot magical, 35% chance to disarm.
Ninja: 40% chance to spot mechanical, 70% chance to disarm.
5% chance to spot magical. The ninja cannot disarm magical traps.

Level 10: Same assumptions. Max ranks, widgit of dexterity +4 and now stat points have risen their dex by another 2. Rogue's perception is now +18 to spot traps and +26 to disarm. The Ninja has +13 to perception and +20 to disarm them. The CR10 magical trap has a DC of 34 to spot and disarm. The mechanical trap has a DC of 25 to spot and 21 to disarm.
Rogue: 70% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
25% chance to spot magical, 60% chance to disarm.
Ninja: 40% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
5% chance to spot magical. The Ninja cannot disarm magical traps.

Level 15: Same verse same as the first...well third actually. Max ranks, widgits +6. I'll go ahead and throw in a widgit of wisdom +4 to help with perception checks. Obviously at this point they should probably have skill related items to help boost perception at the very least, but tossing +10 to both of their skill numbers would defeat the purpose of this example. The Rogue now has a +27 perception to spot traps, and +33 to disarm them. The ninja has +20 to perception and +26 to disarm. The mechanical trap for CR 15 is DC 30 perception, DC 20 disarm. There is no exact DC 15 magic trap, the average of the CR 14 and 16 is a perception and disarm DC of 32.
Rogue: 90% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
80% chance to spot magical, 95% chance to disarm.
Ninja: 55% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
45% chance to spot magical. The Ninja cannot disarm magical traps

Level 20: More of the same. Max ranks, widgits +6 each, no skill modifiers beyond ranks and stats. Oh and another +2 dex from leveled stat points putting their modified dexterity at a 30. The Rogue now has +36 on perception for traps, and +43 disable device. The Ninja has +26 on perception and +33 on disable device. There is no magical trap for CR 20, closest is DC 30 at CR 18. Average between it and the CR 20 magical trap is a DC 32 so we'll call it at that. The magical trap at CR20 is DC 34.
Rogue: 95% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
95% chance to spot magical, 95% chance to disarm.
Ninja: 75% chance to spot mechanical, 95% chance to disarm.
65% chance to spot magical. The Ninja cannot disarm magical traps.

So, obvious argument of skill items aside (I'll get to that in a minute). The Ninja obviously trails behind on the rogue when it comes to finding traps and disabling them. At low levels his supposed weakness only trails the rogue by 5 percent, but as the bonus from Trapfinding grows its clear to see the discrepency grow. Especially with magical traps, which the ninja will never be able to disarm.

However.

The ninja can reasonably purchase away most of his perceived penalty with a 10,000 gp item to give him +10 to perception checks (all checks mind you, not just for trap spotting) and another 10,000 to help him with disable device. That plus a ring of evasion for 25,000 gp will effectively buy him Trapfinding (with a little extra on the skills, but still without the ability to disarm magical traps) and well...evasion. These are easily done by level 10 if you have a friendly wizard to help you craft. Or perhaps by level 12 or 13 for straight market cost.

Conversely.

There is no such item that would grant a rogue access to a ki pool. The closest thing I can find in a book would be boots of speed to grant them haste for 10 rounds a day. Which would give them extra AC, extra movement, and an extra attack at about the same frequency a ninja would get them. However there would be no way to increase the number of those rounds. A rogue can also take poison use through one of their variants or a prestige class, but there isn't anything I can find that allows them to just buy it for cost. Then again, the value of something like that is pretty arguable.

-------------------------------------
Feel like killing a PC? An encounter with a level 12 party

Alright that's enough of dry mechanics and textbook analysis. Let's see some ninja in action. My current campaign is taking my party into the oriental analogue in my world, wherein it would be quite possible for the party to be beset by ninjas and their shadowy overlords.

The party consists of (names and races have been altered to protect the identity of the adventurers):
Danzo - M Elf LN, 12 Fighter (2-Weapon Warrior variant)
Ingrid - F Half-Orc N, 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer (Cold Element Bloodline)/5 Eldritch Knight
Horace - M Halfling CN, 3 Rogue/4 Sorcerer (Abyssal Bloodline)/5 Arcane Trickster
Udri - F Dwarf NG, 12 Cleric (Sun & Weather Domains)
Talon - M Half-elf LN, 5 Fighter/5 Rogue (Danzo's cohort via Leadership)
Kelly - F Human N, 10 Rogue (Ingrid's cohort via Leadership)

They will be ambushed by a group of 5 level 10 Ninja. In terms of raw experience rewards this puts the total XP for the encounter at 32,000 even, or halfway between a CR 13 &14 encounter. Should be a moderate challenge for this party. Keep in mind that under Pathfinder NPCs used in an encounter count as their class levels -1 for purposes of determining CR (unless they are equipped as PCs, which these folks won't be).

Here are the party's stat blocks. All PCs were crafted with 25 stat point buys.

Danzo - M Elf LN, 12 Fighter (2-Weapon Warrior variant)

STR: 20 [24 w/belt]
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

Combat Block:
HP: 100
Init: +3
AC: 26 (Touch: 15, FF: 23; +2 dodge bonus on full attack)
CMD: 32
Fort: +12
Refl: +10
Will: +7 (+3 vs. fear, +2 vs. enchantment. Sleep immune.)
BAB: +12
Standard Action Attack: Both swords +21 (1d10 +13, 17-20/x2. Extra damage on evil/evil outsider targets)
Full Attack Action: Both Swords +23/+23/+18/+18/+13/+13 (1d10 +15, 17-20/x2. Extra damage on evil/evil outsider targets)

Abilities: Bravery +3, Defense Flurry (+2 dodge AC on full attack), Twin Blades (+2 atk/dam on full attack), Doublestrike (2 attacks on a standard attack), Improved Balance

Skills: Diplomacy +12, Intimidate +15, Knowledge (engineering) +17, Perception +14 Survival +15

Feats: Double Slice, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (Bastard Sword), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword), Leadership, Power Attack, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword).

Equipment: +2 holy bastard sword, +2 evil outsider bane bastard sword, +4 breastplate, ring of protection +2, belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +3, boots of elvenkind, ring of feather falling.

Ingrid - F Half-Orc N, 1 Fighter/6 Sorcerer (Cold Element Bloodline)/5 Eldritch Knight

STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 20 [24 w/headband]

Combat Block:
HP: 84
Init: +2
AC: 24 (Touch: 15, FF: 22)
CMD: 24
Fort: +12
Refl: +9
Will: +10
BAB: +9
Standard Action Attack: Falchion +16 (2d4+9, 15-20/x2)
Full Attack Action: Falchion +16/+11 (2d4+9, 15-20/x2)

Abilities: Elemental Arcana (Any energy spell can become a cold typed spell), Elemental Ray (1d6 +3 cold damage, 10/day), Cold Resist 10.

Skills: Intimidate +22, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Knowledge (Planes) +9, Spellcraft +10

Feats: Arcane Armor Training, Arcane Strike, Eschew Materials, Heighten Spell, Leadership, Power Attack, Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus (Falchion), Weapon Specialization (Falchion)

Spells: CL 10 (12 for SR checks), DC 17 + spell level (18 for evocation). Infinite/8/8/8/6/4
0-Arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
1-Burning hands (Cold), disguise self, protection from evil, shield, true strike
2-Bull's strength, glitterdust, mirror image, invisibility, scorcing Ray (Cold)
3-Dispel magic, fireball, haste
4-Confusion, fire shield
5-Hold monster

Equipment: +3 keen falchion, +5 mithral chain shirt, ring of protection +3, cloak of resistance +4, Headband of Alluring Charisma +4

Horace - M Halfling CN, 3 Rogue/4 Sorcerer (Abyssal Bloodline)/5 Arcane Trickster

STR: 8
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 11
WIS: 8
CHA: 21 [25 w/headband]

Combat Block:
HP: 88
Init: +8
AC: 23 (Touch: 17, FF: 18)
CMD: 22
Fort: +8
Refl: +11
Will: +12 (+2 vs. fear)
BAB: +6
Standard Action Attack: Rapier +12 (1d6+1, 17-20/x2)
Full Attack Action: Rapier +12/+6 (1d6+1, 17-20/x2)

Abilities: Evasion, Trapfinding (+1 perception/disable device on traps), trap sense +1, sneak attack +4d6, fast stealth, Abyssal Arcana (Summoned creatures get DR 2/good), Claws (1d4, free action, 10 rounds/day), ranged legerdemain, impromptu sneak attack 1/day, tricky spells 3/day

Skills: Acrobatics +19, Disable Device +15, Escape Artist +18, Knowledge (Arcana) +7, Perception +17, Spellcraft +11, Stealth +22

Feats: Dodge, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Spell Penetration, Toughness, Weapon Finesse

Spells: CL 9 (+2 for spell pen), DC 17+ spell level (+1 on conjuration). Infinite/8/8/8/5
0-Arcane mark, detect magic, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic
1-Cause fear, identify, shield, shocking grasp, ray of enfeeblement, summon monster I
2-Acid arrow, cat's grace, mirror image, web
3-Dispel magic, lightning bolt, stinking cloud
4-Improved invisibility, summon monster IV

Equipment: +2 ghost touch rapier, bracers of armor +6, cloak of resistance +3, headband of alluring charisma +4, ring of protection +2, boots of elvenkind, ring of mind shielding

Udri - F Dwarf NG, 12 Cleric (Sun & Weather Domains)

STR: 10
DEX: 13
CON: 16
INT: 10
WIS: 20 [24 w/headband]
CHA: 14 [18 w/headband]

Combat Block:
HP: 86
Init: +5
AC: 29 (Touch: 12, FF: 28)
CMD: 20
Fort: +14 (+2 vs poison, +2 vs. spells)
Refl: +10 (+2 vs. spells)
Will: +18 (+2 vs. spells)
BAB: +9
Standard Action Attack: Longsword +10 (1d8 +1, 19-20/x2)
Full Attack Action: Longsword +10/+5 (1d8 +1, 19-20/x2)

Abilities: Channel Positive Energy 8d6 (DC 22, 9/day), Sun's Blessing (Add +12 to channel damage vs. undead, no channel resistance), Nimbus of Light (Daylight that damages undead. 12 rounds/day), Storm Burst (1d6+6 nonlethal. Target takes -2 on attacks. 10/day), Lightning Lord (Call Lightning but 12 bolts per day)

Skills: Diplomacy +15, Heal +18, Knowledge (Religion) +11

Feats: Alignment Channel, Extra Channel, Improved Channel, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Selective Channel

Spells: CL 12, DC 17 + spell level. Infinite/6+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/4+1/3+1
0-Create water, purify food & water, resistance, stabilize
1-Command, divine favor, endure elements, protection from evil (x2), remove fear, sanctuary
2-Consecrate fog cloud, hold person (x2), lesser restoration (x2), silence
3-Bestow curse, blindness/deafness, invisibility purge, prayer, protection from energy, remove curse, searing light
4-Cure critical wounds, fire shield, freedom of movement, holy smite, restoration
5-Break enchantment, flame strike, ice storm, raise dead, true seeing
6-Blade barrier, control winds, greater dispel magic, mass cure moderate wounds

Equipment: +4 full plate, +3 large steel shield, +1 defending longsword, boots of striding & springing, phylactery of positive energy channeling, headband of mental prowess +4 (Cha & Wis), ring of feather falling, cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1

And now the cohorts. For them I used the stat block: 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. They also have gear valued for a heroic NPC instead of a PC.

Talon - M Half-elf LN, 5 Fighter/5 Rogue (Danzo's cohort via Leadership)

STR: 14
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 8

Combat Block:
HP: 54
Init: +8
AC: 20 (Touch: 15, FF: 15)
CMD: 24
Fort: +8
Refl: +10
Will: +3 (+1 vs. fear, immune to sleep, +2 vs enchantment)
BAB: +8
Standard Action Attack: Short Sword +15 (1d6 +5, 19-20/x2), or Shortbow +13 (1d6, x3)
Full Attack Action: Short Swords +13/+13/+8 (1d6 +5/+4 offhand, 19-20/x2)

Abilities: Trapfinding, Sneak Attack +3d6, Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1, Evasion, Bleeding Attack, Finesse Rogue, Bravery +1, Armor Training 1, Weapon Training +1 (short blades)

Skills: Acrobatics +17, Bluff +6, Intimidate +12, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) +12, Perception +15, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +25, Use Magic Device +11

Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Skill Focus (Stealth), Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (short sword), Weapon Specialization (short sword)

Equipment: +1 short swords (x2), MW shortbow, +1 chain shirt, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, boots of elvenkind, potion of invisibility

Kelly - F Human N, 10 Rogue (Ingrid's cohort via Leadership)

STR: 12
DEX: 18
CON: 14
INT: 14
WIS: 8
CHA: 10

Combat Block:
HP: 83
Init: +4
AC: 21 (Touch: 16, FF: 15)
CMD: 22
Fort: +6
Refl: +12
Will: +3
BAB: +7
Standard Action Attack: Short Sword +13 (1d6+2, 19-20/x2) or Shortbow +12 (1d6, x3)
Full Attack Action: Short Swords +11/+11/+6 (1d6+2, 19-20/x2)

Abilities: Sneak Attack +5d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trapfinding, Improved Evasion, Trap Sense +3, Bleeding Attack, Fast Stealth, Surprise Attack, Ledge Walker

Skills: Acrobatics +17, Appraise +13, Disable Device +17, Disguise +12, Escape Artist +17, Intimidate +13, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +17, Stealth +20, Use Magic Device +13

Feats: Alertness, Dodge, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Short Sword)

[/b]Equipment: [/b]+1 short swords (x2), MW shortbow +1 chain shirt, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1, boots of elvenkind, potion of invisibility

So there's our party of intrepid (?) adventurers. Now let's look at the enemies. The enemies will also use the stat block: 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15. They also have gear valued for a heroic NPC instead of a PC.

Ninja - M or F Human N, 10 Ninja

STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 8
CHA: 14

Combat Block:
HP: 80
Init: +7
AC: 19 (Touch: 14, FF: 16)
CMD: 20
Fort: +6
Refl: +11
Will: +3
BAB: +7
Standard Action Attack: Shortbow +12 (1d6 +1 [+1 within 30 ft], x3) or Short sword +11 (1d6 +1, 19-20/x2)
Full Attack Action: Shortbow +10/+10/+5 (1d6 +1 [+1 within 30 ft], x3) or Short sword +9/+9/+4 (1d6 +1, 19-20/x2)

Abilities: Sneak Attack +5d6, No Trace +3, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Light Steps, Ki Pool (7 points), Poison Use, Vanishing Trick, Deadly Range, Bleeding Attack, Weapon Training, Invisible Blade

Skills: Acrobatics +16, Bluff +15, Disguise +18, Escape Artist +16, Perception 12, Sleight of Hand +16, Stealth +16 (+3 when still), Use Magic Device +15

Feats: Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Shortbow)

Equipment: +1 short bow w/40 arrows, MW short swords (x2), +1 chain shirt, ring of protection +1, cloak of resistance +1

Alright, let's get to the combat.

The place: A back street in a major bustling city. The street itself is fifteen feet wide, flanked on either side by shops and buildings averaging 8-10 feet tall. The party is walking down the street, the ninjas are positioned on the rooftops, lying still against the tiles. If I wanted to be especially cruel I could say that they used their Vanishing Trick while they moved into position before attacking, but let's just say they don't. I'll assume they have average result on their stealth checks and put the perception DC at a 29.

Perception checks: Talon: 30, Kelly: 26, Udri: 8, Danzo: 24, Ingrid: 17, Horace: 26. It should be pointed out that the characters in the party with high ranks in perception still have a less than 50% chance to see the ninjas. Talon is the only one who sees, so he gets to act in the surprise round.

SURPRISE ROUND

Initiative:
Ninja 2 - 25
Ninja 1 - 24
Ninja 3 - 23
Talon - 21
Ninja 4 - 20
Ninja 5 - 11

Layout: 3 ninjas on the western roof approximately 15 feet away from the center of the street, three on the eastern roof. The party is marching single-file down the alleyway (I know I know but I'm not uploading a paint map for this). Marching order is Danzo, Ingrid, Horace, Udri, Talon, Kelly. The ninja are all within 40 feet of the party.

Ninjas 1-3: Each use a swift action to use hidden blade to turn invisible and fire a single bow shot into the crowd. Let's assume they do not have any research of their foes beyond what is obvious. So they aim for the half-orc with the falchion , figuring her for the big nasty fighter type. 3 attacks: 17 (miss), 26 (hit), and 27 (hit). 23 damage from the first attack, 20 from the second for 43. Ingrid isn't looking so good and will also take 5 points of bleed damage on her turn.

Talon grits his teeth, cursing his lack of foresight and launches an arrow from his shortbow at one of the remaining visible ninjas. I could argue that they have cover from the awnings of the roof but we'll just say they don't. Talon rolls a 27 and hits easily, dealing 15 points of damage.

Ninjas 4&5 also use hidden blade and launch an arrow at Talon. They could press the attack on Ingrid and possibly kill her, but just to spread things out we'll say they don't. 2 attacks: 30 (hit) and 23 (hit). 24 and 20 points of damage for 44 total. Talon will also take 5 points of bleed on his turn. He is near death.

ROUND 1

The party joins the fray now.

Initiative:
Ninja 2 - 25
Ninja 1 - 24
Kelly - 23
Ninja 3 - 23
Talon - 21
Horace - 20
Ninja 4 - 20
Danzo - 16
Udri - 13
Ninja 5 - 11
Ingrid - 3

Ninjas 1 and 2 maintain an eerie sense of detached calm and focus their bows on Ingrid, both of them using Rapid shot and looking to end her life with a flurry of arrows ala the movie Hero on a much much smaller scale. 6 attacks total: 22 (hit), 16, 8, 25 (hit), 24 (hit), 9. 3 hits for 24, 21, and 23 damage. Totalling up the damage, Ingrid has taken 111 points of damage making her resemble a very gory pincoushin. Also, she is very, very dead.

Kelly screams obscenities at their unluck but has no way of determining where the invisible targets are so she holds her bow ready and delays.

Ninja 3 decides that with Ingrid down, now would be an excellent time to finish off Talon. He too uses rapid shot and fires away. 20 (hit), 17 (hit), 13 (miss). 2 more hits for 17 and 24 damage. Putting his total damage at 85, almost double his maximum hit points. He resembles a grease stain on the cobblestones.

Horace now goes. He cannot target any of the ninja for dispel magic so he tries to buy some time by launching a stinking cloud in the area where the two ninjas were (and are still) standing (these are the ones who have not taken shots yet). Ninjas fort saves: 18, 19. Both fail, becoming nauseated.

Ninja 4 is nauseated and uses his single action to move 30 feet down the rooftop and out of the range of the cloud. He will be nauseated for 1 more round.

Danzo is pissed as hell at losing his cohort but will wait for Udri's turn before acting...

Udri does have a true seeing so she moves to Danzo and casts it upon him, granting him the sight with which to slay his attackers

Danzo now tries to climb up the wall. I'll give the wall a DC 10 since there are some barrels and boxes around to stand on. He rolls a 14, making it up to the roof.

Kelly stops delaying at this point and fires a full round attack at Ninja 1. 2 attacks: 24 and 14. 1 hit for 5 damage.

Ninja 5 is also nauseated but still invisible, he moves in the opposite direction from his comrade and out of the cloud but is still nauseated for 4 rounds.

ROUND 2

Let's review. Ingrid and Talon are dead. Ninja 4 is nauseated for this round, Ninja 5 is nauseated for 4 rounds but both are invisible (and out of range of delivering sneak attacks with their bows). Danzo climbed up to the roof near Ninjas 1-3. Let's call it 5 and 10 and 15 feet away.

Initiative:
Ninja 2 - 25
Ninja 1 - 24
Ninja 3 - 23
Horace - 20
Ninja 4 - 20 (nauseated)
Danzo - 16
Udri - 13
Kelly - 12 (delayed)
Ninja 5 - 11 (nauseated)

Ninjas 2 and 1 both do not know that Danzo can see them now. The one that was closer to Danzo takes a 5 foot step away, they both unleash another full round of arrows into the elf. 6 attacks: 14, 27 (hit), 16, 29 (hit), 19, 22. 2 hits for 4 and 4 for 9 total. They seem confused that they did not get their sneak attack bonus.

Ninja 3 dislikes Horace's tricks. He ignores the elf for now and aims for the halfling. 3 attacks: 20, 24, 24. 3 hits against him for 25, 27, and 27 (Yes I rolled remarkably well for those). That's a total of 79 with another 5 points of bleed damage coming on his round

Horace's turn, he takes 5 points of damage (leaving him with 4 hp) and at this point his own survival instincts kick in and he moves next to the cleric. He also will cast mirror image on himself, giving himself 4 extra images.

Ninja 4 is nauseated, he spends his turn trying to prevent his innards from climbing up his throat and soiling a perfectly good black silk face mask. After 6 seconds, he feels much better

Danzo roars with anger and defiance and moves in to attack one of the ninjas while power attacking. His blades keen out, closing the 10 foot gap as he swings out twice. Crit threat (confirmed on a 34), and 23 will also hit. One crit for 58 and one regular hit for 23 for a total of 81 points of damage. Ninja 1 goes down.

Udri channels positive energy to hit Danzo and Horace. As a GM I make a call on her selective channeling, judging that since it works on life forces she can still use selective channel. She leaves out the damaged ninja and heals 20 points to Danzo and Horace.

Kelly tries for a perception check against one of the snipers, rolling a 26 and manages to pinpoint Ninja 3 in his square. She fires twice rolling a 16 and a natural 20 (which does not confirm on a 14). Miss chance does not negate her hit, so she deals 4 points of damage.

Ninja 5 will remain nauseated and generally have a very large frown on his face as his bowels tie themselves in a knot that would make Alexander the Great cringe.

ROUND 3

Ok. Kelly has pinpointed the square Ninja 3 is in. Danzo has killed Ninja 1 and is looking to murder Ninja 2. Horace is at 24 hit points, Danzo is at full. Ninja 4 is no longer nauseated, ninja 5 still has 3 rounds.

Initiative:
Ninja 2 - 25
Ninja 3 - 23
Horace - 20
Ninja 4 - 20
Danzo - 16
Udri - 13
Kelly - 12 (delayed)
Ninja 5 - 11 (nauseated)

Ninja 2 now realizes Danzo can see them and moves back rapidly to be next to Ninja 3. He also fires a shot at Danzo as he does, rolling a 24 and missing. He then prepares to stand against Danzo who will likely turn the other ninjas into deli-sliced ninja ham.

Ninja 3 hones in on Horace, firing 3 more shots at 27, 30, and 9. 2 hits on his mirror images. He is now down to 2 more images.

Horace takes some time to catch his breath and also get some defense by casting greater invisibility on himself and moving somewhat.

Ninja 4 puts some arrows into Kelly, deciding that it is time for her to disappear. Fortunately she has uncanny dodge so she won't be eating the sneak attack damage. 3 attacks: 20, 27, and 10. 2 hits for 6 and 3 damage.

Danzo moves in, closing the distance to Ninja 2 and makes some more attacks with power attack. 2 attacks: 30, 35. 2 hits for 23 and 22 points of damage.

Udri opts to aim a greater dispel magic at the place where arrows shot at Kelly with an area dispel. She rolls a 26 to dispel, ninja 4 becomes visible again.

Kelly turns to the ninja and launches some arrows of her own, rolling a 13 and 24. 1 hit for 5 points of damage.

Ninja 5 really wishes he could help out in this situation, but he is still trying to keep his gut in this dimension.

ROUND 4

The party is beginning to recover at this point. Danzo has reduced Ninja 2 to 35 hit points. Horace is now invisible and unable to be seen by any of the ninja while he recuperates. Udri still has plenty of healing. At this point it would be wise for the ninjas to engage in strafing tactics to try and pick off Udri but we'll see what happens. Ninja 5 is nauseated for 2 rounds still.

Initiative:
Ninja 2 - 25
Ninja 3 - 23
Horace - 20
Ninja 4 - 20
Danzo - 16
Udri - 13
Kelly - 12 (delayed)
Ninja 5 - 11 (nauseated)

Ninja 2 and 3 now realize that Udri is the healer of the party and focus their shots on her, figuring if they can get her down before Danzo works his way through them, they'll be able to pick off the remainder of the party at their leisure. 6 attacks: 28, Crit Threat (not confirmed), 22, 21, 31, 27. 2 hits for 23 and 18 for a total of 41 damage with an additional 5 coming to her on her turn.

Horace reviews his options. He can see Ninja 4 so he opts to throw another stinking cloud on him. Ninja 4 fails his roll on a 7.

Ninja 4 moves out of the new cloud and will remain nauseated for 2 rounds. He is very unhappy to boot.

Danzo moves up to Ninja 2 again, a grin of death on his face as he continues to power attack and slash. 2 attacks: 34, crit threat (confirmed on a 32). 22 and 42 damage. Ninja two is severed neatly in half, with bits of him raining down to the street below.

Udri opts to channel again, catching herself, Kelly and Horace and selectively leaving out any damaged ninjas. They are each restored 25 points of damage.

Kelly aims some bow shots at the nauseated ninja 4, rolling a 21 and 7. 1 more hit for 2 points of damage.

Ninja 5 remains nauseated, but he can see the way things are going and begins to move further away from the conflict, looking for escape.

By this point it is safe to say that Danzo will continue mopping up any ninja who is foolish enough to remain while True Seeing is still active. Horace will continue throwing stinking clouds where he can or use summon monster for additional support. I will award victory to the party at this point by having the ninja engage in a retreat. If they escape, the three remaining ninja may return to attack them before they can rest, once Danzo is lacking the true seeing to handle them.

Breakdown: First, the ninja were definitely at an advantage with the surprise round, but even without that their initiative numbers were high enough that they would have a good chance to eliminate Ingrid in the first round. If Udri did not have true seeing prepared that day, the ninjas would have continued to eliminate Danzo and then systematically work their way through the rest of the party. Even with greater dispel magic, any ninja with the hidden blade talent (and why wouldn't you have it?) can just toss up a quickened greater invisibility again. Keep in mind that these were NPC ninjas, regular wimps designed to be thrown at the party in droves, or at least a couple added on to an encounter here and there. If this was say...4 ninjas and a sorcerer with similar spell selection to Horace...or heck, if the ninjas had wands of dispel magic to get rid of Danzo's true seeing...All I'm saying is as it is...one spell and a surprise round made this encounter. Yes you can make arguments for fighters to have potions of see invisibility, but that will only give them three rounds per standard rules and if you have extra ninja to spare...Blindfight would work, though not for this fight since it doesn't protect vs. ranged attacks.

I suppose what I take away from this is the self-sufficient ability to cast a quickened greater invisibility is a coup and can make your encounter much nastier than you may expect.

Then again, Blind-Fighting removes a lot of the ninja's advantage if they aren't ranged focused. Perhaps the balance of your cooler tricks being negated with a single feat was something the developers had in mind? A question for the ages.

-------------------------------------
Real Ultimate Power

Meet Makoto, a level 20 ninja. Her clan has been beset by demons for generations and she has built herself up as a slayer of demons. Here is her abridged character sheet (built with 20 points, yes I adapted her from Tanaka from my other review):

STR: 16 [20 w/belt]
DEX: 26 [30 w/belt]
CON: 16 [20 w/belt]
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 10 [16 w/headband]

Her equipment:

+5 holy cold iron short swords (x2) - 200,620 gp
+5 Greater Shadow Improved Fire Resist Mithral Chain Shirt - 102,000 gp
+4 Shortbow - 32,330 gp
Headband of Alluring Charisma +6 - 36,000 gp
Belt of Phys. Perfection +4 - 64,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 - 25,000 gp
Pale Green Prism Ioun Stone - 30,000 gp
Ring of Protection +5 - 50,000 gp
Ring of Evasion - 25,000 gp
Amulet of Nat. Armor +5 - 50,000 gp
Winged Boots - 16,000 gp
Manuals - 220,000 gp
Other Gear - 29,050 gp

Feats:
Human Bonus Improved Initiative
1st level Weapon Finesse
3rd level Two-Weapon Fighting
5th level Weapon Focus (Short Sword)
7th level Toughness
9th level Dodge
11th level Improved Critical (Short Sword)
13th level Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
15th level Stealthy
17th level Alertness
19th level Greater Two-Weapon Fighting

Tricks (13 ki points): Vanishing Trick, Fast Stealth, Shadow Clone, Smoke Bombs, Hidden Blade, Blinding Bomb, Sudden Disguise, Ghost Step, See the Unseen.

Skills: Let's say she took the favored class bonus every level for an extra skill point.
Acrobatics 20 ranks +10 dex +3 trained = +33
Bluff 20 ranks +3 cha +3 trained = +26
Climb 20 ranks +5 str +3 trained = +28
Disguise 20 ranks +3 cha +3 trained +6 no trace = +32
Disable Device 20 ranks +10 dex +3 trained = +33
Escape Artist 20 ranks +10 dex +4 feat +3 trained = +37
Perception 20 ranks +0 wis +4 feat +3 trained = +27
Sleight of Hand 20 ranks +10 dex +3 trained = +33
Stealth 20 ranks +10 dex +4 feat +15 armor +3 trained = +52 (+6 while motionless)
Use Magic Device 20 ranks +3 cha +3 trained = +26

Hit Points: Assume max for 1st level and average for every other roll
8+4.5(x19)+100 (con) +20 (toughness) = 213(.5) hit points.

She is primarily a two-weapon fighter, but resorts to bow shots when necessary.

Attack Bonus with her short swords is: +15 BAB +10 DEX +1 Weapon Focus +5 enhancement bonus, -2 dual-wielding = +29/+29/24/+24/+19/+19
Damage line for his katana is: 1d6 +10 (+7 on offhand) +2d6 vs evil (17-20/x2)

AC: 35 (+9 armor, +6 dex, +5 deflection, +5 natural)
CMD: 40 (+15 BAB, +5 STR, +10 DEX)

Her saves are:
Fort: +16
Refl: +27
Will: +11

Just for a lark, let's say she goes and infiltrates a Balor's stronghold on her earthly plane. Let's assume this place is filled with guards, some magical traps and mundane traps. Even if she rolls a 1 on stealth, only the Balor can detect her and even then only has a 25% chance to succeed. But, say she has to avoid some pitfalls and magic seals and whatnot. Let's say she blows 5 points of her ki pool using improved invisibility and ghost step to circumvent traps and make it to the Balor's sanctum. She is now in the room, hiding comfortably as she observes him. In the optimum of situations she is able to use Hidden Master and calmly sneak up beside him, unleashing a single attack in the surprise round. Since she cannot be detected by any means, not even sipdey sense can allow the Balor to detect her.

Let's continue to use average rolls. On a 10, Makoto will hit the Balor's flat-footed AC. She will opt to ignore her extra damage dice and instead deal 10 points of juicy con damage to the balor. In addition to 20 points of damage from her blade, the Balor also loses 100 hit points from his con damage.

Initiative happens. Once again, average rolls, Makoto goes first. On a roll of a 10 she will hit on every single attack. Each attack will deal 55 points of damage. That is a total of 330 points of damage. The Balor is dead in approximately 9 seconds from when she started. Afterwards, she makes her reflex save on a 10 to avoid his death throes taking no damage, and prances her way out the way she came, running at maximum speed and ghost-stepping through walls until she is a safe distance away. Or, if she has a scroll of teleport, she uses it on an average skill check result and disappears.

Ok, fine...but she's specialized to fight against demons. Let's do a Solar instead.

Makoto infiltrates the heavens themselves, her stealth score easily keeping her hidden and her natural invisibility helping her to move from cover to cover. The Solar has to roll a natural 20 to detect Makoto if she gets close enough. Again, let's say she uses 5 points of her ki pool evading patrols, walking through walls, and the like. She is now in the room where the Solar is leading a prayer to the gods of goodness and light. Once again, she fires off Hidden Master and walks calmly up to the Solar.

Makoto still manages to hit on an average roll of a 10, but her weapon doesn't overcome DR this time. She'll have to keep 1d6 sneak attack in order to deal enough damage to overcome the Solar's DR. So that's only 88 points of hit points removed from massive con loss. Oh and another 1 point of damage from the sword slice.

Makoto wins initiative again. This time she has a harder time of it, slicing away with basic rolls she will only hit on her first two attacks for another 80 points of damage total. About a third of the Solar's hit points gone. She would not be able to assassinate him easily with her current set up since the Solar would be able to simply heal itself while he waited for Makoto's invisibility to wear off.

Still, in 9 seconds, she reduced the HP of a CR 23 creature by 1/3. Nothing to shake a stick at, but considering that the solar would laugh off the save or die attack of a rogue, it further serves to how Hidden Master can be used to great effect.

Still not convinced? Let's look at what havoc a ninja can accomplish amongst her own kind. Makoto is sent to assassinate the Shogun, Tanaka. For the Shogun I'll just use the stats I have for a level 20 samurai from my other review. He also has a cadre of 6 level 15 guards (also pulled from my samurai review). They are currently holding war council in his chambers. And just for added fun let's say he has four braziers of revealing that put out constant invisibility purges every round. One in each corner of the room.

Makoto sneaks into the room using ghost step. As humans without ranks in perceptions, the samurai gathered have no chance to detect her as long as there is anything for her to hide behind (like a brazier for instance). Hidden Master time.

Here's how it goes down.

Surprise round on Shogun Tanaka. Makoto can easily hit him even on a 10. That's 120 on the first attack. Three more strikes when she wins initiative (and the odds are typically in her favor) and he goes down.

Their shogun suddenly murdered in a locked room, any samurai who is foolish enough to rush to their master's side is similarly cut down with three strokes. 75+20 on the first attack, then 55 damage a piece until the samurai go down (average of four total strikes). It will take her some time, and of course that's assuming no crits. But the ONLY way that I can see for a ninja in Hidden Master to be countered is with disjunction, targeted dispel magic, or an antimagic field.

So approximately half a minute later when all the samurai in the room are dead, Makoto disappears through a wall and escapes, leaving 7 bodies in a locked room for investigators to puzzle over.

I guess the point I'm trying to make here is...with a little bit of research, a level 20 ninja can conceivably single-handedly kill (almost) any monster or NPC in the book. She would probably fall short on the Shoggoth or anything else that was immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, but otherwise...dragons, devils, demons, celestial beings. And this is just a single ninja. If she had a twin sister? Well...the numbers are all here, if you want to see try it out for yourself.

-------------------------------------
Concepts & Conclusion
Once again I will say that this is the best representation of a Ninja that I've seen. Largely accurate from a historical basis, while capturing much of the mythos presented in contemporary media without delving into the ridiculous gimmicks of Naruto or Basilisk. That being said, I'm beginning to think the class is simply too darn good. My knowledge of ninja is not nearly as deep as my knowledge on samurai, but I do know that their skill sets are based largely in sabotage (check) and stealth (double-check). One thing I dug up in research on the ninja for this review is that there is apparently precedence for historical ninja to be quite the outdoorsman as well. Not sure if it really meshes with the flavor of the class as presented, but it's something to think about.

Actually, and I don't usually say this, I was quite impressed by the information available on Wikipedia.

Go check it out if you haven't already, and if you like what you read there...check out some of the references at the bottom of the page.

As for my original thesis, I think the answer is: I have no idea. I have faith that the rogue tricks presented in the book will be of a similar level to the ninja ones we're seeing, but it really doesn't lend credence to playing a rogue if Ninja have access to all of them as well. My knee-jerk reaction is to say drop the ability for ninjas to pick up rogue talents, but that's only one facet of the larger gem. Even if we remove tricks from both classes entirely, we're left with Ninja getting an extra ability (Light Steps), a more versatile ability (Ki Pool), more weapon proficiencies, and a better level 20 ability. Not to mention it is fairly easy for them to buy off their disadvantages.

So that's it. A lot of it's probably already been said out there but I think the louder and more resonant the voice, the better.

Kevin (CDP)

[Shadow_of_death]

this was certainly an interesting read (although one note: the ninja can only take a single rogue talent and a single advanced rogue talent)

you seem to have the same conclusions as most, the ninja isn't way to good the rogue just doesn't keep up

and at level 20 I would hope a ninja would be that sneaky, that's the fun of being level 20

[magnuskn]

Just a counterpoint to the combat encounter you did with the adventuring party against five Ninja:

If the opponents would have consisted of five Rogues and one Sorcerer, the Sorcerer could have cast Greater Invisibility on them, too. In essence, what you seem to argueing against, is that the Ninjas get to be self-sufficient in that regard, while the Rogues are not.

The Shadow Clones are really very, very good, though.

[BobChuck]

magnuskn wrote:

Just a counterpoint to the combat encounter you did with the adventuring party against five Ninja:

If the opponents would have consisted of five Rogues and one Sorcerer, the Sorcerer could have cast Greater Invisibility on them, too. In essence, what you seem to argueing against, is that the Ninjas get to be self-sufficient in that regard, while the Rogues are not.

No.

The sorcerer could cast it on one Rogue a round, with a duration of only 10 rounds (so no/limited pre-buffing), at the cost of a 4th level spell slot.

I'm assuming, of course, that the sorcerer has already invisibled himself (better duration), and will not be casting any offensive spells (so as to not break the spell).

The provieded encounter plays out much the same way, with a few important changes.

1) Ninja 5 (the guy who only acted for 2 rounds before getting nauseated) is substituted for the sorcerer, so the party takes 2 less Full Round Sneak Attacks.
2) Ninjas 1 and 2 get Greater Invisibled; Ninjas 3 and 4 are just stealth-ed. Sorcerer takes no other actions.
3) Because Ninjas 3 and 4 are just stealthed, they only get off two full round sneak attacks (surprise + flat-footed at the start), so the surprise round and first round play out normally, minus Ninja 5.
4) Ninja 3 and 4 are visible, so they get hit with multiple full rounds from bows, and stinking could goes off much sooner, dispel magic is mroe likely to get cast, and the melee character starts scaling the wall and slaughtering ninja in the first round.

Because of all this, the encounter is likely over several rounds earlier, with only Ingrid dead/seriously injured.

Huge Difference.

All because of one single talent.

[YuenglingDragon]

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again. The Ninja is strong without a doubt. However, this strenght merely serves to balance it with caster classes and classes which combine casting and combat like the Inquisitor.

[magnuskn]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again. The Ninja is strong without a doubt. However, this strenght merely serves to balance it with caster classes and classes which combine casting and combat like the Inquisitor.

Yep. The problem is that everybody is comparing it to the Rogue, not to other classes.

[idilippy]

magnuskn wrote:

YuenglingDragon wrote:

I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again. The Ninja is strong without a doubt. However, this strenght merely serves to balance it with caster classes and classes which combine casting and combat like the Inquisitor.

Yep. The problem is that everybody is comparing it to the Rogue, not to other classes.

It's a rogue alternate class though, so like it or not it needs to be balanced against the base rogue, not against all other classes. Now if the basic rogue is going to get an upgrade in Ultimate Combat to put it on the same level as the ninja, that's great, but if the ninja outclasses the rogue to the point where it is the obvious choice for a stealthy character something needs to change.

I liked the 20th level ninja infiltrating the 15th level samurai stronghold part of the playtest. That's the kind of thing I'd like a rogue to be able to do at 20th level, infiltrate a group of weaker beings, strike them repeatedly from hiding, and leave panic, confusion, and dying enemies behind when they leave.

[CDProtocol]

It's exactly as idilippy says. If they present to me a class and say: This is going to be a rogue alternate class, if you take levels in this you cannot take rogue levels...well yea, obviously I'm going to compare it to a rogue. It would be a different matter if it was a completely unique class like the Magus or anything presented in the APB.

In the course of conducting this review I was hard pressed to find any strong favorable points for still being a rogue. Granted things like the Thug variant from APB are nice, but nothing is just quite as nice as the Ninja.

[YuenglingDragon]

CDProtocol wrote:

It's exactly as idilippy says. If they present to me a class and say: This is going to be a rogue alternate class, if you take levels in this you cannot take rogue levels...well yea, obviously I'm going to compare it to a rogue. It would be a different matter if it was a completely unique class like the Magus or anything presented in the APB.

In the course of conducting this review I was hard pressed to find any strong favorable points for still being a rogue. Granted things like the Thug variant from APB are nice, but nothing is just quite as nice as the Ninja.

Compare it all you want. I just don't think that the fact that it is better than the anemic Rogue is a valid argument for hitting it with a nerf stick, which is what you seem to suggest.

Additionally, if you assume that the Rogue gets better in UC but don't know how, comparing it to the Rogue makes still less sense. Compare it to other classes for now so we can see how it balances in the game. Then when UC comes out you can ask again, with enough information to draw a valid conclusion, "Will I ever play a Rogue again?"

[idilippy]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Compare it all you want. I just don't think that the fact that it is better than the anemic Rogue is a valid argument for hitting it with a nerf stick, which is what you seem to suggest.

Additionally, if you assume that the Rogue gets better in UC but don't know how, comparing it to the Rogue makes still less sense. Compare it to other classes for now so we can see how it balances in the game. Then when UC comes out you can ask again, with enough information to draw a valid conclusion, "Will I ever play a Rogue again?"

Being much better than a rogue, when it is a rogue-equivalent class, is a valid argument that the ninja is too powerful. And it does make sense to judge the ninja side by side with the rogue since they are supposed to be part of the same base class family. They have the same BAB and saves, mostly the same skills, and gain abilities almost exactly as often, outside of the out of place Light Steps in the ninja progression. Since they are meant to be equivalent they should be compared as if they were and if the ninja is so great that everyone should take it instead of a rogue that's a problem.

Since we don't know exactly how, or if, the rogue is going to get an upgrade in Ultimate Combat all anyone can do is compare it to the rogue now and draw a conclusion. The conclusion of this dissertation seems to be that the ninja is stronger, that's it. This doesn't mean that Paizo needs to hit the wizard with a nerf stick, strengthening the rogue is an equally valid way to deal with the ninja's increased power, but we can't know if this is going to happen. Dissertations and playtests that let Paizo know how the Ninja compares to the rogue probably help them see what needs to be changed about either class while they're still working on Ultimate Combat.

[Shadow_of_death]

nerfing the ninja because he is better then a rogue doesn't solve the problem you pose.

If you wouldn't ever play a rogue because of the ninja then you probably already never play a rogue and use a ranger (ya know, the class that is already a better rogue)

I would prefer to have a class that is a valuable party member then one to stand next to the rogue just to make it look better by comparison.

[CDProtocol]

I did not actually call for a nerf to the ninja, or any other class during the course of this piece. In the end, the objective was simply to present data, observations, and opinions based on those two things. A partial nerf might be appropriate, but I'm not the one being paid to make those decisions. All I can hope to do is to show examples of what the class is capable of compared to another member of its own archtype. If I had more time, sure I wouldn't mind comparing it to an Inquisitor, or a Monk, or anything else. But how much would that mean if I just stood here and churned out information on a class by class basis from a single perspective?

Feel free to use the stats presented here, and draw comparisons to other classes. The heartier the debate, the better the book will be when it is published.

[YuenglingDragon]

idilippy wrote:

Being much better than a rogue, when it is a rogue-equivalent class, is a valid argument that the ninja is too powerful.

Or an argument that the Rogue is too weak. Considering that many people agree that the Rogue is weak, this might be a better philosophy.

idilippy wrote:

And it does make sense to judge the ninja side by side with the rogue since they are supposed to be part of the same base class family. They have the same BAB and saves, mostly the same skills, and gain abilities almost exactly as often, outside of the out of place Light Steps in the ninja progression. Since they are meant to be equivalent they should be compared as if they were and if the ninja is so great that everyone should take it instead of a rogue that's a problem.

If the Rogue is not good and we require the Ninja to be no better than the Rogue then the Ninja will be what...? Not good, that's correct.

CDProtocol wrote:

I did not actually call for a nerf to the ninja, or any other class during the course of this piece. In the end, the objective was simply to present data, observations, and opinions based on those two things.

I was careful not to say that you called for a nerfing to the class. You did not. However, your presentation and analysis seems to imply that. That's why I said you "seem to suggest" that.

You present an attack against your PC's which was designed to give the Ninjas an advantage. You even called it "Feel like Killing a PC?" You put the Ninjas on top of a building, where they could lay in ambush and where it would be harder for the PC's to get to them. From an encounter design perspective, that seems to indicate that this would be much closer to a CR14 encounter, hard for your PC's. It is not surprising that they took a whacking. Plus, your party is truly full of character and undoubtedly a lot of fun but not exactly optimized (Except for Leadership. You really let your players take that feat? You are in a small minority there.)

Your 20th level encounters, while fun to read, mean little. 20th level is where characters are pretty much at world-breaking capacity. Few players go that high because its just too much of a pain to manage PC's that high. That's why neither the AP's nor Pathfinder Society modules go that high.

CDProtocol wrote:

A partial nerf might be appropriate, but I'm not the one being paid to make those decisions. All I can hope to do is to show examples of what the class is capable of compared to another member of its own archtype. If I had more time, sure I wouldn't mind comparing it to an Inquisitor, or a Monk, or anything else. But how much would that mean if I just stood here and churned out information on a class by class basis from a single perspective?

Again, balance the Ninja against the poopy Rogue as it is now and you'll just get a poopy Ninja. Yay, another class too awful to play!

You set the Ninja up to succeed like crazy. With all due respect, that only shows biased information about what the class is capable of.

CDProtocol wrote:

Feel free to use the stats presented here, and draw comparisons to other classes. The heartier the debate, the better the book will be when it is published.

I'll try and find the time. We'll see. I'd have to pull together a party to do it. As you know, these things are pretty time consuming.

Finally, I wish to explicitly show my respect for your hard work here and in other threads, regardless of my opinions about some aspects of this thread. In particular, your Samurai playtest is probably the most cogent and complete available.

[idilippy]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

idilippy wrote:

Being much better than a rogue, when it is a rogue-equivalent class, is a valid argument that the ninja is too powerful.

Or an argument that the Rogue is too weak. Considering that many people agree that the Rogue is weak, this might be a better philosophy.

You're right, I should have finished that sentence with "the ninja is too powerful in comparison to the base rogue." I wasn't trying to imply, and I don't think this dissertation did either, that the only solution was to dump the ninja, or that the ninja would start being the most powerful class of all time, only that is was more powerful than the rogue, and too powerful if you leave it and the rogue as is.

idilippy wrote:

And it does make sense to judge the ninja side by side with the rogue since they are supposed to be part of the same base class family. They have the same BAB and saves, mostly the same skills, and gain abilities almost exactly as often, outside of the out of place Light Steps in the ninja progression. Since they are meant to be equivalent they should be compared as if they were and if the ninja is so great that everyone should take it instead of a rogue that's a problem.

If the Rogue is not good and we require the Ninja to be no better than the Rogue then the Ninja will be what...? Not good, that's correct.

You'll notice that I said, at least once, that making the rogue stronger was also a possibility for the designers, and that comparing the rogue to the ninja helps determine that. If the designers read these threads and say, "Wow, the ninja is great and seems fun but it completely outclasses the rogue, let's make sure to address that by strengthening the rogue" I'd be all for it. I like playing rogues, and I've had fun creating ninja NPCs to fight my players, I think there's a valid argument for leaving the ninja alone and raising the rogue to their level.

All I wanted to point out was that we have to compare the ninja to the rogue to get things like this, comparing a ninja to someone with a completely different role in the group doesn't help the designers see what changes they need to make.

[YuenglingDragon]

Sure it's good that the designers be aware that the Rogue isn't good. But this isn't the first thread to do so. Not by a long shot. Because it started around beta testing of the class (not that I was here for that but I'm aware of the phenomenon).

What threads like this seem to do, in my opinion, is bang the drum of "this is too good to be a Rogue." This is the wrong tone to take.

The Ninja, as written, has a lot of potential to scout, kill, and use skills effectively. That sounds pretty much exactly like what a Rogue should be doing.

[VM mercenario]

Small fix that's propably already planned:

New Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick
New Advanced Talent: Master Trick

The guys at Paizo are smart, if they allow the ninja to take rogue talents the reverse is only obvious.
Why can ninjas get rogue tricks? It makes so that they don't have to make separate lists every time they come up with new rogue talents in the next books since the ninja can just pick them.

[YuenglingDragon]

VM mercenario wrote:

Small fix that's propably already planned:

New Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick
New Advanced Talent: Master Trick

The guys at Paizo are smart, if they allow the ninja to take rogue talents the reverse is only obvious.
Why can ninjas get rogue tricks? It makes so that they don't have to make separate lists every time they come up with new rogue talents in the next books since the ninja can just pick them.

This is undoubtedly true. I hope that the Rogue Talent will be able to be selected multiple times, though the Ninja Trick should only be allowed once. This will provide a better balance between the variants, I think.

[Shadow_of_death]

Quote:

If the Rogue is not good and we require the Ninja to be no better than the Rogue then the Ninja will be what...? Not good, that's correct.

You'll notice that I said, at least once, that making the rogue stronger was also a possibility for the designers, and that comparing the rogue to the ninja helps determine that. If the designers read these threads and say, "Wow, the ninja is great and seems fun but it completely outclasses the rogue, let's make sure to address that by strengthening the rogue" I'd be all for it. I like playing rogues, and I've had fun creating ninja NPCs to fight my players, I think there's a valid argument for leaving the ninja alone and raising the rogue to their level.

Its too bad the designers already said they don't believe the rogue is any weaker then the rest of the classes so it wont be getting a boost. New talents? probably but if your expecting an overall power boost then you'll be disappointed

[Helaman]

idilippy wrote:

It's a rogue alternate class though, so like it or not it needs to be balanced against the base rogue, not against all other classes. Now if the basic rogue is going to get an upgrade in Ultimate Combat to put it on the same level as the ninja, that's great, but if the ninja outclasses the rogue to the point where it is the obvious choice for a stealthy character something needs to change.

Thats more less the guts of my argument for the Ninja and samurai - they *must* be compared to the base class they come from.

Saying the Rogue/Cav is crap and needs an upgrade so we'll boost the new guys is part of obseleting the base classes they come from... and its definete power creep.

[YuenglingDragon]

Shadow_of_death wrote:

Its too bad the designers already said they don't believe the rogue is any weaker then the rest of the classes so it wont be getting a boost. New talents? probably but if your expecting an overall power boost then you'll be disappointed

I hadn't seen them make any such claim. I don't suppose you have a link?

If that is their position, they've clearly not done the math nor do they seem to have a finger on the pulse of the community. The Monk, Rogue, and Fighter (to a lesser degree) are classes desperately in need of revision or at least some sort of help.

[Midnightoker]

YuenglingDragon wrote:

Shadow_of_death wrote:

Its too bad the designers already said they don't believe the rogue is any weaker then the rest of the classes so it wont be getting a boost. New talents? probably but if your expecting an overall power boost then you'll be disappointed

I hadn't seen them make any such claim. I don't suppose you have a link?

If that is their position, they've clearly not done the math nor do they seem to have a finger on the pulse of the community. The Monk, Rogue, and Fighter (to a lesser degree) are classes desperately in need of revision or at least some sort of help.

Well the fighter just shouldnt be a basic one trick pony. more narrative power for the fighter definitely couldnt hurt.

As for the Monk and Rogue I for the most part agree. Although I would argue the monk (with the APG) is far more capable since his Shepherd's Pie of abilities can now be made into an ensemble recipe.

YMMV I suppose.

EDIT: Yuengling you should totally make a build for a ghost monk/ninja. I am curious how it would play out in an arena of combat.

[YuenglingDragon]

Midnightoker wrote:

EDIT: Yuengling you should totally make a build for a ghost monk/ninja. I am curious how it would play out in an arena of combat.

I don't want to threadjack Protocol here. I'll just say that I don't see a synergy worth exploiting here. Yes, getting back ki points is nice, but slowing down Ninja progression isn't worth it in my opinion.

[CDProtocol]

All excellent points once again. And thanks for the recognition that this was a sizable time sink.

The situation I set up in the street was tilted a little bit in the ninja's favor, yes. I assume that, if one were to be using them as NPCs particularly as assassins, that they would be forearmed at least with the knowledge of the party's location and have a chance to set up before hand. Alternatively they could just be lurking on the streets below, but I did not provide them bonuses to their stealth checks for being on the roof. Any character in the party who had perception, including the cohorts (Yes I do let them take leadership if they really want to, but they have to have a good reason for it. In this case Danzo is the prince of a noble house in one of the kingdoms and Ingrid is a high-ranking lieutenant in a military organization), though admittedly they have a less than 50% chance to do so without things like Alertness or skill items. But that DC would've been the same on the ground, and the prospect of just having ninja marching down the street and laying down a challenge without some semblance of subtlety seemed...silly to me. Just to recap: the ninja in that encounter did not know the capabilities of any party member (hence why they did not all target the cleric first), did not ambush them while they were sleeping, and did not have any specialized equipment such as poisons or even any arcane support.

I think, in the end, most of my misgivings about the ninja can be boiled down to vanishing trick being a swift action. As a swift, this means they get access to quickened invisibility at level 2, something the wizard and the sorcerer won't be able to do until levels 11 and 12. Sure it's just one spell effect, but [invisibility] is definitely one of the better spells to choose from that spell level. Any way you slice that you have to admit that no other class gets something quite so potent quite so early. So if that were a standard action, maybe with the caveat that they can only take vanishing trick (and while we're at it shadow clone) at 4th level or higher (the same level the casters get access to those spells), that would put that to rest for me.

I still say their level 20 ability is a little on the 'better-than-everyone-else' side but if you want to assume that players rarely (if ever) get to level 20 I suppose it's neither here-nor-there. Usually my players want to go epic. But used as an NPC as a final encounter for a group of level 16, 17, or 18 PCs; I would be hard-pressed to run that counter in a challenging manner without flat-out murdering the whole party. Food for thought, at least.

The rare chance I get to be a player in a Pathfinder game, I typically go with a rogue and I wholly agree: I would rather see the rogue elevated than the Ninja put down. Last time I was using the Thug variant and had a decently good time. When I was in college I had the chance to play in an Everquest (I know, NERD! OMG) pen and paper RPG, and while it was mostly an analogue to 3.0, there was one thing about the rogue in that game that struck me. There was a talent, or a feat, or some such that allowed a rogue to deal half of his sneak attack dice to targets that were not denied their dexterity modifier. Something like that would go a long way for rogues, I would think. My friend suggests a 'tricky bastard' pool powered by intelligence that allows them to do similar things to a Ninja and y'know...I wouldn't mind that either. Those once-a-day rogue talents could benefit from a pool like that. And if they want to make Ninja a more stealthy-assassination based variant, that's fine too, but the Rogue would have to benefit from the ability to excel in other ways.

In the end, and I think I touched on this in my Samurai review, I think it would better serve the developers to treat these classes as new beasts than saying "they are replacements for X". We would get less hung up on comparing them to what they supposedly replace and could analyze them across a wider spectrum.

[Kastafer]

I agree what CDProtocol did with the battle's set up. What his Ninjas did is what Ninjas do. They are always attacking in a place where they can have an advantage over their opponents. That's where the Ninja's strength lies... doing the unexpected. I mean, sure, everyone WILL gain an advantage attacking like that, but not so much like the Rogue and Ninja... and I'm possibly sure Wizzies and Sorcys would definitely gain an even greater advantage using the element of surprise!

But then, here's where everybody disagree with me: You have to remove the Rogue's Sneak Attack from him. He's stealing the Rogue's show ! I'd prefer the Ninja striking pressure points or vital points to his flat-footed opponents causing them to be blinded, muted and staggered for a few rounds you might add (you can add a few more status conditions) than dishing over 100 hit points damage!

[Blueluck]

Thank you very much for the thorough playtest and analysis. Also, props for the Real Ultimate Power reference.

First, I'm about as against power creep as anyone. I don't allow 3rd party material, for example, and in 3.5 I held the players to a limited set of books. I tend to be reasonably generous with rules interpretations and little house rules to make the game more fun, but as both a GM and a player, I don't want players buying new books to get new and powerful tricks that are outside the established power level of the game.

That said, the ninja doesn't look to powerful to me. It looks fairly balanced with the other non-caster and half-caster classes. That, in my opinion, means it's a little more powerful than a rogue, and I don't mind. I'd rather have a balanced sneaky-class than a rogue-equivalent.

.

I don't like your fight example as an example of the ninja's power. (I do like it as a way to watch how ninja can operate.) A class's power level should be determined in the context of an adventuring party. Putting 6 ninjas in a surprise attack against a party doesn't demonstrate their power as PCs, because I don't care if 6 something-or-others can kill a party. What I care about is whether having a ninja in the party unbalances the game.

[Kastafer]

Well... the Ninja can handle everything the Rogue can, except for the traps, but unlike the Rogue, he's kicking arses in every round. And the problem keeps rising the more higher is the level. If only his invisible bladede or clones were limited once per battle or that can't repeat the ability for 10 rounds (1 minute).

And also the Fighter or Barbarian will be like "Hey, leave some meat for us to chew too eh? Can't have everything for yourself." The Ninja just grins and crits the baddie for +100 damage.

[Charender]

Helaman wrote:

idilippy wrote:

It's a rogue alternate class though, so like it or not it needs to be balanced against the base rogue, not against all other classes. Now if the basic rogue is going to get an upgrade in Ultimate Combat to put it on the same level as the ninja, that's great, but if the ninja outclasses the rogue to the point where it is the obvious choice for a stealthy character something needs to change.

Thats more less the guts of my argument for the Ninja and samurai - they *must* be compared to the base class they come from.

Saying the Rogue/Cav is crap and needs an upgrade so we'll boost the new guys is part of obseleting the base classes they come from... and its definete power creep.

It is only a power creep if the new class in more power full than other existing base classes.

If I look at 4 classes. Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, and Ninja and rate them on an arbitrary power scale. Lets say I end up with the following(Note these are arbitrary numbers pulled out of nowhere).

Paladin - 6, 8 vs evil, 7 average
Fighter - 7 average
Ninja - 6 in straight up combat, 8 in ambushes, 7 average
Rogue - 4 in straight up combat, 6 in ambushes, 5 average

What does this tell me? Rogues have issues. Ninjas are balanced.

You have to compare Ninjas to others classes besides the Rogue. Yes, the Ninja is better than the Rogue, but is the Ninja better than the Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Wizard, Druid, etc?

[Kastafer]

Wait, don't forget the Rogue disarming traps and stuff, that adds points for the Rogue's ability to be a better scout.

[Maddigan]

I hope they upgrade the rogue rather than downgrade the ninja. For our groups the bard, inquisitor, monk, and all +15 BAB combat classes compete with the rogue for playing time. The rogue always loses.

A reduced ninja would find no playing time. It would be all bards, inquisitors, rangers, and monks. I'm finding the Inquisitor is especially bad to the bone. The Inquisitor can do so much, just one leaves your party lacking for nothing. And the Inquisitor packs a huge punch as well. I'm loving the Inquisitor class.

And both the rogue and ninja should be given good Fort saves on top of Reflex saves. It's ridiculous that Paizo gave the bard, monk, inquisitor, and ranger two good saves, but continues to hold onto the idea that a rogue and ninja should only have one good save. Totally and completely ridiculous.

Two good saves should pretty much be standard game design by this time given the number of classes with two good saves and/or save enhancing abilities. Our group will house rule in good fort saves for the ninja like we did for the rogue since Paizo game designers haven't bonked themselves on the head yet and studied classes like the Inquisitor, bard, and monk and realizing the one good save thing needs to go bye, bye, especially for marginal classes like the rogue that already have weak survivability.

The only class that one good save even fits is the arcane caster classes. They have plenty of spells and can design new ones to protect themselves from harmful effects. That should be what they rely on.

The rogue, ninja, and other fighter classes have no choice but to train reflected in multiple good saves to resist attacks. Even the fighter and barbarian should probably have good reflex saves.

I hope they re-design the rogue with two good saves. And then do the same with the ninja. The Ultimate Combat book would be a great time to give us the ninja and a better designed rogue.