My Two Cents on the Ninja...

[Azzkigar]

I’ve taken my sweet time in posting in these forums, mostly because I feel overwhelmed with ideas and the reading of other people’s feedback. As such, I feel compelled to share my initial thoughts and concerns, as I have yet to find time to perform any real play testing, but I consider this early feedback to be relevant due to the implications that these new classes would have upon my own campaigns.

I test video games for a living, but find tabletop games to be much more stimulating. Pathfinder is my favorite fantasy RPG, and I host multiple games whenever I get the chance. I’ve always been a fan of this genre, and I tend to get my information on these things straight from the source…

Here’s a picture of me with a friend of mine at an oil painting class. (I’m the squirrely looking guy on the right.)

http://www.jinxhackware.com/Content/Member/c62616d0cf7d4bad83da3.jpg

You guys at Paizo should really give this Larry fellow a chance to illustrate Pathfinder someday; he has nothing but good things to say about you. ; )

Now, I do not wish to hear arguments that Gunslingers, Ninja, or Samurai do not belong in a fantasy RPG. I have been DMing/GMing for a long time and I have created my own campaign setting where firearms and oriental characters are numerous. If you personally do not care for these themes in your game, then that is your prerogative; but don’t presume to tell me what does and does not belong in my game. (Anyone who posts that they do not like “guns” or “anime” will be promptly ignored, as it is irrelevant to the nature of this discussion.)

My thoughts on the Ninja…

Historically, Ninja utilized many tools and techniques to accomplish missions as set forth by their employers (noble or otherwise). Though disguise and social trickery were both powerful instruments of a ninja’s infiltration ability, there are already two playable classes which excel at this; the Bard and the Rogue. In my homebrew campaign, the shinobi spies and geisha seductresses of exotic Ty`kin would be rogues and bards, not the new Ninja class.

In my humble opinion, the Ninja class should not be treated in a historical manner, but rather in the style of a legendary killer who deals in quick death from the shadows. The ninja’s skills should focus more upon acrobatics, stealth, and escape than courtly intrigue. I feel that many of the abilities and ninja tricks that your team has dreamt up are simply marvelous, but I fear that the Ninja is capable of performing these extraordinary stunts while still retaining all the charm and skill of other Charismatic archetypes. In short, I believe that the ninja (as currently written) would replace the Rogue and Bard, who have long been the primary charismatic infiltrators of my campaign setting.

If the ninja is truly meant to be an alternative for the rogue class, then it does indeed make sense that they receive 8 skill points a level, just as rogues do. However, I feel that skill has long been the domain of the Rogue core class and that this should not be violated. I would rather the ninja be more combat oriented than the rogue, than able to talk his way out of any given situation. If I were writing this up as my own homebrew idea, I would remove Appraisal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Any), Perform, and Use Magic Device from the list of a ninja’s Class Skills (and possibly a few choice others). Alternatively, I would have lowered the amount of skill points that a ninja receives at each level.

I rather enjoy the monk-rogue fusion feel of this class, and the expenditure of Ki points plays in nicely with the supernatural aspect of the Ninja legend. However, I would not have chosen charisma as the ability of choice to provide a ninja’s Ki points. The size of a Monk’s Ki pool is based upon their Wisdom score, and I see no reason why this would be different for the Ninja.

Now, I understand the reasoning behind this decision, but giving a player additional incentive to make a ninja more of a charmer than a rogue or bard just feels wrong to me. The ninja presented in the artwork (another Wayne Reynolds masterpiece) depicts the iconic killer in black pajamas that we all know from movies and video games, not an historic Japanese spy who infiltrates via bluff and diplomacy. I would rather see ninja Ki abilities determined by Wisdom, and ninjas granted an AC bonus similar to the one that Monks enjoy from Wisdom bonuses to represent ninja combat training. This would further enable the Ninja class to hold its own in a fight, while still gaining Ki points for the ability. There is nothing preventing a player from choosing to make a charismatic ninja who prefers subterfuge over stunt work, but they should not receive the best of both worlds due to a Ki pool that relies upon Charisma.

On that note, I mentioned above that I adore the concept of Ninja tricks. They really do make the ninja feel different than anything else. The Acrobatic Master, Bleeding Attack, Combat Trick, Darkvision, Deadly Range, Evasion, Fast Stealth, Feather Fall, Flurry of Stars, Ghost Step, Hidden Weapons, Invisible Blade, Master Disguise, Pressure Points, See the Unseen, Shadow Clone, Shadow Split, Slow Metabolism, Slow Reactions, Sudden Disguise, Vanishing Trick, Ventriloquism, Wall Climber, and Weapon Training tricks all feel perfect for the Ninja and require very little (if any) work to make them flow with the iconic Ninja image.

Forgotten Trick, Ki Block, Ki Charge, and Undetected Sabotage strike me as odd for several reasons. Ki Block and Ki Charge don’t really feel very much like the tools of a silent assassin, and more like something a Monk would utilize. Unseen Sabotage is fine, I feel it would be more realistic in the hands of a Rogue who is more proficient with mechanical devices than martial arts. Forgotten Trick seems weird to me… but honestly I’m just sort of neutral about it. If a player wants to spend twice the Ki points on a single ninja trick for a little versatility, that’s fine by me.

Light Steps and Unbound Steps are the most marvelous thing about the ninja, so please do not remove these abilities. Just reading them makes me want to roll up a Ninja. Well done. I’m also not opposed to Ninja wielding katanas and other martial weapons; I think the katana helps make the Ninja more combat friendly than the rogue usually is. I’d like to see more ninja gear, including sais, bombs, and trick-friendly weapons. Ninja tricks would be a great way to give players incentive to utilize the less-loved weaponry of the game. Imagine expending Ki points to automatically entangle an enemy in chains, throw a sword like a javelin, stab through a wall, or draw a knife from a sheath hidden in the pommel of a weapon; but only with ninja equipment and those goof-ball weapons that nobody ever chooses.

I don’t approve of Ninja being able to utilize every Rogue Talent, especially the ones involving lock picking and social skills. Certainly, there is some overlap that is acceptable, but allowing Ninja access to all the talents of the Rogue only serves to further replace the image of the clever and beguiling thief with a ninja who can do everything (...and also wields a katana.)

I feel that the implementation of Smoke Bombs was poorly written. Smoke bombs and all of their variations should be treated as usable items, not abilities. I definitely feel that smoke bombs are an important part of the Ninja myth, but enabling a player to create them at will via the expenditure of Ki points is just silly and it creates all sorts of baffling questions. (How do they actually create them? Does a ninja have to use their bombs immediately, or can they collect them at the start of each day? Could a ninja conjure up enough smoke bombs to sell at market or pass them out to his companions? Ect.) If you want to give ninja a Ki ability based around thrown bombs, let them spend a Ki point to give them +20 on an alchemy check to craft 1dx+x of the things x times a day, but not whenever the player feels like conjuring one out of thin air.

I’m also not sure if I agree with the Assassinate advanced trick; more for campaign flavor reasons than for mechanical ones. The Assassin prestige class already covers instant assassination with its Death Attack ability. If a ninja wants access to Death Attack, they should strive to multiclass into Assassin, which has stringent requirements for the abilities it offers. If anyone can just take levels of in Ninja, there isn’t much reason to go down the dark path of the Assassin. (Although, ninja/assassin sounds pretty awesome no matter how you cut it. I would even contemplate having Ninja class levels stack with those of Assassin for determining the DC of a Death Attack, which would give players more of an incentive to choose the prestige class.)

So, to summarize my initial feelings about the ninja:

• Espionage and social skills are already covered by Bards and Rogues. The Ninja class should be more about Hollywood, and less about history. More acrobatics and martial arts, less diplomacy and bluff. I have players in my oriental campaign who are doing that just fine with charismatic rogues.
• Right now, Ninja feels like it can do everything a rogue can do, plus a bastard sword. (I don’t miss Trapfinding that much.)
• I don’t like the concept of a Charisma dependent Ki pool.
• I’d like to see Ninja Ki pools be dependent on Wisdom.
• Wisdom should also grant Ninjas an AC bonus like a Monk to represent defensive martial arts.
• Smoke bombs should be represented by usable items, not supernatural Ki abilities.
• I want to see more unique Ninja items and weaponry.
• Ninja Tricks that involve specialized weaponry. (Entangling chains, swords thrown like spears, ect.)
• Ninja should be rewarded for taking the Assassin prestige class, but not have their own assassination ability.
• Ninja tricks are an awesome concept and most of them feel inspired.
• Light Steps and Unbound Steps are the best thing about Ninja, whoever came up with those did a good job.

These are just my opinions, and I love to hear new ideas. Pathfinder is a wonderful game and even if Ultimate Combat ships with the Ninja class as-is (not likely) I’d still buy it. Most of the things I take issue with can be fixed by a few simple house rules; I’d just like to see Ultimate Combat ship with as little need for those as possible.

If I find time to play test anything I’ll post the results here; and keep a look out for my two cents about the Gunslinger coming soon.

Kindest regards,

-Your friend Azzkigar

[Azzkigar]

I just thought of an interesting question that popped into my head while designing a Ninja mission scenario for my players to test out...

Can a Ninja activate Unbound Steps while still airborne from making an acrobatics check to jump on the previous round?

Imagine this scenario:

The Ninja needs to leap across a wide chasm to reach an objective on the far side.

So, he uses up a ki point to activate Acrobatic Master and leaps at least 20 feet over the expanse. Seeing that he has undershot his target and is about to fall to his doom, could he then expend one of his uses of Unbound Steps to perform a sort of "double jump" and move twice his speed through the air to the other side of the gorge?

Would this work, or have I been playing too much Shinobi III?

[Midnightoker]

Azzkigar wrote:

I just thought of an interesting question that popped into my head while designing a Ninja mission scenario for my players to test out...

Can a Ninja activate Unbound Steps while still airborne from making an acrobatics check to jump on the previous round?

Imagine this scenario:

The Ninja needs to leap across a wide chasm to reach an objective on the far side.

So, he uses up a ki point to activate Acrobatic Master and leaps at least 20 feet over the expanse. Seeing that he has undershot his target and is about to fall to his doom, could he then expend one of his uses of Unbound Steps to perform a sort of "double jump" and move twice his speed through the air to the other side of the gorge?

Would this work, or have I been playing too much Shinobi III?

While cool imagery it is not legal because you fall immediately (it specifically says that under falling)

[Azzkigar]

Fair enough I suppose. :)

Now, suppose that the drop was at least 500 feet, or that the Ninja was under the effects of a Feather Fall spell (which is both an immediate action, and a Ninja Trick.) I guess my real question is; can a Ninja activate Unbound Steps while in mid-air so long as he ends his movement on solid ground?

I ask because I'm designing a mission where the players have to sneak into an impregnable fortress high on a mountain.

Another idea I had was for someone to fire an arrow over the chasm that is trailing a long but narrow thread; then use Light Steps to run across the thread.

Thoughts?

[Elghinn Lightbringer]

Azzkigar wrote:

So, to summarize my initial feelings about the ninja:

• Espionage and social skills are already covered by Bards and Rogues. The Ninja class should be more about Hollywood, and less about history. More acrobatics and martial arts, less diplomacy and bluff. I have players in my oriental campaign who are doing that just fine with charismatic rogues.
• Right now, Ninja feels like it can do everything a rogue can do, plus a bastard sword. (I don’t miss Trapfinding that much.)
• I don’t like the concept of a Charisma dependent Ki pool.
• I’d like to see Ninja Ki pools be dependent on Wisdom.
• Wisdom should also grant Ninjas an AC bonus like a Monk to represent defensive martial arts.
• Smoke bombs should be represented by usable items, not supernatural Ki abilities.
• I want to see more unique Ninja items and weaponry.
• Ninja Tricks that involve specialized weaponry. (Entangling chains, swords thrown like spears, ect.)
• Ninja should be rewarded for taking the Assassin prestige class, but not have their own assassination ability.
• Ninja tricks are an awesome concept and most of them feel inspired.
• Light Steps and Unbound Steps are the best thing about Ninja, whoever came up with those did a good job.

These are just my opinions, and I love to hear new ideas.

Overall, I agree with you. To me the ninja needs to be a quiet, deadly assassin, trained in a multitude of weapons, fast, and trained in martial arts (I think the samurai should have some martial arts too personally). The ninja needs to be less rogue and more ninja, and Ki pool should be Wisdom based.

I did a Pathfinderized version of the ninja, based on the old 3.5 v Some ideas to add in as tricks could be:

Martial Arts Training: This trick allows a ninja to learn the techniques of the ancient martial arts, and thus gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Improved Martial Arts Training: This trick allows a ninja to deal damage with his unarmed strikes as a monk of half his ninja level. If he has levels in monk they stack with half his levels in ninja for determining his unarmed damage and BAB when executing a flurry of blows. The ninja must have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to select this secret.

Advanced Martial Training: This trick allows a ninja to deal damage with his unarmed strikes as a monk of equal level. If he has levels in monk they stack with all his class levels in ninja for the purpose of determining his unarmed damage, and BAB when executing a flurry of blows. Further more he may spend ki point from either his monk or his ninja ki pool to activate ki powers that are related to his unarmed strikes and flurry of blows. The ninja must have selected the Improved Martial Arts Training trick to select this secret.

Something like these, I think would be importatnt. Ninjas should have some form of unarmed fighting ability, and these would allow players to select a more "Bruce Lee" type ninja.

Here's a few others:

Water Skimmer (Ex): this trick allows a ninja to run across water at his full movement rate. He must begin and end his movement on solid ground. If he cannot complete his movement or is unable to reach solid ground, he can make an Acrobatics check (DC 20 + the distance to solid ground) to jump and reach solid ground. If he fails, he immediately falls into the water. To run across any water surface, the ninja must be wearing no armor and carrying no more than a light load.

Feign Death (Ex): A ninja with this trick has mastered the art of controlling his body to the point where he can appear to be dead. Spells or effects that can normally detect life or thought are incapable of determining whether or not the ninja is alive. To use this ability the ninja must spend 1 ki point and concentrate for 1 full round, causing his mind and body enter into a catatonic state. While in this state, the ninja is completely aware of his surroundings. If he has chosen to enter this trance with his eyes open he can see everything that is going on, though his pupils do not dilate if exposed to light. If someone closes his eyelids he is considered blind, but otherwise can hear, smell, and feel as normal. The ninja can remain in this state for a number of days equal to his ninja class level + his constitution modifier. Time passes more slowly for the ninja while he is in this state. For the purposes of determining starvation and thirst, one day for a ninja in this state is equal to 1 week. To anyone observing the ninja's body he appears to be lifeless and dead. His heart beat has slowed to the point where it is all but nonexistent and his skin is cool to the touch. The ninja can choose to end this effect at any time as a free action.

These are just ideas and can be changed as the PF developers see fit. I do think, however, the ninja should have some type of "death attack" ability like the assassin, perhaps spread out through the levels. I know assassin is a great PrC, and I don't want it to be overshadowed by an alternate class, but the killer ninja archetype requires some form of class feature or ninja trick.

Perhaps adopting the Assassin class features into the ninja like this:

Ninja
6th level gain death attack, as the assassin feature.
10th level gain true death, as the assassin feature.
14th level gain quiet death, as the assassin feature.
18th level gain swift death, as the assassin feature.

I would leave angel of death in purvue of the Assassin only. He is the archetype assassin PrC after all. This would still allow the Assassin to be the king of killers. Noone would dip into ninja to gain any of the death attack abilities since they'd be too spread out.

[Arnwolf]

Me and you are on the same page when it comes to Ninja's.

[Elghinn Lightbringer]

Another thing too, I think there should be some restriction as to the rogue talents" should be allowed to chose if they take that trick, especially in keeping the ninja flavor. Much like Azzkigar mentioned in his OP.

I have ALWAYS LOVED the ninja, and want to see the great Pathfinder designers establish it in their repetoire (as well as the samurai, which I think needs some changes too). The oriental flavor has always been a part of my campaign world.

[Elghinn Lightbringer]

One thing that would help with the ninja/rogue dicotomy, and I read this in another thread, is to allow the rogue to use the ninjas tricks, and vice versa. Of course, only a ninja could use those with Ki requirements, unless the rogue has levels in monk or ninja. That would allow rogues to gain some good new talents, and ninja to access rogue talents without them having to use a telent to do so.

[Pulpo_Rabido]

I've gotta agree with the wisdom dependent ki pool. Perception and Sense Motive just seem more in line with the whole mystic assassin bit. I would like to quote the core here and say, "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." Those are all things I think of when I think Ninja, the descriptors for charisma is "personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance." One of those just rings ninja and the other doesn't. At least the way I understand Ninja lore, fantasy or otherwise. I understand that with ninja being an alternate class option for the rogue there's a strong desire to keep some of the required stats the same, but 'Ninja' is just such an iconic class to create and be making decisions that are based on trying to keep it close to a rogue.

On the same note it seems odd to me that grit is based on based on wisdom. Grit is something that can be replenished by being a showboat, by attempting things that aren't likely to succeed and getting criticals. that and the whole boastful nature just seemed more like a Cha thing, but to be honest this one doesn't bother me near as much as the the ki pool based in charisma.

[Elghinn Lightbringer]

Pulpo_Rabido wrote:

I've gotta agree with the wisdom dependent ki pool. Perception and Sense Motive just seem more in line with the whole mystic assassin bit. I would like to quote the core here and say, "Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition." Those are all things I think of when I think Ninja, the descriptors for charisma is "personality, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and appearance." One of those just rings ninja and the other doesn't. At least the way I understand Ninja lore, fantasy or otherwise. I understand that with ninja being an alternate class option for the rogue there's a strong desire to keep some of the required stats the same, but 'Ninja' is just such an iconic class to create and be making decisions that are based on trying to keep it close to a rogue.

On the same note it seems odd to me that grit is based on based on wisdom. Grit is something that can be replenished by being a showboat, by attempting things that aren't likely to succeed and getting criticals. that and the whole boastful nature just seemed more like a Cha thing, but to be honest this one doesn't bother me near as much as the the ki pool based in charisma.

+10

[Machaeus]

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

Something like these, I think would be important. Ninjas should have some form of unarmed fighting ability, and these would allow players to select a more "Bruce Lee" type ninja.

Or a "Rock Lee" type ninja. /troll

In all seriousness, I'd like to see most of these ideas implemented - they all look pretty good. We should perhaps playtest these ideas and then tell Paizo how well they worked, if they did do well - that might be better feedback than just telling them the ideas.

[kaisc006]

Elghinn Lightbringer wrote:

I did a Pathfinderized version of the ninja, based on the old 3.5 v Some ideas to add in as tricks could be:

Martial Arts Training: This trick allows a ninja to learn the techniques of the ancient martial arts, and thus gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.

Improved Martial Arts Training: This trick allows a ninja to deal damage with his unarmed strikes as a monk of half his...

Not sure if I agree with you on everything but the Feign Death and Water Skimmer are neat ninja tricks with cool flavor that will hopefully get looked at.

IMHO I think the assassinate and charisma based ki are fine as is. All that argument though is done well in this thread Ki based off charisma? Oh Please!