I’ve taken my sweet time in posting in these forums, mostly because I feel overwhelmed with ideas and the reading of other people’s feedback. As such, I feel compelled to share my initial thoughts and concerns, as I have yet to find time to perform any real play testing, but I consider this early feedback to be relevant due to the implications that these new classes would have upon my own campaigns.
I test video games for a living, but find tabletop games to be much more stimulating. Pathfinder is my favorite fantasy RPG, and I host multiple games whenever I get the chance. I’ve always been a fan of this genre, and I tend to get my information on these things straight from the source…
Here’s a picture of me with a friend of mine at an oil painting class. (I’m the squirrely looking guy on the right.)
http://www.jinxhackware.com/Content/Member/c62616d0cf7d4bad83da3.jpg
You guys at Paizo should really give this Larry fellow a chance to illustrate Pathfinder someday; he has nothing but good things to say about you. ; )
Now, I do not wish to hear arguments that Gunslingers, Ninja, or Samurai do not belong in a fantasy RPG. I have been DMing/GMing for a long time and I have created my own campaign setting where firearms and oriental characters are numerous. If you personally do not care for these themes in your game, then that is your prerogative; but don’t presume to tell me what does and does not belong in my game. (Anyone who posts that they do not like “guns” or “anime” will be promptly ignored, as it is irrelevant to the nature of this discussion.)
My thoughts on the Ninja…
Historically, Ninja utilized many tools and techniques to accomplish missions as set forth by their employers (noble or otherwise). Though disguise and social trickery were both powerful instruments of a ninja’s infiltration ability, there are already two playable classes which excel at this; the Bard and the Rogue. In my homebrew campaign, the shinobi spies and geisha seductresses of exotic Ty`kin would be rogues and bards, not the new Ninja class.
In my humble opinion, the Ninja class should not be treated in a historical manner, but rather in the style of a legendary killer who deals in quick death from the shadows. The ninja’s skills should focus more upon acrobatics, stealth, and escape than courtly intrigue. I feel that many of the abilities and ninja tricks that your team has dreamt up are simply marvelous, but I fear that the Ninja is capable of performing these extraordinary stunts while still retaining all the charm and skill of other Charismatic archetypes. In short, I believe that the ninja (as currently written) would replace the Rogue and Bard, who have long been the primary charismatic infiltrators of my campaign setting.
If the ninja is truly meant to be an alternative for the rogue class, then it does indeed make sense that they receive 8 skill points a level, just as rogues do. However, I feel that skill has long been the domain of the Rogue core class and that this should not be violated. I would rather the ninja be more combat oriented than the rogue, than able to talk his way out of any given situation. If I were writing this up as my own homebrew idea, I would remove Appraisal, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Any), Perform, and Use Magic Device from the list of a ninja’s Class Skills (and possibly a few choice others). Alternatively, I would have lowered the amount of skill points that a ninja receives at each level.
I rather enjoy the monk-rogue fusion feel of this class, and the expenditure of Ki points plays in nicely with the supernatural aspect of the Ninja legend. However, I would not have chosen charisma as the ability of choice to provide a ninja’s Ki points. The size of a Monk’s Ki pool is based upon their Wisdom score, and I see no reason why this would be different for the Ninja.
Now, I understand the reasoning behind this decision, but giving a player additional incentive to make a ninja more of a charmer than a rogue or bard just feels wrong to me. The ninja presented in the artwork (another Wayne Reynolds masterpiece) depicts the iconic killer in black pajamas that we all know from movies and video games, not an historic Japanese spy who infiltrates via bluff and diplomacy. I would rather see ninja Ki abilities determined by Wisdom, and ninjas granted an AC bonus similar to the one that Monks enjoy from Wisdom bonuses to represent ninja combat training. This would further enable the Ninja class to hold its own in a fight, while still gaining Ki points for the ability. There is nothing preventing a player from choosing to make a charismatic ninja who prefers subterfuge over stunt work, but they should not receive the best of both worlds due to a Ki pool that relies upon Charisma.
On that note, I mentioned above that I adore the concept of Ninja tricks. They really do make the ninja feel different than anything else. The Acrobatic Master, Bleeding Attack, Combat Trick, Darkvision, Deadly Range, Evasion, Fast Stealth, Feather Fall, Flurry of Stars, Ghost Step, Hidden Weapons, Invisible Blade, Master Disguise, Pressure Points, See the Unseen, Shadow Clone, Shadow Split, Slow Metabolism, Slow Reactions, Sudden Disguise, Vanishing Trick, Ventriloquism, Wall Climber, and Weapon Training tricks all feel perfect for the Ninja and require very little (if any) work to make them flow with the iconic Ninja image.
Forgotten Trick, Ki Block, Ki Charge, and Undetected Sabotage strike me as odd for several reasons. Ki Block and Ki Charge don’t really feel very much like the tools of a silent assassin, and more like something a Monk would utilize. Unseen Sabotage is fine, I feel it would be more realistic in the hands of a Rogue who is more proficient with mechanical devices than martial arts. Forgotten Trick seems weird to me… but honestly I’m just sort of neutral about it. If a player wants to spend twice the Ki points on a single ninja trick for a little versatility, that’s fine by me.
Light Steps and Unbound Steps are the most marvelous thing about the ninja, so please do not remove these abilities. Just reading them makes me want to roll up a Ninja. Well done. I’m also not opposed to Ninja wielding katanas and other martial weapons; I think the katana helps make the Ninja more combat friendly than the rogue usually is. I’d like to see more ninja gear, including sais, bombs, and trick-friendly weapons. Ninja tricks would be a great way to give players incentive to utilize the less-loved weaponry of the game. Imagine expending Ki points to automatically entangle an enemy in chains, throw a sword like a javelin, stab through a wall, or draw a knife from a sheath hidden in the pommel of a weapon; but only with ninja equipment and those goof-ball weapons that nobody ever chooses.
I don’t approve of Ninja being able to utilize every Rogue Talent, especially the ones involving lock picking and social skills. Certainly, there is some overlap that is acceptable, but allowing Ninja access to all the talents of the Rogue only serves to further replace the image of the clever and beguiling thief with a ninja who can do everything (...and also wields a katana.)
I feel that the implementation of Smoke Bombs was poorly written. Smoke bombs and all of their variations should be treated as usable items, not abilities. I definitely feel that smoke bombs are an important part of the Ninja myth, but enabling a player to create them at will via the expenditure of Ki points is just silly and it creates all sorts of baffling questions. (How do they actually create them? Does a ninja have to use their bombs immediately, or can they collect them at the start of each day? Could a ninja conjure up enough smoke bombs to sell at market or pass them out to his companions? Ect.) If you want to give ninja a Ki ability based around thrown bombs, let them spend a Ki point to give them +20 on an alchemy check to craft 1dx+x of the things x times a day, but not whenever the player feels like conjuring one out of thin air.
I’m also not sure if I agree with the Assassinate advanced trick; more for campaign flavor reasons than for mechanical ones. The Assassin prestige class already covers instant assassination with its Death Attack ability. If a ninja wants access to Death Attack, they should strive to multiclass into Assassin, which has stringent requirements for the abilities it offers. If anyone can just take levels of in Ninja, there isn’t much reason to go down the dark path of the Assassin. (Although, ninja/assassin sounds pretty awesome no matter how you cut it. I would even contemplate having Ninja class levels stack with those of Assassin for determining the DC of a Death Attack, which would give players more of an incentive to choose the prestige class.)
So, to summarize my initial feelings about the ninja:
• Espionage and social skills are already covered by Bards and Rogues. The Ninja class should be more about Hollywood, and less about history. More acrobatics and martial arts, less diplomacy and bluff. I have players in my oriental campaign who are doing that just fine with charismatic rogues.
• Right now, Ninja feels like it can do everything a rogue can do, plus a bastard sword. (I don’t miss Trapfinding that much.)
• I don’t like the concept of a Charisma dependent Ki pool.
• I’d like to see Ninja Ki pools be dependent on Wisdom.
• Wisdom should also grant Ninjas an AC bonus like a Monk to represent defensive martial arts.
• Smoke bombs should be represented by usable items, not supernatural Ki abilities.
• I want to see more unique Ninja items and weaponry.
• Ninja Tricks that involve specialized weaponry. (Entangling chains, swords thrown like spears, ect.)
• Ninja should be rewarded for taking the Assassin prestige class, but not have their own assassination ability.
• Ninja tricks are an awesome concept and most of them feel inspired.
• Light Steps and Unbound Steps are the best thing about Ninja, whoever came up with those did a good job.
These are just my opinions, and I love to hear new ideas. Pathfinder is a wonderful game and even if Ultimate Combat ships with the Ninja class as-is (not likely) I’d still buy it. Most of the things I take issue with can be fixed by a few simple house rules; I’d just like to see Ultimate Combat ship with as little need for those as possible.
If I find time to play test anything I’ll post the results here; and keep a look out for my two cents about the Gunslinger coming soon.
Kindest regards,
-Your friend Azzkigar
