Creative Director
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I'm definitely in the "pro gun" camp for Pathfinder, however one thing that I wonder about is how Paizo is going to handle the issue of barrels of black powder?
Every time I've seen guns in games, very quickly players start contemplating what they can do with casks of gunpowder. "Why don't we just rig the entrance to the cave with casks of gunpowder and then just blow up the lair?" or "why not just rig a trap and lure the dragon into the room filled with gunpowder?" etc.
Basically, I can see a wealth of thought coming from players that is just a scaled down version of "Why don't we just nuke the site from orbit?"
That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive. Something that can do the equivalent of, say, a fireball, needs to scale up so that it costs the same as a one-shot fireball magic item (such as a bead from a necklace of fireballs). It also needs to scale right so that a small dose that does, say, 1d6 points of damage on its own, should cost about the same as alchemist fire.
The game's economy, which is based on magic item power, often doesn't let realism be in the front seat.
In any event, the Inner Sea World Guide will have black powder you can buy in large enough quantities to blow stuff up. It won't be cheep, though. (Free Preview: A keg of black powder that can do 5d6 points of damage in a 20 foot burst costs 1,000 gp, which is 250 gp more than a one-shot fireball—we increased the cost by 250 to account for the fact that you can do more with a keg of black powder than you can with a fireball bead.)
well, to be honest you could just explain that it might be cheaper to bribe the local red dragon to fly in and burn it for you instead? Seriously 10gp for 1 charge worth of black powder. That is like an ounce. Barrels can weight hundreds of pounds. If a party really going to try to find out how much damage a 32,000 gold barrel of powder is going to do to that castle wall? Heck for the cost of those 10 barrels you were going to use to blow it up, you could just buy the castle.
I'm definitely in the "pro gun" camp for Pathfinder, however one thing that I wonder about is how Paizo is going to handle the issue of barrels of black powder?
Every time I've seen guns in games, very quickly players start contemplating what they can do with casks of gunpowder. "Why don't we just rig the entrance to the cave with casks of gunpowder and then just blow up the lair?" or "why not just rig a trap and lure the dragon into the room filled with gunpowder?" etc.
A trap would take a day minimum. And look at the cost for traps: bad idea.
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Creative Director
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That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive. Something that can do the equivalent of, say, a fireball, needs to scale up so that it costs the same as a one-shot fireball magic item (such as a bead from a necklace of fireballs). It also needs to scale right so that a small dose that does, say, 1d6 points of damage on its own, should cost about the same as alchemist fire.
The game's economy, which is based on magic item power, often doesn't let realism be in the front seat.
That sounds like a good solution. Actually, it's kind of what I think the economics behind guns ought to be for the generic RPG line. Make the guns cost as much as any other weapon, but just make the black powder be the one element that is more expensive.
That would also solve the issue of having bands of goblins armed with pistols and muskets. Once they get chopped up by the party and the PCs are picking through the remains, the guns themselves will not be worth much... just the cost of a crossbow or so, but the blackpowder will be worth something. However, the GM can easily just have the goblins only having a handful of charges of blackpowder, enough for a combat or two. That way the economics of the game don't get thrown for a loop with super expensive firearms.
That's certainly an interesting idea... but by making guns more expensive, we artificially make them more rare than crossbows in the game. That's by design. If and when we (or another company) makes a PFRPG game setting that implies more common firearms, that's the point at which the cost can come down.
That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive.
The problem with this is that it means the gunslinger class needs to run a huge gunpowder tab at his local store. Given that, at least as of the playtest PDF, the poor bastard has damage issues already, this cripples the class.
You might want to think of an option I've seen some genius post.
Give gunslingers a class ability "efficient loading", which lets them use 1/10 or so of the usual amount of gunpowder when using his gun. I think 2gp per shot is a lot less brutal (though still brutal).
That genius also thinks that gunslingers should at least get rapid reload for free at 1st level. Maybe even let them treat pistols and rifles as light and heavy crossbows, respectively, in regards to reloading (okay maybe not quite, since maybe loading and shooting a pistol as often as an archer shoots his bow might be over the top).
Okay, I fess up: It was me who posted that! But I keep being told by all sorts of people that I'm a genius, so it's not completely sneaky!
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Creative Director
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That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive.The problem with this is that it means the gunslinger class needs to run a huge gunpowder tab at his local store. Given that, at least as of the playtest PDF, the poor bastard has damage issues already, this cripples the class.
You might want to think of an option I've seen some genius post.
Give gunslingers a class ability "efficient loading", which lets them use 1/10 or so of the usual amount of gunpowder when using his gun. I think 2gp per shot is a lot less brutal (though still brutal).
That genius also thinks that gunslingers should at least get rapid reload for free at 1st level. Maybe even let them treat pistols and rifles as light and heavy crossbows, respectively, in regards to reloading (okay maybe not quite, since maybe loading and shooting a pistol as often as an archer shoots his bow might be over the top).
Okay, I fess up: It was me who posted that! But I keep being told by all sorts of people that I'm a genius, so it's not completely sneaky!
That's actually more of a problem with the gunslinger class than gunpowder. My current favorite solution is to give gunslingers a class ability that functions similarly to how we allow alchemists a more or less infinite supply of bombs—let gunslingers make or recycle their ammo to a certain extent each day. The "efficient loading" solution is a good start. We still want gunslingers to have to pay for their ammo, like any other ranged class, but it's important that they aren't TOO crippled by the cost (like the poor wizard is when it comes to adding spells or using most of his bonus feats) and to make it possible for the gunslinger who's on an extended adventure in the wilds to be able to keep doing what his class was built to do.
That's certainly an interesting idea... but by making guns more expensive, we artificially make them more rare than crossbows in the game. That's by design. If and when we (or another company) makes a PFRPG game setting that implies more common firearms, that's the point at which the cost can come down.
I dont suppose you could reconsider this design choice? The cost of these weapons is really causing them not to play nice with the rest of the game. Crafting them makes no sense (crafting time is based on the price of the weapon in silver...it takes basically forever to make a gun), it arbitrarily punishes players or npcs that decide to use them, and it means that specifically the gunslinger has to jump through hoops (which it is currently getting tangled on) just to find a way to make them work. I know this has been an element of golarian with alkenstar's gun racket, but please reconsider the price of guns for the RPG line.
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Creative Director
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I dont suppose you could reconsider this design choice? The cost of these weapons is really causing them not to play nice with the rest of the game. Crafting them makes no sense (crafting time is based on the price of the weapon in silver...it takes basically forever to make a gun), it arbitrarily punishes players or npcs that decide to use them, and it means that specifically the gunslinger has to jump through hoops (which it is currently getting tangled on) just to find a way to make them work. I know this has been an element of golarian with alkenstar's gun racket, but please reconsider the price of guns for the RPG line.
That's certainly an interesting idea... but by making guns more expensive, we artificially make them more rare than crossbows in the game. That's by design. If and when we (or another company) makes a PFRPG game setting that implies more common firearms, that's the point at which the cost can come down.
Nope; the prices for guns and black powder are pretty locked in. We could, of course, change them for Ultimate Combat, I guess, but they're already coming back over the ocean from the printer in the Inner Sea World Guide. Having it take a really long time to make a gun is actually part of Golarion's flavor, to be honest—again, part of the goal to have guns be relatively rare in Golarion. What we COULD do in Ultimate Combat, of course, is include a sidebar or something that talks about adjusting gun and black powder prices in specific game worlds to model availability. That could actually be pretty cool, and would help empower GMs who wish to adjust the commonality of guns in their game—even if their game's set in Golarion—without making what we've already established in the Inner Sea World Guide wrong. This is, of course, ALREADY the assumption—GMs can and SHOULD change the rules as needed to make the game they and their players want to play. But putting it in print and effectively giving GMs "permission" to change prices to match how available they want guns to be in their world is still a good idea.
The baseline cost, though, is locked in.
Nope; the prices for guns and black powder are pretty locked in. We could, of course, change them for Ultimate Combat, I guess, but they're already coming back over the ocean from the printer in the Inner Sea World Guide. Having it take a really long time to make a gun is actually part of Golarion's flavor, to be honest—again, part of the goal to have guns be relatively rare in Golarion. What we COULD do in Ultimate Combat, of course, is include a sidebar or something that talks about adjusting gun and black powder prices in specific game worlds to model availability. That could actually be pretty cool, and would help empower GMs who wish to adjust the commonality of guns in their game—even if their game's set in Golarion—without making what we've already established in the Inner Sea World Guide wrong. This is, of course, ALREADY the assumption—GMs can and SHOULD change the rules as needed to make the game they and their players want to play. But putting it in print and effectively giving GMs "permission" to change prices to match how available they want guns to be in their world is still a good idea.
The baseline cost, though, is locked in.
I understand that it is part of the flavor of golarion, but I am talking exclusively about the rpg line, which last I checked was supposed to be as setting neutral as possible. And guns being ludicrously expensive really flies in the face of that particular pledge. It also creates huge problems for the mechanics and for any class or character that uses guns. Even if you build ways around it for the gunslinger, you make guns a one class weapon. Or for that matter, a no class weapon. Right now a gunslinger is more effective using a bow and arrow, or a melee weapon then he is using guns largely because of the rules for firearms (including the price).
That side bar would be near and dear to my heart to be honest. I don't mind having an "equipment price range" instead of a fixed cost, and I fully agree that the current prices simply do not jive with anything else in the game economically.
At the current costs there is next to no reason to honestly use guns at all: With the price you pay in feats, damage, and actual cost of each shot they are a non-starter to the point of "why insult us by putting it in there?"
I honestly do not believe that is where the guns were heading, but currently the prices simply do not jive with anyone developing the gun beyond a single piece curiosity.
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Creative Director
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I understand that it is part of the flavor of golarion, but I am talking exclusively about the rpg line, which last I checked was supposed to be as setting neutral as possible. And guns being ludicrously expensive really flies in the face of that particular pledge. It also creates huge problems for the mechanics and for any class or character that uses guns. Even if you build ways around it for the gunslinger, you make guns a one class weapon. Or for that matter, a no class weapon. Right now a gunslinger is more effective using a bow and arrow, or a melee weapon then he is using guns largely because of the rules for firearms (including the price).
It IS supposed to be setting neutral... but it's also supposed to be the baseline rules for Golarion. The rulebook line and the campaign setting line are doing VERY well at directly supporting each other. It's not good for either line for the baseline assumptions to clash, and we're trying to minimize such clashes as much as we can.
Again, by building in a class ability to the gunslinger that makes it a lot less expensive for that class to use guns, we have our cake and eat it too. This ALSO helps to skew those who use guns toward taking gunslinger levels, so that the majority of gun-wielding characters ARE gunslingers, rather than other classes who, effectively, "buy" their way into that scene.
Wouldn't allowing the gunslinger to make cheep or even free ammo and guns solve the problem in the same way as simply reducing the overall costs? Doing so certainly preserves the relationship between the setting and the rules books, which, again, is very important.
The RPG line is not ONLY Golarion... but Golarion ONLY uses the RPG line. The books need to match as much as possible.
I'm definitely in the "pro gun" camp for Pathfinder, however one thing that I wonder about is how Paizo is going to handle the issue of barrels of black powder?
Every time I've seen guns in games, very quickly players start contemplating what they can do with casks of gunpowder. "Why don't we just rig the entrance to the cave with casks of gunpowder and then just blow up the lair?" or "why not just rig a trap and lure the dragon into the room filled with gunpowder?" etc.
Basically, I can see a wealth of thought coming from players that is just a scaled down version of "Why don't we just nuke the site from orbit?"
My first thought was: Aren't your players already doing that with spells? All of those effects can be more cheaply replicated with the right scroll.
Giving the Gunslinger the ability to make their own ammo seems to be the best solution to make them playable. They should be treated like alchemist who guard their knowledge.
One thing to remember gunpowder is inherintly unstable and fickle. Water does terrible things to gun powder much less someone running around with container of it who is hit by a fireball spell. Early guns also had a high misfire and explosion problem.
That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive. Something that can do the equivalent of, say, a fireball, needs to scale up so that it costs the same as a one-shot fireball magic item (such as a bead from a necklace of fireballs). It also needs to scale right so that a small dose that does, say, 1d6 points of damage on its own, should cost about the same as alchemist fire.
The game's economy, which is based on magic item power, often doesn't let realism be in the front seat.
In any event, the Inner Sea World Guide will have black powder you can buy in large enough quantities to blow stuff up. It won't be cheep, though. (Free Preview: A keg of black powder that can do 5d6 points of damage in a 20 foot burst costs 1,000 gp, which is 250 gp more than a one-shot fireball—we increased the cost by 250 to account for the fact that you can do more with a keg of black powder than you can with a fireball bead.)
Are you guys going to give a plausible in-game explanation for why powder is so darned expensive? The ingredients are neither complex nor hard to obtain. The formula is far too simple to be kept a secret for very long.
I would explain the high price of explosives by stating that black powder and gun cotton can only be prepared in a null magic zone or anti magic shell. That means that Alkenstar gets relatively cheap powder, and most of the rest of the world does not. High level wizards could create anti magic shell powder mills, but this is not going to become a major industry. Without a strong demand for the stuff, and given the added trouble and expense of preparing it, black powder and weapons based on it remain magician's curiosities or toys of the rich. A powerful wizard has access to better offensive options, anyway. I'm sure there are some money minded types who create batches of the stuff for sale at jacked up prices. That would reflect the very high prices that we see in the books.
I understand that it is part of the flavor of golarion, but I am talking exclusively about the rpg line, which last I checked was supposed to be as setting neutral as possible. And guns being ludicrously expensive really flies in the face of that particular pledge. It also creates huge problems for the mechanics and for any class or character that uses guns. Even if you build ways around it for the gunslinger, you make guns a one class weapon. Or for that matter, a no class weapon. Right now a gunslinger is more effective using a bow and arrow, or a melee weapon then he is using guns largely because of the rules for firearms (including the price).It IS supposed to be setting neutral... but it's also supposed to be the baseline rules for Golarion. The rulebook line and the campaign setting line are doing VERY well at directly supporting each other. It's not good for either line for the baseline assumptions to clash, and we're trying to minimize such clashes as much as we can.
Again, by building in a class ability to the gunslinger that makes it a lot less expensive for that class to use guns, we have our cake and eat it too. This ALSO helps to skew those who use guns toward taking gunslinger levels, so that the majority of gun-wielding characters ARE gunslingers, rather than other classes who, effectively, "buy" their way into that scene.
Wouldn't allowing the gunslinger to make cheep or even free ammo and guns solve the problem in the same way as simply reducing the overall costs? Doing so certainly preserves the relationship between the setting and the rules books, which, again, is very important.
The RPG line is not ONLY Golarion... but Golarion ONLY uses the RPG line. The books need to match as much as possible.
It doesnt solve the problem, because there is also the issue of additional weapons. As the gunslinger progresses he is certainly going to want magic guns, and the mechanics of firearms are going to make him want more then one. Not all games allow the time needed to enchant existing weapons and instead rely on adding new weapons as treasure or the purchase of said new weapons. The gunslinger or other gun using character's new weapons are arbitrarily more expensive then any other type of weapon for no appreciable increase in value (effectiveness of the weapon). In fact they are less effective then their cheaper and more abundant counterparts.
It is very easy for a golarion source book or the inner sea guide to say In Golarion guns cost more, then it is for the RPG to make up for the fact that these guns cost arbitrarily more for reasons that only make sense in one specific setting.
It also doesnt make sense for guns to be gunslinger exclusive. Why on earth should characters have to 'buy in' to a weapon beyond profficiency? Do you need a specific class to use a longbow? Or even something exotic like an Orc Double axe? No you need profficiency. Why should guns require a specific class to make them work? Trying to make this work with golarion is making it not work along side the rest of the rpg rules.
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Creative Director
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Are you guys going to give a plausible in-game explanation for why powder is so darned expensive? The ingredients are neither complex nor hard to obtain. The formula is far too simple to be kept a secret for very long.
I would explain the high price of explosives by stating that black powder and gun cotton can only be prepared in a null magic zone or anti magic shell. That means that Alkenstar gets relatively cheap powder, and most of the rest of the world does not. High level wizards could create anti magic shell powder mills, but this is not going to become a major industry. Without a strong demand for the stuff, and given the added trouble and expense of preparing it, black powder and weapons based on it remain magician's curiosities or toys of the rich. A powerful wizard has access to better offensive options, anyway. I'm sure there are some money minded types who create batches of the stuff for sale at jacked up prices. That would reflect the very high prices that we see in the books.
In Ultimate Combat? No.
In Golarion? Because the secrets to making gunpowder are closely guarded and controlled, allowing those who CAN make it the ability to set the price.
ALSO: The components to make gunpowder may be relatively cheap... but the skill to make those components into gunpowder that'll actually serve to cause bullets to shoot out of firearms is not. To bring a favorite TV show in to the discussion—on an episode of "Mythbusters" where they were trying to duplicate Captain Kirk's home-made cannon he used to kill the gorn, they started by trying to make their own gunpowder. It wasn't easy. Took them a LOT of tries to get it right (and remember, these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing), and even then their best results were actually not good enough to really produce gunpowder that could really work all that well.
It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that makes things expensive.
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Creative Director
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It doesnt solve the problem, because there is also the issue of additional weapons. As the gunslinger progresses he is certainly going to want magic guns...
A gunslinger shouldn't have better access to magic weapons for his build than any other class, though. If a fighter who uses a longsword wants a magic longsword... he buys one, has one made, or finds one. The gunslinger who wants a magic gun should have to do the same.
I'm not concerned at ALL with the costs for magic guns or magic bullets. It's really only the baseline cost that causes a problem for the gunslinger class, so involving magic guns in the conversation is just clutter.
It doesnt solve the problem, because there is also the issue of additional weapons. As the gunslinger progresses he is certainly going to want magic guns...A gunslinger shouldn't have better access to magic weapons for his build than any other class, though. If a fighter who uses a longsword wants a magic longsword... he buys one, has one made, or finds one. The gunslinger who wants a magic gun should have to do the same.
I'm not concerned at ALL with the costs for magic guns or magic bullets. It's really only the baseline cost that causes a problem for the gunslinger class, so involving magic guns in the conversation is just clutter.
He doesnt have better access, he has worse. Because the gun itself half or 3/4ths as much a magic weapons. So assuming a player has relative wealth, when he wants to purchase a new weapon, instead of it coasting 2350gp for a new +1 weapon, it costs 3300 or 3800 gp. This means that a signficiant portion of the gun-user's wealth is tied up in the cost of the gun, where as other martial characters are applying that additional cost to more magic weapons or other gear. Add that to the fact that the reload time for firearms means you NEED more then one, and you have a considerable amount of a player's wealth going to the mundane cost of the weapon.
He may start with a gun as gunslinger (leaving non-gunslingers who want to use guns out to dry, which is something that no other weapon type does) but that initial gun will not be the only gun he uses his whole career, and the cost of those new guns come out of pocket. Hurting the character in relative wealth, since a gun's price is artificially inflated and not relative to its actual in game worth.
I'm definitely in the "pro gun" camp for Pathfinder, however one thing that I wonder about is how Paizo is going to handle the issue of barrels of black powder?
Every time I've seen guns in games, very quickly players start contemplating what they can do with casks of gunpowder. "Why don't we just rig the entrance to the cave with casks of gunpowder and then just blow up the lair?" or "why not just rig a trap and lure the dragon into the room filled with gunpowder?" etc.
Basically, I can see a wealth of thought coming from players that is just a scaled down version of "Why don't we just nuke the site from orbit?"
That's partially why we've made black powder so expensive. Something that can do the equivalent of, say, a fireball, needs to scale up so that it costs the same as a one-shot fireball magic item (such as a bead from a necklace of fireballs). It also needs to scale right so that a small dose that does, say, 1d6 points of damage on its own, should cost about the same as alchemist fire.
The game's economy, which is based on magic item power, often doesn't let realism be in the front seat.
In any event, the Inner Sea World Guide will have black powder you can buy in large enough quantities to blow stuff up. It won't be cheep, though. (Free Preview: A keg of black powder that can do 5d6 points of damage in a 20 foot burst costs 1,000 gp, which is 250 gp more than a one-shot fireball—we increased the cost by 250 to account for the fact that you can do more with a keg of black powder than you can with a fireball bead.)
What, exactly, can a keg of black powder do then? Deal 5d6 damage to all items in Y radius minus their hardness? I could buy 2 and a half wands of Acid Splash and seriously mess some stuff up for 1,000gp.
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It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that makes things expensive.
So what happens if/when a player in an AP set in Golorian finds out how to make the powder? He's got the skill, and he knows what ingrediants he needs, so can he make his cak and shoot it too(to butcher a saying)?
Are you guys going to give a plausible in-game explanation for why powder is so darned expensive? The ingredients are neither complex nor hard to obtain. The formula is far too simple to be kept a secret for very long.
I would explain the high price of explosives by stating that black powder and gun cotton can only be prepared in a null magic zone or anti magic shell. That means that Alkenstar gets relatively cheap powder, and most of the rest of the world does not. High level wizards could create anti magic shell powder mills, but this is not going to become a major industry. Without a strong demand for the stuff, and given the added trouble and expense of preparing it, black powder and weapons based on it remain magician's curiosities or toys of the rich. A powerful wizard has access to better offensive options, anyway. I'm sure there are some money minded types who create batches of the stuff for sale at jacked up prices. That would reflect the very high prices that we see in the books.
In Ultimate Combat? No.
In Golarion? Because the secrets to making gunpowder are closely guarded and controlled, allowing those who CAN make it the ability to set the price.
ALSO: The components to make gunpowder may be relatively cheap... but the skill to make those components into gunpowder that'll actually serve to cause bullets to shoot out of firearms is not. To bring a favorite TV show in to the discussion—on an episode of "Mythbusters" where they were trying to duplicate Captain Kirk's home-made cannon he used to kill the gorn, they started by trying to make their own gunpowder. It wasn't easy. Took them a LOT of tries to get it right (and remember, these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing), and even then their best results were actually not good enough to really produce gunpowder that could really work all that well.
It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that...
Well obviously some one figured out the right combination of saltpetre, sulfur, and charcoal to make gun powder or we wouldn't have any. And unless you can only find sulfur or saltpeter in your fancy "Secret gun city," then I'm pretty sure one of the Alchemists or Wizards or other smart classes running around the entirety of the continent would figure it right the hell out.
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Creative Director
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He doesnt have better access, he has worse. Because the gun itself half or 3/4ths as much a magic weapons. So assuming a player has relative wealth, when he wants to purchase a new weapon, instead of it coasting 2350gp for a new +1 weapon, it costs 3300 or 3800 gp. This means that a signficiant portion of the gun-user's wealth is tied up in the cost of the gun, where as other martial characters are applying that additional cost to more magic weapons or other gear. Add that to the fact that the reload time for firearms means you NEED more then one, and you have a considerable amount of a player's wealth going to the mundane cost of the weapon.
He may start with a gun as gunslinger (leaving non-gunslingers who want to use guns out to dry, which is something that no other weapon type does) but that initial gun will not be the only gun he uses his whole career, and the cost of those new guns come out of pocket. Hurting the character in relative wealth, since a gun's price is artificially inflated and not relative to its actual in game worth.
You make some good points... but beyond a +1 weapon, the base cost of a gun isn't as tragic as it seems. When you get up to a +2 or +3 equivalent, it gets increasingly less relevant. It's probably worth spending a bit talking about in Ultimate Combat somewhere nevertheless, but again, issues with reload times and all that are best solved with the gunslinger CLASS, not with guns. And again—if you or your GM uses the rules to lower gun prices as according to the "Adjusting Gun Prices" sidebar or whatever it ends up being called, in a game where guns are common enough that you can buy a magic gun in most magic shops, it won't be a problem. But I suspect for the average gamer, the idea that magic guns ARE less common than other magic weapons is an attraction.
In fact... it might even be worth putting a similar gun pricing sidebar directly into the gunslinger class section that says "Listen... guns are expensive. If you want lots of gunslingers in your game, you should consider lowering the costs. The baseline assumption of the game is that gunslingers are rare, so guns are costly. Adjust that as you wish for your game."
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Creative Director
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What, exactly, can a keg of black powder do then? Deal 5d6 damage to all items in Y radius minus their hardness? I could buy 2 and a half wands of Acid Splash and seriously mess some stuff up for 1,000gp.
It'd take you a long time to "seriously mess some stuff up" with that wand, of course. And you'd have to be a spellcaster already, which begs the question why you didn't just prepare acid splash and cast it at will as a cantrip instead of spending cash on wands.
The keg of gunpowder isn't a spell-activation item. Anyone can use it. That's a SIGNIFICANT advantage over wands.
Also? The 5d6 from a gunpowder keg explosion happens all at once. It's a lot easier to block/defend against 1d3 damage than it is from 5d6 using hardness or energy resistance or whatever.
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Creative Director
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So what happens if/when a player in an AP set in Golorian finds out how to make the powder? He's got the skill, and he knows what ingrediants he needs, so can he make his cak and shoot it too(to butcher a saying)?It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that makes things expensive.
He uses the appropriate Craft skill to make the powder, using the 10 gp/dose to determine how much he can make in how long, just like any other thing he wants to craft with the skill. Whether or not he attracts the jealous or cranky attention of local gunsmithing guilds or whatever depends on how the GM wants to play that out.
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Creative Director
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Well obviously some one figured out the right combination of saltpetre, sulfur, and charcoal to make gun powder or we wouldn't have any. And unless you can only find sulfur or saltpeter in your fancy "Secret gun city," then I'm pretty sure one of the Alchemists or Wizards or other smart classes running around the entirety of the continent would figure it right the hell out.
Yup! And in time, as that information spreads, the world will shift and change. That time has not yet come to Golarion, though. That time may be just about to start, but it's not in full swing yet. The fact that it's just as easy or easier for those alchemists or wizards or other smart classes to make magic stuff that WON'T blow up your house if you tip over a candle certainly helps to slow down the spread of gunpowder as well. Worth remembering that the world has magic, and that makes the demand for gunpowder less than it is in the real world.
What, exactly, can a keg of black powder do then? Deal 5d6 damage to all items in Y radius minus their hardness? I could buy 2 and a half wands of Acid Splash and seriously mess some stuff up for 1,000gp.It'd take you a long time to "seriously mess some stuff up" with that wand, of course.
Good thing I can buy more than 2 of them for 1000gp leaving me with at least 100d4 of acid damage.
And you'd have to be a spellcaster already, which begs the question why you didn't just prepare acid splash and cast it at will as a cantrip instead of spending cash on wands.
That just raises the FURTHER question of what the hell gunpowder does to make it so expensive.
The keg of gunpowder isn't a spell-activation item. Anyone can use it. That's a SIGNIFICANT advantage over wands.
Psst. "Anyone" can use wands.
But if you want to be facetious, I can buy 100 acid flasks. That's 100d6 of acid damage to throw around.Also? The 5d6 from a gunpowder keg explosion happens all at once.
Who cares? What are you doing that you are so time pressed that you need an AMAZING 5d6 damage at one single time that can't be covered by a Necklace of Fireball?
Also? The 5d6 from a gunpowder keg explosion happens all at once. It's a lot easier to block/defend against 1d3 damage than it is from 5d6 using hardness or energy resistance or whatever.
Necklace of Fireball.
Yup! And in time, as that information spreads, the world will shift and change. That time has not yet come to Golarion, though. That time may be just about to start, but it's not in full swing yet. The fact that it's just as easy or easier for those alchemists or wizards or other smart classes to make magic stuff that WON'T blow up your house if you tip over a candle certainly helps to slow down the spread of gunpowder as well. Worth remembering that the world has magic, and that makes the demand for gunpowder less than it is in the real world.Well obviously some one figured out the right combination of saltpetre, sulfur, and charcoal to make gun powder or we wouldn't have any. And unless you can only find sulfur or saltpeter in your fancy "Secret gun city," then I'm pretty sure one of the Alchemists or Wizards or other smart classes running around the entirety of the continent would figure it right the hell out.
Which makes gun powder worth less not more expensive than magic itself.
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Creative Director
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I've pretty much made the observations I needed to make here. Obviously there's still work to do on the gunslinger. That's the point of the playtest.
HOWEVER.
I'm not really interested in getting into a line-by-line argument with you, despite your apparent desire for one. So I'll back out of the thread and watch from afar.
To this thread:
"Spamming gunpowder" is a false argument in so much as anything is. Yes, you can blow up lots of gun powder. You can also use lots of other things in mass and they do lots of dice of damage. OF COURSE the players are going to go "man, what I could do with a barrel of gun powder here" because that's how gun powder works in the real world. It's a major, basic explosive. Of course, in game, you can END THINGS with MAGIC. Or just use large lots of ANYTHING to achieve large results.
assuming for a moment that blackpowder was simply a third of each of its ingredients...
thats three and a half sticks of charcoal per shot, now given I've always considered the stick of charcoal equivalent in size to the pencil or a black board chalk, that seems to be an aweful lot of stuff.
EDIT: Two sticks and a bit, thats for writing without double checking the rules. Still quite a bit of charcoal to ram down the barrel.
Though we don't have costs for either Saltpeter or Sulphur as far as i can find.
well, to be honest you could just explain that it might be cheaper to bribe the local red dragon to fly in and burn it for you instead? Seriously 10gp for 1 charge worth of black powder. That is like an ounce. Barrels can weight hundreds of pounds. If a party really going to try to find out how much damage a 32,000 gold barrel of powder is going to do to that castle wall? Heck for the cost of those 10 barrels you were going to use to blow it up, you could just buy the castle.
How can you get cheeper then free. A 11th level gun slinger with Secret stash deed and signature deed can fill that keg with gun powder as a free action . Not to mention he has infinite gold.
To bring a favorite TV show in to the discussion—on an episode of "Mythbusters" where they were trying to duplicate Captain Kirk's home-made cannon he used to kill the gorn, they started by trying to make their own gunpowder. It wasn't easy. Took them a LOT of tries to get it right (and remember, these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing), and even then their best results were actually not good enough to really produce gunpowder that could really work all that well.
I'm afraid I have to question the bolded part. What gives you the impression that "these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing"?
Please correct me if I'm wrong. By and large the Mythbusters crew are film grads with special effects experience. There is exactly one science degree in the bunch -- Grant's BS in electrical Engineering. Nobody has any formal education in chemistry or explosives.Look, I love the Mythbusters, but don't make the mistake of thinking that they're experts at anything other than making things look cool. They're not scientists.
well, to be honest you could just explain that it might be cheaper to bribe the local red dragon to fly in and burn it for you instead? Seriously 10gp for 1 charge worth of black powder. That is like an ounce. Barrels can weight hundreds of pounds. If a party really going to try to find out how much damage a 32,000 gold barrel of powder is going to do to that castle wall? Heck for the cost of those 10 barrels you were going to use to blow it up, you could just buy the castle.How can you get cheeper then free. A 11th level gun slinger with Secret stash deed and signature deed can fill that keg with gun powder as a free action . Not to mention he has infinite gold.
Yes for an 11th level gunslinger that ludicrous method is there, and it is a wonderful example of how this 'golarion flavor and then try to hammer in a fix via the gunslinger class' doesnt work while maitaing a ruleset that makes sense. For anyone who doesnt have signature deed secret stash however, it is far more cost effective to bribe the dragon.
The Glorantha setting for RuneQuest had a solution for this long ago. Availability/pricing of gunpowder/guns was strictly determined by a cartel, run by the dwarves. And the dwarves had special tiny critters that they could let loose, that ate gunpowder, and if you managed to figure out how to make gunpowder on your own, you'd get infested with them.
This is all from distant memory, but something similar might work for Pathfinder.
Ken
That's all this gun thing needs - more arbitrary absurdity.
In Ultimate Combat? No.In Golarion? Because the secrets to making gunpowder are closely guarded and controlled, allowing those who CAN make it the ability to set the price.
ALSO: The components to make gunpowder may be relatively cheap... but the skill to make those components into gunpowder that'll actually serve to cause bullets to shoot out of firearms is not. To bring a favorite TV show in to the discussion—on an episode of "Mythbusters" where they were trying to duplicate Captain Kirk's home-made cannon he used to kill the gorn, they started by trying to make their own gunpowder. It wasn't easy. Took them a LOT of tries to get it right (and remember, these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing), and even then their best results were actually not good enough to really produce gunpowder that could really work all that well.
It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that...
Have you read Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen?
While I prefer my own idea, I'm glad to see you have given this serious thought. That's the sort of good work I have come to expect from Paizo's designers.
I've made black powder. I didn't find it to be too difficult, although the first couple of batches were pretty poor. I was using store bought charcoal, saltpetre and sulfur. That made the process much easier, I'm certain. My materials were of pretty good quality and I wasn't working from scratch. I've never tried to refine my own saltpetre, although I have some books that cover that subject. Corning the powder proved to be trickier than I had expected.
Your explanation leaves room for an potential future expansion of explosives, cannon, and firearms across Golarion, as the technical knowledge diffuses among alchemists, weapon makers etc. Mine tends to restrict that future possibility. Beyond the question of diffusion, I don't see a huge difference in the implications of our ideas.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. Mr. Jacobs.
:)
-Ewan
Ugh.
This discussion brings up some ugly situations and clunky workarounds just to get gunpowder and guns into the world. I'm sorry it had to happen to Golarian.
Did anyone ask what guns add to the world? Was there some story Paizo wanted to tell that just had to include guns?
I'm pretty fond of a certain story Ed Greenwood has been telling.
Guns of Alkenstar!
Alkenstar 4 life, vatos!
Did anyone ask what guns add to the world? Was there some story Paizo wanted to tell that just had to include guns?
more or less this
In Ultimate Combat? No.In Golarion? Because the secrets to making gunpowder are closely guarded and controlled, allowing those who CAN make it the ability to set the price.
ALSO: The components to make gunpowder may be relatively cheap... but the skill to make those components into gunpowder that'll actually serve to cause bullets to shoot out of firearms is not. To bring a favorite TV show in to the discussion—on an episode of "Mythbusters" where they were trying to duplicate Captain Kirk's home-made cannon he used to kill the gorn, they started by trying to make their own gunpowder. It wasn't easy. Took them a LOT of tries to get it right (and remember, these guys and gals are experts in this type of thing), and even then their best results were actually not good enough to really produce gunpowder that could really work all that well.
It's not the ingredients that make the end result expensive. It's the knowledge and the training to make those ingredients correctly mixed that...
Have you read Lord Kalvan of Otherwhen?
While I prefer my own idea, I'm glad to see you have given this serious thought. That's the sort of good work I have come to expect from Paizo's designers.
I've made black powder. I didn't find it to be too difficult, although the first couple of batches were pretty poor. I was using store bought charcoal, saltpetre and sulfur. That made the process much easier, I'm certain. My materials were of pretty good quality and I wasn't working from scratch. I've never tried to refine my own saltpetre, although I have some books that cover that subject. Corning the powder proved to be trickier than I had expected.
Your explanation leaves room for an potential future expansion of explosives, cannon, and firearms across Golarion, as the technical knowledge diffuses among alchemists, weapon makers etc. Mine tends to restrict that future possibility. Beyond the question of diffusion, I don't see a huge difference in the implications of our ideas....
That "future" would likely be "Pathfinder 2.0" otherwise in a future book, they would be explicitly and purposefully putting out rules and mechanics to change rules and mechanics that are in place (or will be shortly)
Ugh.
This discussion brings up some ugly situations and clunky workarounds just to get gunpowder and guns into the world. I'm sorry it had to happen to Golarian.
Did anyone ask what guns add to the world? Was there some story Paizo wanted to tell that just had to include guns?
Guns can be added without the "eww guns, keep them away!" system that they are trying to rig in with them.
Yup! And in time, as that information spreads, the world will shift and change. That time has not yet come to Golarion, though. That time may be just about to start, but it's not in full swing yet. The fact that it's just as easy or easier for those alchemists or wizards or other smart classes to make magic stuff that WON'T blow up your house if you tip over a candle certainly helps to slow down the spread of gunpowder as well. Worth remembering that the world has magic, and that makes the demand for gunpowder less than it is in the real world.Well obviously some one figured out the right combination of saltpetre, sulfur, and charcoal to make gun powder or we wouldn't have any. And unless you can only find sulfur or saltpeter in your fancy "Secret gun city," then I'm pretty sure one of the Alchemists or Wizards or other smart classes running around the entirety of the continent would figure it right the hell out.
Ah, I like this! You've acknowledged something wonderful about Golarion: it's not locked in technological and social stasis. From Alkenstar's guns to Andoran's crazy new notions of human/sapient rights, the setting feels like a world in the ongoing process of change. That's great. It gives it a feeling of history in motion.
Guns of Alkenstar!
I just got an image of Alkenstar suddenly turning all Nazi Germany and building the infamous Guns of Alkenstar and the PCs are sent in to disable it...
Someone make this!
Ah, I like this! You've acknowledged something wonderful about Golarion: it's not locked in technological and social stasis. From Alkenstar's guns to Andoran's crazy new notions of human/sapient rights, the setting feels like a world in the ongoing process of change. That's great. It gives it a feeling of history in motion.Yup! And in time, as that information spreads, the world will shift and change. That time has not yet come to Golarion, though. That time may be just about to start, but it's not in full swing yet. The fact that it's just as easy or easier for those alchemists or wizards or other smart classes to make magic stuff that WON'T blow up your house if you tip over a candle certainly helps to slow down the spread of gunpowder as well. Worth remembering that the world has magic, and that makes the demand for gunpowder less than it is in the real world.Well obviously some one figured out the right combination of saltpetre, sulfur, and charcoal to make gun powder or we wouldn't have any. And unless you can only find sulfur or saltpeter in your fancy "Secret gun city," then I'm pretty sure one of the Alchemists or Wizards or other smart classes running around the entirety of the continent would figure it right the hell out.
Yeah, I can't think of anything I want to do more than buy books of what is essentially errata.
From what I've seen, guns only seem to be prevalent in ONE nation in Golarion. That already seems to suggest that the KNOWLEDGE of how to make gunpowder is rare (even if the ingredients are cheap, and as mentioned before, we don't even know whether sulfur and saltpetre can be cheaply refined in Glarion EVEN IF wannabe gunpowder-smiths knew to use them).
Moreover, since guns are the only edge that nation has, they'd likely keep it a closely guarded secret, ESPECIALLY if it can actually be rather cheaply made. Heck, they'd probably jack the price up just to create the illusion that the components are more expensive than they really are so that the people smart enough to even begin reverse-engineering gunpowder would find it more profitable and worth their while to learn magic instead. That is, if Alkenstar is the only nation in Golarion that has the secret of making gunpowder, and it is the only thing that gives their kingdom an edge in a world where everyone but them has magic, then it MAKES SENSE for them to guard that knowledge as a top-level national secret. And THAT could be why gunpowder is so expensive. Because the national defence of the one nation that knows how to make it hinges on it remaining secret.