So my play group and I have just read through the three new classes, though we will not be testing them out until this weekend. Reading the Ninja class, mainly the Ninja Tricks, left us kind of bewildered. The Tricks are far beyond that of rogue and that of many other classes. Anyone else have a similar reaction? We are going to post something of more detail later in the weak, but in general we think that the class may need to be toned down quite a bit. Otherwise we will be playing a Ninja clan come our next game, much to our GM's chagrin.
Yeah at first I was like "Whoa" -- then I tried to build a ninja as currently written.
It is very difficult to balance all the stats you want for this class. Cha is need for your Ki abilities, while Dex is almost a must and you really can not dump wisdom, intelligence, or constitution.
As such while it looks pretty heavy by the time you have your stats down it really starts to cool off.
and you can't really afford to dump str either. you need it for carrying capacity and for damage. power attack is a feat that any melee damage dealer will desire. and i greatly reccomend the scout/sniper archtypes/shot on the run combo with a composite shortbow and deadly aim. it will greatly help compensate for your squishyness. by reducing the amount of hits upon you. i like it much better than spring attack.
Well the presence of the invisibility and mirror image tricks seems to me to really help with the AC issues. I can't help but chuckle at the "ninja's AC" thread due to those tricks being available.
It's like
"We need a mechanic to make them harder to hit -- many some miss chance"
and I think -- why not just use the mirror image and invisibility tricks that are already there?
Well the presence of the invisibility and mirror image tricks seems to me to really help with the AC issues. I can't help but chuckle at the "ninja's AC" thread due to those tricks being available.
It's like
"We need a mechanic to make them harder to hit -- many some miss chance"and I think -- why not just use the mirror image and invisibility tricks that are already there?
Cause that leaves him defenseless for a lot of the day, and I don't know why high STR, CON(your trying not to get hit at all), and INT are necessary maybe not dumped but not high
Cha is need for your Ki abilities, while Dex is almost a must and you really can not dump wisdom, intelligence, or constitution.
Did I miss something? Why you can't dump wisdom, intelligence or con?
(Ok Con for Hitpoints, but a goo ninja strike with suprise and vanish unseen^^)
Cha is need for your Ki abilities, while Dex is almost a must and you really can not dump wisdom, intelligence, or constitution.Did I miss something? Why you can't dump wisdom, intelligence or con?
(Ok Con for Hitpoints, but a goo ninja strike with suprise and vanish unseen^^)
Con is needed for HP and Fort saves, Int is needed for Skill points, and Wis is needed for Will saves and perception. Ninjas have poor Fort and Will saves.
Thx.
NP.
Maybe I am being stupid here, but I really don't get why the Ninja is seen as MAD-prone by so many here.
Here's a perfectly good Ninja with a 15 point buy:
Human Ninja lvl 1
STR 11
DEX 16
CON 12
WIS 10
INT 12
CHA 14
Re-arrange some minor stats if you want more HP or more skill points, but I think that is perfectly viable. As a human, s/he gets one extra skill point and you can always get one extra per the favoured class.
That being said, I think the Ninja is perfectly fine as presented and it's the Rogue who needs some buffs to get in line with other classes.
OTOH, a rogue would be something like 12 18 14 10 12 7
More damage (or better will save if you swap Str and Wis) better AC and initiative and probably to-hit.
Said this, I do think ninja is perfectly fine.
IMHO, if they give a mean to HiPS and use SA with flasks to the rogue (maybe few times/day), they can work fine and even being really scary together :)
OTOH, a rogue would be something like 12 18 14 10 12 7
More damage (or better will save if you swap Str and Wis) better AC and initiative and probably to-hit.
Said this, I do think ninja is perfectly fine.
IMHO, if they give a mean to HiPS and use SA with flasks to the rogue (maybe few times/day), they can work fine and even being really scary together :)
Well, so you pay with a bit more spread-out attributes for being a Ninja. I'll take that trade-off. ;)
Also, you can talk to girls without them running away screaming from you. Well, outside of your work time, that is. :p
OTOH, a rogue would be something like 12 18 14 10 12 7
More damage (or better will save if you swap Str and Wis) better AC and initiative and probably to-hit.
Said this, I do think ninja is perfectly fine.
IMHO, if they give a mean to HiPS and use SA with flasks to the rogue (maybe few times/day), they can work fine and even being really scary together :)
Well, so you pay with a bit more spread-out attributes for being a Ninja. I'll take that trade-off. ;)
Also, you can talk to girls without them running away screaming from you. Well, outside of your work time, that is. :p
In that case, you could choose a more balanced approcah and still have a better constitution. But I think we more or less agree (see my previous post).
Con is needed for HP and Fort saves, Int is needed for Skill points, and Wis is needed for Will saves and perception. Ninjas have poor Fort and Will saves.
CON, they shouldn't get hit
WIS, okay dumping this may be badINT, you have plenty of skill points don't worry about it, dump it and raise charisma.
not as mad as they seem, really only need dex and cha
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For now dex isn't as necessary. Plenty of skills allow for extensive use of Cha if you're worried about losing on skills with low dex. Just dip into a martial class for armor proficiencies since no ninja abilities prohibit armor. On a 20 point Half Orc build:
STR 17 (7 points +2 stat)
DEX 13 (3 points)
CON 12 (2 points)
INT 8 (+2 points)
WIS 14 (5 points)
CHA 14 (5 points)
Wear full plate at level 2 and no worries about AC :)
For now dex isn't as necessary. Plenty of skills allow for extensive use of Cha if you're worried about losing on skills with low dex. Just dip into a martial class for armor proficiencies since no ninja abilities prohibit armor. On a 20 point Half Orc build:
STR 17 (7 points +2 stat)
DEX 13 (3 points)
CON 12 (2 points)
INT 8 (+2 points)
WIS 14 (5 points)
CHA 14 (5 points)Wear full plate at level 2 and no worries about AC :)
I was never worried about ac honestly, but good point on the dex, i'd like to not suffer ACP on acrobatics though, even with the bonuses the ninja gets.
high strength actually helps a lot now that I think about it, but considering a lot of ninja abilities are charisma based Im not sure why 14 seems to be the preferred stat.
Wisdom isn't that important when you think about it, wizards can't dominate what they can't see ;)
Edit: either way, its not a very MAD class
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Wisdom isn't that important when you think about it, wizards can't dominate what they can't see ;)
Edit: either way, its not a very MAD class
It is when you take 3 level inquisitor dip for solo tactics (paired opportunist and precise strike), travel domain (+10ft. speed), better initiative, judgment, divine favor, evening out saving throws, ect. Start 1st level inquisitor so you can spend your first feat on heavy armor prof. The hit on acrobatics is rough yeah but can be avoided with vanishing act.
As for charisma, yes it is important but strength contributes to much more DPR.
Agreed it is not a MAD class.
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My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?
The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
Int should get dumped, or at least put relatively low. You are less likely to be disarming traps because you don't have trapfinding/trap sense/evasion. However its always good to know that the trap is there, so keeping wisdom is good. Your 8 skill points per level will compensate. The only problem is if you are going to attempt to pick up combat maneuvers, etc.
As for the Ki expenditures, your average ninja has the same amount of Ki as your average monk. Monk players often complain that hey don't have enough Ki, but for ninjas the problem is you have even more ways to spend your precious Ki points.
Be conservative in the field. Use your resources wisely. Don't use a Ki power unless you really need to. For example wait to use ki for attacks when you really need to down an opponent quickly. Your sneak attack will help cover the distance till then.
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My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
Int should get dumped, or at least put relatively low. You are less likely to be disarming traps because you don't have trapfinding/trap sense/evasion. However its always good to know that the trap is there, so keeping wisdom is good. Your 8 skill points per level will compensate. The only problem is if you are going to attempt to pick up combat maneuvers, etc.
As for the Ki expenditures, your average ninja has the same amount of Ki as your average monk. Monk players often complain that hey don't have enough Ki, but for ninjas the problem is you have even more ways to spend your precious Ki points.
Be conservative in the field. Use your resources wisely. Don't use a Ki power unless you really need to. For example wait to use ki for attacks when you really need to down an opponent quickly. Your sneak attack will help cover the distance till then.
Well mainly my argument was for everyone defending the monk's AC taking a hit because they have Ki. That can't be counted on as a reliable defense. Its more of an Oh Snap button.
Well mainly my argument was for everyone defending the monk's AC taking a hit because they have Ki. That can't be counted on as a reliable defense. Its more of an Oh Snap button.My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
Int should get dumped, or at least put relatively low. You are less likely to be disarming traps because you don't have trapfinding/trap sense/evasion. However its always good to know that the trap is there, so keeping wisdom is good. Your 8 skill points per level will compensate. The only problem is if you are going to attempt to pick up combat maneuvers, etc.
As for the Ki expenditures, your average ninja has the same amount of Ki as your average monk. Monk players often complain that hey don't have enough Ki, but for ninjas the problem is you have even more ways to spend your precious Ki points.
Be conservative in the field. Use your resources wisely. Don't use a Ki power unless you really need to. For example wait to use ki for attacks when you really need to down an opponent quickly. Your sneak attack will help cover the distance till then.
It is, but that is the balance factor. OhSnap! buttons are for stealing the show, sorta. But much like a spellcaster, you don't want to nova out in the first encounter. it takes patience and weighing the options carefully. Where as the rogue is more of a fighter type, reliable in their execution from encounter to encounter (assuming their feats/talents are appropriate to the encounter).
My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
How does CON keep me from getting hit? And the feat extra ki does wonders for your defense, really ninjas aren't given much defense anyway, its like the rogue, high CON or not a full round of attacks and you go down.
INT, if you hadn't noticed the ninja isnt for disarming traps, not his problem, that is like saying all bards need max INT and disable device or they wont be able to disarm traps, they just aren't supposed to.
WIS shouldn't be dumped but a 10 will do, its only benefit is perception so just max rank it.
On a personal note: I am not fond of traps, more then once someone in my group has had to trash their character idea they spent a lot of time on because they drew the short straw and had to be the trap-smith. no other class has conditions only they can handle, they might do it best but others have the option
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My problem with all of the posts so far is the fact that you guys are relying on a resource that will dry up faster than a menopausal woman.
Dump Con you all say...how is it that you will keep from getting hit?
Dump Int you all say...how are you going to disarm that trap or spot it?
Dump Wis you all say...how are you going to spot that trap before it goes off?The problem with every Ninja build I've put together is the lack of utility or the lack of survival. I can't disarm Magic traps, and I have no Evasion incase one goes off. In combat I have a few escape measures, but that Ki will be gone and leave me vulnerable the rest of the day. I don't know about you guys but my GM doesn't build his campaign around 1 combat per day. Look at your Ninja Tricks and look at your Ki pool...how long will that hold out?
How does CON keep me from getting hit? And the feat extra ki does wonders for your defense, really ninjas aren't given much defense anyway, its like the rogue, high CON or not a full round of attacks and you go down.
INT, if you hadn't noticed the ninja isnt for disarming traps, not his problem, that is like saying all bards need max INT and disable device or they wont be able to disarm traps, they just aren't supposed to.
WIS shouldn't be dumped but a 10 will do, its only benefit is perception so just max rank it.
On a personal note: I am not fond of traps, more then once someone in my group has had to trash their character idea they spent a lot of time on because they drew the short straw and had to be the trap-smith. no other class has conditions only they can handle, they might do it best but others have the option
But thats the thing...this is supposed to be like a variant concept for the Rogue, but it lacks the utility and staying combat prowess. They are like a balloon...good to a point until they pop.
But thats the thing...this is supposed to be like a variant concept for the Rogue, but it lacks the utility and staying combat prowess. They are like a balloon...good to a point until they pop.
Combat prowess? really? once the ninja is out of ki, what can the rogue do that the ninja can't?
In pathfinder disable device is dex based. For a 20 point buy I would end up with a human.
str 12
dex 18
con 14
int 8
wis 10
cha 14
My point in saying that it was MAD was pointing out that many of the class abilities have a DC set by CHA. As such these low charisma characters (and 14 is low for a CHA focused character) are going to have problems getting said abilities to work.
The main complaint about the ninja is its extra powers over what a rogue has -- but the rogue's powers work at all times, where the ninja's don't.
A level 2 with a 14 charisma you have 3 ki points. Even if you buy all the right items as you level you'll only end up with 20 ki points and a DC of about 30 -- that's with all your level bonuses going into CHA getting the books and CHA enhancement items.
As such your other stats suffer leaving you less capable in areas not related to Ki.
Yes you could take the extra Ki feat, but what are you giving up to have it?
And with wisdom in the range of 10~12 you are really going to be hurting on the will saves, and wisdom based checks.
with TWF build
STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 8
INT: 7
WIS: 9
CHA: 16
Without TWF
STR: 16
DEX: 14
CON: 9
INT: 7
WIS: 10
CHA: 16
put the +2 stat bonus in either strength or charisma, either works, seems pretty workable to me. No obvious uber stat but I think it is more balanced that way anyway
Seriously shadow? You'll take a -1 to two saves that are poor saves for you, all the wisdom skills you'll want to not suck at and a penalty to HP?
I can't see that guy living very long.
Yeah, I've never seen anyone advocate a negative modifier to Con before...on any class...ever.
And really, str isn't that important for a rogue type. Your damage comes from sneak attack, not from a high strength, and you son't want to be lowering your to-hit with power attack when you're at 3/4 BAB to begin with without an increaser from class.
Seriously shadow? You'll take a -1 to two saves that are poor saves for you, all the wisdom skills you'll want to not suck at and a penalty to HP?
I can't see that guy living very long.
1 point has never ever saved me on a fortitude save, if its meant to drop me one point won't raise my chances enough, I take penalties on CON all the time actually, CON is the stat that says "i expect to get hit"
-1 on wisdom is a small penalty too, will save expects the caster to be able to see me in the first place.
and really they are only low because I want DEX, for the non-TWFighter it can be lowered if desired
I never saw the huge death penalty attached to a minus one
Edit: the strength is for the too hit not the damage, I don't believe the katana is finesse-able, if I'm wrong tell me
-1 isn't a huge deal -- on a single score.
The look of what you posted is "I don't mind that I'm making myself absolutely defenseless against anything that doesn't swing at me or blow up."
I mean if you have a low Con ok that's survivable. If you had a low wisdom, well I wouldn't recommend it but again it is survivable.
Having both though says, "I'm defenseless."
Besides what is all that strength doing for you?
I would suggest something more like this:
14 str 14 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha
And then apply race.
However even with this you still aren't going to see the DCs on the abilities to really cause worry -- which still supports my over all point -- you have too much you need to cover and not enough points to do it with.
Even if we ignore strength we only end up slightly better:
10 str 16 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 14 Cha
Still doesn't give enough to be head and shoulders above the rogue.
EDIT: The Katana isn't what the ninja should be using in my opinion -- and if he is I would suggest heavier armor as well (hides what you are better).
Besides if you are two weapon fighting trying to do so with a katana and something else is kind of shooting yourself in the foot since the katana requires something the light weapon won't -- strength. Using finesse would be (in my opinion) strictly better.
-1 isn't a huge deal -- on a single score.
The look of what you posted is "I don't mind that I'm making myself absolutely defenseless against anything that doesn't swing at me or blow up."
I mean if you have a low Con ok that's survivable. If you had a low wisdom, well I wouldn't recommend it but again it is survivable.
Having both though says, "I'm defenseless."
Besides what is all that strength doing for you?
I would suggest something more like this:
14 str 14 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha
And then apply race.
However even with this you still aren't going to see the DCs on the abilities to really cause worry -- which still supports my over all point -- you have too much you need to cover and not enough points to do it with.
Even if we ignore strength we only end up slightly better:
10 str 16 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 14 ChaStill doesn't give enough to be head and shoulders above the rogue.
I feel we disagree on ninja's needing INT, I feel they get enough skillpoints as it is.
I hate not having a 16 in something before racial so I don't like yours really, I'd lose strength too if a non-light ninja weapon is finesse-able so that saves a lot of points for positive WIS and CON
Good Finesse-able weapon/range build:
STR: 12
DEX: 16
CON: 12
INT: 7 (still don't think I need it)
WIS: 10
CHA: 16
So now no negative in WIS and a positive CON
I do understand where you are coming from on saying you don't like having below a 16 before racial modifiers -- but I would point out that this is exactly my point -- you have to sacrifice somewhere. But each stat is a stat you want to have. That is the very definition of a MAD character -- you need multiple stats to be effective and each of them needs to be good.
I do like that one a lot better. However I want to stress a point -- you now have much less skills than a rogue would, and are much worse at them than that same rogue would be.
A rogue could instead have a 10 Cha and have an wisdom of 12 a Con of 14 a Str of 13 and an Int of 10 (str 13 dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10) and be just as effective as your ninja here is. He has more HP and is going to survive in the dungeon better due to better saves and more skills. Out of the dungeon his social skills won't be as good but at least he doesn't need that CHA to be effective else where like the ninja does.
Now I'm not saying that a rogue would be overall better than the ninja -- but I am saying the ninja wouldn't be overall better than the rogue.
I think what scores are needed depend on what you want to do much like the rogue. Now I think the ninja is more combat oriented so if I wanted to play a skills character I would just go rogue. If I want to be a combat guy that had some skill I would go ninja.
I do understand where you are coming from on saying you don't like having below a 16 before racial modifiers -- but I would point out that this is exactly my point -- you have to sacrifice somewhere. But each stat is a stat you want to have. That is the very definition of a MAD character -- you need multiple stats to be effective and each of them needs to be good.
I do like that one a lot better. However I want to stress a point -- you now have much less skills than a rogue would, and are much worse at them than that same rogue would be.
A rogue could instead have a 10 Cha and have an wisdom of 12 a Con of 14 a Str of 13 and an Int of 10 (str 13 dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10) and be just as effective as your ninja here is. He has more HP and is going to survive in the dungeon better due to better saves and more skills. Out of the dungeon his social skills won't be as good but at least he doesn't need that CHA to be effective else where like the ninja does.
Now I'm not saying that a rogue would be overall better than the ninja -- but I am saying the ninja wouldn't be overall better than the rogue.
6 (8 with human 9 with favored class) skill points a level cover just about all my ninja ideas so rogue can have his extra skills.
I feel we really are agreeing though, The ninja is perhaps a little MAD, but he is just MAD enough to work ;)
Yup I'll go with that 100%.
6 (8 with human 9 with favored class) skill points a level cover just about all my ninja ideas so rogue can have his extra skills.
I feel we really are agreeing though, The ninja is perhaps a little MAD, but he is just MAD enough to work ;)
Ok...you must have very different ideas about the skills you'd want for a ninja than me, but that's just personal preference, lol. Personally, I'd want Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and UMD at the very least, and if at all possible also at least a few of Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand.
But how do you get those numbers? 6 is the 8 -2 for a 7 Int. But human only give 1 point, unless you're using your +2 to bring int up to 9, so it's be 7 human, or 8 with human and favored class.
Ok...you must have very different ideas about the skills you'd want for a ninja than me, but that's just personal preference, lol. Personally, I'd want Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and UMD at the very least, and if at all possible also at least a few of Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand.But how do you get those numbers? 6 is the 8 -2 for a 7 Int. But human only give 1 point, unless you're using your +2 to bring int up to 9, so it's be 7 human, or 8 with human and favored class.
I counted 2 for human, my bad
yeah we have different ideas but hey we can play differently and still be effective. That's whats called a balanced class. I'm happy with it as is personally
Ok...you must have very different ideas about the skills you'd want for a ninja than me, but that's just personal preference, lol. Personally, I'd want Acrobatics, Bluff, Disable Device, Knowledge (local), Perception, Sense Motive, Stealth, and UMD at the very least, and if at all possible also at least a few of Climb, Diplomacy, Disguise, Intimidate, and Sleight of Hand.But how do you get those numbers? 6 is the 8 -2 for a 7 Int. But human only give 1 point, unless you're using your +2 to bring int up to 9, so it's be 7 human, or 8 with human and favored class.
I counted 2 for human, my bad
yeah we have different ideas but hey we can play differently and still be effective. That's whats called a balanced class. I'm happy with it as is personally
Oh, agreed. Your idea of skills necessary isn't wrongbadfun, but it does reveal why a negative int is fine for you (I'm aaaaalways skill starved, to my own mind, and never ever take the HP as a favored class bonus cause there's always some other skill I want, lol).
I think for a ninja I'd go...assuming 20 point buy, human... Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16. Maybe swapping Int with Wis or Con (I don't feel like looking through feat prereqs to see which would be best). But that's me...also, some of the alternate tieflings would make awesome ninja - div spawn and rakshasa spawn in particular (yes, the penalty to Int sucks, but it boosts both primary abilities, so the overall cost would tip in your favor since higher stats cost more per point).
EDIT: This is assuming you can get a +2 Str item fairly quickly so you don't have the negative damage (although it's not -that- big a deal to have the -1 damage considering sneak attack)
Well, let's go through the stats one by one and see which ones seem really important for a viable character.
Strength: Always nice to have, but essentially not that important for a sneak attacking character. You'll use Weapon Finesse anyway and the encumbrance issue can be taken care of by a Handy Haversack and/or building some Muleback Chords into your Cloak of Resistance ( which at 1500 gp is eminently doable ).
Dexterity: One of your two most important skills, responsible for good attack, defense and qualification for important feats.
Constitution: Always nice to have. Should not be dumped, as Fortitude saves can really ruin your day. Hitpoints also always great.
Wisdom: Should not be neglected, because being used against your party is never nice. Also helps with Perception and a few other things. I wouldn't dump it, but also not put points into it. Iron Will helps out a lot to negate the will save issue.
Intelligence: Not as important as for the Rogue, since the Ninja doesn't need to care for traps. Still always nice, in case you want to go the Combat Maneuvers route.
Charisma: The second most important stat for the Ninja. Probably pushes the Ninja a bit into the role of the face for the party, since I think few people want to have the stat languish without taking at least one or two social skills to use it as much as possible. I'm not sure if making the Ninja the social character is true to its archetypal portrayal, but it seems okay.
Hence the three important stats for the Ninja seem to be to me: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma. The other three can be safely kept at ten or dumped for the min-maxers.
Well, let's go through the stats one by one and see which ones seem really important for a viable character.
Strength: Always nice to have, but essentially not that important for a sneak attacking character. You'll use Weapon Finesse anyway and the encumbrance issue can be taken care of by a Handy Haversack and/or building some Muleback Chords into your Cloak of Resistance ( which at 1500 gp is eminently doable ).
Dexterity: One of your two most important skills, responsible for good attack, defense and qualification for important feats.
Constitution: Always nice to have. Should not be dumped, as Fortitude saves can really ruin your day. Hitpoints also always great.
Wisdom: Should not be neglected, because being used against your party is never nice. Also helps with Perception and a few other things. I wouldn't dump it, but also not put points into it. Iron Will helps out a lot to negate the will save issue.
Intelligence: Not as important as for the Rogue, since the Ninja doesn't need to care for traps. Still always nice, in case you want to go the Combat Maneuvers route.
Charisma: The second most important stat for the Ninja. Probably pushes the Ninja a bit into the role of the face for the party, since I think few people want to have the stat languish without taking at least one or two social skills to use it as much as possible. I'm not sure if making the Ninja the social character is true to its archetypal portrayal, but it seems okay.
Hence the three important stats for the Ninja seem to be to me: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma. The other three can be safely kept at ten or dumped for the min-maxers.
Yes also ninjas will be good at using magical devices. Also I am thinking about maybe a halfling ninja working well since you do not need strength the bonuses to saves work well and get dex and charisma with a size modifier on stealth and a perception bonus and low light vision. giving up a feat instead of human does hurt. Remember ninjas are proficient with short swords so two weapon fighting may be a way to go with a ninja.
Well, let's go through the stats one by one and see which ones seem really important for a viable character.
Strength: Always nice to have, but essentially not that important for a sneak attacking character. You'll use Weapon Finesse anyway and the encumbrance issue can be taken care of by a Handy Haversack and/or building some Muleback Chords into your Cloak of Resistance ( which at 1500 gp is eminently doable ).
Dexterity: One of your two most important skills, responsible for good attack, defense and qualification for important feats.
Constitution: Always nice to have. Should not be dumped, as Fortitude saves can really ruin your day. Hitpoints also always great.
Wisdom: Should not be neglected, because being used against your party is never nice. Also helps with Perception and a few other things. I wouldn't dump it, but also not put points into it. Iron Will helps out a lot to negate the will save issue.
Intelligence: Not as important as for the Rogue, since the Ninja doesn't need to care for traps. Still always nice, in case you want to go the Combat Maneuvers route.
Charisma: The second most important stat for the Ninja. Probably pushes the Ninja a bit into the role of the face for the party, since I think few people want to have the stat languish without taking at least one or two social skills to use it as much as possible. I'm not sure if making the Ninja the social character is true to its archetypal portrayal, but it seems okay.
Hence the three important stats for the Ninja seem to be to me: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma. The other three can be safely kept at ten or dumped for the min-maxers.
I think that depending on how you plan on playing, those attributes can shift importance. If you want a melee type ninja who swings a magic katana, then you may want power attack and cleave, thus you need at least a 13 Strength. The sneak attack damage helps but the strength allows for feat options.
Con is definitely important but the ninja does have a few miss chance-tricks to rely on, whether shadow clones or straight out vanish. They are definitely not straight up combatants, so they can probably take some leeway here.
What I think is most compelling about the ninja class is Assassinate. So if I were making one for a new game, Charisma would get most of my love. I would want to be able to pick one target per combat and be able to leap out from cover and behead the poor bastard.
Just a thought, but since Bestiary 2 is out, how about a dhampir for a ninja (though, flavor-wise, such a character would probably not introduce himself in the manner of "Hi there, my name is Bob and I am a half-vampire ninja" or call himself a ninja as such, plus the Charisma-driven ki and the Charisma-driven vampiric -i.e. supernatural- ancestry could perhaps lend temselves to some interesting overlapping story-wise)?
With a 20-point buy, you could do something like:
1. Str 13, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
2. Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 15
3. Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14
4. Str 12, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 15
5. Str 10, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
6. Str 13, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 14
Etc.
It does not look too shabby to me (keep in mind I sort of prefer balanced characters, instead of optimized ones, and I do not 'do' stat-dumping into the negatives myself). By level 12 (i.e. close to the end of most adventure paths as far as stat increases through leveling are concerned), he should have something like Str 12, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16 or Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14 (unbuffed and without any magic items).
As I said, just a thought. :-)
Yeah at first I was like "Whoa" -- then I tried to build a ninja as currently written.
It is very difficult to balance all the stats you want for this class. Cha is need for your Ki abilities, while Dex is almost a must and you really can not dump wisdom, intelligence, or constitution.
As such while it looks pretty heavy by the time you have your stats down it really starts to cool off.
Sure they can dump int. They got 8 skill Points per level.
Str? If they gfpo dex theyt don't need more than 11 or 12.Con? All classes wants con.
Wis? Fighters, rogues, rangers, etc. all have bad will saves and our current fighter has 8 wis. Me, I wouldn't dump wis but 10 or 12 is fine.
Char? It's not like the ninja is a monk. Monk needs wis not only for ki, but for AC and stunning fist DC.
Char 12 is enough if you play a Ninja.
15 point buy:
str 12
dex 17
con 12
int 10
wis 12
char 12
or star with 16 dex and boost char to 14. You need to adjust int, str or wis do have 14 char, but that's not a problem.
Well, let's go through the stats one by one and see which ones seem really important for a viable character.
Strength: Always nice to have, but essentially not that important for a sneak attacking character. You'll use Weapon Finesse anyway and the encumbrance issue can be taken care of by a Handy Haversack and/or building some Muleback Chords into your Cloak of Resistance ( which at 1500 gp is eminently doable ).
Dexterity: One of your two most important skills, responsible for good attack, defense and qualification for important feats.
Constitution: Always nice to have. Should not be dumped, as Fortitude saves can really ruin your day. Hitpoints also always great.
Wisdom: Should not be neglected, because being used against your party is never nice. Also helps with Perception and a few other things. I wouldn't dump it, but also not put points into it. Iron Will helps out a lot to negate the will save issue.
Intelligence: Not as important as for the Rogue, since the Ninja doesn't need to care for traps. Still always nice, in case you want to go the Combat Maneuvers route.
Charisma: The second most important stat for the Ninja. Probably pushes the Ninja a bit into the role of the face for the party, since I think few people want to have the stat languish without taking at least one or two social skills to use it as much as possible. I'm not sure if making the Ninja the social character is true to its archetypal portrayal, but it seems okay.
Hence the three important stats for the Ninja seem to be to me: Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma. The other three can be safely kept at ten or dumped for the min-maxers.
God points but one.
Int is not important when it comes to traps.Disable Device is basd on dex and Perception is based on Wis.
So A ninja could start with 8 int.
I also fell char is not a big deal. 12, 13 or 14 is enough.
Wis 10 is ok. At least if you play a race with will a saves bonus. Elf, Half-elf, hafling, etc.
God points but one.
Int is not important when it comes to traps.
Disable Device is basd on dex and Perception is based on Wis.
So A ninja could start with 8 int.
I also fell char is not a big deal. 12, 13 or 14 is enough.
Wis 10 is ok. At least if you play a race with will a saves bonus. Elf, Half-elf, hafling, etc.
I referenced INT in relation to skillpoints, not in relation to Disable Device going off DEX. Sorry that wasn't clear.
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As much as I like how the Ninja and Rogue played out in my group's Playtest, the player with the Ninja noticed that they can get Assassinate at Level 10. I noticed this before once but only slightly perused it.
Assassinate is a nice ability with one small drawback. Isn't Assassinate simply the Rogue's Capstone Ability accessible at Level 10 by the Ninja? Minus the option to instill a status condition (sleep or paralysis)?
As much as I like how the Ninja and Rogue played out in my group's Playtest, the player with the Ninja noticed that they can get Assassinate at Level 10. I noticed this before once but only slightly perused it.
Assassinate is a nice ability with one small drawback. Isn't Assassinate simply the Rogue's Capstone Ability accessible at Level 10 by the Ninja? Minus the option to instill a status condition (sleep or paralysis)?
yep and Pressure Points is a more versatile, but weaker, version of Crippling Strike.
Crippling Strike is accessible at level 10, Pressure Points is accessible at level 2.