Ok so I have been fooling around with the idea of trying to get the single largest average damaging hit I can think of, but I am no number cruncher so I pose my question to the masses.
Guidelines
1. Pathfinder material only
2. To Hit does not matter
3. 25 point buy
4. 20th level legit
5. Doesn't matter how many or how fast the hit can come just want to know if i can hit something once, what is the largest average damage I can get
6. Bleed effects count once
Whether it is a two hander fighter archtype using a large bastard sword with two hands (with the exotic wep prof bastard sword) power attacking with the vital strike tree. Or it is a rogue with bleeding attack, the powerful sneaks, sniper goggles and hitting someone with a heavy crossbow. Or if somehow a duelist with his +10 damage was in there. Or if you multiclassed and you suck at everything else.
What is the largest, single, average damage, non-magical attack out there?
Yar.
I haven't compared this with anything else, but off the top of my head, for a single hit only, I would go with an Order of the Sword Cavalier doing a critical hit with lance weilded with two hands on a Rightious Might-Knight's Challenge-Power Attacking-Spirited Charged while on an Elephant Mount vs a human.
Strength: 36 (18+2 base, +5 levels, +5 inherent (Manual of Gainful Excersise +5), +6 enhancement (Belt of Giant Strength +6)
Charisma: 29 (18 base, + 5 Inherent (Tome of Leadership and Influence +5), +6 enhancement (Headband of Charisma +6)
other stats dont matter, but they will be either 7, 7, 9, & 10; OR 7, 8, 8, & 9; OR 7, 7, 7, 13.
Power Attack at level 20 with a 2 handed weaon does +18 damage
Strength damage with a 2-hander will be +19
Charisma damage from the Knights Challenge will be +9
The Challenge itself adds +20
Mounted Mastery adds your Mounts STR to the damage of your charge attacks in addition to your own... An Elephant mount can have a strength of 32 before magic enhancements, though I would give it only a 31 and increase it's Int to 3, teach it to read, and give it a manual of Gainful Excersize and a Belt of Giant Strength, and barding with the rightious property on it (so it can grow as well), giving it a final strength of 46.
Having a +5 Vicious (+1) human bane (+1) Thundering (+1) Shocking Burst (+2) lance will inflict (vs a human) +7x3, +2d6, +2d8, +2d10 on a crit.
Bleeding Critical adds 2d6 bleed on the crit
wearing Rhino Hide adds +2d6 to a charge
If the rhino hide gets enchanted with the Rightious property (+27000gp), you increase the lance damage from 1d8 to 2d6, and gain a +4 size bonus to your strength, making your 2-handed strength bonus +22 instead of +19
the lance itself does 1d8 (or 2d6 if enlarged), x2 for the charge, x3 for Spirited Charge, x3 for Supreme Charge, x3 for Crit.
Money spent on Equipment:
Lance 200 010gp
Manual of Str: 137 500 (x2)
Tome of Cha: 137 500
Belt of Str: 36 000 (x2)
Headband of Cha: 36 000
Rightious Rhino Hide: 32 165
Rightious Leather Barding: 27 040
Total spent: 743 715 gp
Gold left over (according to WBL): 136 285
~~~~~
DAMAGE on a critical hit with lance weilded with two hands on a Rightious Might-Knight's Challenge-Power Attacking-Spirited Charged while on an Elephant Mount vs a human: (2d6+22+20+18+18+9+7) x 8, +1d6, +2d6, +2d6, +2d6, +2d6, +2d8, +2d10.
simplified: 25d6+752+2d8+2d10
Average: 859 damage.
~P
P.S. If you insist on a horse instead of an elephant, it's final enhanced strength will be 42, which will reduce the final avareage damage by 16. This is also assuming that everything works the way I think it does. Otherwise I'd go Order of the Cockatrice and not worry about charisma, which means the challenge will do 3 points less damage, reducing the final average damage again by 24.... and you'll still be doing over 800. ;)
EDIT: I forgot a few things! The calvalier also gets tactical feats, so if your Order of the Sword and the target flanked by an ally, you can add 1d6 precision damage (average of 3.5) to your damage. You ALSO get a FREE Bull Rush on this attack, so if your target is next to a cliff he may take falling damage as well, and if you have greater bull rush, he'll suffer from AoO's from the movement you cause. It also hase to make a DC 14 fortitude save or go deaf. ...this is also assuming that Spirited Charge's x3 for lances stacks with the lances normal rules of x2 for charge attacks. If not, then the final is x7 instead of x8, which reduces the average damage again by 101, leaving you at 700+ damage instead of 800+.
Edit #2: I forgot to include the Vicious property and the normal Shock property of the weapon to the initial final tally. They are added in now.
It's entirely possible that I'm reading the rules wrong but I doubt the x2 from charge, the x3 from spirited charge, and the x3 from supreme charge stack. Charge makes a lance do x2 damage, spirited charge upgrades it to x3, and supreme charge adds the stun possibility is the way I'm reading it.
Edit: let me redo that math.
2d6 + 22 (40 strx1.5) + 18 (PA) + 9 (Cha) + 20 (Challenege) + 18 (mount) + 5 (weapon) ave= 99
99 x 3 for crit = 297
297 + 297 for charge = 594
594 + 2d6 (bane) + 2d8 (thundering) + 2d10 (shocking) + 2d6 (bleed) + 2d6 (armor) ave= 635
OK, now that I've done this a few times I think I finally got it right.
Yar.
It is possible that those multipliers do not stack, but the rules don't say one way or another.
I made the same mistake you did... shocking burst also does normal shock damage (extra 1d6), and the lance can be vicious as well (another 2d6), and you left out the +2 to enhancement from bane, which makes it a temporary +7 (epic) weapon. However, I do not believe the multiplier from the crit and the multiplier from the spirited charge/supreme charge add up the way you think they do.
we have a x3 (supreme/spirited charge) added to a x3 (crit) which becomes a x5 multiplier.
so if they do not stack, the uber hit should look like this:
2d6 + 22 (40 strx1.5) + 18 (PA) + 9 (Cha) + 20 (Challenege) + 18 (mount) + 7 (weapon) ave= 101
101 x 5 = 505
505 + 2d6 (bane) + 2d6 (vicious) + 2d8 (thundering) + 1d6 (shock) + 2d10 (shocking burst) + 2d6 (bleed) + 2d6 (armor) ave= 556
Plus a chance to stun + bull rush/trip/sunder + deafen.
...still freaking scary...
(tarrasque has average hp of 525, so change the bane from human to magical beast, and you can (still) potentially one hit the tarrasque)
~P
I think that supreme charge would stack with spirited charge. I see no reason why it shouldn't. If I recall, the 3.5 cavalier PRC had a similar ability and it stacked just fine. Furthermore, it seems rather odd that the cavalier's capstone ability would not work with a feat most suitable for the class. (Or to put it another way, are we saying that the cavalier gets a lvl 20 capstone ability that is for the most part already available to a 1st lvl human fighter?)
I'd read it as working as follows:
mounted with lance is x2 damage
mounted with lance with spirited charge is x3 damage
mounted with lance with spirited, supreme charge is x4 damage
on a crit, mounted with lance with spirited supreme charge is x6 damage.
We know that a mounted charge with a lance (which is a x3 crit weapon) on a crit deals x4 damage, and that with spirited charge said crit is x5 damage. Its worked that way since 3.0 at least. The addition of supreme charge to this seems to add an additional multiplier, as that appears to be the intent of supreme charge (double damage on a mounted charge, triple with a lance.)
The mechanics of this multiplier additions has been well laid out for some time now. The addition of supreme charge to the mix should not offer any complications. We simply increase the damage multiplier by 1.
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Trying the brute route first:
Sorc 14/Barb 1/Alch 1/DD 4
Cast Form of the Dragon III
+6 Belt of Strenght, +5 inherent bonus, all 5 level bonuses to str, start with 20 (+2 from human).
Add 10 from form of the dragon III and 4 from DD, plus 4 from rage and 4 from mutagen.
20 + 6 + 5 + 5 + 10 + 4 + 4 + 4 = 58 for a +24 strength bonus to damage
Then equip with a +5 flaming burst icy burst vicious scythe and critical hit. Make sure you are power attacking.
Damage without critical is 3d6 (Huge Scythe) + 9 (Power Attack) + 36 (Str) + 5 (Enhancement) + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Icy) + 2d6 (Vicious).
Critical increases that to 12d6 (Huge Scythe) + 36 (Power Attack) + 144 (Str) + 20 (Enhancement) + 1d6+3d10(Flaming) + 1d6+3d10 (Icy) + 2d6 (Vicious).
Subtotal: 16d6 + 6d10 + 200
Total (average): 289
Method 2, skill: Weapon master fighter (20th, straight up)
Strength 20 + 6 (Enhancement) + 5 (Level-Up) + 5 (Inherent) = 36, for a mod of +13.
Equip a Scythe (their mastery weapon). They can (a limited number of times) increase the crit mod by 1 as an immediate action when critical hitting, in addition to their always-on 1x increase, for a total critical of x6.
Damage without crit (same scythe as first one): 2d4 + 19 (Strength) + 18 (Power Attack) + 5 (Enhancement) + 5 (Weapon Training) + 4 (Weapon Spec + Greater) + 1d6 (Flaming) + 1d6 (Icy) + 2d6 (Vicious).
With critical: 12d4 + 114 (Strength) + 108 (Power Attack) + 30 (Enhancement) + 30 (Weapon Training) + 24 (Weapon Spec + Greater) + 1d6+5d10 (Flaming) + 1d6+5d10 (Icy) + 2d6 (Vicious).
Sub-total: 12d4 + 4d6 + 10d10 + 306
Total (average): 405
Looks like skill wins out on this one. Even throwing str down to 13 (minimum for PA) still nets you 297, or 8 higher than the brute method.
Note that the fighter would also likely have a couple critical feats to boost this further, but I was too lazy to look those up. The scythe could also be tweaked for higher damage (replace all but a +1 with shocking burst, acidic burst or something). Feel free to tweak until your heart shrinks with inadequacy. I think a +1 Scythe with all four elemental bursts and bane would do ~62 more average damage.
EDIT: Vital strike could also add a little damage here. Only about 6d4 (or 15), but that's still something.
@Charge-based-builds: This Weapon Master build is slightly nicer because it doesn't require charging or a mount. Maybe they could fuse somewhat to get a higher multiplier? Doubtful, but oh well. I never realized just how painful the cavalier's bonuses could be. What's with the "Mount" Bonus, though?
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(tarrasque has average hp of 525, so change the bane from human to magical beast, and you can (still) potentially one hit the tarrasque)
That was my first thought when I saw your post yesterday. On average damage(assuming that you crit to make everything go off) you could hit the tarrasque once and not only would you drop it into unconsciousness but it would stay that way for almost a minute until its regeneration brought it back up.
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Wizard 20, stats don't matter.
Disintegrate Spell (2D6/level) = 40D6
Rod of Maximize Spell = 240HP Damage
Rod of Empower Spell = 360HP Damage
Critical (x2) = 720HPOne more level would allow the Bleeding Critical feat for another 2d6.
Level 25 would use the Intensified Spell feat to the max, allow an additional 10D6, for another 180HP (Total 900 + 7(average bleeding)).
Invalid for two reasons. 1) The OP asked for non-magic builds (in other words, use physical attacks). 2) You can only use one rod at a time, the other feat must be applied legitimately (which it can be since the spell is only 6th level, you just need the feat). No-one ever doubted the superiority of casters (though, to be fair, they do have 3 failure points: AC, Save and SR, to say nothing of counter-spelling).
Stabbitydoom: The "mount" bonus is from an Order of the Sword Cavalier's 8th level ability "Mounted Mastery", which among several things, grants your mounts strength bonus to your charge damage rolls in addition to your own.
Father Dale: I know that some rules (like how multipliers stack) are well laid out, but it is still often miss-calculated from what I've seen. And there are still differing opinions on how spirited charge, supreme charge, and crits stack. You say that Supreme charge increases the multiplier by 1, but I say that's only for every weapon except the lance, which gets a +2 increase to the multiplier (making the supreme spirited lance charge x7 in my books, not x6). I'm still on the fence about spirited charge replacing the lances normal multiplier or stacks with it (for an extra +1 to the multiplier) *shrugs*
TheSideKick: I had an epic level evil PC in 3.5 (started at level 1 in 1e, about the time 2eAD&D first came out) who would regularly do over 1k in 3.5... He was a monster.
I'm now thinking about statting up a "guild" of insane power houses, called the Tarrasque killers, who know the location of the sleeping tarrasque, and enjoy (to entire world's lament) taking turns waking it up to solo it. Even though an Elephant mount and a T-Rex mount are tied for strongest mounts (with Tiger, Lion and Wolf in second place), I'm tempted to go with a Roc mount (only 1 point of Str behind the Tiger), simply for it's ability to fly. (though it has been a while since I've gone through all the possible animal companions/mounts, so I may be wrong on which is the strongest).
(also, I have played a cavalier from level 1 to almost 20, and statted up a level 25 version of him using some of the guidelines in the Corebook, and he was tons of fun! Halfling, wolf rider for first part of his career, Deinonychus rider for the latter. We had some 3x material and house rules though, so he got a bit ridiculous at times (sunblade lance, 200+ damage at 10th level, Book of Nine swords charge maneuvers & stances.... sick) We're happy to be doing pure pathfinder now) ^_^
~P
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@Pirate: The wording that lance gets an x3 is likely because lance is already an x2 on a charge and they wanted to ensure that the lance got some benefit out of the ability. Unclear, yes, but I sincerely doubt they intended the lance to go from x2 to x4 multiplier on a charge.
However, tweaking the Weapon Master build above:
Add Bleeding Critical (+7 Avg)
Change Scythe to +1 Bane (Matches Target) Scythe with all four elemental bursts (1d6 + (crit mult-1)d10).
Add the highest vital strike.
Make him half-elf with the Arcane Training trait and use it to activate a Staff of Form of the Dragon III to increase str to 46 and size to huge.
Add the "Killer" trait (+1 per crit mult when criting).
Add Rhino Hide and make it a charge attack (+2d6)
Normal damage becomes: 3d6 (Base) + 9d6 (Vital Strike) + 27 (Strength) + 18 (Power Attack) + 3 (Enhancement, includes bane) + 5 (Weapon Training) + 4 (Weapon Spec + Greater) + 4d6 (Icy/Flaming/Acidic/Shocking)+ 2d6 (Bane) + 2d6 (Bleed) + 2d6 (Rhino Hide).
With critical: 18d6 (Base) + 9d6 (Vital Strike) + 162 (Strength) + 108 (Power Attack) + 18 (Enhancement, includes bane) + 30 (Weapon Training) + 24 (Weapon Spec + Greater) + 4d6+20d10 (Elements) + 2d6 (Bane) + 2d6 (Bleed) + 2d6 (Rhino Hide) + 6 (Killer).
Sub-total: 37d6 + 20d10 + 330
Total Avg: 569.5 (387 - 752), though it won't ignore the Tarrasque's DR :P
If I wanted cheese I could toss on learning a spell-like ability (likely via a trait) and arcane strike for +6 damage.
EDIT: Split out vital strike damage.
EDIT2: Added damage range.
I don't think the challenge damage gets multiplied. It's labeled as "extra" damage which the multiplier ruled exclude in the calculation.
I did some research on this when putting together the Cavalier's Creed.
I suspect he's correct though that an order of the sword cavalier likely has the biggest single hit.
The multiplier should be X7 I believe.
Spirited charge is X3 and the Knights Challenge is X3 and the crit is X3.
You drop the base damage from the added multipliers. So its X3 + X2 + X2 or X7 total.
If we don't want to rely on assuming a crit, how well does a two-handed fighter do? They can auto-threat at level 19.
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I don't think the challenge damage gets multiplied. It's labeled as "extra" damage which the multiplier ruled exclude in the calculation.
I was wondering about that first point as well. I know that in the playtest it was originally precision damage to prevent it from multiplying, but I'm not sure if that carried forward and I just assumed it didn't when it was multiplied above.
20th level caster, wail of the banshee against 20 tough opponents in a group. That's up to 4,000 hp of damage in one blow.
More extreme: flesh to stone at 11th level -- potentially infinite damage ("How many hp?" "How many you got?"). "But he's not really dead!" -- well, he's actually 1 level deader than dead, because raise dead is 5th level, whereas stone to flesh is 6th.
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20th level caster, wail of the banshee against 20 tough opponents in a group. That's up to 4,000 hp of damage in one blow.
More extreme: flesh to stone at 11th level -- potentially infinite damage ("How many hp?" "How many you got?"). "But he's not really dead!" -- well, he's actually 1 level deader than dead, because raise dead is 5th level, whereas stone to flesh is 6th.
As stated earlier, the intent is for it to be from a chiefly mundane source:
What is the largest, single, average damage, non-magical attack out there?
So far we've taken this to mean that magic items are allowed, but the attack itself cannot be magic.
@stabbity-Correct!
Also remember average damage, so criticals are only counted for the percentage that they hit. I do not want to take into account the probabitlity of a hit for the base attack, but for my purpose if the crit range is 19-20 then you may count 10% of your crit damage. If the crit range is 15-20, then you may use 55% of your critical damage.
And although mounts are fantastic, (hadn't even thought of the elephant, kudos to you) I would like to remove mounts from the equation.
Thanks to all, I am getting awfully grand ideas. :-)
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@stabbity-Correct!
Also remember average damage, so criticals are only counted for the percentage that they hit. I do not want to take into account the probabitlity of a hit for the base attack, but for my purpose if the crit range is 19-20 then you may count 10% of your crit damage. If the crit range is 15-20, then you may use 55% of your critical damage.
And although mounts are fantastic, (hadn't even thought of the elephant, kudos to you) I would like to remove mounts from the equation.Thanks to all, I am getting awfully grand ideas. :-)
In this case I believe you mean that 15-20 counts as 30% of crit damage, not 55%. 55% would be off of a 10-20. Also, you'd probably only count 10% of the *extra* damage.
With this in mind the scythe-based guy I made would do 134 + 0.1*(569.5-134) = 177.45. This means he'd be better off with a Falchion.
Falc normal damage: <same> 134
Falc critical: 12d6 (Base) + 9d6 (Vital Strike) + 108 (Strength) + 72 (Power Attack) + 12 (Enhancement, includes bane) + 20 (Weapon Training) + 16 (Weapon Spec + Greater) + 4d6+12d10 (Elements) + 2d6 (Bane) + 2d6 (Bleed) + 2d6 (Rhino Hide) + 4 (Killer).
Critical sub-total: 31d6 + 12d10 + 232 = 406.5
Falc average = 134 + 0.3*(406.5-134) = 215.75
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As stated earlier, the intent is for it to be from a chiefly mundane source.
By ignoring the comparison, though, you look at the big numbers and say OOH! Fighters are awesome! It's like having a footrace, but you're only allowed to enter turtles and snails as contestants, not hares or horses or cheetahs.
I posted what I did to hopefully bring people back to earth a bit. The #1 thing that fighting types are supposed to be able to do is to take away hp. And the casters, starting at mid level, can do it faster and better. 400 hp doesn't compare to 4,000. That's an order of magnitude difference.
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As stated earlier, the intent is for it to be from a chiefly mundane source.By ignoring the comparison, though, you look at the big numbers and say OOH! Fighters are awesome! It's like having a footrace, but you're only allowed to enter turtles and snails as contestants, not hares or horses or cheetahs.
I posted what I did to hopefully bring people back to earth a bit. The #1 thing that fighting types are supposed to be able to do is to take away hp. And the casters, starting at mid level, can do it faster and better. 400 hp doesn't compare to 4,000. That's an order of magnitude difference.
But your comparison isn't really helpful. It only does that much damage if you have a large group that *all fail their saves*. Even then, by the time you get the spell SR will also take out a large group. Lastly, the enemies that would be numerous enough to target with this spell most likely have vastly less HP than the spell is dealing.
The fighter types, by contrast, generally get all their damage as the foes targeted by these attacks are singular and generally have about that much HP, and it is nearly impossible for the first attack of that level of a fighter to miss.Then again, a balance debate here will be pointless. The OP asked a specific question and I'm trying to stay on topic, valid or not. In my mind this thread is more about an interesting flexing of the system to see how far you can push an extremely narrow goal. In other words, it's like a puzzle. The result may be inane, but it's the journey that matters.
As stated earlier, the intent is for it to be from a chiefly mundane source.By ignoring the comparison, though, you look at the big numbers and say OOH! Fighters are awesome! It's like having a footrace, but you're only allowed to enter turtles and snails as contestants, not hares or horses or cheetahs.
I posted what I did to hopefully bring people back to earth a bit. The #1 thing that fighting types are supposed to be able to do is to take away hp. And the casters, starting at mid level, can do it faster and better. 400 hp doesn't compare to 4,000. That's an order of magnitude difference.
Certainly no offense intended to you, but when someone asks for a very specific answer the best thing to do is provide the most exact answer. Yes, caster may be able to do many times the amount of damage in a single round. The analogy that applies here is the OP goes to a car dealership and says he wants a powerful pickup truck with a lot of towing capacity and you show him the selection of Ferraris on the lot. People posting the melee builds are just honoring the OP's wish.
An option that doesn't require criticals or a ton of magic items could be something along these lines...
Raging barbarian with one level of druid with the growth domain for enlarge person as a swift action. Using a great club with shillelagh on it and the full vital strike chain would roll 12d8 + 1.5 x Strength modifier for a single attack. Add in some power attack to really help pump the damage. I think you'd be looking at something around 84 points of damage on average if you maxed out the strength of the character.
@stabbity-Yeeeeeaaaaaah.....about my numbers/calculations with the crit%*(damage)..... don't ask me...
In my defense I did warn all comers that I was NOT a number cruncher.
Yes I realize casters with AOE can get ridiculous damage.
Thank you to all who realized what I was asking for (a non-caster) and thank you to those who posted casters just for comparison. :-)
Thanks to all, good ideas.
The result may be inane, but it's the journey that matters.
Point taken. I retract my post. Simon, your reply was excellent as well; thanks.
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Ok so I have been fooling around with the idea of trying to get the single largest average damaging hit I can think of, but I am no number cruncher so I pose my question to the masses.
Guidelines
1. Pathfinder material only
2. To Hit does not matter
3. 25 point buy
4. 20th level legit
5. Doesn't matter how many or how fast the hit can come just want to know if i can hit something once, what is the largest average damage I can get
6. Bleed effects count onceWhether it is a two hander fighter archtype using a large bastard sword with two hands (with the exotic wep prof bastard sword) power attacking with the vital strike tree. Or it is a rogue with bleeding attack, the powerful sneaks, sniper goggles and hitting someone with a heavy crossbow. Or if somehow a duelist with his +10 damage was in there. Or if you multiclassed and you suck at everything else.
What is the largest, single, average damage, non-magical attack out there?
Ok I win lol. You need to have acess to magic but you still win on a technicality.
I have a monk AA build. I use greater vital strike mixxed with monks belt enlarge person and gravity bow. Zen archer allows unarmed damage to be used over bow damage. So all in all I will be doing 4D6 x4+str+dex plus all magical damage added to the bow average is 159. Now here is where I kick your asses hehe, arrow eruption in the APG allows me to use any attack as an aoe in a 30 foot radius. Do the math on how much damage that is. Now I know what you're thinking dur dur that's not in the rules! It functions off one attack roll :-) and is " applied to all enemies" so it is "1" physical type damage spell that can do what... over 3K damage not counting crits ;-)*Edit* iwas in transit and did a horrible post lol. Anyway if you would like to know the exact build look for "bettering the arcane archer" post on the forums.
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Ok so I have been fooling around with the idea of trying to get the single largest average damaging hit I can think of, but I am no number cruncher so I pose my question to the masses.
Guidelines
1. Pathfinder material only
2. To Hit does not matter
3. 25 point buy
4. 20th level legit
5. Doesn't matter how many or how fast the hit can come just want to know if i can hit something once, what is the largest average damage I can get
6. Bleed effects count onceWhether it is a two hander fighter archtype using a large bastard sword with two hands (with the exotic wep prof bastard sword) power attacking with the vital strike tree. Or it is a rogue with bleeding attack, the powerful sneaks, sniper goggles and hitting someone with a heavy crossbow. Or if somehow a duelist with his +10 damage was in there. Or if you multiclassed and you suck at everything else.
What is the largest, single, average damage, non-magical attack out there?
Ok I win lol. You need to have acess to magic but you still win on a technicality.
I have a monk AA build. I use greater vital strike mixxed with monks belt enlarge person and gravity bow. Zen archer allows unarmed damage to be used over bow damage. So all in all I will be doing 4D6 x4+str+dex plus all magical damage added to the bow average is 159. Now here is where I kick your asses hehe, arrow eruption in the APG allows me to use any attack as an aoe in a 30 foot radius. Do the math on how much damage that is. Now I know what you're thinking dur dur that's not in the rules! It functions off one attack roll :-) and is " applied to all enemies" so it is "1" physical type damage spell that can do what... over 3K damage not counting crits ;-)*Edit* iwas in transit and did a horrible post lol. Anyway if you would like to know the exact build look for "bettering the arcane archer" post on the forums.
Or I could use my build above with great cleave and lunge (or whirlwind and lung) to hit everything within 15ft with a similar result (for 36 hits that's 6633 damage on average, assuming all hit). Then again, this uses more than one attack roll which may violate the premise.
Also, yours is definitely invalid since it's not your attack doing the damage it's the spell you cast the next round. The fact that you use your normal to-hit is irrelevant, it's still the spell directly causing the damage which violates the premise.
EDIT: Remove vital strike damage from my damage calculation, since it can't be used with either whirlwind or great cleave.
Orc level 20 Two-Handed Fighter
Strength 38 (18 base+4 racial+6 belt+5 from advancing+5 from manual)
Feats Power Attack, w.spec + gr.w.spec,bleeding crit,furious focus)
Weapon +5 Flaming,Frost,Shock,Corosive,Vicius Scythe
to hit : 20+14+2+4+5-5 =44
every round he uses devastating blow,auto-hits and he threats a crit but with his capstone abity the threat is alweay confirmed as a crit. so every round he crits for:
[2d4+28(str)+24(power attack)+4(Weapon & Gr. Specialization)+ 5(weapon enchantment)+ 4(weapon training)]x5 + 6d6 (from Vicius,frost,flaming,shock,corosive) +2d6(bleeding crit)=70x5+21+7=378dmg every round
thats the best and most stable non-magic dmg dealer at level 20
(with some other parameters this can go up to an average of 430,5 with a +41 to hit)
edit (with the insane things i saw you added,adding those to the Orc his average dmg output could reach 480+)
NICE! :-)
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Orc level 20 Two-Handed Fighter
Strength 38 (18 base+4 racial+6 belt+5 from advancing+5 from manual)
Feats Power Attack, w.spec + gr.w.spec,bleeding crit,furious focus)
Weapon +5 Flaming,Frost,Shock,Corosive,Vicius Scythe
to hit : 20+14+2+4+5-5 =44every round he uses devastating blow,auto-hits and he threats a crit but with his capstone abity the threat is alweay confirmed as a crit. so every round he crits for:
[2d4+28(str)+24(power attack)+4(Weapon & Gr. Specialization)+ 5(weapon enchantment)+ 4(weapon training)]x5 + 6d6 (from Vicius,frost,flaming,shock,corosive) +2d6(bleeding crit)=70x5+21+7=378dmg every round
thats the best and most stable non-magic dmg dealer at level 20
(with some other parameters this can go up to an average of 430,5 with a +41 to hit)
edit (with the insane things i saw you added,adding those to the Orc his average dmg output could reach 480+)
Didn't realize the two-handed fighter could auto-threat. Good work.
If any single standard action that is a mundane attack works the great cleave still wins since you can't combine that and the THF ability, but the qualifier was "one attack" so I think you probably have the right base build.
Yar.
Seeing as how mounts are out of the equation, I was about to build a 2-handed fighter myself. I was going to do some more detailed math on it as well (I've already started figuring out more accurate average damages for each weapon, including crits based on multipliers, threat ranges, and fumbles/auto-missing on a 1), and comparing different weapon builds as well (bursts, vs. non-bursting for x2, x3, and x4 weapons, vs other properties)... especially since the 2-handed fighter doesn't get the special crit bonus' when he auto crits (only the weapons base multiplier).
I probably still will, and the build will probably be completely self supporting as well (not even going to buy his equipment, all crafted by the character for himself)
As for the whole area of effect things... I don't buy it. Like Stabby said, you can get the same numbers with whirlwind attack. Enlarged lunging whirlwind attack with a pole arm vs fine sized creatures squeezing means 32 creatures per square, just in 2 dimensions that is a ridiculous number to multiply the single damage by... make them flying and calculate your virticle reach as well, and it just becomes stupid.
On the same note: damage done to multiple creatures =/= damage spread out over multiple creatures. A fireball does it's damage ONCE to many creatures, it does not do massive multi-thousand points of damage spread out over multiple creatures. Otherwise you could focus the fireball to do all that damage to just a single target.
I am not going to include whirlwind in my upcoming build for that very reason. Even though it is one attack (with multiple rolls and targets), the OP wanted a single HIT (a.k.a. one attack vs one opponent), so I'll be focusing on that.
This below is the kind of detail I'm going into:
assuming 1 = miss, 2+ = hit, and crit threats are all confirmed (it makes less than a 0.08 difference to include math for failed confirmation rolls if a 2+ hits, and with crits auto-confirmed at level 20, it doesn't really matter at all), the average non-magical damage for the following weapons are thus:
Falcata: 6.075 (7.475 with Bleeding Crits)
Scythe: 6.25 (6.95 with Bleeding Crits)
Falcion: 6.25 (8.35 with Bleeding Crits)
Elven Curve Blade: 6.875 (8.975 with Bleeding Crits)
Great Sword: 8.05 (9.45 with Bleeding Crits)
Large Falcata: 9.45 (10.85 with Bleeding Crits)
...of course, this does take 'to hits' into concideration, even if it is auto hit except on a 1.
Expect another build and (maybe) some compitition for the above two-hander orc later!
~P
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I forgot about the world-of-broken that is the falcata... Oh well, the weapon master build works better with the highest possible range since most of the multiplier comes from his skill anyway.
Either way, we should stick with one-hit, one target to keep it simple, otherwise the ability to extend reach becomes more important than anything else.
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I forgot about the world-of-broken that is the falcata... Oh well, the weapon master build works better with the highest possible range since most of the multiplier comes from his skill anyway.
Either way, we should stick with one-hit, one target to keep it simple, otherwise the ability to extend reach becomes more important than anything else.
By no means optimized, but fitting for this thread, something I threw together.
Without taking criticals and mounts into account as dear Mr.Nice Guy asked, the two handed-fighter is the best one hit dmg (beacause of the critical bug). Other classes are pretty close and i will post 2-3 examples later
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Without taking criticals and mounts into account as dear Mr.Nice Guy asked, the two handed-fighter is the best one hit dmg (beacause of the critical bug). Other classes are pretty close and i will post 2-3 examples later
It almost seems like cheating. It seems disproportionately good since this challenge ignores the to-hit penalty but not the threat range.
Yes indeed, and even if we took the to-hit penalty with Furius Focus the Orc Fighter has +44 to hit for 378 critical, or +41 for 430+, or +39 for 480+ which is still pretty high for one hit every round.
From the other classes one that i liked for one hit without taking into consideration critical chances, surprisingly, is a hybrid of unexpected classes.
Orc 2lvl Barbarian/8lvl Alchemist/10lvl Master Chymist
str 38+8(mutagen) +2(mutagen enlarge)+4(rage) = 52
(note i dont have the books with me when i write this but will try to be as accurate as i can)
with the feral mutagen and mutagen abilities which give +8alchenical bonus to str, the one that grants you the effects of englarge person, the one that grants your attacks size increase. With the feats power attack and improved natural attack, with amulet of mighty fists (vicius,frost,flaming,shock,corosive), enchantement on his bite attack +5, vital strike(all the build) he attacks and damages like this :
4d6+21(str)+5(ench)+10(power att.)+6d6(amulet)+12d6(vital) = 113
(pretty good for an attack that doesnt get 1.5x Str bonus to his dmg neither 1.5x Power Attack, and its 3/4 BaB class)
when i go home i'll post the most damaging hit without crit chances
Well I have slightly alterior motives. The theory is that I would have (when really needed) a true strike up. That would grant me a decent boost to hit and confirm crit, soooo.... that is why I vetoed the "to hit" being a factor and still wanted the crit chance to be included. Although kudos to the brilliant minds for using the autothreat feature and autoconfirm. :-)
(Although I wouldn't be able to use the autoconfirm ability with 1 level of caster, a +20 usually nets you the crit as well)
Yar.
I was about to ask what your motivation was. If you were designing brutal villains, then I would make it a giant-half dragon-vampire-orc. But seeing as how this IS for a PC... does your DM allow bestiary monsters as PC races (if so, then Orc is great! If not, races with +4 str, the Orc, Gnoll, and Bugbear, are only possible through reincarnation).
I'm about to throw a bunch of weapons with various enhancements into Excel (along with various feats and attacks) to get a super detailed comparison of.... well not ALL, but at least some of the best/most obvious possibilities.
I will post again once it's all worked out (though I am doing a few things at once, so it may be a few hours).
Also: I assume your thinking sorcerer for the increased number of castings per day?
~P
Edit: ugh, or tomorrow. We'll see. (x-mas plans have changed half a dozen times in just the last 20 minutes, so who knows when I'll have it done)
Well the casting per day is nice, but a specialist bonded wizard comes pretty close.... so either one would work for me, just depends on the character background/personality.
So you want to include the critical factor too, right? What does your dm allow for pcs? is templates allowed for playing? monster races?
You character is martial based or do you want magic (arcane or divine) levels to?
Who is going to give you the true strike? because it has a range of personal. Give us a better view of what you are thinking and we will offer you with tons of ideas and variations :D
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Yar.
I haven't compared this with anything else, but off the top of my head, for a single hit only, I would go with an Order of the Sword Cavalier doing a critical hit with lance weilded with two hands on a Rightious Might-Knight's Challenge-Power Attacking-Spirited Charged while on an Elephant Mount vs a human.
** spoiler omitted **...
I'm not super familiar with the mounted combat rules (my usual GM hates all mounts and attempts to kill them first thing in every combat, so we just stopped trying to acquire anything but the cheapest horses we don't mind losing in the first random encounter of any journey) but can both rider + mount make a charge attack as part of the same full-round action? If so, the rhinocerous has strength & size equivalent to the elephant but also has a +4D6 'Powerful Charge' bonus on a gore.
Alternately the mount could take the Elephant Stomp feat from Sargava and, while attempting an overrun during the rider's charge, stop to do his gore as an immediate action. Pretty sure Powerful Charge would apply there as well.
In place of 1 level of caster for true strike why not get an intellegent weapon that can cast it 3x per day?
1 level of arcane, for the truestrike, the rest martial. I won't mind caster levels otherwise, but my point is to hit in melee, not be a spell slinger. (I love casting and ranged, but I have done in a lot lately and want to do something different, variety ya' know?)
Pathfinder only products, no third party. (So really just Core and APG)
25 pnt buy.
No monster PC races.
I am trying to find the largest single hit average damage. The truestrike will take care of any to hit chance, and usually to confirm crits, but the chance to crit and resulting damage should be calculated as well.
No mounts as dungeon crawling is pretty standard/favored within this group.
Nice i'll suggest some combinations (some maybe not have 1 arcane lvl, but all will be able to cast true strike)
I'm going to play a game of DotA now and after that i'm going out for beers so i'll post my ideas at the morning or something like that
Yar.
An Arcane Blood Sorcerer get 3 1st level spells per day, plus charisma bonus', plus they also gain Arcane Bond for an extra 1. Total: 4+cha/day
Sorcerer also never has to worry about material components. ;)
A Diviner Wizard gets 1 1st level spell per day, plus Int bonus', plus 1 for Arcana Bond. Total: 2+Int/day
Diviner also gains a +1 to Init, is able to act in surprise rounds even while flat-footed, can scribe scrolls, and can touch someone as a standard action to give them a +1 insight bonus for 1 round, 3+int/day
Both have good points. I'd lean more towards the Arcane Sorcerer simply for the extra castings of True Strike per day, but being able to act in a surprise round even while FF is pretty sweet too.
I'm about half finished putting 11 high damage weapons, along with vital strikes vs auto-threat attacks, various magical weapon properties, and optimized strength/2h-fighter bonus' into excel (max strength of 36, 40 when enlarged, greater weapon specialization, power attack at 19th level, weapon training, etc) to get a detailed comparison of average damages.
The numbers I will post next will assume that every attack hits except on a 1, and crits are confirmed on everything except for a 1 as well.
My x-mas plans got a bit more hectic than I originally planned, so for now I'm just going to break down these options in detail instead of writing up a complete build... for now.
~P
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Or I could use my build above with great cleave and lunge (or whirlwind and lung) to hit everything within 15ft...
Actually you cannot use a bastard sword as a large sized wepon, unless you have exotic weapon didn't see that feat in your build. Anyway it is a spell being cast true, but that's no different then using a magic sword and true strike. Also the spell makes arrows not spell damage so they are copies of my exact attack. And I didn't factor in a monks belt which would push the damage up even more. and if the spell clerity is allowed you can do it twice in one round
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Actually you cannot use a bastard sword as a large sized wepon, unless you have exotic weapon didn't see that feat in your build. Anyway it is a spell being cast true, but that's no different then using a magic sword and true strike. Also the spell makes arrows not spell damage so they are copies of my exact attack. And I didn't factor in a monks belt which would push the damage up even more. and if the spell clerity is allowed you can do it twice in one round
Or I could use my build above with great cleave and lunge (or whirlwind and lung) to hit everything within 15ft...
The point is that your spell causes the damage directly. True strike modifies an attack, that spell mimicks one. You can enhance the attack in many indirect ways, but the attack itself must still exist without the magic for the attack to count*, which is not true with the spell you're using.
Either way, we're staying away from anything multi-target to avoid making this a fight over reach.
On the subject of weapon size: the character I posted is polymorphed into a huge dragon (done so through a staff he can use thanks to a half-elf racial trait from the APG). That's how he's wielding that size of weapon. Dragons are capable of dexterous manipulation of objects, after all. Huge dragons only have a reach of 10ft, though, so even with lunge he only gets to 15ft. If he used a pole-arm instead he could have 25ft reach and hit the 5ft/10ft targets with a natural weapon.
*Obviously, in real play it all counts, but this is more of a puzzle than a game session.