I always wanted to see clerics get a core group of spells they all know. But most of their spell list comes from the god they worship. So gods player a much bigger role in what clerics can or can't do.
This is one of the things I really liked about AD&D 2nd Edition, where divine spells were divided into various spheres of influence and depending on their god a cleric either gained minor/major/or no access to various spheres. I also really liked the supplement that took the notion further giving each cleric different class powers depending on their god's portfolio. I always felt that domains are a watered down version of this. Of course, the old system was anything but balanced and made certain clerics even more awesome and powerful.
I do, however, like the idea of sub-domains to allow for even more differentiation between various gods and faiths and their clerics, inquisitors, and other assorted divine casters. And, no doubt, the various alternatives for Channel Energy in Ultimate Magic will add even more flexibility to clerics.
*Most of the Archetypes give up to much for to little benefit. None of my players think their worth it and would rather play single class any day of the week.While I don't deny that not all of the archetypes are winners, I wouldn't say that most are useless. In fact, some are outright awesome and are almost as good as a whole new class!
*The oracle seems weak compared to a sorcerer or cleric. None of my players think the class is worth it.They're more focused, that's true - but they're better at the thing they do best than a cleric specialising in the same thing.
It's the revelations. Not all are great, but each mystery has enough revelations that are outright awesome.
An oracle of war eats battle clerics for breakfast, for example, and the oracle of life manages to best the cleric as best healer in the game.
Some archetypes are better than others I agree, unfortunately most seems to focused and loose out on some of the core classes best abilities.
I have yet to try the oracle, so what you say may be true. I might stat one up and use in my game just to see how the class feels (I really enjoyed the JuJu mystery from Serpent skull.)
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My one worry would be that certain spheres would make some gods vastly more popular or appealing than others before the fluff/RP aspects ever came into play, but admittedly that effect is already present by way of domains.
Breaking up the most porblematic spell combos beetween (possibly mutually exclusive) spheres could be dandy as well.
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So we can stop derailing, here is the link to my discussion thread. I promise to get back to work on this by next week if not sooner.
Yes it does mean just that. They are not core spells. Meaning it is always up to the GM to allow them. Nothing says by RAW you must allow them.There's nothing in the RAW saying you have to allow any given spell in the Core Rulebook, either.
Actually by RAW they do get the spells, but any DM is free to overrule the book as he/she sees fit. RAW assumes you follow the books instructions.
If you were just trying to say nobody has to do exactly what the book says we all understand that. I don't think anyone runs a 100% RAW game anyway.
I think the point was, nothing in the RAW says they are not allowed either.I had to go back and check the Core Rules to confirm it, but seeker's right.
Per the RAW, clerics cast spells "drawn from the cleric spell list presented in Chapter 10." As in, the cleric spell list in Chapter 10 of the Core Rules. Other lists of cleric spells do not appear in Chapter 10 of the Core Rules, and are thus not automatically available to clerics, per the description of the cleric class.
Nice one. This could lead to special prayers, secrets, quests and divine gift to unlock other spells. Nice, nice, and full of RP potential.
Thanks!
Nevertheless, my points remains valid: Clerics do have things to change, but not in their class features. I see that people would prefer something that switches, say, a domain for something, or energy channel for another feature... but all the "switches" (Archetyes) are there for a purpose: customization.
And coupling domains properly, clerics can really feel different. I wonder if there could be a greater customization for them.
Of course, this does not mean I wouldn't see things like my examples above in the future ;)
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Too many projects man. We still need to finish our Monster classes. Starting this around the 'Holidays' may not have been the best timing one could have hoped for lol.
I have ADOS. Attention Deficit OOO SHINY.
I figure I'll have plenty of time to keep at them when I get over to Iraq if I don't get them done beforehand. Not a lot to do on down times. :P
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I agree, that would have been good!