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Ok here is my question,and I will explain why momentarily
Is there any relationship here? I read the the Lich-Wolf was a worshipper of Urgathoa. One of her domains is undeath. Orcus is the awesomely cool demon Prince of the Undead, and the Whispering Tyrant is one of Golarions BBEG's. Are they in any way connected...I will tell why I ask.
I am running Shackled city. My group is about to encounter the Ebon Triad. Since I ran Age of Worms (very memorable campain) in Greyhawk, and am running SCAP in Golarion, I want to change the group. The story goes that Dark Myrakul (powerful Lick) gaurds Adimarchus in his prison, for Grazzt. Since Grazzt is not a Golarion demon Lord, I was going to change it to Orcus or the Whispering Tyrant. I was just not wanting to step on any cool canon that may come into play. I was thinking that if the 3 were somehow allied (Tyrant, Orcus and Urgathoa) they would serve as a new kind of "Ebon Triad", with Dark Myrakul as the cool end BBEG they fight. He could be on par with Tar-Baphon perhaps.
Any input guys? Thanks in advance..
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Well, Graz'zt isn't completely gone. Paizo published the name Vazz'ht (or something) on a list of Demon Lords. They can't go much further cuz, of course, Graz'zt and "Vhaz'zt" aren't too different and Graz'zt is WotC IP.
Dark Myrakul as equitable with Tar Baphon doesn't seem so good to me. I see Tar Bahon as powerful as, say, Acererak -- that is, too powerful for any but well-epic level PCs. Dark Myrakul is only what, CR18?
In your version why is Adimarchus being guarded for Graz'zt?
If you're looking to change from Graz'zt to some other evil Power, I'd go with Urgathoa, having Dark Myrakul guarding Adimarchus for Urgathoa.
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Thanks for your response...I love bouncing ideas like this
In the Hardcover, which is 3.5, Myrakul is a CR23, which after being converted makes him probably closer to a 25. My main thing was to change some of the lower level fights with the Triad members, then I kinda got caught up in a whole seperate thing...I was going to use the same reason that grazzt trapped Adimarchus, he was a lifelong enemy, and was duped into performing questionable acts, which got him banished, then he kinda "lost his way" and was tricked by the demon Lord into his current prison, which drove him insane and split his personalites into the Angelic, and the Demonic.
My efforts to find a substitute for the Ebon Triad led me to look at the Whispering Way, thanks to a suggestion. I figured since his jailer was a uber-lichfiend, that the undeath tie in fit well..I just wondered if there was any connections between the Whispering Way, the Demon Lord of the Undead, the Goddess of the Undead, and the Uber-Badass Tyrant...I thought that the PCs fighting the Cagewrights, and the cultists of Whispering Way would be pretty cool...
The whole thinking outloud and talking with other like minded individuals helps my thought process..
Creative Director
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Well, Graz'zt isn't completely gone. Paizo published the name Vazz'ht (or something) on a list of Demon Lords. They can't go much further cuz, of course, Graz'zt and "Vhaz'zt" aren't too different and Graz'zt is WotC IP.
Dark Myrakul as equitable with Tar Baphon doesn't seem so good to me. I see Tar Bahon as powerful as, say, Acererak -- that is, too powerful for any but well-epic level PCs. Dark Myrakul is only what, CR18?
In your version why is Adimarchus being guarded for Graz'zt?
If you're looking to change from Graz'zt to some other evil Power, I'd go with Urgathoa, having Dark Myrakul guarding Adimarchus for Urgathoa.
Actually... that would be Green Ronin who put "Vaz'zht" on a list of other demon lords. I'm not sure we ever picked that name up in something we published.
The demon lord we're pretty much using as a "Graz'zt" replacement is Socothbenoth.
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But James, if you are so inclined, let me know what you think of my idea of making Myrakul a paragon of the Whispering Way, and turning the Ebon Triad into a cell of the way...Myrakul could be working for Orcus to keep Adimarchus imprisoned...So maybe Orcus is on par with Tar-Baphon in the heirarchy of the Way...
It should be mentioned that Orcus is OGL friendly, at least in the mythical form.
All you Loves and Cupids cry
and all you men of feeling
my girl’s sparrow is dead,
my girl’s beloved sparrow.
She loved him more than herself.
He was sweeter than honey, and he
knew her, as she knows her mother.
He never flew out of her lap,
but, hopping about here and there,
just chirped to his lady, alone.
Now he is flying the dark
no one ever returns from.
Evil to you, evil Shades
of Orcus, destroyers of beauty.
You have stolen the beautiful sparrow from me.
Oh sad day! Oh poor little sparrow!
Because of you my sweet girl’s eyes
are red with weeping, and swollen.
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Orcus as "some kinda" BIG EVIL THING is available.
Just like Tiamat and Demogorgon.
Orcus as "some Demon Lord of Undead who rules Thanatos, the 113th Layer of the Abyss" is absolutely not available.
So if Paizo wanted to do a Demogorgon or Orcus or Tiamat they'd have to completely rewrite the monster and only keep the name. And they don't want that. And we don't want that.
. . . . Sorry, Jacobs -- knew I saw Vaz'zht somewheres.
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Orcus as "some kinda" BIG EVIL THING is available.
Just like Tiamat and Demogorgon.
Orcus as "some Demon Lord of Undead who rules Thanatos, the 113th Layer of the Abyss" is absolutely not available.
So if Paizo wanted to do a Demogorgon or Orcus or Tiamat they'd have to completely rewrite the monster and only keep the name.
. . . . Sorry, Jacobs -- knew I saw Vaz'zht somewheres.
Actually, Orcus Demon Lord of Undead, big fat ugly with goat head is available. Tome of Horrors, for the win.
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Wow, I'd forgotten how cool Dark Myrakul is. CR23!
I guess he would be closer to my idea of Tar Baphon.
If that's the case I'd leave enough storyline open in your campaign so you don't get too tied in with Tar Baphon. With 6 volumes of Adventure Path coming starting February located in Ustalov -- not far from Lastwall, and supposedly with some Tar Baphon stuff, I wouldn't go too far if you don't want "step on any cool canon."
Curious, who do you see as the Ebon Triad now that you're redoing them?
(Mine were Vecna, Asmodeus and Fraz Urb 'Lu.)
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Yeah..loom at pathfinderwiki under religons...Yes on Orcus, no on Grazzt and Demogorgon, it seems...some appear to have been OGL and some not.
thought process continuing..OK, so Orcus is not the master of sublty, so maybe he does not have the brains to organize Adimarchus fall from grace. Would the Tyrant and his followers be capable, or Uragthoa? I do not mind subbing for Grazzt, but having Myrakul there begs for some kind of connection to Undead. Do any of the Demon Lords have alliances with the WW or Uragothoa? Would they perhaps be enlisted to facilitate Adimarchus fall..Maybe Adimarchus was an Angel of Sarenrae, who is the mortal enemy of Undead. Would one of the above enlist the aid of Socothbenoth to orchestrate all this?
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I loves me some Fraz Urb'Luu..my favorite setting of all time is Greyhawk, with Golarion coming in second, although we have only begun scratching the surface of how cool golarion could and will be. With some of the awesome brains employed by Paizo now, it no doubt will vault to the top of my list. I always liked Greyhawk, but became fanatical about it after Eric and James, along with guys like Tito Leati and Nick Logue etc,,started expanding it. I went so far as to pick up alot of the old 80s stuff I had lost in transit, such as Iuz the Evil...Iggwilv, Iuz, the Circl of 8, Knights of Shielding, Valley of the Mage were all awesome. While I realize the problem of production times, writing, proofreading, re-writing, publishing etc..I wish we would get a hell of a lot more info on the mythos, backstory and inner workings of the world in general...
I'm sure alot of that is being handled in the AP's as well, I just do not have them all..I must subscribe...
The name "Demogorgon" is public domian, the idea "Demogorgon as a twin-headed baboon demon lord" is closed.
Only slightly.
While I can't quite channel Gygax, if you check the Wikipedia entry for Geryon, one of the other demons from 1st ed AD&D, you'll find that Hesiod's description of Geryon looks a lot like the old AD&D depiction of Demogorgon whereas the AD&D description of Geryon looks based on Dante's and Gustav Dore's illustration thereof. Demogorgon, OTOH, doesn't have a clear description from the public domain sources so it would look easy enough to port over one of the descriptions that Geryon didn't need and make that one Demogorgon.
Of course there are a lot of writers who used Demogorgon over the years so it's entirely possible the two mandrill heads and tentacles were pulled from the public domain specifically.
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Creative Director
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But James, if you are so inclined, let me know what you think of my idea of making Myrakul a paragon of the Whispering Way, and turning the Ebon Triad into a cell of the way...Myrakul could be working for Orcus to keep Adimarchus imprisoned...So maybe Orcus is on par with Tar-Baphon in the heirarchy of the Way...
The Whispering Way is more about undead than they are about outsiders, so thematically it's not a perfect fit. And if you go on to play Age of Worms, the role played by the Ebon Triad there is DEFINITELY not appropriate for the Whispering Way.
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Creative Director
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Specifically about Demogorgon:
As far as "fantasy swords and sorcery tabletop roleplaying games using the d20 core mechanic" are concerned, Demogorgon's pretty locked in to the game's history and mythos as a two headed monkey dinosaur. On top of that, he happens to be one of my FAVORITE demon lords. As Creative Director of Paizo, I'm not interested in capitalizing on his name and reworking his image and role in the game completely—I'd rather just mention the name here and there and then let gamers use him as he exists already. We can't publish information about two headed monkey dinosaurs named Demogorgon, but folks around the world can use that information in their home games. And if we don't "overwrite" that with official Paizo products it's a heck of a lot easier to put that version into Golarion for anyone who might be so minded.
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Specifically about Demogorgon:
As far as "fantasy swords and sorcery tabletop roleplaying games using the d20 core mechanic" are concerned, Demogorgon's pretty locked in to the game's history and mythos as a two headed monkey dinosaur. On top of that, he happens to be one of my FAVORITE demon lords. As Creative Director of Paizo, I'm not interested in capitalizing on his name and reworking his image and role in the game completely—I'd rather just mention the name here and there and then let gamers use him as he exists already. We can't publish information about two headed monkey dinosaurs named Demogorgon, but folks around the world can use that information in their home games. And if we don't "overwrite" that with official Paizo products it's a heck of a lot easier to put that version into Golarion for anyone who might be so minded.
Age of Worms was done and completed years ago. Savage Tide about 2 years ago, now onto SCAP..So, maybe I'll just replace Grazzt with Soconothebenaedrine, or however you spell that, and make them cultists of his...
Thank you kind sir..