Losing access to spells temporarily, or even permanently (until replaced), is a challenge, a challenge that good players will embrace.
Lost spells temporarily is not what happens when you destroy your spellbook. If a "good player" embraces the "challenge" of their spellbook being destroyed and having to relearn spells - if they can (have you even looked those rules up?) - then you have confused a good player with a masochist.
Losing access to spells temporarily, or even permanently (until replaced), is a challenge, a challenge that good players will embrace.
DING.
Good players enjoy a challenge, not having nerf bumpers placed on everything.
Lost spells temporarily is not what happens when you destroy your spellbook. If a "good player" embraces the "challenge" of their spellbook being destroyed and having to relearn spells - if they can (have you even looked those rules up?) - then you have confused a good player with a masochist.
I have, in fact, "looked those rules up," (subtle insult aside) and replacing a spellbook, or just the pages (spells) that were damaged, is not very difficult at all.
Having to develop new strategies because your "staple" spells are temporarily unavailable is a challenge that good players will embrace. Having to work from a limited toolbox is more difficult, but it is hardly "masochistic". It's an added degree of difficulty, nothing more, nothing less.
Some players will find ways to contribute and come out the better for it, usually with a new appreciation for their own creativity. Others will throw up their hands in disgust and quit, decrying the "unfairness" of it all. I'll leave it to you to decide which are the better players.
No rule, yet, in the real world, dropping your iPhone in the toilet is potentially going to have negative effects. Spilling a soda on your laptop is potentially going to have negative effects.
Not really so much as you obviously think.
I sent my cel phone through the washer and dryer in my pants pocket. Sum total of the damage? The interior LCD screen was whited-out. The phone was still totally usable as long as you knew how to navigate by heart rather than by sight. I could even still identify incoming calls because the exterior LCD screen still functioned.
Not really so much as you obviously think.
I sent my cel phone through the washer and dryer in my pants pocket. Sum total of the damage? The interior LCD screen was whited-out. The phone was still totally usable as long as you knew how to navigate by heart rather than by sight. I could even still identify incoming calls because the exterior LCD screen still functioned.
Flukes happen, and that's still a negative effect. Cool that it didn't get damaged more, and rather impressive.
My point is, we take active caution in preventing damage to our property. If I decide to drive out to a local swimming hole, as I did many times this past summer, I leave non-essentials in my car, and that which I do take down (wallet, phone, keys with remote fob, etc) get placed in a ziploc bag to do a reasonable job protecting them from an accidental dump on the sandy shore or into the water.
I (and obviously others) don't think that it's unreasonable to assume that our players operate with common sense in our fantasy world (which is modeled in many ways after the real world). Some things are constant, like wet water and hot fire. We don't think that we're being jerks by making that assumption, and neither do our players - rather, we and our players expect that if a situation isn't covered by the rules, then it likely operates as it would in the real world.
We also believe that this was the intent of the designers by not documenting every single situation that the laws of physics in our games typically operate as they do in the real world.
I mean, is there anything in the rules about getting a sunburn? Didn't see anything in the SRD. It seems that by the mentality of some here, that the big bad tying the player to stakes in the desert and letting the sun and heat take care of the issue won't actually do anything, because the DM didn't caution them to buy some SPF 30 sunblock.
Anyhow, it's kinda moot. My group and I have a playstyle that we (and others) enjoy and others deride. Fine, whatever. I'll continue to play my games and be glad I'm not playing in some others.
I'll break out the example of the falling brick vs the brick thrown by an angry orc. If you go strictly by RAW and ignore common sense, the falling brick bypasses DR, while the thrown brick does not. My point? Sometimes the RAW need to be augmented by a dose of common sense.
Gah! I'm tired of hearing about "common sense." It's rarely as common as people think it is. What's more it's not the end all be all argument ender.
Common sense is also what told the majority that the world was flat for thousands of years.
The rules you refer to work perfectly fine as written. A thrown brick does damage and has to deal with DR because it is an attack (an attacker is deliberately aiming for the target's squishy bits). A falling brick does no damage whatsoever as it is a tiny sized object.
Only attacks have to deal with DR. Having something fall on you or falling off a cliff is not an attack. Such things do not bypass DR. Damage reduction never comes into play in the first place.
The rules only don't make sense if you don't understand them.
Common sense is also what told the majority that the world was flat for thousands of years.
And now it's common sense that the world is round.
I guess that must be wrong, too?
360 posts...
Why not rename this Tread = Why many player now chose Sorcerer over Wizard.
A falling brick does no damage whatsoever as it is a tiny sized object...Such things do not bypass DR. Damage reduction never comes into play in the first place.Spoken like a man who's never had a "tiny" object fall on his head.
I have. It hurts. I'm pretty sure I took at least 1d3 damage.
Just because you feel pain does not necessarily mean you've taken hit point damage. Sure a brick could kill someone in real life, however...
A falling brick will never kill any hero, as it shouldn't. To have one do so would be so mundane as to undermine the hero's status as, well, as a hero.
Now, a ton of bricks, or one thrown by a hated enemy might hurt or even kill a hero. Why? Because that's dramatic and fun. Dying because a peasant accidentally knocked a tiny potted plant off her balcony? Funny, but neither dramatic nor fun.
The rules reflect heroic fantasy quite well. If it doesn't make sense in the rules, the confusion (more often than not) stems out of simple ignorance.
Common sense is also what told the majority that the world was flat for thousands of years.And now it's common sense that the world is round.
I guess that must be wrong, too?
Actually it is. Most people today believe the world to be a more or less perfect sphere when it actually happens to be an ellipse.
360 posts...
Why not rename this Tread = Why many player now chose Sorcerer over Wizard.
Since the Pathfinder revamp, I know I'm certainly playing more sorcerers than wizards these days.
The Advanced Player's Guide made it even more viable and fun to play a sorcerer.
If something small landing on your head is 1d3 points of damage, I'm amazed we aren't living in some kind of horrible death world where people are just dropping like flies left and right.
I have, in fact, "looked those rules up," (subtle insult aside) and replacing a spellbook, or just the pages (spells) that were damaged, is not very difficult at all.
Lost spells temporarily is not what happens when you destroy your spellbook. If a "good player" embraces the "challenge" of their spellbook being destroyed and having to relearn spells - if they can (have you even looked those rules up?) - then you have confused a good player with a masochist.
Sure, if you immediately start copying down the spells you still have memorized.
The spells you DON'T have memorized requires the same effort as RELEARNING them. Neither of those let's you skip to significant gold cost of doing so.Having to develop new strategies because your "staple" spells are temporarily unavailable is a challenge that good players will embrace.
New strategies like hiding in a corner sucking your thumb.
The question is: Does water ruin your spellbook?The rules say nothing on the matter. They say neither yes nor no. This means the players are for all intents and purposes utterly ignorant and cannot infer on their own that water will damage their spellbook, as it's entirely dependent on a houserule.
Now, that doesn't mean you can never have water ruin a spellbook, but it does mean that if you decide it does and your players do not know that then you have set a Bad DM Trap for them;
(Chopped down the quote, hope that doesn't distort the content).
Just wanted to say that I agree to 100% with you, but add that it really depends on the group. If you're playing with strangers, say at a gaming convent, not telling them isn't okay. If you're playing with people you know that share your personal view of the game and how stuff works, in most circumstances it'll work out by itself; that also means, no player will see himself as targeted due to item destruction or rules based on your groups interpretation of "common sense" or the like.If a player actually gets upset or feels unfairly treated due to having items destroyed by such a thing, it's important not to wave it away because the simple fact that he feels cheated means, in this case, that he actually has been cheated to some degree.
But yes, yours was an excellent post that really summed up the topic very well.
tl;dr: +1
If something small landing on your head is 1d3 points of damage, I'm amazed we aren't living in some kind of horrible death world where people are just dropping like flies left and right.
Fortunately it's not that common to actually get a solid, "tiny" object in the head from a decent height, and also, 1d3 isn't even close to killing even a sickly (6 con) 1st level commoner if he gets help. The average commoner (10 con, 3hp) will be really hurt and should sit down and call the doctor, maybe even an ambulance, if hit by a brick falling from a roof if it hits him well.
Actually, 1d3 damage seems quite fitting IMO. This is of course house ruling, not saying anything else, but 1d3 damage from a "tiny" compact object from a 10ft height doesn't seem that far off. An old person might die from it if he doesn't get help.
I just saw a very disheartening post.
Guys! Stop it.
Really, just stop. If your only reason for posting is to insult someone, go away until you're not posting from anger. If you're tempted to indulge in hyperbole to express your point, understand that it will likely drag the discussion off topic.
Give us your wisdom. Share your experience. Bile and anger we already have enough of.
I just saw a very disheartening post.
Guys! Stop it.
Really, just stop. If your only reason for posting is to insult someone, go away until you're not posting from anger. If you're tempted to indulge in hyperbole to express your point, understand that it will likely drag the discussion off topic.
Give us your wisdom. Share your experience. Bile and anger we already have enough of.
You should flag those that contain personal insults. That is the method of dealing with it. Appeals to common decency (yes, I'm sure that the same people doing the insulting hold common decency to be as useless as common sense) are useless. Flag the offending posts, and let Paizo deal with it. Eventually, the persons posts will either be deleted, or perhaps he'll get a ban warning or something.
Appeals to common decency (yes, I'm sure that the same people doing the insulting hold common decency to be as useless as common sense)
I spy with my little eye another smarmy, out-of-context use of "common sense."
Actually it is. Most people today believe the world to be a more or less perfect sphere when it actually happens to be an ellipse.
Wow, really?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round
Round or rounds can mean:
The shape of a closed curve with no sharp corners, such as an ellipse, circle, rounded rectangle, or sphere
I didn't say "spherical", I said "round". People don't commonly claim "the earth is a perfect sphere", people claim "the earth is round".
I'm out. I've spoken my piece, and the opposition has no recourse save making personal attacks.
I removed some personal attacks. If you see it, flag it and move on. If you're posting it, step away from the computer and calm down for a few minutes.
I would say No.
If spell books did not need special inks, and time to scribe... my answer might be different, but as write i would say no.
Wizard already have enough of a weakness without moisture, and dunking in a pond.
(now ying/yang here): if a wizard goes diving underwater for more than 30 minutes then yes, there spell books are fair game, for being exploited, unless the wizard takes measures to protect vs water ((like bags of holding, water prof bags, Spell Bag ... aka Large wine skin made to hold a spell book.... which i would assume all wizard would have been give with the spell book.
Also, with the cost of inks, i would also assume a wizard would then lamination the page with bee wax ((Wax paper been around ages before plastic)). Like i said before more than 30 minutes of water at a time, and books fair game, but short term water damage can be prevented with some good old fashion bee's wax.
SO between bee's wax lamination & Wine skin.. Spell bags. Water should not be a problem.... plus then add Magic Protection and YAAAAAAA.
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Now Fire on the other hand is a wizard greatest Fear :) ... and power:)
Strange how that works out.
^ This
It makes you wonder if we're complaining enough that the staff at Pazio will nail this problem to the wall with a true fix, then publish it in Kobold Quarterly.Probably not, since Paizo doesn't publish said magazine.
When did the game lose the assumption that, with the exception of the fantasy, things operated like they did in the real world?
Considering there was a long sub-debate on how much water affected modern books, and older books.......
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If the cleric loses his holy symbol, is he immediately able to fashion a suitable replacement despite having no ranks in any appropriate craft and nothing to work with except a dead crab?
Depends; is he a cleric of Blibdoolpoolp?
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A falling brick will never kill any hero, as it shouldn't. To have one do so would be so mundane as to undermine the hero's status as, well, as a hero.
Now, a ton of bricks, or one thrown by a hated enemy might hurt or even kill a hero. Why? Because that's dramatic and fun. Dying because a peasant accidentally knocked a tiny potted plant off her balcony? Funny, but neither dramatic nor fun.
What about a wooden beam?
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When a spellbook is dunked in water, is it compromised in any way? Should some spells be inaccessible? Can it be fixed?
Depends. Are they a fire elementalist? Make a Fortitude save or take Constitution damage, pyro!
Are they a water elementalist? All of today's prepared spells get free metamagic, you lucky guy!
/trolling
Okay. I've got this link after my new player's arcanist was literally drowing in water during adventure, for quite decent amount of time, and then dragged to safety by comrades. I got really few things to say, after I read whole thread:
Waterproof bag 5sp
Book Ward spell (level 2 sorcerer/wizard spell)Be honest with yourself, and start to play character with 18+ Intelligence accordingly.
Prestidigitation will dry the pages, but writings will be lost, as inks are delicate, and focusing diagrams needs to be perfect. So remember the scout song and "Be prepared!".
P.S. When I play a witch, I buy spellbook. Why? Because I ask NPC wizards to copy some of my spells there for some fee. So later, in case my familiar die and ressurection is not an option, new familiar can be taught some of rare spells from my previous reperoir with scheme: show spellbook to wizard>>ask him make scrolls>>feed them to new familiar. Witch has 18+ Intelligence. She is smart enough to do such precaution, as 2 spells per level for brand new familiar is ridiculos.
A lot of items are "flavor" items. You still have not produced any specific rules that say how water affects a spell book. Does it need to soaked? Does it only take being in the rain for 3 seconds? etc etc
I agree that if the book is submerged for a long time it makes sense that it should be damaged to some extent, but I won't pretend like I have seen rules for it when I have not. If rules have come out then quote them. Even if there are new rules out, I doubt there were any when this thread was made.
Actually it appears there are rules for swimming wizards now. Not sure when the waterproof bag was added to the game but this is what happens if you have one:
"Items kept inside remain relatively dry, making the bag ideal for carrying maps, scrolls, spellbooks, and the like, although the bag is not impervious and can only be completely immersed for 10 rounds before enough water seeps in to ruin such items."
So now we know that spell book inks are not waterproof.
Anyone else vaguely remember something about spellbooks having pages made of some form of metal in some setting somewhere?
Something in 3.5, Complete Arcane, or something like it, had alternate spell books made from metal and such that enhanced certain properties. My Wu Jen for Savage Tide utilized a thin copper spellbook if I recall right.
Also, if I recall right, the old flavor rules seemed to indicate that when the wizard transcribes a spell into their book, it is with specialized mixture of ink and gemstones, which is why it was so costly to write spells into your book. The side effect though, was that it was preserved from stuff like immersion in water. That could have been a house rule though ... it was too long ago. :)
So now the first spells cast between wizards in a duel is Drench?
Seems sort of ridiculous (and incredibly lame). The spellbook is a magic item, its not going to be destroyed by getting soaked. If you are going to go after the wizards spellbook at least make sure its interesting-a thief lifts it off him and scurries away to fence it, The Barbarian charges the wizard and sunders his spellbook, etc.
Playing gotcha with the Wizard every time theres a drizzle or he takes a dip isn't challenging, its dumb, and lame. Thats like the kind of DMing where you make the fighter role an intelligence check at every door to determine if it opens in or out, its annoying at best. It certainly doesn't feel like an epic adventure or challenge, just a nuisance.
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If the fighter gets knocked into some water, has to make swim checks and ends up treading water for 3 rounds, only to be dragged out onto the sodden banks of a river in a rainstorm, are his armor, shield, or weapons damaged? Maybe there's some rust issues, or a broken strap from the strain of the current, or the wooden bits get warped? No; their tools are fine but if the ogre targets those with a Sunder, that's epic.
In my games its the same with a spellbook.
If my spell book is not actively being used it's waterproofed. Either in a waterproof bag at low levels or in an extra dimensional bag.
Pathfinder pouch is 1000 GP. It locks away your spell book where in one cannot even access the opening until you want it to be. It's always an early purchase with my mages. Plus fewer considerations about size.
Fighters take time to maintain their weapons between battles. A wizard who can't be bothered to put the basic protection of putting his spellbook in a waterproof, or at least water-resistant bag, has only himself to blame.So now the first spells cast between wizards in a duel is Drench?
Seems sort of ridiculous (and incredibly lame). The spellbook is a magic item, its not going to be destroyed by getting soaked. If you are going to go after the wizards spellbook at least make sure its interesting-a thief lifts it off him and scurries away to fence it, The Barbarian charges the wizard and sunders his spellbook, etc.
Playing gotcha with the Wizard every time theres a drizzle or he takes a dip isn't challenging, its dumb, and lame. Thats like the kind of DMing where you make the fighter role an intelligence check at every door to determine if it opens in or out, its annoying at best. It certainly doesn't feel like an epic adventure or challenge, just a nuisance.
You are missing the point. This isn't about running a realism simulator. Its about running an epic fantasy, having your spellbook ruined because its raining isn't epic, its lame and boring.
If you want to run a 'gear maintenance simulator' thats on you, I'm running an adventure, I'll let the players decide how in depth they want to manage their gear.
My answer to the original question:
Yes, if the book isn't waterproofed. No assumptions are made one way or the other, it is the players responsibility to safeguard the characters gear, NOT the GMs.
Basic maintenance like sharpening weapons/eating/pooping/checking book bindings is assumed.
Rustproofing weapons/armor has rules that allow for it, it is not assumed.
One could infer, then, that you can/should take measures to protect your book.
Being a computer nerd, data backup is a good idea. Wizards are the nerds of the game. They should have backups, and protect their books.
So.
Does getting a spellbook wet ruin it? No, not if it is waterproof.
Does getting a spellbook wet ruin it? Yes, if it is not waterproof.
If my spell book is not actively being used it's waterproofed. Either in a waterproof bag at low levels or in an extra dimensional bag.
Pathfinder pouch is 1000 GP. It locks away your spell book where in one cannot even access the opening until you want it to be. It's always an early purchase with my mages. Plus fewer considerations about size.
From a players perspective thats great. When I play a character I manage everything to the finest detail, and I will call myself out if something is likely to fail me or cause a problem.
As a DM I allow the players to determine the level of gear management they find fun for themselves. I run the adventure, they run the characters.
Just to expand on this notion, if you destroy spellbooks with water, how would they ever survive a duel between two wizards? They are hitting each other with fireballs and lightning bolts (or basically any other battle for that matter). If you rule that the book needs to be sealed away in a waterproof bag how does the wizard ever cast water breathing in a tight moment?
If you know you have a "dick dm" then always cast Book Ward every few days. Or if you're super paranoid just enchant your book to cast it 1/d.
Custom magic item:
Protective bookmark
Creates an effect identical to book ward for any book it's placed within.
CL3 X 2000 X 2 Spell level = 12,000 X .2 (1/d) = 2400 Market or 1200 to make.
Mechanically it casts book ward once per day automatically for any book it's placed in. That ward lasts three days. If you're fastidious you could theoretically keep three books so warded.
I would argue that an initial investment of a few gold would be enough to make a basic waterproof wrapping of some sort...
As you increase in level, make more elaborate containers... I find micromanaging gear to be rather entertaining, we even keep track of stuff like soap (yep, I mean come on, adventuring for a month without having soap? You gonna be STANKY when you get back to town, son!).
I doubt I would go to the elaborate measures Tiny Coffee Golem mentions, though that looks pretty awesome...
Every once in a while, it is appropriate for a GM to do something like have fairies steal a fighters sword, or have thieves try to make off with the wizards book...
It shouldn't be an everyday thing, and it shouldn't be a major event, just a little reminder that gear exists and can be taken away... just cause it is written on your character sheet doesn't mean it's safe.
Every now and then i will ask a player for his character sheet, after rolling for Perception/Slight of Hand... assuming the pickpocket succeeded, I will remove something believable and minor from their sheet (a few gold, maybe something from their belt like a potion or dagger).
It's really fun when they CATCH the pickpocket attempt... I mean, level 19 PCs going all psycho on a 12 year old girl in the middle of town? Riiiiight...
Okay. I've got this link after my new player's arcanist was literally drowing in water during adventure, for quite decent amount of time, and then dragged to safety by comrades. I got really few things to say, after I read whole thread:
Waterproof bag 5sp
Book Ward spell (level 2 sorcerer/wizard spell)Be honest with yourself, and start to play character with 18+ Intelligence accordingly.
Prestidigitation will dry the pages, but writings will be lost, as inks are delicate, and focusing diagrams needs to be perfect. So remember the scout song and "Be prepared!".
P.S. When I play a witch, I buy spellbook. Why? Because I ask NPC wizards to copy some of my spells there for some fee. So later, in case my familiar die and ressurection is not an option, new familiar can be taught some of rare spells from my previous reperoir with scheme: show spellbook to wizard>>ask him make scrolls>>feed them to new familiar. Witch has 18+ Intelligence. She is smart enough to do such precaution, as 2 spells per level for brand new familiar is ridiculos.
A lot of items are "flavor" items. You still have not produced any specific rules that say how water affects a spell book. Does it need to soaked? Does it only take being in the rain for 3 seconds? etc etc
I agree that if the book is submerged for a long time it makes sense that it should be damaged to some extent, but I won't pretend like I have seen rules for it when I have not. If rules have come out then quote them. Even if there are new rules out, I doubt there were any when this thread was made.
I have Book Ward spell in front of me. And I think of Cicero. Why so? Because "existance of an exception is proving that there is a rule for which this exception was made."
Cicero used that as defining argument in court. And he won.
This spell specifies that it is making object immune to acid and fire(as via protection from energy) and making it waterproof. We know what particular book developers...
I'm not clear on why anyone thought that a spell book was anything other than paper with magical writing. Unless you do something specific to make it so why would it be anything other than a book?
If the spellbook did get damaged by being soaked in water, why wouldn't a mending spell fix it?
...Okay. I've got this link after my new player's arcanist was literally drowing in water during adventure, for quite decent amount of time, and then dragged to safety by comrades. I got really few things to say, after I read whole thread:
Waterproof bag 5sp
Book Ward spell (level 2 sorcerer/wizard spell)Be honest with yourself, and start to play character with 18+ Intelligence accordingly.
Prestidigitation will dry the pages, but writings will be lost, as inks are delicate, and focusing diagrams needs to be perfect. So remember the scout song and "Be prepared!".
P.S. When I play a witch, I buy spellbook. Why? Because I ask NPC wizards to copy some of my spells there for some fee. So later, in case my familiar die and ressurection is not an option, new familiar can be taught some of rare spells from my previous reperoir with scheme: show spellbook to wizard>>ask him make scrolls>>feed them to new familiar. Witch has 18+ Intelligence. She is smart enough to do such precaution, as 2 spells per level for brand new familiar is ridiculos.
A lot of items are "flavor" items. You still have not produced any specific rules that say how water affects a spell book. Does it need to soaked? Does it only take being in the rain for 3 seconds? etc etc
I agree that if the book is submerged for a long time it makes sense that it should be damaged to some extent, but I won't pretend like I have seen rules for it when I have not. If rules have come out then quote them. Even if there are new rules out, I doubt there were any when this thread was made.
I have Book Ward spell in front of me. And I think of Cicero. Why so? Because "existance of an exception is proving that there is a rule for which this exception was made."
Cicero used that as defining argument in court. And he won.
This spell specifies that it is making object immune to acid and fire(as via protection from energy) and making it waterproof. We know what
In older editions it was pretty clear that spellbooks were a bit more than just a book.