Okay, so discussion in another thread sort of poked an idea that I've had for a while and now it prompted me to actually do something about it.
For several, varied reasons I've been wanting to try and compare some different salary levels between the U.S. and my own country, Denmark, just in a fairly non-scientific, curious and casual way.
I do need to know what would yield the best results before I jump into the comparison itself, so I need to ask you people something first:
What figure would yield the best comparison, salary before taxes or after taxes?
Seeing how the tax burden is rather different between the two countries, I'd guess before taxes. However, the numbers I have access to are mostly after taxes, so that would be easier for me to put up.
What I ultimately want to know, when I put the numbers up, is what "category" the various salary levels would be classified as (in the U.S.) and I'd love examples of what kind of job in the U.S. you'd have to make the various salaries (later on I might disclose what the Danish people who make the individual salaries actually do ;-) ).
So, first of all, before or after tax numbers?
So, first of all, before or after tax numbers?
Depends on your reason for wanting to do a comparison. I'd say before, unless you're trying to do some sort of measure of government efficiency or tax burden, in which case you'd probably want after. Or both, if that's an option.
So, first of all, before or after tax numbers?Depends on your reason for wanting to do a comparison. I'd say before, unless you're trying to do some sort of measure of government efficiency or tax burden, in which case you'd probably want after. Or both, if that's an option.
Not really interested in the tax burden as such.
To be honest, I'm just curious about some of the salaries some of my friends and I have or have had at various points in our life and where we'd fall in the labour spectrum if we'd made the same amount/had the same amount available in the U.S. (trust me, it's not because I'm going to throw out some high salaries and then brag about it ;-) ).
Okay, so here are the actual numbers.
Where and how would you rate the following salaries (dirt poor, low income, middle class, upper middle class etc.) and what would be some examples of jobs where you would make a salary like this?
All numbers are before taxes, monthly pay, conversion rate is taken from here and is (at time of this writing):
$1 = DKK 5.45.
Salary 1:
$1,493.40
Salary 2:
$1,808.62
Salary 3:
$2,988.07
Salary 4:
$5,445.87
Salary 5:
7,706.42
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You want to look at after tax (net income).
You have to focus your geographic areas: Where in the US vrs Where in Denmark. That is huge. For example $60k is nothing in NYC, but very nice in rural Tennessee, US.
Also factor in cost of Living. For example, I can milk at the store near where I live in Pennsylvania for about $2-ish. That same milk might Cost over $5 in Alaska.
You want to look at after tax (net income).You have to focus your geographic areas: Where in the US vrs Where in Denmark. That is huge. For example $60k is nothing in NYC, but very nice in rural Tennessee, US.
Also factor in cost of Living. For example, I can milk at the store near where I live in Pennsylvania for about $2-ish. That same milk might Cost over $5 in Alaska.
The difficulties with net income is, of course, the large tax disparity between the U.S. and Denmark (one of the most heavily taxed countries in the world), but yes, it would probably also give the best indication of actual buying power (even though, as you say, prices might differ from state to state too).
I was thinking that maybe someone would factor in where they live, so e.g. salary #4 would be what someone doing X would make here in Y city/state - i.e. base it on one's personal experience/knowledge.Day to day buying power wouldn't really fluctuate here in Denmark (we're not that big a country and basically have the same stores/chains all over the country), although some other living expenses would (rent, depending on geography, could vary immensely).
So, would after tax amounts be a better gauge for comparison?
Again, just trying to get a very general idea about how the different salary groups compare.
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After tax seems like a way better way to do this. Also keep in mind that in the US there is not a difference between states as much as there is between regions. New York City will be way different than the Finger Lakes region for example. In the example salaries you give, are they weekly, or monthly or...?
After tax seems like a way better way to do this. Also keep in mind that in the US there is not a difference between states as much as there is between regions. New York City will be way different than the Finger Lakes region for example. In the example salaries you give, are they weekly, or monthly or...?
They are monthly. Most sites where you have to list income it seems to be on a yearly basis. So I'll just do some calculations and post some after tax, yearly figures.
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One other thing I think might be missing is an objective measure. I am certain I have worked for people with a household income several times your highest number and they called themselves middle-class, though with a boat, multiple foreign vacations, multiple cars, several large homes in destination areas they were much better off.
Could you put some parameters around these things?
For example, even with the crumble of the housing markets locally I think it would be a stretch for someone with salary one or 2 to own a home.
I would put them as lower middle class. Even the lowest salary locally would be able to have some luxuries, though they would be few and carefully planned. Your lowest salary range is not low enough to capture entry level unskilled work. (ie fast food, retail etc...) It would be more in the range of unskilled/semi-skilled laborer. (ie driver, warehouse worker, lawn care) People at this range rent an apartment. They have a fairly older less reliable car. A single reversal is catastrophic (ie job loss or sickness)
Salary 3 I would say is the start of middle class, and though they are not without worry, they are also getting by with care. They may or may not own a small home. They have a reliable car though it is several years old. They have more fat in the budget and can choose luxury items somewhat regularly (movies or shows, brand name clothes, annual vacation away from home, meals out are all available regularly, but they could not all be selected. Likely they are chosen carefully.) A reversal would be scary but survivable if it was prepared for. At this income it is possible to have some money set aside for a rainy day and also for retirement. At this salary you might be an entry level civil servant, or entry level for most professional tracks that require a 4 year college degree.
At salary 4 you could have a small to medium home. You likely have a couple cars and you can choose luxuries as listed above with regularity and additionally may be considering private education for your children and more elaborate vacations. At this income it is likely to have some money set aside for a rainy day and also for retirement. This is a managers salary, or a skilled tradesperson salary, or entry into nursing or the like.
At salary 5 you can have a medium home and several cars. You likely have most of the advantages listed above, but all to a larger scale. You are comfortable and if careful you do not frequent consider money. You are solidly middle class and achieve this with a specialized tradesperson job, or upper levels of most professional fields. This also where some executives start though often thier compensation is much higher.
Keep in mind that this is for SouthEast New England and counts on after tax numbers. Is this helpful?
One major point of difference between the U.S. and Europe is that in the U.S., health care costs are generally employer-assisted, but not totally covered, and that (aside from Social Security, which most people here will probably not ever collect from), there are usually no retirement benefits included in the U.S. (except government jobs).
A reasonable comparison, then, would be:
[vs.]
One other thing I think might be missing is an objective measure. I am certain I have worked for people with a household income several times your highest number and they called themselves middle-class, though with a boat, multiple foreign vacations, multiple cars, several large homes in destination areas they were much better off.
Could you put some parameters around these things?
For example, even with the crumble of the housing markets locally I think it would be a stretch for someone with salary one or 2 to own a home.
Objective measures are always difficult to set up, unless there are some actual e.g. government "boxes" where you can put people into. So I'm basically looking for personal opinions, e.g. "I make something along the line of salary 4, I'd probably consider myself mid-middle class, and I do X for a living" or something along those lines.
If more people chime in it might also be interesting to see where they would put the various salaries depending on where they are from.Is this helpful?
Very much so! Thanks for setting it up like that. :-)
One major point of difference between the U.S. and Europe is that in the U.S., health care costs are generally employer-assisted, but not totally covered, and that (aside from Social Security, which most people here will probably not ever collect from), there are usually no retirement benefits included in the U.S. (except government jobs).
A reasonable comparison, then, would be:
U.S.: gross salary minus taxes, minus health care costs, minus retirement savings = disposable income. [vs.]
Europe: Net salary = disposable income.
Good point Kirth!
I'm still working on the after tax Danish salaries, stay tuned!
Okay, these are the numbers AFTER taxes (monthly - yearly):
Salary 1:
$1,358.58 - $16,302.96
Salary 2:
$1,353.72 - $16,244.64
Salary 3:
$2,073.18 - $24,878.16
Salary 4:
$3,679.78 - $44,157.36
Salary 5:
$5,058.72 - $60,704.64
Yes, I know salary 1 and 2 look kinky compared to the numbers above, but there's a reason for that. ;-)
My comparisons are BEFORE tax:
Salary 1:
$1,493.40 * 12 = 17,920
-> barely making it; almost the poverty level
Salary 2:
$1,808.62 * 12 = 21,703
-> lower class
Salary 3:
$2,988.07 * 12 = 35,856
-> upper, lower class
Salary 4:
$5,445.87 * 12 = 65,350
-> lower, middle class
Salary 5:
7,706.42 * 12 = 92,477.04
-> middle, middle class
Okay, these are the numbers AFTER taxes (monthly - yearly):
Salary 1:
$1,358.58 - $16,302.96Salary 2:
$1,353.72 - $16,244.64Salary 3:
$2,073.18 - $24,878.16Salary 4:
$3,679.78 - $44,157.36Salary 5:
$5,058.72 - $60,704.64Yes, I know salary 1 and 2 look kinky compared to the numbers above, but there's a reason for that. ;-)
That is all.
** spoiler omitted **
That is all.
My comparisons are BEFORE tax:
Salary 1:
$1,493.40 * 12 = 17,920-> barely making it; almost the poverty level
Salary 2:
$1,808.62 * 12 = 21,703-> lower class
Salary 3:
$2,988.07 * 12 = 35,856-> upper, lower class
Salary 4:
$5,445.87 * 12 = 65,350-> lower, middle class
Salary 5:
7,706.42 * 12 = 92,477.04-> middle, middle class
Thanks!
Are those what you would call general observations or personal experience from your area?I'm asking since they seem a slight bump downward from Sigil's observations above. :-)
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Thanks!
Are those what you would call general observations or personal experience from your area?
I'm asking since they seem a slight bump downward from Sigil's observations above. :-)
Take my classification as pretty solid. I used to be a pension actuary.
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
That is all.
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Thanks!
Are those what you would call general observations or personal experience from your area?
I'm asking since they seem a slight bump downward from Sigil's observations above. :-)Take my classification as pretty solid. I used to be a pension actuary.
GM, Well Met! I do not have any exams yet. I work on the P&C side of the house. I trust your numbers more than mine too. :) The only think I question is your flat tax rate.
GG, one other thing to stir this is that some locations in the US have state income tax and other do not.
Okay, so I've let it sit for a week in case anyone else wanted to contribute anything. Time to fess up to what the salaries are actually from.
I'd still love to hear if these compare to similar employment in your area or not.
Salary 1:
College student, 25+ years of age.
Student Aid + Student loan (loan is tax free, aid isn't).
After graduating the loan has a fairly low interest... between 4-5% I think it's at. Student aid is available for all students of age 18+ (between 18 and 25 it's dependent on your parents' income if you live at home).
Salary 2:
Unemployment benefits, single, no kids, 25+ years of age.
You'd get more if you have kids, less if you live with someone with a "regular" income.
(this is my own current category)
Salary 3:
Social Security Disability Insurance/Incapacity Benefit
(if the city gets the gears moving fast enough, what I'll receive from January onwards)
Salary 4:
Starting salary for High School educators.
Requires a Master's degree (a major and a minor which is applicable to teaching at High School - e.g. a friend of mine majored in English and minored in History).
The Danish school system is slightly different from the U.S. one. High School is a separate unit, generally comparable to 11th-13th grade (you can also attend a more business oriented High School or a vocational school). According to the Danish government student aid page, you generally can't get it for the first year if you attend an American college, since this is already covered by the last year of Danish High School.
Salary 5:
Freelance Television Editor. Mostly doing promos and similar stuff.
This is just the basis salary for a 37 hour work week. I know my friend who has the job often works much more than that.
Okay, so I've let it sit for a week in case anyone else wanted to contribute anything. Time to fess up to what the salaries are actually from.
I'd still love to hear if these compare to similar employment in your area or not.Salary 1:
College student, 25+ years of age.
Student Aid + Student loan (loan is tax free, aid isn't).
After graduating the loan has a fairly low interest... between 4-5% I think it's at. Student aid is available for all students of age 18+ (between 18 and 25 it's dependent on your parents' income if you live at home).Salary 2:
Unemployment benefits, single, no kids, 25+ years of age.
You'd get more if you have kids, less if you live with someone with a "regular" income.
(this is my own current category)Salary 3:
Social Security Disability Insurance/Incapacity Benefit
(if the city gets the gears moving fast enough, what I'll receive from January onwards)Salary 4:
Starting salary for High School educators.
Requires a Master's degree (a major and a minor which is applicable to teaching at High School - e.g. a friend of mine majored in English and minored in History).
The Danish school system is slightly different from the U.S. one. High School is a separate unit, generally comparable to 11th-13th grade (you can also attend a more business oriented High School or a vocational school). According to the Danish government student aid page, you generally can't get it for the first year if you attend an American college, since this is already covered by the last year of Danish High School.Salary 5:
Freelance Television Editor. Mostly doing promos and similar stuff.
This is just the basis salary for a 37 hour work week. I know my friend who has the job often works much more than that.
They really do not. High school educators in the U.S. start at barely above Salary 2. I myself am a lawyer (where you need a J.D., and can rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in educational debt) and barely make above Salary 3 - this after two years of experience. (Of course, I'm not in private practice, and my state is one of the lowest paying for my field in the nation. If I were in Arizona, I'd be way past Salary 5, for example.)
Salary 3 is about the median starting salary for most professions in most U.S. cities (again, whatever that's worth to you.) Which is why most families need to combine income in order to get to the 90k - 100k considered "middle middle" class by Grand Magus.
Salary 4 is the starting salary for most engineering or tech jobs. Salary 5s are your more prestigious starting jobs - business managers, private (big firm) lawyers, doctors (on average).
Edit: And disability/social security benefits hovers around 20,000 - so Salary 2 in your chart is closest. And recall that, for the most part, this is BEFORE health care expenditures.
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In my line of work (Bartending), we are...a bit reticent to mention specifics (See also cab Drivers, and strippers..we all react the same way) when somebody wants hard/fast numbers on our income.
However, there is a bartender that I know who has graciously allowed us to use him as a hypothetical example (ahem).
We shall call him...Tim?
Tim works an average of 25 hours a week (Aprox 3 shifts,bartenders don't usually do full time, at least in Clubs. The neighborhood bar guy is a different breed...and usually a lot less happy about his job).
Official Pay is just under 10 $/Hr. So...Aprox 1000/month
Tim also draws in 150-400 per shift in Tips, which he declares 100% (Of course!) Average of about a 600-1200 a week, give or take. So...
Variance is about 1000 a week.
So, 4500-5500 a Month or so, all declared...Ahem.
If, say, some bartender were to factor out the legally required amount (8.5% of our sales) as Taxes, and add in the rest, that leaves a lot of leftover cash... It figures more like an 'official' Salary closer to 80K, rather than 60, so says a Taxman that Tim knows...and this for a 'part-time' job.
Tim has a lot of time to game, BBQ and check out these Forums...
-Uriel-393 (Not Tim)
Here in the UK I work a 35 hour week and pull in the equivilant of about $45K before tax..my tota; deductions are abot 32% of gross including pension taxes and Natonal Insurance.
I wish I had Tim's job...
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Here in the Uk I work a 35 hour week and pulling the equivilant of about $45K.
I wish I had Tim's job...
Tim also lays out just around 2000 a month for rent,bills... and lives in a city with no parking, so he cabs a lot. He wasn't bragging, just throwing his numbers (sort of...Ahem) in there.
I'm sure that there is at least one Millionaire on here who would snicker at Tim's numbers. However, Tim is juggling a couple of girls half his age, so Yeah... Not a horrible job. (THAT part was the bragging...).-Uriel
Salary 4:
Starting salary for High School educators.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
My 1st high school teaching job here in the U.S. started at $19,000/year, before taxes. That's with a bachelor's degree (halfway to a master's degree) in the relevant subject matter, and full professional licensure. Full courseload, plus clubs and activities to sponsor. It worked out to about $10/hour (again, before taxes). Granted, health care was covered, so if you factor that in (call it $250/month for the sake of argument), it would have been $22,000/year (and a LOT less after state & federal taxes).I'm in a much more lucrative career now.
Here in the Uk I work a 35 hour week and pulling the equivilant of about $45K.
I wish I had Tim's job...
Tim also lays out just around 2000 a month for rent,bills... and lives in a city with no parking, so he cabs a lot. He wasn't bragging, just throwing his numbers (sort of...Ahem) in there.
I'm sure that there is at least one Millionaire on here who would snicker at Tim's numbers. However, Tim is juggling a couple of girls half his age, so Yeah... Not a horrible job. (THAT part was the bragging...).-Uriel
Physically I'd probably be more fitting as the bouncer at said club. I'm sure (hope?) the base salary would be higher, but I doubt they get any tips. ;-)
Salary 4:
Starting salary for High School educators.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
My 1st high school teaching job here in the U.S. started at $19,000/year, before taxes. That's with a bachelor's degree (halfway to a master's degree) in the relevant subject matter, and full professional licensure. Full courseload, plus clubs and activities to sponsor. It worked out to about $10/hour (again, before taxes). Granted, health care was covered, so if you factor that in (call it $250/month for the sake of argument), it would have been $22,000/year (and a LOT less after state & federal taxes).I'm in a much more lucrative career now.
That's another interesting comparison. With only a bachelor you basically can't use it for anything over here, you'd have to get a Master's degree, whereas I've seen a lot of people enter the job market with just a bachelor in the U.S.
Granted, there are other 2-4 year educations you could take, but they'd qualify more as "vocational" degrees (graphic artists, multimedia designers etc.) not bachelor degrees.|
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Physically I'd probably be more fitting as the bouncer at said club. I'm sure (hope?) the base salary would be higher, but I doubt they get any tips. ;-)Here in the Uk I work a 35 hour week and pulling the equivilant of about $45K.
I wish I had Tim's job...
Tim also lays out just around 2000 a month for rent,bills... and lives in a city with no parking, so he cabs a lot. He wasn't bragging, just throwing his numbers (sort of...Ahem) in there.
I'm sure that there is at least one Millionaire on here who would snicker at Tim's numbers. However, Tim is juggling a couple of girls half his age, so Yeah... Not a horrible job. (THAT part was the bragging...).-Uriel
They make between 12 and 22 or so an hour, most closer to 12, unfortunately. They don't get tips, but I do bring them giant bags fried chicken at our daytime events (I have a Popeye's Chicken in my neighborhood).
Physically I'd probably be more fitting as the bouncer at said club. I'm sure (hope?) the base salary would be higher, but I doubt they get any tips. ;-)Here in the Uk I work a 35 hour week and pulling the equivilant of about $45K.
I wish I had Tim's job...
Tim also lays out just around 2000 a month for rent,bills... and lives in a city with no parking, so he cabs a lot. He wasn't bragging, just throwing his numbers (sort of...Ahem) in there.
I'm sure that there is at least one Millionaire on here who would snicker at Tim's numbers. However, Tim is juggling a couple of girls half his age, so Yeah... Not a horrible job. (THAT part was the bragging...).-Uriel
What? Have you not played and D&D? Once you knock them out you take everything they had on them - even their clothes and then you sell it.
