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I have a monk and I was looking at the trip feats.
If I use the Greater Trip feat it says when I successfully trip a foe, that foe provokes an AoO. Now do I get to take advantage that opportunity and immediately fire off an AoO attack? Or is the provoked AoO only available to my adjacent comrades?
If this has been covered somewhere else, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks!
I have a monk and I was looking at the trip feats.
If I use the Greater Trip feat it says when I successfully trip a foe, that foe provokes an AoO. Now do I get to take advantage that opportunity and immediately fire off an AoO attack? Or is the provoked AoO only available to my adjacent comrades?
If this has been covered somewhere else, please point me in the right direction.
Thanks!
The tripper gets the extra attack. It is basically the Improved Trip from 3.5.
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The tripper gets the extra attack.
Just to clarify, everyone threatening the foe gets to make an attack of opportunity. Including, but not limited to, the tripper.
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The tripper gets the extra attack.Just to clarify, everyone threatening the foe gets to make an attack of opportunity. Including, but not limited to, the tripper.
No, the tripper only. Man that is a badly written feat. I will hit the FAQ button to see if it can get cleaned up.
The tripper gets the extra attack.Just to clarify, everyone threatening the foe gets to make an attack of opportunity. Including, but not limited to, the tripper.
+1 to this. That's exactly how it is written.
+1 to this. That's exactly how it is written.The tripper gets the extra attack.Just to clarify, everyone threatening the foe gets to make an attack of opportunity. Including, but not limited to, the tripper.
This was my interpretation too. take a look to other "greater" feats like greater bull rush to compare. In that case, only allies get the AOO.
In the case of GT, the tripper gets the AOO too. This is what makes the feat overall better than 3.5 - you need two feats to get the AOO, but if you play it smart, a single trip can be very dangerous for the target.
The tripper gets the extra attack.Just to clarify, everyone threatening the foe gets to make an attack of opportunity. Including, but not limited to, the tripper.
I don't agree, but then again if you get yourself surrounded it makes it hard for me to feel sorry for you.
Everybody that threatens the creature being greater tripped gets an AoO.
Here is the harder question, if the tripper also has improved Ki Throw and throws the creature from one side to the other, it looks like creatures that threaten any square the creature is thrown through will get an AoO.
A creature with 10' reach improved Ki throw and greater trips another creature and takes it from its starting square and throws it to the other side 4 squares away so any creature threatning any of those squares would get an AoO!
This is the current monk build I am using in my home campaign, only 4th level won't get this goodness till 9th though, but I am looking foward to tossing the mobs around.
"here rogue stab this one, on then this one, now how about this one." hahahaha
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Everybody that threatens the creature being greater tripped gets an AoO.<<<Thread Necro-Ressurection in effect>>>
Greater Trip (Combat)
You can make free attacks on foes that knock down.
Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.
In this particular case, Paizo's famously nebulous grammar in the Benefit section is explicitly nailed down in the description section.
Only the person with the feat gets the freebie.
(The fact that the feat Vicious Stomp even exists is a further strong hint that assorted standers-by are not entitled to AoOs -- because otherwise they wouldn't need it.)
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You can make free attacks on foes that knock down.
Without the "You" that would mean everyone who had the feat gets an AoO.
The actual rule says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
This is far more clear. The opponent provokes attacks of opportunity. Attacks plural, which could not be the case if it only provoked from the tripper.
Further, this interpretation doesn't conflict with the fluff text, as the tripper DOES get to make a free attack on a foe he knocked down.
Your interpretation means the fluff is correct, but the rule is wrong. My interpretation means both are correct.
The fact that the feat Vicious Stomp even exists is a further strong hint that assorted standers-by are not entitled to AoOs -- because otherwise they wouldn't need it.
Unrelated. With Vicious Stomp you get an unarmed strike AoO any time someone adjacent falls prone for any reason, ice, balance, normal trips, grease, etc.
With Greater Trip, you can use any weapon you like, from any distance away (providing you threaten).
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The actual rule says "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
This is far more clear.
Q. What is an "opponent"?
A. It is a person, creature (etc) in a defined relationship vis-a-vis you.
Your interpretation means the fluff is correct, but the rule is wrong. My interpretation means both are correct.
What you are claiming is the following:
That:
You can make free attacks on foes that you (trip).
...is logically equivalent to...
You can make free attacks on foes that anybody (trips).
...and that the latter is what Paizo actually meant even though they wrote the former instead of the latter.
What you are claiming is the following:
That:
You can make free attacks on foes that you (trip).
...is logically equivalent to...
You can make free attacks on foes that anybody (trips).
No, because that would only apply to people who have the feat.
What I'm claiming is:
that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity
means exactly what it says, and not:
that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you
Which has a bunch of extra words that are not in the feat that would limit the ability.
-edit- you're confused as to what we're saying.
We are not saying that anyone with Greater Trip can smack anyone who gets tripped.
Rather, anyone who gets tripped by someone with the feat provokes from anyone who threatens them. Noone gets to hit someone who just falls because they're clumsy, or gets tripped by someone without GTrip.
TripMonk (who has the feat) trips an orc. Everyone around the orc can whack it.
WizardGuy (without feat) trips a goblin. Even though TripMonk is standing there, he doesn't get to hit the goblin for free.
The creature only provokes when tripped by someone with Greater Trip.
Q. What is an "opponent"?
A. It is a person, creature (etc) in a defined relationship vis-a-vis you.
I didn't address this because I don't see how it's relevant.
The thing you trip provokes.
A thing you don't trip doesn't provoke.
A thing someone else (who doesn't have the feat) trips, doesn't provoke.
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Let's try this again:
What you are claiming is the following:
That:
You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
...is logically equivalent to...
Everybody can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
...and that the latter is what Paizo actually meant even though they wrote the former instead of the latter.
...and that the latter is what Paizo actually meant even though they wrote the former instead of the latter.
Both the fluff and the rule are correct.
You can make free attacks on foes you knock down. Because opponents you trip provoke attacks of opportunity.
The fluff does not contradict what happens. You trip a guy, he provokes.
Casting a spell provokes attacks of opportunity.
Drinking a potion provokes attacks of opportunity.
Being greater tripped provokes attacks of opportunity.
Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack.
Initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
See how those last two specify that you only provoke from one person? And see how Greater Trip doesn't say that?
Look at the way they changed the language for publication.
Old Version: "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity."
New Version: "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
It was specifically changed to make it plural, instead of singular. Clearly, the intent is that more than one AoO can be made, which is only possible if the person being greater tripped provokes from everyone who threatens him, and not just the person who tripped him.
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I'm still not seeing anyone make a rational argument that Paizo intended to write:
Everybody can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
...when they instead wrote: You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
Look at the way they changed the language for publication.
Old Version: "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity."
New Version: "Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity."
It was specifically changed to make it plural, instead of singular. Clearly, the intent is that more than one AoO can be made, which is only possible if the person being greater tripped provokes from everyone who threatens him, and not just the person who tripped him.
I'm looking at you write the words "specifically changed" and "Clearly, the intent" as if you were absolutely sure of developer aim upon the basis of that thread. Then I go to the thread and see that nothing is resolved whatsoever, with the very question being pointedly asked and discussed across several pages, with no definitive response from the developers.
But a few pages into the thread, someone made a very illuminating comparison with a similar BAB6-required "Greater" combat-maneuver feat:
Greater Bull Rush (Combat)
Your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Bull Rush. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Trip, Greater lacks any such text.
I'm still not seeing anyone make a rational argument that Paizo intended to write:
Everybody can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
...when they instead wrote: You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
You're the one stating that what they intended is any different from what they wrote. You're saying they wrote the rule incorrectly, based on the fluff.
I'm saying that both the fluff and the rule are correct. They do not conflict. When you trip something and it provokes, you get to hit it.
I'm looking at you write the words "specifically changed" and "Clearly, the intent" as if you were absolutely sure of developer aim upon the basis of that thread. Then I go to the thread and see that nothing is resolved whatsoever, with the very question being pointedly asked and discussed across several pages, with no definitive response from the developers.
The change in wording when they published it isn't definitive enough?
Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).Trip, Greater lacks any such text.
The reason the provocation of GBR is not standard is because there is extra text there limiting it.
There is no extra text in GTrip limiting it, so it is not limited beyond a standard provocation.
@Mike Schneider
I'm not sure I agree with you, but neither am I sure I disagree. Either way, you're in for a wild ride.
What I am pretty sure Mergy and everyone else is saying is... You tripped him you get the AoO...
No, Mergy is pointing out that changing the text of Greater Trip to allow more than one attack of opportunity doesn't make sense if it's not possible for it to cause more than one attack of opportunity.
If the person tripping is the only one able to take an AoO, then there's no possible way for there to be more than one AoO taken.
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The feat is clearly written, and Grick is totally correct. The fluff and the rules both agree; everyone threatening the tripped target may take an AOO. Anything else is conjuring rules and adding them to the feat.
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Remember folks, sometimes a sentence can be correctly read (grammatically speaking) in two different ways. In such cases, the reading which produces the fewest issues/conflicts with surrounding verbiage and related rules is usually the right one.
No Way!
The writers intentionally use cryptic sentence structure and arcane definitions so as to cause the greatest amount of confusion.
After all, if the simplest answer was always right, what would we have to argue about?
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I'm still not seeing anyone make a rational argument that Paizo intended to write:
Everybody can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
...when they instead wrote: You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.
If Paizo is known for something, it sadly isn't for writing rules that always perfectly fit the fluff with the crunch and are inambiguous.
But a few pages into the thread, someone made a very illuminating comparison with a similar BAB6-required "Greater" combat-maneuver feat:Trip, Greater lacks any such text.Greater Bull Rush (Combat)
Your bull rush attacks throw enemies off balance.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, base attack bonus +6, Str 13.
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to bull rush a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Bull Rush. Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
... maybe it lacks such text because Greater Bull Rush provokes only for allies ; while Greater Trip provokes for everyone ?
I'm not sure what other argument this is being dragged into, but I think it might be best to let this particular sleeping thread lie. Locked.