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There will ALWAYS be different understandings of rules no matter how they're written. Players and GMs alike need to understand and come to grips with that. Be respectful and have fun. If that's not possible, pack up and go home. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.
I disagree, the Clearer things are, the easier it is avoid that. The vast majority of people who if you can point out the the clear rule to will except it and move on from there. All the major problems where all due to unclear RAW, playing up, replay, etc, and different interpretations, or disagreement on if a ruling on the forums was considered RAW. Limiting those unclear RAW will go far into getting rid of GMs having different understandings of RAW.
Not every rule can be made perfectly clear. but I think they can be made 100x better then they are written now, Which I know they are working on.
Mostly my point is, I still feel it is better for everyone to just follow the RAW and try to limit interpretations.
Mostly my point is, I still feel it is better for everyone to just follow the RAW and try to limit interpretations.
I am not sure how much time you've spent in various rules forums about the Internet, but they are *full* of people debating what a RAW actually means. It is very difficult to write a rule that isn't subject to some interpretation or can't handle every scenario. To do this the rulesets would quickly read more like legalise.
Like Kyle said there are always going to be different interpretations of rules. Taking Hyrum's statement to error to the side of fun when interpreting and we can keep the Pathfinder Society Guide from turning into a tome of legalese that tries to cover every possible situation that could arise. GM's need to be thinking people, use common sense and remember to keep PFS fun. I am pretty confident that GMs that can't do that will eventually find themselves without players.
I can't properly express the sadness and embarrassment I feel when I hand over the massive PFS guide to a new player and ask them to read it.keep the Pathfinder Society Guide from turning into a tome of legalese
Me too, which is why we're going to be changing it. :)
Hyrum.
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Some people may think this is a silly question, but how is 38 pages massive, especially when maybe 8 of those pages at the most are rules clarifications or house rules for PFS play that a player needs to know? The rest of the pages are character creation, factions, faction traits, the GM's section, front and back covers, character and chronicle sheets, and legal stuff.
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Some people may think this is a silly question, but how is 38 pages massive, especially when maybe 8 of those pages at the most are rules clarifications or house rules for PFS play that a player needs to know? The rest of the pages are character creation, factions, faction traits, the GM's section, front and back covers, character and chronicle sheets, and legal stuff.
I agree Enevhar, it is not a big book.
The only embarrassment you should have are when people don't read it. I have no sympathy for anyone who refuses to read a 34 page book and gets screwed over because of that because they think it is to "big".
And I can't believe people are debating with me about making the rules clearer, which I think can be done, these are not difficult rules, just some used poor wording.
Some people may think this is a silly question, but how is 38 pages massive, especially when maybe 8 of those pages at the most are rules clarifications or house rules for PFS play that a player needs to know? The rest of the pages are character creation, factions, faction traits, the GM's section, front and back covers, character and chronicle sheets, and legal stuff.
38 pages is large if you're a new player and told "Here, read this", especially when a lot of the information isn't needed if you're just going to sit down and play right then.
We're going to be breaking it up into Player, Judge, and Coordinator books, which should help make things easier for everyone.
Hyrum.
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^ What Hyrum said. ^
An example of my frustration was at my last local game day. I ran Skeleton Moon and three of the players were brand new playing pregens. We were done in just under 3 hours, and had about 2 hours to kill before the next slot. They wanted to make their own characters in that time. I tried to do usual explanation about how organized play is different than home play, how PA works, how the chronicles work, how to build a character, etc. Someone had a print out of the Guide which I put on the table before these new players. The look of frustration on their face was embarrassing to me. They just wanted to play, not read a short novel with detailed explanations for every rules lawyer in the society. They were familiar with 3.5, knew how to basically play, and wanted their own characters.
Looking about at my explanation of things, I could see a "New Players Guide to Organized Play" being a whopping 2 pages long.
Each faction really only needs a sentence or two.
PA can be simplified to a couple of sentences about what it represents (they don't need to know how it's used just yet).
Explain the importance of keeping accurate chronicles, and to encourage your sessions to get reported online.
Reference the point buy rules and starting wealth.
A short list of feats not allowed in PFS.
I would consider making traits an optional feature. The character creation process is already considerably long w/o adding 100+ more options.
Reference a more detailed guide for specific PFS rules and clarifications (animal companions, etc). These don't need to be presented to a player unless they want to actually play those classes.
I would include a character sheet, with the intent that this guide be handed over to the new players. (we really NEED new character sheets, preferably class specific sheets! There are so many "Where do I write this" moments that don't have a good answer.)
There are a few other things that could be mentioned to like day jobs, alignment, hit points per level, etc, but the main focus should be on speed. Worry about being "complete" after they're hooked with their own character (or even their second character).
We're going to be breaking it up into Player, Judge, and Coordinator books, which should help make things easier for everyone.
Hyrum.
Now this is a very good idea. Having a Player's only Guide that is 5-10 pages that are also well organized would make a big difference.
And Kyle, for your example I agree, but mainly because of the organization of the current Guide and not the size.
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Any chance we will get to use Item Creation Feats? ;) jk
Gotta have fun, or why else be here.
This is actually one of the biggest complaints I get from players, I have even had people say they are thinking of quiting over this, which leads to me telling them why would you want to use a feat slot for an item creation feat anyway when you are limited to 12 levels, which of course leads to them being upset about that and wishing that PFS would raise the cap to 20, which leads to me explaining the logistical problems with that, which leads to them telling me this is why they hate Org play because of Character Restrictions, which leads to me telling them they are having fun even with those rules, which leads to them telling me they would have more fun without those restrictions. Some people you just can't make happy ;).
So long as the passage of time between scenarios is not tracked, item creation that takes longer than a day or two will not be feasible.
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Yeah, I'm not arguing for or against crafting, but from a time standpoint, if no one tracks time between sessions, then why would't a character be able to say they took, say, three weeks off to make an item?
That statement makes absolutely no sense.
Because without the tracking of time I can take a billionty 3 week blocks between last weeks adventure and this weeks adventure? Oh, and I now have 300 billionty gold. Thanks!
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I didn't mean to start a wave. I was just kidding. I'm okay with the no item creation feats rule. The only thing I have to say on the subject is that I think it hurts wizards. I now have to spend full gold for scrolls I should be getting for half. I believe that the class itself is created to take scribe scroll into account for the power of the class.
But as I said earlier, I'm okay with it. Just means more of my resources will be going to buying scrolls instead of other magical items.
Because without the tracking of time I can take a billionty 3 week blocks between last weeks adventure and this weeks adventure? Oh, and I now have 300 billionty gold. Thanks!Yeah, I'm not arguing for or against crafting, but from a time standpoint, if no one tracks time between sessions, then why would't a character be able to say they took, say, three weeks off to make an item?
That statement makes absolutely no sense.
Exactly. And I should probably amend my original statement to say that only crafting that can be done in a single day and does not interfere with the adventure would be feasible, which mainly leaves only low-level scroll creation for magic crafting. Seriously, if it is the end of the day and your mage somehow has a spell left over, why couldn't you take two hours and turn that remaining 1st or 2nd level spell into a scroll before resting and recovering spells for the next day?
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Because without the tracking of time I can take a billionty 3 week blocks between last weeks adventure and this weeks adventure? Oh, and I now have 300 billionty gold. Thanks!Yeah, I'm not arguing for or against crafting, but from a time standpoint, if no one tracks time between sessions, then why would't a character be able to say they took, say, three weeks off to make an item?
That statement makes absolutely no sense.
The cost to create items is the same cost you get to sell them for in PFS.