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I have just started readingthe PFS organised play guide and noticed that it states that it is assumed that all players (not just GMs) will own a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets — A Guide to the Pathfinder Society as well as the Pathfinder RPG core rulebook.
I had been planning on getting this anyway, but I am cuurious why this supplement is considered so important for every player? Surely the rules of playing PFS are in the organised play guide, right?
Are there special rules I need to know about before playing PFS? I doubt I will have time to read this before my next con and so wonder whether I should not bother trying to get into a PFS game there until I have it.
I am really puzzled about what this volume could contain that is so important - is it in game info a PFS character should know?
I had intended on only getting this in PDF format, but if it is so important does it get referenced a lot in play and thus worth getting in hardcopy too?
Thanks in advance for your answers.
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Look at it like the difference between RAI and RAW.
I would recommend the Seekers of Secrets as the book gives some background about the Pathfinder Society. As such it would be nice if players have familiarized themselves with the book.
Is it essential for play. Make up your own mind. I can't remembervthat I used anything apart of fluff from the book for my characters. I'm a fifth level wizard with my highest level if this helps. I can't remember having it seen at the gaming table either. Off course when I GM I'm busy with other issues. And I haven't seen a single person being send home because he doesn't have the book.
Off course I'm in no positions to tell you, you don't need it. After all it's in the rules as you figured out and apart of changing them - what answers could you expect here.
Thod
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As far as I understand it player's don't need to buy anything to play Pathfinder Society. Part of the core assumption means you don't need to bring the book to "prove" to the DM that what you have is legal/the wording of the item, spell, feat, etc. What it does mean is that the DM is assumed to own the copy and brings them to the table. This means that the burden is on the DM to have all three "Core" books for PFS: Core Rulebook, Bestiary, and Seeker of Secrets.
In my tables I don't care whether individual people have a Core Rulebook. In fact, if no one had it it would still be fine with me. However it is their loss as I will only lend it out if I'm not using it/having easy reference to the rules at the time.
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean
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I've always taken Seeker of Secrets' core assumption status as just meaning that a GM should have access to it as a player doesn't have to, though it may be referenced in a scenario. I've always had a copy with me whenever I've run stuff and have mostly used it just for a picture of a venture captain or for info on wayfinders and ioun stones.
It does contain a lot of background information on the Pathfinder Society that GMs should be familiar with and it is helpful for players to be aware of it too. It is information that characters would know. But no special rules.
Certainly I'm not going to send anybody away from the table for not having a copy. If it is needed then it is the responsibility of the GM or co-ordinator to provide it and the core rulebook and bestiary (whereas anything else that players might use needs to be provided by them).
So overall message is that you don't need it to play a PFS game so turn up to the con and enjoy the game. (And feel free to ask more questions.)
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The Core Assumption
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Unless noted in later chapters, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Seekers of Secrets is legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. This includes base classes, feats, spells, equipment, and even prestige classes. While new Pathfinder RPG books in the future may be added to this core assumption, there are many other Pathfinder-brand products that are not part of the core, but have aspects that are legal for play. Please see Chapter 13 for details on additional resources for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. This chapter will be frequently updated as new Pathfinder products are released.
The SoS helps give a lot of background and flavor that players should understand when playing Pathfinder Characters. Way, way beyond anything else you can find on the subject. Is it ZOMG required for play? Not at a practical level no. Is a GM going to send you away from the table for not having it? I should certainly hope not.
There are some good rules additions (feats, equipment, PrCs) that you can use if you buy it. The wayfinder alone is reason enough for me, but I like my humans a little too much.
I especially play up the background stuff to new players, having them recently completed their Confirmation and becoming full fledged Pathfinders. That's not something they are going to know without the book and I don't expect they should know it setting down at the table for the first time. However, when I tell them about the book and they buy it a few sessions later then helps to make things click for them at a more personal level.
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Okay so it seems that despite the organised play guide saying:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.
...the book is neither mandatory, all that useful other than for fluff information, and indeed some people feel only the GM needs it.
If that is the case, I wonder why Paizo felt the need to make the assumption they do? It is a little misleading and frustrating. If it isn't essential then I will leave it where it is on my priority list of PDFs to get.
Thanks for the feedback!
Okay so it seems that despite the organised play guide saying:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary....the book is neither mandatory, all that useful other than for fluff information, and indeed some people feel only the GM needs it.
"We assume you have it" is not the same as "we insist you have it".
As other folks have said, I think it's just a way of saying that stuff in that book (either "fluff" or "crunch") is fair game in any PFS adventure, so don't be surprised when it pops up.
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Okay so it seems that despite the organised play guide saying:
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary....the book is neither mandatory, all that useful other than for fluff information, and indeed some people feel only the GM needs it.
I'm not sure I would make a statement like that. The book clearly is mandatory. It says so right there. You are assumed to have a copy.
I will not send any player away who does not have them, however. Chapter 13 material is a different story at my table. You will not be allowed to use those materials at my table without proper 'proof of purchase.'
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I was under the impression that the core assumptions meant anything on your character (classes,equipment,feats,etc.)that came from those sources, did not need the actual book or document to be brought by the player to the session to verify (as the GM is supposed to have them anyways). Anything from Chapter 13 requires the player to bring a copy because the GM might not have it.
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"We assume you have it" is not the same as "we insist you have it".
True, but it does imply that someone without it will be at a disadvantage, perhaps significantly. How much of a disadvantage I am trying to determine - it seems none at present.
As other folks have said, I think it's just a way of saying that stuff in that book (either "fluff" or "crunch") is fair game in any PFS adventure, so don't be surprised when it pops up.
If that is the case I wonder how much of a disadvantage that surprise will be - will it be underestimating an NPC? Will it be being perceived in character as being ignorant of PFS methods? Or will it be a case of missing out on bonus feats or something?
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I was under the impression that the core assumptions meant anything on your character (classes,equipment,feats,etc.)that came from those sources, did not need the actual book or document to be brought by the player to the session to verify (as the GM is supposed to have them anyways). Anything from Chapter 13 requires the player to bring a copy because the GM might not have it.
Good thing we cleared that up. :)
If that is the case I wonder how much of a disadvantage that surprise will be - will it be underestimating an NPC? Will it be being perceived in character as being ignorant of PFS methods? Or will it be a case of missing out on bonus feats or something?
Likely a combination of being confused by the plot ("Who's this guy and why is he talking to us like we should know him?") and missing out on the rules (e.g. an NPC might have a feat or piece of equipment from SoS without explaining what it does).
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Regional Venture-Coordinator, Mediterranean
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"We assume you have it" is not the same as "we insist you have it".True, but it does imply that someone without it will be at a disadvantage, perhaps significantly. How much of a disadvantage I am trying to determine - it seems none at present.
As other folks have said, I think it's just a way of saying that stuff in that book (either "fluff" or "crunch") is fair game in any PFS adventure, so don't be surprised when it pops up.If that is the case I wonder how much of a disadvantage that surprise will be - will it be underestimating an NPC? Will it be being perceived in character as being ignorant of PFS methods? Or will it be a case of missing out on bonus feats or something?
My view is that you won't be any disadvantage. If it's something that is common knowledge then I'll tell you what your character knows (rather than assuming that everybody has read and memorised the book).
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Likely a combination of being confused by the plot ("Who's this guy and why is he talking to us like we should know him?") and missing out on the rules (e.g. an NPC might have a feat or piece of equipment from SoS without explaining what it does).
If that is the sort of thing, then I will do without for now - I ran enough PFS in season zero to be aware of some of the NPCs - Grandmaster Torch, Venture Captain Adril Hestram etc.
As for not knowing any feats the NPCs have, well as a GM that might be an issue, but as a player, I wouldn't expect to know all of those so again no loss.
Anyway, thanks for the responses, I will ignore the remark in the guide and assume I just need the core rules.
Cheers!
We don't want people ignoring any part of the guide. I'd say tolerate it's absence for now, but future publications might need it.
I could understand requiring the GM to have Seekers of Secrets (in case he needs to look up how Boon Companion or ioun stone resonance works, e.g.). But requiring the players to bring Seekers of Secrets to the table is silly if the GM is required to bring a copy as well.
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We don't want people ignoring any part of the guide. I'd say tolerate it's absence for now, but future publications might need it.
So, theoretically there may be a future PFS scenario where a player will be unable to play if they don't have Seekers of Secrets? Will such scenarios be clearly labelled?
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We don't want people ignoring any part of the guide. I'd say tolerate it's absence for now, but future publications might need it.I could understand requiring the GM to have Seekers of Secrets (in case he needs to look up how Boon Companion or ioun stone resonance works, e.g.). But requiring the players to bring Seekers of Secrets to the table is silly if the GM is required to bring a copy as well.
I think you're mis-construeing the information (and correct me if I'm wrong). Being part of the core assumption means that the Society assumes that you have read the book and understand the information contained in it, however, being part of the core assumption only the GM is required to have a copy at the table. The players are not required to bring SoS. The flip side is that if you are using information from any other book then you need to be able to prove that it is legal for society play.
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Interestingly, I have just found a thread that sort of answers my question. It looks like the assumption of having Sos is to ensure a background for a character that meshes with the PFS in game background - e.g. field commissions are rare - your character is likely expected to have travelled to Absalom by themselves and petitioned fro training at the Grand Lodge.
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Paizo should add a one-page society primer in the next revision of the Guide to Organized Play, and drop Seekers from the Core Assumption. Next month's Pathfinder Companion: Inner Sea Primer would make a much more useful inclusion.
I think you're mis-construeing the information (and correct me if I'm wrong).
I agree with your assessment. I'm trying to figure out what Michael meant by "tolerate it's absence".
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I think you're mis-construeing the information (and correct me if I'm wrong). Being part of the core assumption means that the Society assumes that you have read the book and understand the information contained in it, however, being part of the core assumption only the GM is required to have a copy at the table. The players are not required to bring SoS. The flip side is that if you are using information from any other book then you need to be able to prove that it is legal for society play.We don't want people ignoring any part of the guide. I'd say tolerate it's absence for now, but future publications might need it.I could understand requiring the GM to have Seekers of Secrets (in case he needs to look up how Boon Companion or ioun stone resonance works, e.g.). But requiring the players to bring Seekers of Secrets to the table is silly if the GM is required to bring a copy as well.
It also means that scenarios can include information from Seeker of Secrets without having to explain it in great detail.
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I wouldn't plan on Seekers of the Secrets being dropped anytime soon. The inner see primer would not be a good replacement for it.
I have no idea how likely or unlikely such a move is -- only that I think it would be wise. Further, I wouldn't expect the Inner Sea Primer to be a replacement, exactly -- I just think it will cover info that is probably more important for every player to know. I also suspect they're hesitant to expand the Core Assumption.
I know when I GM newer players, I get a lot of questions about basic world info. It would be nice if those players were clearly directed toward the primer as a part of the Core Assumption.
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My reading on the Core Assumption is that:
Chris you aren't the only one in this thread, but really I don't understand how so many people are coming to this kind of conclusion. The wording is actually crystal clear.
Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary. Unless noted in later chapters, everything contained in the Core Rulebook and Seekers of Secrets is legal for play in Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
Every player has a copy. That means a table of 5 (including GM) there should be 5 copies of Core and 5 copies of SoS, 1 Bestiary and a module.
Now, is it completely unrealistic to assume walkups and newbies are going to have one or either of these? Of course.
But all these 'I take it to mean this, or that, or something else it doesn't say' just aren't true. Assuming every player has a copy means one that you have legally obtained via purchase. The Organized Play Program is marketing outreach after all. :)
Chris you aren't the only one in this thread, but really I don't understand how so many people are coming to this kind of conclusion. The wording is actually crystal clear.
Mark -- think of it this way.
I assume you are a man. That does not mean that you are required to get a sex change if you're actually a woman. It just means there might be some confusion if my assumption is wrong.
OK, that was one of the most painful analogies I have ever heard. It's so wrong on so many levels.
I aim to please. ;-)
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I get your point. The primer might be a nice addition.I wouldn't plan on Seekers of the Secrets being dropped anytime soon. The inner see primer would not be a good replacement for it.I have no idea how likely or unlikely such a move is -- only that I think it would be wise. Further, I wouldn't expect the Inner Sea Primer to be a replacement, exactly -- I just think it will cover info that is probably more important for every player to know. I also suspect they're hesitant to expand the Core Assumption.
I know when I GM newer players, I get a lot of questions about basic world info. It would be nice if those players were clearly directed toward the primer as a part of the Core Assumption.
Even though I (obviously) don't have a player's companion sub, I have this one on pre-order. It will be replacing my Gazetteer as my "always on hand" world reference for FPS.
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Chris you aren't the only one in this thread, but really I don't understand how so many people are coming to this kind of conclusion. The wording is actually crystal clear.Mark -- think of it this way.
I assume you are a man. That does not mean that you are required to get a sex change if you're actually a woman. It just means there might be some confusion if my assumption is wrong.
You're really going to tell me that you understand this sentence (Pathfinder Society Organized Play assumes that every player has a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook and a copy of Pathfinder Chronicles: Seekers of Secrets, A Guide to the Pathfinder Society, and that every Game Master (GM) has the above plus a copy of the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary.) to mean "We assume you have these books, but if you don't that's cool too." ?
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Mark- do you mean to tell me you'd turn away players for not showing up with a supplemental book?
And yes, that is how we read it. If you were required to have it it would say "required" or "mandatory". As said above core assumption has more to do with what they are able to use in a scenario without taking up space to reprint the details, than it is about enforcing who has a copy of what at your table.
Here's what Josh said on the issue a few months ago.
The relevant portion:
The Core Assumption rules are in Chapter 1 under the Basics of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. The CA is a design decision. I assume the GMs and players have the appropriate books above when designing a scenario and do not, therefor, reprint any of the material from those books. So when I give a fighter a greatsword, I'm not going to use text to explain both what a fighter is and what a greatsword is. Same goes for the Bestiary--if a scenario uses a goblin, I'm not going to reprint the entire goblin statblock, I'm just going to cite the Bestiary page because the Bestiary is part of the core assumption.
Players can show up at your table with not a single book to their name. They can sit down, make a character out of the Core Rulebook and Seekers of Secrets using someone else's book (or use a Core Rulebook-generated official pregen) and happily play. They can then show up to a hundred sessions with dozens of different characters all created right from the Core Assumption and never have to actually buy a book. That changes if the player wants to utilize something from Chapter 13--in that case, they need to bring a copy of the book or a printout of an actual watermarked Paizo PDF to show the GM how that feat/spell/item works because the GM doesn't have any of the additional resources in Chapter 13 on his or her Core Assumption for GMing.
Holy Abadar, I hope this clears some things up. :-)
It looks like it didn't clear anything up, though. Now, the policy might well have changed since then, but I haven't heard an official announcement to that effect.
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Mark- do you mean to tell me you'd turn away players for not showing up with a supplemental book?
And yes, that is how we read it. If you were required to have it it would say "required" or "mandatory". As said above core assumption has more to do with what they are able to use in a scenario without taking up space to reprint the details, than it is about enforcing who has a copy of what at your table.
Anything society legal can be used without taking up space to reprint the details -- the player is simply responsible for bringing it. So I don't think the "don't reprint" criteria is meaningful.
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This is one post where Josh said the same thing.
EDIT: But hogarth found a much more useful and direct quote. :)
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Mark- do you mean to tell me you'd turn away players for not showing up with a supplemental book?
As I've already posted twice in this thread that clearly I would not...clearly I would not.
It looks like it didn't clear anything up, though. Now, the policy might well have changed since then, but I haven't heard an official announcement to that effect.
Yeah that doesn't really clear anything up in my mind. And the quote you went for implies (to me) that some other player at the table has the book. Which, as I've said is perfectly reasonable to assume newbie and walkups won't have these books. Don't turn them away, don't send them off to buy books. Sit them down and game with them.
But ithuriel I think you've nailed it:
"Core Assumption" means "I don't have to reprint anything in here when designing NPCs for a scenario because we assume you have this book."
assume - to take for granted or without proof; suppose; postulate; posit.
have - to possess; own; hold for use; contain
Yeah that doesn't really clear anything up in my mind. And the quote you went for implies (to me) that some other player at the table has the book.
You mean: "Players can show up at your table with not a single book to their name"? To me, that implies that the GM has the necessary books.
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For the GM side of it I definitely agree with you. It IS the GM's responsibility to own every book of the Core Assumption and that is who Josh is directing that toward in the quote you are trying to repurpose into a broader point. I don't think anyone has been arguing that the GM does not need to have the Core Assumption.
I think it is abundantly clear that players (though it is not ideal) can show up without a single book if their character is made entirely from the Core Assumption. I'm not even sure why you are arguing otherwise since as you say, you would not turn them away if they didn't have it.
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For the GM side of it I definitely agree with you. It IS the GM's responsibility to own every book of the Core Assumption and that is who Josh is directing that toward in the quote you are trying to repurpose into a broader point. I don't think anyone has been arguing that the GM does not need to have the Core Assumption.
I think it is abundantly clear that players (though it is not ideal) can show up without a single book if their character is made entirely from the Core Assumption. I'm not even sure why you are arguing otherwise since as you say, you would not turn them away if they didn't have it.
Agreed. I get hung up on words and am quite literal with them.
What I am disagreeing with is the notion that somehow the text as written doesn't mean players should have those two books. It most obviously, clearly does.
Anyway, we all agree PFS is awesome and people should buy books so MM can eat. :)
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bugleyman> You are talking about from a player's perspective. I'm talking about reprinting details for npcs within scenarios. If they use a feat from the APG for the bad guy, they will need to explain what it does for the GM, because that is not part of the core assumption.
Ah; my mistake. I understand now.
Director of Brand Strategy
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We don't want people ignoring any part of the guide. I'd say tolerate it's absence for now, but future publications might need it.So, theoretically there may be a future PFS scenario where a player will be unable to play if they don't have Seekers of Secrets? Will such scenarios be clearly labelled?
This is unlikely, but I'm hesitant to say anything is impossible or, conversely, guaranteed. There have already been a number of scenarios in which prominent treasure received was taken from Seekers of Secrets, in which case they are simply listed on Chronicles and cited with a page number. If items appear from other non-core sources, they are generally restatted. As we continue to increase the number of sourcebooks, what we do and don't need to reprint becomes a much larger concern. For the time being, all Pathfinder Society Players are assumed to have access to Seekers of Secrets. How you interpret that and how important this assumption is to you is up to you.
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This is how I deal with core assumptions.
I tell all our players about the core assumptions and what it means. That if they make a character from using anything from them they do not need to show proof of ownership of the source, I assume they have the book, but I won't hunt them down if they don't. If I find out they don't I will politely suggest they get them.
I know all our players own the Pathfinder RPG Core either in physical form or PDF, I know some own Seeker of Secrets because they have used stuff from it, I have encouraged all our players to own and read the guide and before answering any questions from a regular player about stuff explained in the guide I ask if they read the guide, and the one time I was told no, I told them to read the guide and if you still have the question afterwards I will answer it.
on the bestiary, to be a GM in our group you need to own the bestiary, all our GMs do.
On stuff from Ch 13, I tell them they can't use any of the stuff from there unless they own the product, but they are free to look through my books to see if it is worth owning the product. A few have bought stuff from Ch 13. I think I may be the only one that owns everything.
I also encourage everyone to learn about the setting by either buying the PDF of the Gazetteer or reading the Pathfinder Wiki.
If I was at a Convention and someone came to my table with out core assumption stuff, That is ok, because they don't need to, but if they came without showing proof of owning stuff in Ch 13, either a PDF, PDF printout or the actual book, I would tell the player that for this game they can't use what ever that thing is (Feat, spell, item, etc.), or they can play another character if they have one that does not have that issue. Either way I would not turn the player away, but I could see maybe sometime in the future a player getting pissed at me because I won't let them use that feat, spell or item.
It has happened to me once, had a player who did not have the book and When I asked where he got the trait from, he said he got it from the web and that his home GM was ok with that. This is why I suggest to all GMs to actually follow the rules in the guide because that player someday could actually have problems when they play with another GM or convention, who does follow those rules. That player on the spot changed the trait to a trait from the Guide.
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To answer the original question simply: Yup. Everyone should buy a copy. Why? Because its a cool book and it will help your Pathfinder Society character. And because you will have gotten something tangible for your money, vs. if you just blew it all on cigarettes and beer, or McDonald's, or whatever. Its a good book to have.