It may have been the 3 part World of Future Darkness articles that ran in White Wolf Magazine issues 36-38. All three are at drivethurpg.com .Hey...since we're all here, there's something I've been looking for for a very, very long time.
I'm not sure if it was in Dragon, Dungeon or some other magazine, but there was an amazing writeup of life after an apocalypse had occurred covering mostly the Garou and the Kindred. I think it was something akin to a nuclear holocaust setting, as the Garou had been seriously diminished in numbers(and that's saying something), and the Kindred had to be very careful in terms of who they fed from to avoid getting truly bad blood.
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
I can't thank you enough for this, friend. It just might be the thing I'm thinking of. I downloaded one this morning and will download the rest this afternoon/evening. Thank you.
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Intriguing. How did you play Werewolf, then? It, far moreso than any other game except perhaps Mage, lent itself best to going out into the world and physically attempting to resolve disputes.
Don't get me wrong...there was a lot of "might makes right" type of stuff going and munckinizing on "agg damage" and "who has the biggest klaive" on but lots was the personal story, pack life and what it ment to be a Garou with the Apocolypse looming. The pack figured fight what they can but survive to rebuild after it happens. Just because they lived as a human and are furry didn't mean that they were petty about things...just not cold, drinking blood and petty. There was a lot of "okay...mysterious things happenening...find out the source" type of games. Our game was based in Colorado Springs (CSprings). Both the WoD version and IRL version has "Palmer Park" (http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx?trailid=BGR027-217) which in a nutshell is this breathakingly beautiful park...right in the middle of the city. This allowed both wilderness and urban adventures to happen and cross over things such as allies in the Vampire community to investigate a mutal threat.
The big difference between the oWoD and the nWoD is simply how much space they give the group to create their own setting. oWoD had the metaplot, and while I think most fans of it loved it, you either did the metaplot or it didn't really feel like the oWoD.
I didn't like that. It felt that the metaplot was forced down your throat. I met so many OWoD purists that I got turned off to it. Who says the Sabbat have to be how they are presented? We used them as a different faction of vampires...more like a "covenant" that followed a different set of rules of behavior to reign in the Beast. Sometimes they fight the Camarilla and the "independents" mostly over hunting grounds, influence and resources. Another time it was a small group of Meso-America/Pre-Columbian natives and vampires that did NOT follow humanity but the "paths" and had not had contact with the world.
nWoD feels like you're allowed to do whatever you want, and still keeps its darkly taste. Of course, I've run a W:tA game with nWoD rules- why not? It takes very little tweaking to do it. There's no reason not to do whatever the hell you want with the game, and not wait for the publisher to go where you want.
I could hug you now. Yes...RULE 0 if you don't like it change it. In our NWoD game...Malkovians are a bloodline, not anything more. Tainted crazy blood created it from an already unstable clan. No disease no nothing like that. In our OWoD game there was little to no "Dirty Secrets of the Blackhand". There was no "Old Clan Tzim..Shami"...however you say it, Visscistude...whatever that Discipline is is NOT a disease or an alien symbiot. It was looked on more as a way to transcend the vampiric condition...kinda like Coils of the Dragon in NWoD. Garou were in-fighting more with each other. Changelings were few and far between. There were "Immortals" ala "there can only be one" type that did their thing...vampires hated them since they left decapitated corpses for the police to find and strange goings on...usually near the Rack. Lastly another that I remeber fondly was the HITT MARKS...some Mage Cyborg thing were more common and scary all to hell to encounter.
The big difference between the oWoD and the nWoD is simply how much space they give the group to create their own setting. oWoD had the metaplot, and while I think most fans of it loved it, you either did the metaplot or it didn't really feel like the oWoD.
I have to respectfully disagree. The metaplot wasn't really present until the last half of oWoD's run. I'm barely even aware of what it encompassed, because I stopped buying WoD books around '98 or so. (That's right, it's my fault. I stopped playing WoD and everything collapsed. Ok, I still picked up Exalted books after that, but I had lost my interest in WoD around then.)
There were strong meta-themes present the whole time. Most of the themes were more about personal development. Vampire was about maintaining your humanity despite having to do monstrous things to survive. Mage was about inner growth and control over your own destiny. Changeling was about maintaining your innocent spark in a cruel and banal world. Wraith was about dealing with your own death. Only Werewolf was about fighting the coming apocalypse, and even that could be a more personal struggle with living in a changing society.
Meta-plot was where they told you certain events happened. Ancient Vampire awakes and changes the politics of a region. A chantry was attacked destroyed. A ... I actually really don't know what most of them were. Meta-plots were specific events that changed the world. Most games I played in we didn't use any official NPCs. Early WoD was always about taking your own hometown and filling in the blanks. Who is the prince of San Diego? Is that park werewolf territory? Is that club a changeling freehold? Plenty of room to build your own world from things you are familiar with. I suspect nWoD feels like early WoD because they haven't begun changing stuff yet. They are still working on building it.
I like both oWoD and nWoD, but I have to give nWoD the edge, both in system and setting. The biggest challenge to me being able to run an oWoD game today, I think, would be that my social group is made up largely of people who would be at least a little bit uncomfortable with the jaw-dropping collection of ethnic and cultural stereotypes in some of the older oWoD settings.
The Italian vampires are tied to the Mafia.
The Egyptian vampires are twisted cultists.
The Arabian vampires are bloodthirsty assassins.
The "Gypsy" vampires are theiving charlatans.
The Native American werewolves are the very definition of noble savages.
The Nordic werewolves are Neo-Nazis berzerkers.
The Irish werewolves are drunken brawlers.
The feminist werewolves are man-castrating b&&@$es.
Also, WoD: Gypsies was just embarrassing.
I give White Wolf credit for making attempts to present a diverse portfolio of cultures, but man, some of those stereotypes got really ugly. That, and a lot of the anti-science themes that got thrown around in some of the games really had me turned off to the point where the change to nWoD was something I loved.
Having said that, they did learn their lessons and get better near the end of the oWoD. Orpheus and Demon were arguably the best games I had encountered up to that point.
I sometimes miss oWoD, but I know that if I ever want to play it, the books still work just as well as they did lo those many years ago. Hell, a couple of my friends are still playing it, so I know that a community of players exists. The urge hasn't been strong enough to get me to go back yet (largely because I'm having fun with my nWoD stuff, not to mention all of the other great game systems that I'm struggling to find time enough to play), but maybe someday.
I like both oWoD and nWoD, but I have to give nWoD the edge, both in system and setting. The biggest challenge to me being able to run an oWoD game today, I think, would be that my social group is made up largely of people who would be at least a little bit uncomfortable with the jaw-dropping collection of ethnic and cultural stereotypes in some of the older oWoD settings.
*a bunch of Vampire and Werewolf examples*
I was more into Mage and Changeling, so the stereotyping was not nearly so bad as those. Sure, the Verbena might have annoyed some Wiccans, but most of the time my Wiccan friends were actually inspired by the Verbena.
I agree that the rules needed a uniform clean up, I'm just betting they could have released the old world with new rules and made bank while still having room to explore new ideas in additional lines.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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One word, a mountain of suck:
Atlantis.
Huh?....
The backstory of nMage is that all magic(k) comes from Atlantis. I find that to be painfully stupid. Partly, it's because I hate that magic(k) has one True Source, but mostly, it's because Atlantis is such a limited concept. It's not really rich enough to support the wide range of traditions that I would like to see in a Mage campaign.
And, it makes me think of Aquaman, Namor, etc. It's hard for me to overcome that knee jerk reaction.
And, it makes me think of Aquaman, Namor, etc. It's hard for me to overcome that knee jerk reaction.
If I could play the Justice League Unlimited cartoon version of Aquaman, that would be awesome with extra sauce. :)
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I only ever played Mage or Hunter, and there really aren't any games like oWoD Mage. nWoD ruined it for me, the whole "Belief is Reality" and "All human belief, willpower, and ingenuity is actually magic" basis of the oWoD Mage setting made for some truly interesting settings and stories. nWoD Mage just doesn't seem nearly as inclusive to all of the magical and scientific traditions out there, and removing the "magic vs science in a war for reality" element made the whole thing less compelling.
In addition, making all magic the same, and covering every possible religion, occult tradition, or scientific practice with 9 spheres and the traditions and conventions, all in the core book, took away the possibility for that nasty stereotyping element and made crunchy expansion books a lot less necessary to bring to the table, something very nice for my back and my bank account.
*lots of stereotypes my group tended to avoid or downplay*Also, WoD: Gypsies was just embarrassing.
Really? I liked the Gypsy book and it is one I made sure to keep in order to use with nWoD. In fact, in my old group there was one female player that had Rom blood and loved using that book for her characters.
Funny, I never felt 'bound' by the metaplot.
That's how I felt. Metaplot was a framework for my games, never a straightjacket. I used, ignored or altered any part of that I felt helped the story that I was wanting to tell. A much as I like the nWoD, I really miss the metaplot. When I was road-blocked, I could always turn to the metaplot for inspiration.
I can't thank you enough for this, friend. It just might be the thing I'm thinking of. I downloaded one this morning and will download the rest this afternoon/evening. Thank you.It may have been the 3 part World of Future Darkness articles that ran in White Wolf Magazine issues 36-38. All three are at drivethurpg.com .Hey...since we're all here, there's something I've been looking for for a very, very long time.
I'm not sure if it was in Dragon, Dungeon or some other magazine, but there was an amazing writeup of life after an apocalypse had occurred covering mostly the Garou and the Kindred. I think it was something akin to a nuclear holocaust setting, as the Garou had been seriously diminished in numbers(and that's saying something), and the Kindred had to be very careful in terms of who they fed from to avoid getting truly bad blood.
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
Cool, I'm glad I could help! Hope you get a great game out of it!
One word, a mountain of suck:
Atlantis.
Huh?....
The backstory of nMage is that all magic(k) comes from Atlantis. I find that to be painfully stupid. Partly, it's because I hate that magic(k) has one True Source, but mostly, it's because Atlantis is such a limited concept. It's not really rich enough to support the wide range of traditions that I would like to see in a Mage campaign.
And, it makes me think of Aquaman, Namor, etc. It's hard for me to overcome that knee jerk reaction.
Magic didn't come from Atlantis in Mage: The Awakening. Atlantis is just the name given to the society that existed before the Fall. Atlantis isn't a literal place... or maybe it is. Depends on how which theory you subscribe to.
But if you don't like it, you don't like it. It's all cool.
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It's easy to say ignore the metaplot. Except after awhile the later books were imo permeated with it. Sure if you were a casual collector it's easy to. Except back then I was not I picked up everything and my players were alos bog fans of OWOD. While I could have rewritten or ignored a lot of the suff what is the point of buying sourcebooks if you just going to ignore them. Now as I'm older I know better. Not ot mention the metaplot was big enough that each seperate game line needed a book to end it.
With NWOD I can use some of the OWOD metaplot and I don't. I prefer the NWOD less metapllot driven backgrounds. Some of the Black Dog releases for OWOD were questionable at best.
It's easy to say ignore the metaplot. Except after awhile the later books were imo permeated with it.
That's like pointing to the last bit and saying, the whole thing sucks. Sure, the decline of oWoD is directly related to the rise of the metaplot. As a long time player though, I can say that there was a ton of good material before the metaplot became prevalent.
Take Mage:
Main Book
Player's Guide
GM's Guide
Book of Worlds
Book of Chantries
Book of Madness
Technocracy
Crafts
All the Tradition books
Book of Chantries may have set the stage for the later metaplot stuff, but most of the rest of those are about ideas and filling out the world. You can run an excellent game with just the main book, player's and GM's guide. Can anyone point to where the metaplot really began? I suspect it was after I stopped buying books.
I agree that in the end it needed a reset. I just think they'd have survived better by reseting back to the beginning of the timeline (similar to 4E Dark Sun) instead of creating a whole new thing that alienated their existing fans.
I personally don't think WW gives a rat's ass about their fan base.
I hung out with quite a lot of the WWP guys at GAMA for a couple of years and they were always friendly, open, nice to their fans, and just generally fun to be around. (wow, I really am starting to sound like a shill....)
Am I the only one who liked the Metaplot? One of the reasons I lost interest is because they got rid of it.
I loved the metaplot. I'd sing the praises of metaplot from the highest rooftop if it wasn't for the fact I'd probably fall off and brake a lot parts of my body that I'd really rather stay in one piece.
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Until the metaplot killed off the Ravnos, it was, for the most part, irrelevant to game releases. Once that happened, and there would be no more product support for Clan Ravnos (which, frankly, I never used as written anyway, so, no big deal for me), that was a game-changer. (Quite a bit of it was kinda/sorta optional anyway. The whole Vicissitude-as-alien-disease thing, for instance, was described as real, and yet the rules were described as optional, for *if* that variation was true in your own chronicle. Certainly, the sidebar in the Giovanni Clanbook that described how they had Mages, Wraiths, Garou and Fae all in their family and working for them, was a joke at the expense of fans that the author wanted to poke.)
Until the last year or so, when they'd already decided to blow up the entire world, the metaplot was pretty much a non-issue. Not like in the Forgotten Realms, where the Time of Troubles 'metaplot' removed several playable options from the game, for, in some cases, pretty darn specious reasons.
[Yes, I'm still bitter about Lleira, the goddess of deception and trickery, getting ganked *off-screen.*]
"Oh, the new guy who killed the god of murder and stole his power, and was somehow involved with the deaths of the gods of tyranny and death, wants me to meet him in a dark place, come alone, and tell no one where I'm going. I wonder if he has candy?"
Cool, I'm glad I could help! Hope you get a great game out of it!I can't thank you enough for this, friend. It just might be the thing I'm thinking of. I downloaded one this morning and will download the rest this afternoon/evening. Thank you.It may have been the 3 part World of Future Darkness articles that ran in White Wolf Magazine issues 36-38. All three are at drivethurpg.com .Hey...since we're all here, there's something I've been looking for for a very, very long time.
I'm not sure if it was in Dragon, Dungeon or some other magazine, but there was an amazing writeup of life after an apocalypse had occurred covering mostly the Garou and the Kindred. I think it was something akin to a nuclear holocaust setting, as the Garou had been seriously diminished in numbers(and that's saying something), and the Kindred had to be very careful in terms of who they fed from to avoid getting truly bad blood.
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
Actually I picked them all up, and after reading them and enjoying them thouroughly, I came to realize that they are not, in fact, the articles I was looking for. Are you sure there was nothing on Werewolf or life after the Apocalypse printed in Dragon Magazine?
Actually I picked them all up, and after reading them and enjoying them thouroughly, I came to realize that they are not, in fact, the articles I was looking for. Are you sure there was nothing on Werewolf or life after the Apocalypse printed in Dragon Magazine?Cool, I'm glad I could help! Hope you get a great game out of it!I can't thank you enough for this, friend. It just might be the thing I'm thinking of. I downloaded one this morning and will download the rest this afternoon/evening. Thank you.It may have been the 3 part World of Future Darkness articles that ran in White Wolf Magazine issues 36-38. All three are at drivethurpg.com .Hey...since we're all here, there's something I've been looking for for a very, very long time.
I'm not sure if it was in Dragon, Dungeon or some other magazine, but there was an amazing writeup of life after an apocalypse had occurred covering mostly the Garou and the Kindred. I think it was something akin to a nuclear holocaust setting, as the Garou had been seriously diminished in numbers(and that's saying something), and the Kindred had to be very careful in terms of who they fed from to avoid getting truly bad blood.
Does this ring a bell for anyone?
Well... crap. I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be in Dragon Magazine. I don't think they've done any non-Wotc/TSR stuff for a couple of decades. The only other thing I can think of is Shadis Magazine (here's a link the issue I think it is: Gothapocalypse)
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It's not so much the metaplot as the metaplot for all the game lines leading up to the end of the world. Kind of hard to sell the game to a bunch of new players when no matter what they do the world ends. Of ciurse you can remove the metaplot yet to me OWOD was the metaplot. A rebot of the metaplot would have worked as long as it did not involve yet again the world ending at a later date.
I have the same problem interesting players in Rifts chaos Earth. A game set before Rifts. No matter what you do no matter how many people you save humanity is doomed to fall into a dark age and barely survive. So why bother. You might as well pay Rifts where humanity is slowly coming out of a dark age. Imo it's hard to find players who want to play an rpg where characters dooomed from the start.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Am I the only one who liked the Metaplot? One of the reasons I lost interest is because they got rid of it.
I liked parts of the metaplot. Mage: Pre-revision, once they got the 'technology = evil' stick out of the writers' butts. Then they put in back in for Mage: Rev. Heck, one of my favourite characters was a 200 year old Progenitor, who was obsessed with curing vampirism, or as he called it, "necrotizing stasis virus, type A"
Vampire: I liked the irony of the slaughter of the thin blooded awakening the Antideluvians. The idea of 'bringing about what you are trying to prevent' always amuses me.
The cosmology of KotE I liked. While it was the same 'we're doomed' aspect of Werewolf, the fact that they had so many different ways to handle the 5th age made it interesting to me.
Werewolf, well I've voiced my feelings already.
Wraith: Well over time/reading going from 'you're dead and life still sucks' to a more, nuanced, understanding of how it worked. I'd actually argue that a good wraith game required the most mature players. Not as in 'adult content' mature, but as in 'ok, I'm playing the other guy's shadow, this does not give me a licesne to be a richard.'
Changling: Ugh. In addition to making them completely incompatible with any of the others, the meta bothered me. Ok, so I'm a creativity sucking vampire, and if I'm a Sidhe, I've sent a soul screaming into somewhere so I can inhabit the body that will eventually get burned out. Creativity is dying, again because of that evil 'technology' bugaboo. *rolls eyes* Why yes, I hate changling, why do you ask?
Hunter: I liked because their 'meta' tied so much into Exalted and into KotE. "Ok Celestial Powers, we're going to try Solar Exalted 2.0, please don't screw this up." I also liked the 'normal folks' aspect, and the inherent double standard. "I have supernatural powers, I'm tasked to slay monsters with supernatural powers. Why am I not a monster? Beats me."
Demon: Never got this one.
The Stereotypes didn't bother me so much, well, the Rom book did a bit, but I worked most of those backwards into hedge magic paths.
I liked parts of the metaplot. Mage: Pre-revision, once they got the 'technology = evil' stick out of the writers' butts. Then they put in back in for Mage: Rev. Heck, one of my favourite characters was a 200 year old Progenitor, who was obsessed with curing vampirism, or as he called it, "necrotizing stasis virus, type A"
I used to see one or two people try stuff like this in Mage, but due to the unfortunate preponderence of power gamers at the table, it never got very far. Shame.
Vampire: I liked the irony of the slaughter of the thin blooded awakening the Antideluvians. The idea of 'bringing about what you are trying to prevent' always amuses me.
Loved that too, although I very much hated Vampire. To me, the books were great reading material, but horrible for gaming.
Werewolf, well I've voiced my feelings already.
*sniff*
Wraith: Well over time/reading going from 'you're dead and life still sucks' to a more, nuanced, understanding of how it worked. I'd actually argue that a good wraith game required the most mature players. Not as in 'adult content' mature, but as in 'ok, I'm playing the other guy's shadow, this does not give me a licesne to be a richard.'
Never got into Wraith, and considering the events of Demon imply that their world kinda went ker-blooey, I might not be able to get into it.
Changling: Ugh. In addition to making them completely incompatible with any of the others, the meta bothered me. Ok, so I'm a creativity sucking vampire, and if I'm a Sidhe, I've sent a soul screaming into somewhere so I can inhabit the body that will eventually get burned out. Creativity is dying, again because of that evil 'technology' bugaboo. *rolls eyes* Why yes, I hate changling, why do you ask?
My wife is a huge Changeling fan and one of the few people I know of who truly enjoys the setting. Me, I'm just glad Changeling the Lost came out, otherwise I would shudder everytime I heard the word "fae" for a different reason.
Hunter: I liked because their 'meta' tied so much into Exalted and into KotE. "Ok Celestial Powers, we're going to try Solar Exalted 2.0, please don't screw this up." I also liked the 'normal folks' aspect, and the inherent double standard. "I have supernatural powers, I'm tasked to slay monsters with supernatural powers. Why am I not a monster? Beats me."
Glad we can agree on some things!!!!!! And yeah, one of the more interesting ideas I came up with was a guy who basically lost it and started attacking hunters almost as much as he attacked monsters. He would have been a Hermit with a high rating and several psychological issues..not sure how long he would have lasted as a character, though.
Demon: Never got this one.
Me either, but I understand that this setting had something to do with the death of the Wraith setting.
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Me either, but I understand that this setting had something to do with the death of the Wraith setting.
I think that's right, but you didn't really have to focus on that aspect of it if you didn't want to be bothered with Wraith stuff. If I remember correctly...
Me either, but I understand that this setting had something to do with the death of the Wraith setting.I think that's right, but you didn't really have to focus on that aspect of it if you didn't want to be bothered with Wraith stuff. If I remember correctly...
** spoiler omitted **
If I remember correctly....
I played the original system since first edition, and even ran a campaign that lasted seven years. My players loved it, and ironically, the core of my group was movning away around the same time as the "Time of Judgement" books were coming out.
I really hope to run another campaign some day, but I dont see it happening any time soon.
I have a nearly complete set of the OWOD books, but after picking up the core set of NWOD books, I quickly realized that I didnt care for the new system, or the mythology associated with it.
I actually picked up Pathfinder because I wasnt able to put together a new group of OWOD players.
One word, a mountain of suck:
Atlantis.
Absolutely, unequivocally THIS.
The big difference between the oWoD and the nWoD is simply how much space they give the group to create their own setting. oWoD had the metaplot, and while I think most fans of it loved it, you either did the metaplot or it didn't really feel like the oWoD.I have to respectfully disagree. The metaplot wasn't really present until the last half of oWoD's run. I'm barely even aware of what it encompassed, because I stopped buying WoD books around '98 or so. (That's right, it's my fault. I stopped playing WoD and everything collapsed. Ok, I still picked up Exalted books after that, but I had lost my interest in WoD around then.)
I'm with you there.
OTOH, the reason I stopped buying oWoD books was precisely BECAUSE of the increasing amount of the metaplot. And largely because the metaplot AFFECTED HOW CERTAIN GAME MECHANICS WORKED. And these things affected my ability to work with my campaign world as I had designed it.
They couldn't just let Wraith: the Oblivion go out of print. They had to blow up the Shadowlands in the plot, and make that affect how the spirit world worked, which affected how the Umbra and Spirit Magic worked in the revised versions of Werewolf and Mage.
I know Wraith: the Oblivion did not have a huge following, but I liked it, and I had a very active Shadowlands-based plot in my game. I also had a very heavy spirit-world based scenario in general.
The official metaplot destroying the Shadowlands and utterly changing how the spirit world worked BOTH narratively AND mechanically meant I could not used future books for source material, not without an increasingly excessive use of houseruling. What was frustrating is that I liked a lot of the rules revisions and clarifications, especially in Mage the Ascension's revision, which overall made things work much better. So I was very torn between using the revisions that had better rules over all but had narrative/certain mechanical issues that conflicted with my campaign, and sticking with the old stuff. I tried to smash them together where I could, saying, "Okay we're using THESE rules from 3rd Ed but these other rules from 2nd ed and... agh." And FORGET trying to bring in a new player.
My other choice was to just ditch a campaign I'd worked on for four years and poured my heart and soul into. Which oddly enough, I didn't want to do. (And ultimately, when I ditched it, I ditched it to play D&D when 3rd edition came out and never looked back.)
And that's why I stopped buying oWoD materials in the late 90s. Of course everyone's experience may be different, mileage may vary, etc.
Much as I enjoyed, EXTREMELY, the older versions of the oWoD materials, I was frankly grateful and relieved when they just ditched the whole thing and started over again. I've never played much nWoD simply due to lack of opportunity, but it looks like they cleaned a lot of stuff up and I love that they made it easier to crossover games. I have heard Mage the Awakening's magic system is abominable but most other games are pretty good, and I'd in fact love to just play a human investigators game with the core rulebook.
ANYWAY... as to the original topic... I recall White Wolf went through several staff upheavals as the company became increasingly corporate. I think they've always waffled between trying to serve a small but dedicated core of gamers vs. trying to go for mass appeal and more general profitability. It's entirely speculation, but I imagine it's finally bitten them in the ass and they now represent little more than what marketable IP they have left.
...the whole "Belief is Reality" and "All human belief, willpower, and ingenuity is actually magic" basis of the oWoD Mage setting made for some truly interesting settings and stories. nWoD Mage just doesn't seem nearly as inclusive to all of the magical and scientific traditions out there, and removing the "magic vs science in a war for reality" element made the whole thing less compelling.
...and, um, also this.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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OTOH, the reason I stopped buying oWoD books was precisely BECAUSE of the increasing amount of the metaplot. And largely because the metaplot AFFECTED HOW CERTAIN GAME MECHANICS WORKED. And these things affected my ability to work with my campaign world as I had designed it.
Really? I thought that it was an editorial directive on Mage Rev to 'force' the games more to urban levels and away from 'trapsing around the Umbra'. The 'Wraith goes boom' meta was the in world reason given for the Game designer's direction.
Likewise the changes to Thaum, I thought were more to allow Thaum to be more diverse w/o making it the 'ultimate discipline'.
It's been a while, my memory's hazy.
Really? I thought that it was an editorial directive on Mage Rev to 'force' the games more to urban levels and away from 'trapsing around the Umbra'. The 'Wraith goes boom' meta was the in world reason given for the Game designer's direction.OTOH, the reason I stopped buying oWoD books was precisely BECAUSE of the increasing amount of the metaplot. And largely because the metaplot AFFECTED HOW CERTAIN GAME MECHANICS WORKED. And these things affected my ability to work with my campaign world as I had designed it.
I'm sure you're right, and I don't think anything I said contradicts that; I was discussing the effect, not the cause.
My obviously very personal problem with it was it happened to completely f~~* my campaign with a rusty chainsaw.
The thing is, before they did the massive metaplot "upgrade" people who wanted pure urban-punk could run their games that way, and people who wanted to focus on the more mystical/spiritual elements could. My campaign worked heavily with both sides of it (not saying I did a good job of it).
The decision they made basically said to people like me, whether intentional or not, "You're playing our game wrong.* We've made it so you can't play any more. We don't want you as a customer, please stop giving us money."
So I did.
((* Not to mention, the implied idea there was a "right" way to use their setting completely defies the spirit of rule zero and the earlier emphasis on both Storyteller and player agency.))
I will TOTALLY agree that, say, there needed to be some rules revisions over certain kinds of magic. Spirit Magic in Mage 2nd was broken as hell. But I think the route they took to "fix" it was the "weeding a garden with a bulldozer" approach.
If you didn't play a particular kind of campaign, or started playing WoD later rather than earlier, you probably didn't notice the effect the metaplot had. And I know some people liked the metaplot. I'm just saying why in my personal experience it left me very frustrated and bitter. I'm not saying everyone else did or should have had the same experience.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I wasn't a fan of the 'umbral shredder' myself, because, as you said, it limited the game. Plus it lead to more metaphysical headaches.
"Basically."
"Man, my Garou contact is going to be pissed."
"Eh, it doesn't affect him."
"Why not?"
"Um... He's more wolfie than human."
"Ah, so if I use spirit 4 to supress my maginess and make myself more wolfie, I'm fine."
"Um, no."
"What? Why not? How about if I use Spirit 4 Prime 3 to make my avatar super tough, so it laughs off the damage."
"um, that won't work either."
"Why not?"
"Well the stronger you make the avatar, the more damage it takes, yeah, that's it."
"Why?"
"Um... Because the shards are attracted to strong avatars."
"So I'll use Spirit and prime to make my avatar look week enough that it won't get noticed."
"It won't work."
"Why not?"
"Um... because the shards can see through stuff like that."
"^$%&$%&$$$^&*&( you and White Wolf, I'm going home."
A revision is one thing, the more I remember, they did to Mage what WotC did to the Realms.
Ok, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I wasn't a fan of the 'umbral shredder' myself, because, as you said, it limited the game. Plus it lead to more metaphysical headaches.
** spoiler omitted **
A revision is one thing, the more I remember, they did to Mage what WotC did to the Realms.
Exactly.
And when you're running a Mage campaign with a bunch of important Dreamspeaker NPCs and Garou in the background.....
Ok, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. I wasn't a fan of the 'umbral shredder' myself, because, as you said, it limited the game. Plus it lead to more metaphysical headaches.
** spoiler omitted **
A revision is one thing, the more I remember, they did to Mage what WotC did to the Realms.
Exactly.
And when you're running a Mage campaign with a bunch of important Dreamspeaker NPCs and Garou in the background.....
Then you just ignore that part of the metaplot. I ran pretty much every WoD game though every revision, and I never had problems with this type of thing. If what they did worked with what I was planning, I used it. If it didn't, I didn't.
I know I'm arguing against the wind here, and I can completely understand not enjoying the direction it goes which in turn stops you from buying the line (i.e. Mage Revised), but it just always blows my mind to hear people using the metaplot (or rules associated with it) when they didn't like it.Not trying to argumentative or a jerk, I'm just expressing my surprise.
oVampire = nVampire both suck
oWolf = nWolf both suck
oMage > nMage
nHunter >>> oHunter
nChangeling > oChangeling
Promethius > most everything else
Geist = best game ever
Also Exalted 1e and 2e are both terrible although Code Monkeys could pull off some kind of bizarro miracle and make a wicked awesome new edition of Exalted if they wanted to, I think. Infernals remains both the best book (everything after chapter 2) and the unquestionably worst book (Chapter 1 and 2 are just horrid and should've never been published)
Also ETHERITES 4 LYFE.
oVampire = nVampire both suck
oWolf = nWolf both suck
oMage > nMage
nHunter >>> oHunter
nChangeling > oChangeling
Promethius > most everything else
Geist = best game everAlso Exalted 1e and 2e are both terrible although Code Monkeys could pull off some kind of bizarro miracle and make a wicked awesome new edition of Exalted if they wanted to, I think. Infernals remains both the best book (everything after chapter 2) and the unquestionably worst book (Chapter 1 and 2 are just horrid and should've never been published)
heh. Rock on, though I pretty much disagree with this on every level. For instance, The Reckoning is far more interesting to me the The Vigil is. As a matter of fact, I think H:TV shouldn't even have even gotten its own line. It really was nothing more then a supplement for playing morals which they were handling quite well already in the general World of Darkness line.
oVampire = nVampire both suck
oWolf = nWolf both suck
oMage > nMage
nHunter >>> oHunter
nChangeling > oChangeling
Promethius > most everything else
Geist = best game ever
And taking the core nWoD book, all the supplements that are just labeled as WoD, and running a campaign where the characters are all made using those books and interact with and/or hunt all the other stuff is even more fun.
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And taking the core nWoD book, all the supplements that are just labeled as WoD, and running a campaign where the characters are all made using those books and interact with and/or hunt all the other stuff is even more fun.
With the WOD line you don't even have to open any of the Vamoire, Werewolf or Mage game books. You can do so much imo with just those books. Run a WOD Supernaturals game you can. X-files you can. I do find that playing a mortal in the NWOD is just so much more fun. In the OWOD you were pretty muxch outclassed by everything. You still are in NWOD yet not as badly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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With the WOD line you don't even have to open any of the Vamoire, Werewolf or Mage game books. You can do so much imo with just those books. Run a WOD Supernaturals game you can. X-files you can. I do find that playing a mortal in the NWOD is just so much more fun. In the OWOD you were pretty muxch outclassed by everything. You still are in NWOD yet not as badly.
And taking the core nWoD book, all the supplements that are just labeled as WoD, and running a campaign where the characters are all made using those books and interact with and/or hunt all the other stuff is even more fun.
The only thing I feel is missing from NWoD is a 'junior vampires' book. We have junior werewolves in Skinchangers, and junior Mages in the hedge magic books. a nice 'junior vampire' book, dealing with blood cults, not quite vampires and NWoD 'thin bloods' would be a nice completion.
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I think your generalizing when it comes to D&D players. Every rpg has those players. Do you think that somehow WOD as a ruleset makes it any different. Anyone with enough knowledge of the rules and a very lenienet GM/DM can optimise their characters with any rpg. While I undersntad the dislike for those who optimize I never understand those who seem to think that you should make a character less effective either. Why would I as a Fighter in D&D take anything but feats and the most powerful weapon. Sure I could take some Rogue skills to flesh him out yet if I am playing a Fighter who wears only medium to heavy armor tring to sneak around like a Rogue is going to be a liabilty. Or I could take some Fighter skills as a Wizard yet unless I build the character with decent strength again a liabilty imo. It's all good to say "don't min-max" yet D&D as a system does not reward you for doing so imo.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Given my personal experience (and others stories) of Werewolf being Werewolf: the Bloodbath, I find the comments of LazarX amusing.
(Note, I don't want this to degrade into a 'system war', I just think broad assumptions of player baes is mistaken. I also think there's a neat cosmology for W:tA, that gets burried behind "RARRRRRR! Furries smash Puny Wyrm!")
I enjoy D+D, but compared to White Wolf, Ars Magica, Amber, In Nominee and a lot of others, it's hardly a roleplaying game.
While this is hardly my experience, I agree that this is how WW games used to be perceived in their golden age: an 'elite' roleplaying games for the 'real' role-players. There was a lot of snobbing from WW players in regards to D&D players but in reality, there was just as much "my PC is much better than yours" and just as much immaturity...
In the meantime, our AD&D planescape games (not even 3E) where a lot more profound and involved a lot less fighting and explosion than the resident Werewolf and Mage games...
However, the one of the main White Wolf 'revolution' was to bring a social interaction system that works on par with the rest of the game mechanics. That DID encourage RP significantly since there was an in-game encouragement to talk with NPC rather than remove its head or blow him-up with a fireball. It didn't always worked, but it was a huge step-up in terms of game mechanics. Many of my Vampire PCs were not meant to participate in a fight, and it was well received by other players. THAT was new and fresh.
I don't know much about NWoD, but even with OWoD, we pick and chose what we wanted and left what we didn't like. Still today, I ear from my friends that are still playing that they kept many of the OWoD setting elements while enjoying the new mechanics which, from what I can ear, was a worthwhile re-edition.
'findel
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To be fair, those digs are deserved. D+D roleplaying compared to almost any system that came after it (excepting GURPS) is more ROLLplaying that roleplaying.
That's a function of players, not the game.
We had one group role-play the hell out of a game of Star Fleet Battles.
I've seen plenty of groups utterly fail to role-play groups of Garou, Kindred, etc. and focus entirely on combat munchkinry and mechanical effectiveness (Get of Fenris and Caitiff (pick my favorite three Disciplines, and no mechanical weakness? Yes please!) seem to be the two 'splats' that attract these WoD players like catnip).
And, even in the best of cases, some role-players are as bad as the worst roll-players, when their 'drama' takes over the entire game and they ruin it for everyone else. The argument that role-playing is somehow inherently superior to wargaming or fiddly mechanical game-play is, IMO, a fallacy.
Gamers, like everyone else in the world, love to factionalize, and the role-players vs. roll-players divide is just a symptom of that. Stick the last two gamer geeks in the world in a cave together, and we'll probably beat each other to death with sticks over whether Erin Grey is hotter than Jeri Ryan.