Unless the cleric was in a position where he had to use a Cleric's power the world would never know, and they still might not know unless everyone's knows what everyone's else's class feature's are from 1 to 20.
As long as he tried to hide it then no, they would not. But in the example given by VV the PC would be part of a sect that required you to have 2 per selected Domains.
Kinda hard to join something when ya can't meet the requirements the group have for it. It would be like trying to join says the master archer guild. They could simply say hit that target twice as fast as you can and if ya could not do it twice in one round ya simply are not fast enough.
And it gets even harder if say you are trained by that group. Not being able to master those 2 domains would make you a failure in the eyes of that sect.
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Soooooo returning to the issues of Psionics. I'm not a fan because every time I have seen them used in my home game's I have had a bad experience. Mostly due to players getting mixed up with them (ie leaving out certain things or thinking x does y) and the rules are just different enough so I don't know if the problem is the rule, the way the player has interpreted the rule or if the player is flat out cheating.
Am I the only one who is utterly lost what seeker and kirth is arguing about now?!?Go back and read my OotS link.
Can't you post it again? It's a new page after all :-D
What I don't get is why are people making things so hard for themselves? All this about refluffing and changing names and transparency and wanting magic feeling different (but not weird :-), just so you can add extra complexity into your game?
Good GMing has enough requirements that seeking to make it harder to do so seems redundant... And it's not as if D&D is the go-to game for interchangeable mechanics in any case.
Explaining a refluff is easy in the context of this thread, but when it comes to playing, the interaction of game rules versus refluff can hurt verisimilitude and SOD because the rules don't care about fluff.
So the GM has to work harder, and it gets worse as the levels go by and situations become more complicated.
Honestly, simplicity and minimalism has a lot going for it.
BTW, this is NOT a tirade against those who wish to do stuff like this - I'd almost certainly enjoy playing a game with someone who cares that much about things like this, and all my characters recently have had some changes to match what I want them to look and feel like.
All I'm thinking (and I'll be happily proved wrong) is that most groups are not this committed - certainly in the whole hobby, and even within the smaller community that makes up the PF MB posters...
Deva ju all over again.
Wow. didn't think you'd do it... :-)
Now, how to influence you to campaign on my behalf to Snorter that those Ranger rewrites are good for a 'normal' PF game? :-)
Soooooo returning to the issues of Psionics. I'm not a fan because every time I have seen them used in my home game's I have had a bad experience. Mostly due to players getting mixed up with them (ie leaving out certain things or thinking x does y) and the rules are just different enough so I don't know if the problem is the rule, the way the player has interpreted the rule or if the player is flat out cheating.
So you have bad (to cheat?) or forgetful (if they didn't mean to leave stuff out) players.
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Actually spellcraft not being allowed to ID manfesting does cause some issues. Not a real big major one...but not something you can just handwave away as irrelevant either. Once again, glad to see dreamscarred figured that out and using that for their system.
Except just saying, "Screw Psicraft, there's just Spellcraft," is a tweak so immensely small that it's completely and utterly dwarfed by the skill changes you already have to make just to get the game to work in the first place.
I'd go even further; let's get rid of Spellcraft.
Why is there a Knowledge skill for arcane magic, and a Knowledge skill for divine magic, and a non-Knowledge skill for 'magic'?
There seems to be no logic governing when either of those skills are called on in adventure write-ups.
Let's have KN (arcane), KN (divine) and Kn (psionic).
Why should casters be able to identify each others' area of expertise, if they never study it?
Yes, it means those wizards have to spend some skill points, but they have the Int to cover it, and they were already being taxed, by being forced to second-guess the writers' arbitary decisions.
Clerics and Druids, in my experience, only used to put a few ranks into Kn (religion) at low levels, to show willing, then promptly forget about it.
Eh I disagree. Ya can ignore skills all ya want in your game and have learned folks to foolish to add 2+2 if ya like, its your game after all. But You simply can not completely separate mechanics from in world knowledge, the game has simply tied them to closely.
Seeker, you keep handing NPCs notes on the metagame when it comes to casters, but you've never answered why the NPCs wouldn't know about things like hit points (in detail) and saving throws (in detail) and dice mechanics and that if a healthy cow falls off a sixty-foot cliff, it's at no risk of permanent injury, or that they don't notice that the greatest marksman in the world always has a 5% chance of missing the broad side of a barn from five feet away, or that lava isn't as deadly as it's made out to be?
Why would they know that two clerics happen to have different character classes (rather than simply different natural capabilities) but not all the other equally obvious quirks of game mechanics?
Now, will the NPCs notice that the Healer cleric of Glowy and the Warmage cleric of Glowy? Yes. One heals people, the other blows stuff up. But they're still both clerics of Glowy channeling the sun god's might to do his work. They just channel it in a different way. Neither is any less of a cleric of Glowy for it.
I did and agree with them. It just that for most including Jedi in a fanatsy world is strange. Not undoable and some may allow it just really weird. Jedi imo is synonymous with science fiction and not fanatsy.
Not remotely. There are already Jedi integrated into most standard fantasy worlds.
Jedi are, at their core, warrior/mages with a developed code of ethics, long-standing traditions, and ostensibly religious overtones. In other words, the default elven Eldritch Knight is a Jedi. Faerun has at least half a dozen Jedi orders running around. Kelemvor has one (his even has a PrC), Mystra has one, I believe Kossuth and Eilistraee both have one, Selune has a Jedi order with its own PrC, as does Shaundakul.
It's really hard to say Jedi don't fit when talking about a world that already has them in a variety of flavors and sizes.
VV, you'd likely have fun in my game -- certainly it would be interesting and informative to have you as a player, as it was when TOZ was able to join some of our sessions. Seeker would never play in my game, even if invited; it just wouldn't make sense to him, even if it does to us. Just as I wouldn't play in his game, because his idiosyncratic rules make no sense at all to me. But that's OK; the hobby's big enough for all of us.
Well, I had this idea for a gnome with a gundam...
As long as he tried to hide it then no, they would not. But in the example given by VV the PC would be part of a sect that required you to have 2 per selected Domains.
Kinda hard to join something when ya can't meet the requirements the group have for it. It would be like trying to join says the master archer guild. They could simply say hit that target twice as fast as you can and if ya could not do it twice in one round ya simply are not fast enough.
And it gets even harder if say you are trained by that group. Not being able to master those 2 domains would make you a failure in the eyes of that sect.
You're the one that put that pointless rule there in the first place! And the entire point is that you shouldn't have put it there, that it's disrespectful of player freedom and detracts from the world as a whole!
That Healer and that Warmage make wonderful clerics of Glowy, who contribute far more to making a robust and flavorful world than saying that every Cleric of Glowy is a tin can with a hit-people stick who hates/loves zombies and has next to no abilities remotely associated with their patron save a few domain spells per day. The player bringing the Warmage who's a part of the Most Heated Order of Glowy isn't ruining your world. You've already done that.
You keep claiming that all these hours of work as an excuse for your behavior, but if I spend a hundred hours making plans to steal your wallet, I still have no rights to your wallet. If one of your players goes home and spends a hundred hours detailing out a new continent, they have no right to foist it on you and say, "This continent is now a part of your world because I just spent a hundred hours making this continent for your world," yet that's exactly what you're doing when you say to your players, "If your character is a part of this organization, then they have this class and these class features, no negotiation, because I spent a hundred hours building your characters for you."
What I don't get is why are people making things so hard for themselves? All this about refluffing and changing names and transparency and wanting magic feeling different (but not weird :-), just so you can add extra complexity into your game?
Here's the thing; refluffing doesn't add extra complexity to the game because it isn't actually refluffing. It's just the normal creative process, just with the complicated arbitrary parts cut out.
I am creating a character, a priest of the sun god. I write up the priest, and then I ask myself, "What do I envision this priest doing?" I envision him calling down the wrath of her god to kill things with fire, so I ask myself, "What classes are good at killing things with fire?" Well, there's Kineticist, Warmage, some variations of Warlock, Wilder and Ardent, maybe, a Sorcerer with plenty of fire spells. So from that list, I choose Kineticist and emphasize my fire spells. There was no refluffing or increase in complexity, just the normal creation of fluff inherent to character-creation.
In contrast, if I'd said, "Well, my character's a priest, so I guess she has to be a Cleric," then things have just become complicated because the silly nonsense restrictions have come into conflict with my own visions of the character killing things with fire as her main shtick. I have to go digging for feats and abilities and prestige classes and multiclassing that plays up the "kill things with fire" aspect that the Cleric class is so sorely lacking in. I have to gather all these elements, bundle them up, and it's not until level 12 that I get the satisfactory representation of my character that Kineticist gave me at level 1.
Setting aside the canned fluff and just making a character with appropriate abilities is the simpler route by a large margin.
And that's not all that relevant, either. The DM above still has an "exciting, interesting" world, and also probably understands the concept of diminishing returns (and most likely has a life as well).Watch, as I seamlessly integrate every single magical subsystem into my game world simultaneously within minutes!
"Magic is weird. Magic is wondrous. Magic on the whole is incomprehensible and bizarre and many-faceted."
Done. Now, pact magic and incarnum and psionics and truespeech and shadow magic and Vancian all fit into the world for one simple reason; magic is magic. I have successfully and coherently incorporated every magic system that does and does not exist into my world.
etc etc etc
Uh... okay?
Well, I had this idea for a gnome with a gundam...
(Shudder.) I had to google "gundam," and now I'm sorry I did! You've managed to hit upon the one thing I do ban overly-overt displays of -- what I lump together as "Anime stuff" (not an accurate definition, but an idiosyncratic one that encompasses 15-foot swords, mechas, people with giant eyes with pie slices missing out of the irises). I ban it not because of the mechanics, or the game world, but just because I have a totally irrational but equally uncontrollable response to it that consists of intense annoyance. And I don't like to DM while agitated.
So you've found my achilles' heel after all.
Gnome with a Gundam = Summoner with a golem-themed eidolon.
That would work for me; ban lifted -- unless your gnome has pink hair! ;P
(Shudder.) I had to google "gundam," and now I'm sorry I did! You've managed to hit upon the one thing I do ban overly-overt displays of -- what I lump together as "Anime stuff" (not an accurate definition, but an idiosyncratic one that encompasses 15-foot swords, mechas, people with giant eyes with pie slices missing out of the irises). I ban it not because of the mechanics, or the game world, but just because I have a totally irrational but equally uncontrollable response to it that consists of intense annoyance. And I don't like to DM while agitated.
So you've found my achilles' heel after all.
Then how about zords? Battlemechs? Mecha aren't exactly Asia-specific; we have no shortage of exoframes and power armors and giant robots here in the west. And twelve-foot-tall robots aren't exactly foreign to D&D to begin with, what with the golems and all; it would just be a matter or riding them.
I've used one before as GM, in a more involved form, actually applying the Symbiotic template (with the appropriate LA)- the only minor tweak involved there was letting that template apply to a construct. This let the pilot bring her supernatural abilities and feats to bear while having the combination function as a single entity, as pilot and mech should.
Edit:
Gnome with a Gundam = Summoner with a golem-themed eidolon.That would work for me; ban lifted -- unless your gnome has pink hair! ;P
I thought gnomes had funky hair colors like blue and green by default.
I am creating a character, a priest of the sun god. I write up the priest, and then I ask myself, "What do I envision this priest doing?" I envision him calling down the wrath of her god to kill things with fire, so I ask myself, "What classes are good at killing things with fire?" Well, there's Kineticist, Warmage, some variations of Warlock, Wilder and Ardent, maybe, a Sorcerer with plenty of fire spells. So from that list, I choose Kineticist and emphasize my fire spells. There was no refluffing or increase in complexity, just the normal creation of fluff inherent to character-creation.
Yeah, I get what you're proposing. I'm not saying it isn't appropriate to build your character concept that way, but it is not assured that in-game it will throw up no complications, especially for the GM.
Is it divine, arcane, or something else? how does that question affect the character when choosing PrCs? Does the use of those powers provoke AoO? How is psionic focus used? Can you really use these without anyone knowing about it? How does that affect NPCs reactions and gameplay? Does the character keep on having to explain how he all this 'fire-power' that others of his faith do not? If not, why not? Does he need a holy symbol? If not, does that throw up other questions in game?
There are a mixture of straight rules questions along with interpreted flavour questions in there, but you see where I'm going. The Sorcerer would be less awkward, but still quite a few of those questions remain, along with others that being a Sorcerer throw up. It does become harder as soon as you integrate it into the campaign world.
A PC build is not in a vacuum, and as soon as he interacts with the world the things that mark him out as different mechanically will be exposed. Not much to begin with, but with increasing headaches as time goes by...
I thought gnomes had funky hair colors like blue and green by default.
Only recently, after Jason Bulmahn dyed them all.
Yeah, I get what you're proposing. I'm not saying it isn't appropriate to build your character concept that way, but it is not assured that in-game it will throw up no complications, especially for the GM.
Is it divine, arcane, or something else? how does that question affect the character when choosing PrCs? Does the use of those powers provoke AoO? How is psionic focus used? Can you really use these without anyone knowing about it? How does that affect NPCs reactions and gameplay? Does the character keep on having to explain how he all this 'fire-power' that others of his faith do not? If not, why not? Does he need a holy symbol? If not, does that throw up other questions in game?
There are a mixture of straight rules questions along with interpreted flavour questions in there, but you see where I'm going. The Sorcerer would be less awkward, but still quite a few of those questions remain, along with others that being a Sorcerer throw up. It does become harder as soon as you integrate it into the campaign world.
A PC build is not in a vacuum, and as soon as he interacts with the world the things that mark him out as different mechanically will be exposed. Not much to begin with, but with increasing headaches as time goes by...
Except those aren't problems. They're petty little quibbles that don't matter. It's not extra work inherent to the method; it's extra work you force upon yourself when it isn't needed.
In terms of rules, the Kineticist is a Kineticist, with all that goes along with it. They function in every way as normal. Psionic focus is the same thing it always was; focusing to gather power. Prestige qualifications work as they always have; you're a psionic manifester, go. Nothing needs to change. There are little things here and there that can change, but replacing the words "divine casting" with "psionic manifesting" in a great many PrCs is no big deal, if deemed appropriate, assuming the character doesn't just single-class all the way through, and it's something that need only be done once, maybe twice, ever. Or not. It's really quite petty.
NPCs react as NPCs react; this is a priest who kills people with fire. React appropriately. There is zero extra work there, since you always have to manage NPC reactions to PCs anyways. If it's a burden to figure out how NPCs would react to Mother Burnination, you've got other DMing issues to clear up first.
Why would there need to be any additional explanation for the fire power? It's a divinely inspired gift. And why wouldn't others of her faith not have it? It's certainly a perfectly sensible form for them to take, even if it's only a portion of the sect. Why would it have been a given that they would all be Clerics in the first place? Why would anyone see it as odd for a priest of the sun god to kill things with fire? But all that's already a part of the character fluff that was written in the first place, so asking about it again is just double dipping on things that were already solved.
You're getting all worked up, actively trying to make things hard when it's really quite simple. You're bringing the entire normal process of making and running characters- things like, "How does this character fit in the world?" and "How would people people react to this person?"- things that you must do regardless of method, and then speaking as if they're unique challenges of the method.
Seeker, you keep handing NPCs notes on the metagame when it comes to casters, but you've never answered why the NPCs wouldn't know about things like hit points (in detail) and saving throws (in detail) and dice mechanics and that if a healthy cow falls off a sixty-foot cliff, it's at no risk of permanent injury, or that they don't notice that the greatest marksman in the world always has a 5% chance of missing the broad side of a barn from five feet away, or that lava isn't as deadly as it's made out to be?
Yes they know something about HP, they do not call them HP, but when joe farmed who has 3 hp, gets stabs and dies or bleeds out, they do notice he bleed out. The 5% chance of miss, yeah its called bad luck. Game mechanics are NOT invisible. They are just a way to represent things in game.
I have not given NPC notes on spellcaster, the skill system and a thing called common sense did that. Oh look "father Bob does not use the same style as father Joe, nor can he call upon his god in the same way, he can't mass heal it is said"
Really, its not hard to spot a "fake". Unless your NPCs have never saw another and are so ignorant they believe everything.
You're the one that put that pointless rule there in the first place! And the entire point is that you shouldn't have put it there, that it's disrespectful of player freedom and detracts from the world as a whole!
No the Order of the glowy was all you. I just asked why they would not require that after all real world group require you to have x skill or x knowledge before being allowed to join.
If your order is an order of healers dedicated to the magical arts of healing, then if your character has no ablity to heal by magic it is unreasonable to expect the order to allow him in and act like he has an ablity he clearly does not have. If your PC is "trained" by an order of knights yet has no skill with martial weapons or heavy armor and can not ride a horse, then it is not believable that he is allowed to be in that order. If it is decreed by the Order of the Glowy that you must possess the magical skill that come from those 2 domains then you simply must have those ablitys.
None of that is unreasonable.I find an well organized order who does not have requirements to be unbelievable.
I zap seeker with electricity. What class am I?
A monk with a +1 shock light mace. Oh, wait, that would be Trog...
Yes they know something about HP, they do not call them HP, but when joe farmed who has 3 hp, gets stabs and dies or bleeds out, they do notice he bleed out. The 5% chance of miss, yeah its called bad luck. Game mechanics are NOT invisible. They are just a way to represent things in game.
...
The world's greatest marksman misses the broad side of a barn at point blank range on a consistent, measurable, irreducible rate and you handwave that as "bad luck?" If you're capable of handwaves of such magnitude, then you ought to have no trouble with anything.
The rules are a framework, an abstraction, a crude metagame viewscreen into the world, not the absolute laws of reality.
I have not given NPC notes on spellcaster, the skill system and a thing called common sense did that. Oh look "father Bob does not use the same style as father Joe, nor can he call upon his god in the same way, he can't mass heal it is said"
Really, its not hard to spot a "fake". Unless your NPCs have never saw another and are so ignorant they believe everything.
You logic may as well be, "Doctor Snyder could do heart surgery. This guy calling himself Doctor Wallace can't. Therefore, clearly, Doctor Wallace must be lying and must be a fake."
Why is it that the Warmage cleric of Glowy is the fake, when he's the one who's best able to call on the sun god's might to burn people to a crisp? What makes "tin can with this exact spell loadout" more "real" than the Warmage cleric's suite? How does it make sense for the neutral sun god to grant half his "real" followers the ability to control zombies and the other half the ability to destroy them when Glowy has nothing to do with zombies? What does it contribute to the world to declare such an exact and nonsensical mishmash of abilities as the specific Cleric class as the requirements of being a cleric of the sun god when it has nothing to do with anything remotely related to the sun god? Differences don't make someone a fake.
Between the guy who burns heathens to ash and the guy who has a bunch of pet zombies, I'd say Mister Zombie is the fake priest of the sun god.
No the Order of the glowy was all you. I just asked why they would not require that after all real world group require you to have x skill or x knowledge before being allowed to join.
And I explicitly stated that "Must be a Cleric with the Fire and Sun domains" was a stupid requirement that contributes nothing, makes no sense, and steps on players toes. You're the one who put it back.
And while having requirements like "two ranks in such and such a skill" is one (unnecessary) thing, defining a player's build outright as a prereq is another entirely.
If your order is an order of healers dedicated to the magical arts of healing, then if your character has no ablity to heal by magic it is unreasonable to expect the order to allow him in and act like he has an ablity he clearly does not have. If your PC is "trained" by an order of knights yet has no skill with martial weapons or heavy armor and can not ride a horse, then it is not believable that he is allowed to be in that order. If it is decreed by the Order of the Glowy that you must possess the magical skill that come from those 2 domains then you simply must have those ablitys.
None of that is unreasonable.I find an well organized order who does not have requirements to be unbelievable.
You speak as if the Warmage of Glowy's class was chosen out of a hat for no reason. Rather, the "I kill people with fire" class makes sense for a cleric of a massive ball of fire flying in the air. The choice was made with respect to the character and the nature of the organization.
An organization may have requirements, but they must be requirements that actually make sense. The only real way for them to make sense is by being real, solid, in-game requirements rather than meta requirements. For that order of healers, it doesn't make sense to declare, "You must be a Cleric with the Healing domain," to join. That's stupidly specific and contributes nothing to the organization. However, it may have a requirement like, "You must have magical healing abilities." That's a clear in-world (as in non-meta) concept and a requirement that makes sense for an order of healers.
It's also a requirement that can easily be met by a Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin, Ranger, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, Favored Soul, Healer, Dragon Shaman, Binder, Truenamer, Archivist, Factotum, Crusader, Adept, an Artificer who makes healing wands/items, anyone with healing items, any psionic character with Empathic Transfer, any arcane caster with Arcane Disciple: Healing, and anyone with a Constitution score over 13 who takes Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments, anyone tremendously good who takes Stigmata, and anyone who uses Martial Study/Stance to pick up some Devoted Spirit abilities, among others. And that's fine; all of them can heal, any of them can reasonably fit within the scope of an order of healers.
It does not make sense for the requirements in the Most Heated Order of Glowy to be "Cleric with the Sun and Fire domains." However, it may make sense if all members are required to have the abilities to heal people and burn people with magic. Fair enough. The Warmage takes Arcane Disciple: Healing or Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments or Stigmata to gain healing abilities and already has fire. Yes, he's better at burning people than healing them, but so what? An oncologist is better at treating cancer than treating a broken knee despite still being a doctor.
Meanwhile, the Healer cleric of Glowy who's already very good at healing people takes Shape Soulmeld: Mantle of Flames, which allows her to wreathe herself in the sun god's flames to punish those who would harm her. She is a gentle soul who uses her god's flames to protect rather than attack, and who nurtures those around her. Spectacular.
These requirements can also be met by a Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Favored Soul, Druid, Adept, any arcane caster with Arcane Disciple: Healing and/or Fire, anyone who takes Shape Soulmeld: Lifebond Vestments and/or Shape Soulmeld: Mantle of Flames (including a 1HD Commoner with those two feats)...
These are requirements that actually make sense within the context of the organization, that aren't meta, that preserve the integrity of the world while still respecting player freedom.
Vetta I am just gonna say I disagree with ya. There really is not point and going back and forth on the same item when neither of us is gonna change our minds
You think having requirements is punishing players, I think it is unbelievable to not have requirements.
I zap seeker with electricity. What class am I?
Common sense narrows it down first. DID you use your hand? Hit with a weapon, use gestures or odd words before? Clutch a holy symbolical?
The skill rolls tell the rest. You simply can not hid it to everyone, unless the GM decides the rules do not work as written.
You think having requirements is punishing players, I think it is unbelievable to not have requirements.
... Did you even read anything I just said?
You think having requirements is punishing players, I think it is unbelievable to not have requirements.
What domains do I need to become a Catholic priest?
Or an Islamic Imam?
or a Jewish Rabbi?
Nothing wrong with requirements, so long as they're fluff requirements. Metagamed requirements are the problem.
Alternately: if a peasant goes to a church and is healed by someone, how does he know if he was healed by an oracle, a bard, or a cleric?
Nothing wrong with requirements, so long as they're fluff requirements. Metagamed requirements are the problem.
I disagree, fluff would be "you must be red headed or raised in los village" or the like
But I do not see a single thing wrong with
The order of the scared hand: This order of healers requires all who join its ranks to be capable of casting healing spells,have knowledge of the healing art and have a god granted power to heal with a touch
Order of the Black bow: This order of hunters are renown for both the speed of their fire but also the skill at tracking. Anyone of this order must be able to strike a target twice in short order and must be skilled at tracking.
Both orders to me seem in line with how orders and guilds really worked. Sure ya will have some which are not as strict, but you will have some that are even more so. Paladin orders for exampled are only made up of paladins. While orders of holy warroirs could include anyone of that faith.
Just because you have one type or order does not exclude having other types. There is simply nothing wrong with having such orders and they are very easy to maintain and root out "failures and fakes"
Also pro, not wanting to bring real world religions in this as they have zero clerics, however in game priests of those type would Require knowledge skills, you must have them in fact.
I don't know much about the other two, but I am pretty sure the catholic church would care what ya was, a cleric and a spell less priest would not be given the same rank or title. And from history we can see would not be part of the same order.
As I have said before, cleric was a bad name for a class because it takes the name out of general use for most worlds. Just like ya can't call any arcane caster a wizard without other wizards calling him a fake or worse.
Slightly related note here: I do find the idea that a temple or church is made up of mainly if not totally by clerics just ridiculous. Most priests would be experts, then ya would have some adapts. Clerics are warroirs not teachers and not preachers or care takers, not with all that combat training and lack of ya know skills.
I disagree, fluff would be "you must be red headed or raised in los village" or the like
Uh, no. Fluff would be "You worship the proper god and perhaps have a few ranks in religion to show understading in the holy tenants."
But I do not see a single thing wrong with
The order of the scared hand: This order of healers requires all who join its ranks to be capable of casting healing spells,have knowledge of the healing art and have a god granted power to heal with a touch
"God-granted" is the catch there. How do people know what is and isn't god granted? But even without that, your order is still open to divine bards, clerics, oracles, favored souls, paladins, and healers. That's a far cry from "You must be a cleric with these two specific domains"
Order of the Black bow: This order of hunters are renown for both the speed of their fire but also the skill at tracking. Anyone of this order must be able to strike a target twice in short order and must be skilled at tracking.
Again, this could be anyone with points in survival and Rapid Shot. Another far cry from "Must be the cleric cast with these two domains." This order could except very literally any class.
As I have said before, cleric was a bad name for a class because it takes the name out of general use for most worlds. Just like ya can't call any arcane caster a wizard without other wizards calling him a fake or worse.
Ok, answer me this.
A sorcerer casts fireball.
A wizard who took Eschew Materials casts fireball.
How does a second wizard tell the difference between the two?
Slightly related note here: I do find the idea that a temple or church is made up of mainly if not totally by clerics just ridiculous. Most priests would be experts, then ya would have some adapts. Clerics are warroirs not teachers and not preachers or care takers, not with all that combat training and lack of ya know skills.
How can a cleric be a warrior, a WARRIOR IS A DIFFERENT CLASS! By your own rules you're not allowed to describe them as such.
Slightly related note here: I do find the idea that a temple or church is made up of mainly if not totally by clerics just ridiculous. Most priests would be experts, then ya would have some adapts. Clerics are warroirs not teachers and not preachers or care takers, not with all that combat training and lack of ya know skills.How can a cleric be a warrior, a WARRIOR IS A DIFFERENT CLASS! By your own rules you're not allowed to describe them as such.
Which is another issues with just calling anyone warroirs. Nice to see you spotted that.
"God-granted" is the catch there. How do people know what is and isn't god granted? But even without that, your order is still open to divine bards, clerics, oracles, favored souls, paladins, and healers. That's a far cry from "You must be a cleric with these two specific domains"
It requires 1: ability to cast a heal spell. 2: The heal skill and 3: the healing domain. which limits whats it allowed but does not force ya to be just a cleric. It does force you to be able to pull all three of those off however.
However there would be nothing wrong with making you have 2 domains.
Again, this could be anyone with points in survival and Rapid Shot. Another far cry from "Must be the cleric cast with these two domains." This order could except very literally any class.
But again it is required to have 2 ability. Both the skill and the feat. I can see your disagree with 1 example not the concept of requirements it seems. An example I'll point out that was not mine anyhow.
Ok, answer me this.A sorcerer casts fireball.
A wizard who took Eschew Materials casts fireball.
How does a second wizard tell the difference between the two?
When the first can't produce a spell book and does not prepare his spells in the morning. I am not saying you always auto tell every time. What I am saying is you can't hide it.
The sorcerer is lying and a fake and will be found out the longer he try to pass himself off as a wizard.
I disagree, fluff would be "you must be red headed or raised in los village" or the like
But I do not see a single thing wrong with
The order of the scared hand: This order of healers requires all who join its ranks to be capable of casting healing spells,have knowledge of the healing art and have a god granted power to heal with a touch
*Looks at her last extensive post.*
*Headdesk.*
You really aren't reading a word I write.
Which is another issues with just calling anyone warroirs. Nice to see you spotted that.
The point was that your rules are baseless and ridiculous, not a correction.
Your notion that naming a class X removes X from the game vocabulary is ridiculous and outright refuted by the game itself. It cannot be a rule of the game.
From the PHB:
"Barbarian: A ferocious warrior who uses fury and instinct to
bring down foes.
Cleric: A master of divine magic and a capable warrior as well.
Fighter: A warrior with exceptional combat capability and unequaled skill with weapons.
Ranger: A cunning, skilled warrior of the wilderness.
Rogue: A tricky, skillful scout and spy who wins the battle by stealth rather than brute force."
How can these characters be warriors and scouts when none of them are Warriors or Scouts? You're pulling a rule from nowhere that has no basis and outright contradicts the rules you claim it comes from.
Which is the issues with naming classes common things. Ya can disagree with it all ya want but class names are more or less dead for general unless you house rule it.
Ya can rune your games any way ya like, it does not change the fact what when cleric is written it is Always talking about the cleric class and not about a expert who class himself a cleric.
I am not the one confused here, but you seem to be.
It requires 1: ability to cast a heal spell. 2: The heal skill and 3: the healing domain. which limits whats it allowed but does not force ya to be just a cleric. It does force you to be able to pull all three of those off however.
Whoah, whoah, whoah. How in the world did you go from "god granted power to heal with a touch" to "Must have the Healing domain?" That doesn't even make any sense. The Divine Bard has the god-granted ability to heal with a touch by default. The Druid has the god-granted ability to heal with a touch if they gain their powers from a deity. The Healer has the god-granted ability to heal with a touch if they gain their powers from a deity. Anyone who takes Stigmata has the god-granted power to heal with a touch. Any arcane caster with Arcane Disciple: Healing has the god-granted ability to heal with a touch.
Where are you pulling the Healing Domain from? You're contradicting yourself by requiring it and forcing unnecessary restrictions that contribute nothing by including it.
Which is the issues with naming classes common things. Ya can disagree with it all ya want but class names are more or less dead for general unless you house rule it.
*Headdesk.*
They can't be dead! The default rules use class names under their dictionary definition freely! You're calling the rules as written houserules!
The rules explicitly, undeniably state, "Fighters are warriors." Therefore, Fighters are warriors. That is not a houserule. That is codified fact. There is nothing at all, anywhere that says nor implies that Fighters cannot be warriors without the Warrior class just because there happens to be a class by that name.
Where the Hell are you pulling that ridiculous non-rule from? I've given you page 21 of the PHB that directly refutes you. Give me a single citation that even suggests that your ridiculous non-rule carries any weight at all.
I dont see a Divine bard in the core books do you? Heal with a touch is the granted power of the healing domain,And I find it ironic you accuse me of disrespecting players but change names to class of foes what totally changes how they react.
Class names in the game are dead, which is why I often change some and I Inform player I changed them. when players hear "A dozen barbarians are charging at you" what they hear is "A dozen barbarians class are running at you.
When you say "cleric" they don't hear priest they hear "a cleric class" when you say wizard they are expecting a wizard not a psion.
Maybe your players don't mind your screwing with em, most however do mind. The game has hard wired you to expect things when you say some words, If I call something a goblin they expect a goblin not an ogre. Class names are the very same thing. If I call something by a class name they react to that name, for good or ill.
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I always hated psionics because they were used to break game rules in the magic system. You had psionic powers that could counter magic but no magic powers that could counter psionics. It would be like divine magic being able to counter arcane magic but not arcane magic being unable to counter divine. Totally lame.
The second reason is because many DM's would completely miss the point of psionics and create their own version of psionic powers and ignore the rules. I remember a psionic power that was supposed to slow down velocity of ranged or meele weapons. I think it was called an inertia barrier. The game effect was a -2 to hit. No big deal. The DM ruled that since the barrier was affecting the attack the damage should also be affected and he halved the damage. It may make sense in a physics class but it completely destroyed game balance since that was a relatively low power.
Plus psionics seem to be overused. It seems that you can spam psionic powers much more often than spells which lends to a whole lot of abuses and most psionics had hit points, armor and weapon proficiencies similar to rogues and clerics but had the firepower of sorcerers.
Talek & Luna,, you talking 2e here? It sounds like 2e not 3.5 psionics. But yeah randomly giving powers extra things they don't have is not a great idea.
Heal with a touch is the granted power of the healing domain,And I find it ironic you accuse me of disrespecting players but change names to class of foes what totally changes how they react.
The granted ability of the Healing Domain is +1CL with healing spells.
What's more, how can anything be more "heal with a touch" than actually being able to heal with a touch, which Bards and Paladins and anyone with Stigmata or Lifebond Vestments can already do. What makes one specific healing touch ability from a completely different system so special that it automatically invalidates no fewer than six completely different god-granted healing touches from qualifying as healing touches?
Class names in the game are dead, which is why I often change some and I Inform player I changed them. when players hear "A dozen barbarians are charging at you" what they hear is "A dozen barbarians class are running at you.
There is no page "my players are idiots" in any book in the entire 3.5 library. Try again and give me a real page number for that "class names are dead" rule of yours.
I always hated psionics because they were used to break game rules in the magic system. You had psionic powers that could counter magic but no magic powers that could counter psionics. It would be like divine magic being able to counter arcane magic but not arcane magic being unable to counter divine. Totally lame.
The second reason is because many DM's would completely miss the point of psionics and create their own version of psionic powers and ignore the rules. I remember a psionic power that was supposed to slow down velocity of ranged or meele weapons. I think it was called an inertia barrier. The game effect was a -2 to hit. No big deal. The DM ruled that since the barrier was affecting the attack the damage should also be affected and he halved the damage. It may make sense in a physics class but it completely destroyed game balance since that was a relatively low power.
Plus psionics seem to be overused. It seems that you can spam psionic powers much more often than spells which lends to a whole lot of abuses and most psionics had hit points, armor and weapon proficiencies similar to rogues and clerics but had the firepower of sorcerers.
That's... categorically false.
The Psion has the squishy Wizard frame (except maybe with simple weapons, but anyone who cares is probably gonna get martial weapons through feats or multiclassing anyways), the Wilder is pretty much the Battle Sorcerer with fewer hit points, worse proficiencies, and even fewer spells, bad houserules have nothing to do with the existing system, and all anti-magic countermeasures apply fully to psionics as a part of the psionic/magic transparency rules, Psion stamina falls somewhere between Wizard and Sorcerer if you play the numbers out and if you have a Psion going full blast at all times, they're going to run out of power points fast.
I dont see a Divine bard in the core books do you? Heal with a touch is the granted power of the healing domain,And I find it ironic you accuse me of disrespecting players but change names to class of foes what totally changes how they react.
All healing spells have Range: Touch. All healing spells heal with a touch.
Class names in the game are dead, which is why I often change some and I Inform player I changed them. when players hear "A dozen barbarians are charging at you" what they hear is "A dozen barbarians class are running at you.
I've never had an issue where I tell players "barbarians attack you" and they think it's the class.
Perhaps because I don't metagame everything in my setting, hmmmm?
When you say "cleric" they don't hear priest they hear "a cleric class" when you say wizard they are expecting a wizard not a psion.
Which is precisely why setting a psion on them makes things so fun and interesting. It's magic. It's supposed to be weird and unconventional. That's why it's magic!
Maybe your players don't mind your screwing with em, most however do mind. The game has hard wired you to expect things when you say some words, If I call something a goblin they expect a goblin not an ogre. Class names are the very same thing. If I call something by a class name they react to that name, for good or ill.
Class names are not the samething, and I'm not sure if this very distinctly unique problem is due to bad players, or because you're TRAINING them to view things as metagamed as possible.
I always hated psionics because they were used to break game rules in the magic system. You had psionic powers that could counter magic but no magic powers that could counter psionics. It would be like divine magic being able to counter arcane magic but not arcane magic being unable to counter divine. Totally lame.
That's not how psionics works.
Plus psionics seem to be overused. It seems that you can spam psionic powers much more often than spells which lends to a whole lot of abuses and most psionics had hit points, armor and weapon proficiencies similar to rogues and clerics but had the firepower of sorcerers.
How it seems and what actually happens are not the same. Incidentally, how on earth do psionics have the same proficiencies or HP as rogues or clerics? They have the same proficiencies as wizards.
Wait, are you refering to, like, 2e psionics? Hey look at that, my initial theory was correct.
The granted ability of the Healing Domain is +1CL with healing spells.
You need to read your core book.
Rebuke Death (Sp): You can touch a living creature as a standard action, healing it for 1d4 points of damage plus 1 for every two cleric levels you possess. You can only use this ability on a creature that is below 0 hit points. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.[/QUOTE}
All healing spells have Range: Touch. All healing spells heal with a touch.
Yep healing spell was number 1, not number 3, if ya cant pass all three then you do not meet the requirements. It really is not that hard to understand is it?
Yep healing spell was number 1, not number 3, if ya cant pass all three then you do not meet the requirements. It really is not that hard to understand is it?
All healing spells have Range: Touch. All healing spells heal with a touch.
Yes it is.
Give me a non-metagame reason they need that domain.
You need to read your core book.
Like I said. One specific healing touch ability from a completely different system.
And you still haven't explained how that ability would invalidate the other six or more god-granted healing touches from being god-granted healing touches.
Yep healing spell was number 1, not number 3, if ya cant pass all three then you do not meet the requirements. It really is not that hard to understand is it?
It's a god-granted healing touch. It meets all stated criterion for number 1 and number 3.
A Divine Bard with ranks in Heal has the Heal Spell, can cast healing spells, and can heal with a touch (a god-granted ability). She meets all listed criteria. Why are you stonewalling her?
I don't like psionics because they shot my Pa.